Do Wales have the psychological edge over this England team?

First topic message reminder :

Although England clearly have the better players, does last year's mauling at the hands of Steve Welsh and the Welsh team give them a distinct edge going in to next week's encounter?
It may be universally accepted that Steve Walsh had a huge hand in the result, but the scars of that defeat must run deep. Or perhaps has Ireland's battering of Wales and then their subsequent loss to England redressed this imbalance?

MissBlennerhassett wrote:Although England clearly have the better players, does last year's mauling at the hands of Steve Welsh and the Welsh team give them a distinct edge going in to next week's encounter?
It may be universally accepted that Steve Walsh had a huge hand in the result, but the scars of that defeat must run deep. Or perhaps has Ireland's battering of Wales and then their subsequent loss to England redressed this imbalance?

Well that's it then, guys England Clearly have the better players so we might as well not just turn up.

Just for clarification on your post MissBlenner why is each English player better than their opposite numbers? Just wondering that's all

I see Englandglory's cunning ploy: Using his scale as implied by you, Wales' chances go from slim to fat. So they can't win! 

So an England win is a certainty!  

I don't think they have a psychological edge over England any more than Ireland have a psychological edge over Wales after two wins in the last two Six Nations.

Lancaster's England has so far failed to beat two major teams: Wales and South Africa (we haven't played Samoa). South Africa have the longer unbeaten run against us - it's turning into one of the longest any team has had against England. Nevertheless, we've been more competitive in the last two matches than the first two tour matches.

Against Wales, our standard dropped sharply. We gave them a closer run in 2012 than 2013. If we do lose at Twickenham in two weeks, then it might turn into a problem, not least because it's a dry run for the World Cup group match.

Cowshot wrote:I see Englandglory's cunning ploy: Using his scale as implied by you, Wales' chances go from slim to fat. So they can't win! 

So an England win is a certainty!  

both are possible...

wales are already fat while their chances remain slim.

I tell you what I like this Mike Brown guy and his coach.... they epitomise the English setup.

He does the basics first and foremost and he does them really well, then when he gets the chance he brings in that two inches on top of his bonce when his skill set and confident play comes to the fore. But its off the field that he really impresses, gracious when praised and always gives the credit to the industry his forwards and the support of his backs.

Lancaster quietly replies with the right words....... appreciates the quality of opposition but never gives the impression he has anything but sheer confidence in his players.

I think next week the performance of this two vital cogs in the 6Ns so far, will see the psychological pendulum swing back to the white jersey

Miss BH is a bit of a WUM.
She/ he manages to drop a couple of rocks into the Angla Welsh mill pond, then watches for bites from both species.
Just letting you all know before you nibble too much.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

beshocked wrote:missblennerhassett I don't blame Walsh. I blame Lancaster for picking Brown on the wing, Wood at no 8 and Croft who had just come back from a long injury layoff at 6.

England struggled at the breakdown because of this and Brown was horribly exposed defensively twice. Just look at the two Welsh tries - Welsh backrowers and Cuthbert involved.

Plus of course England were in pretty poor form at the time.

Poor form going for the GS...................yeah right!

I think "Miss" needs to keep off the sherry when attempting to watch a game of rugger.

England fell apart when Wales brought on three players, notably Ken Owens and Justin Tipuric. Owens stole ball at the breakdown, steadied the front row and Tips speed around the breakdown made a massive difference. These two were involved in nearly all the second half points for Wales.

The ref had little contribution to Wales tearing apart England on the day and lets be honest the score could have been much higher

Have any of this England side ever beaten Wales at senior International level?

Welshmushroom wrote:

beshocked wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Plus of course England were in pretty poor form at the time.

Poor form going for the GS...................yeah right!

I am trying to avoid posting on anything non-AP related, but have to jump in here. Do not ever mistake form for results. England played well against Scotland and Ireland - different types of performances but both good. They were poor against France and dire against Italy. A season that had started with fizz had descended into stodge by the last match. So yes our form was poor by then. (similar to Leicester this month, playing badly but winning - eventually it catches up with you)

Well said.  

I would say England are in a much better place than last year. Okay 13-10 vs Ireland isn't the most exciting scorelines but with defences on top with two relatively evenly matched sides a close match was not surprising.

Frustating that England lost to France because the GS would have been there for the taking.

Having watched the game as a neutral I have to say that even though England played well in the last 20, I actually thought Ireland should have won the game in the opening 20 of the second half.  So while I think England played well for the win, part of me also thinks Ireland threw this game away (similarly to how the England where the better side against France and lost).

Thats just my neutral viewpoint.

Personally I thought that England left a lot more points out there than Ireland. May personally butchered two tries, we turned down kicks and Farrell missed a kick and butchered overlaps. If we'd lost it would have been like France all over again.

I also get the feeling that the O'Connell hold on Launchbury to make room for Kearney's try would have got a lot more airtime on here if it had been the other way around. Arguable whether it made the difference, but still questionable.

That's not to say that we were well on top or anything, but England wasted more chances than Ireland did and still won.

who cares. they've recently beaten Aus, NZ, drawn with SA, and beaten every other NH side.

and on sunday they'll be able to add Wales to the list

Taffineastbourne wrote:Have any of this England side ever beaten Wales at senior International level?

Hartley, Care, Wilson and Wood.

OP Question.

A: 'no'

Taffineastbourne wrote:Have any of this England side ever beaten Wales at senior International level?

Of the 15:

Hartley, Wilson, Wood and Care have beaten them more than once each.

Vunipola, May, Twelvetrees, Burrell and Nowell have never even played (or at least in Twelvetrees' case started) against them. Wales have never beaten them either.

Brown started against them once out of position and is now the form full back in the Northern Hemisphere.

Marler, Lawes, Robshaw and Farrell have played/started against them twice but all improved hugely since the last time.

So, of the whole England squad, just 4 have, once

it's irrelevant. you could equally plausibly argue that having lost against wales will make players far more hungry for victory.

all sophistry.

How many England players in this side were involved in last year's record defeat?Psychological scarring?

gregortree wrote:Miss BH is a bit of a WUM.
She/ he  manages to drop a couple of rocks into the Angla Welsh mill pond, then watches for bites from both species.
Just letting you all know before you nibble too much.

Who do you think you are? Some sort cyber warrior protecting the naive and innocent from cyber attack?

This patronising poster seems to label anyone a WUM who doesn't agree with him. Just letting you all know  

this thread is now officially boring. same tired irrelevant arguments that could equally validly be turned completely around to try to prove the exact opposite. s'like watching paint dry on a rainy day.

Just for the record, Miss Blennerhassett is the only named female character in the film Withnail and I. For that reason alone worthy of some note. But, no I'm a 46 year old, reasonably grisly former back rower. Used to post a lot on the old 606 and only came across you lot of late.

Comfort wrote:So, of the whole England squad, just 4 have, once  

Twice

quinsforever wrote:this thread is now officially boring. same tired irrelevant arguments that could equally validly be turned completely around to try to prove the exact opposite. s'like watching paint dry on a rainy day.

Genuinely hope they don't have an edge quins. If they win well, I'll have to conclude they do as they are not a better side - only time will tell.

Comfort wrote:So, of the whole England squad, just 4 have, once  

Twice and, as I explained, the rest have barely ever played against them, if at all. Almost no-one in the England side played Six Nations before 2011.

wales always raise their game against england. still dont think that contributes an edge, as i am 100% certain the Eng players truly believe they can win. that's not to say the result is a certainty, but any team that has thrashed NZ is not going to be scared of Wales.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

quinsforever wrote:this thread is now officially boring. same tired irrelevant arguments that could equally validly be turned completely around to try to prove the exact opposite. s'like watching paint dry on a rainy day.

Genuinely hope they don't have an edge quins. If they win well, I'll have to conclude they do as they are not a better side - only time will tell.

Miss Wind Up par excellence aka Miss BH.

So who in your very experienced opinion are the better English players?

I don't think England go in for this 'psychological scarring' thing.

They might get beaten (well beaten in terms of last year against Wales) but they don't really do the whole emotional hand-wringing like some nations.

quinsforever wrote:wales always raise their game against england. still dont think that contributes an edge, as i am 100% certain the Eng players truly believe they can win. that's not to say the result is a certainty, but any team that has thrashed NZ is not going to be scared of Wales.

 

Unfortunately I think this falls into the same trap as the comment about England players not having beaten Wales. The lineups were so different. That England team started with Corbs, Youngs, Cole, Parling, Morgan, Youngs, Barritt, Tuilagi, Ashton and Goode, none of whom will start against Wales this time (assuming Vunipola makes it)

Comfort wrote:So, of the whole England squad, just 4 have, once  

Not that I'd recommend it, but you could conjure an England team from current players who have all beaten Wales

Cole/Wilson/Stevens/Sheridan
Hartley
Borthwick/Deacon/Shaw/Botha/Palmer
Haskell/Armitage/Wood/Croft/Easter
Care/Youngs/Wigglesworth
Flood/Hodgson/Wilkinson
Tuilagi/Banahan/Tait/Tindall/Hipkiss/Armitage/Monye/Cueto/Foden

You can't do that for South Africa. The only players still active who have played in a winning team against the Boks are

Wilkinson, Cueto, Tindall, Borthwick, Sheridan, Andy Goode, Tait, Palmer and Hodgson. Oh, and Phil Vickery, of course.

Something of a pointless exercise, but it helped pass the time.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

gregortree wrote:Miss BH is a bit of a WUM.
She/ he  manages to drop a couple of rocks into the Angla Welsh mill pond, then watches for bites from both species.
Just letting you all know before you nibble too much.

Who do you think you are? Some sort cyber warrior protecting the naive and innocent from cyber attack?

This patronising poster seems to label anyone a WUM who doesn't agree with him. Just letting you all know  

Good point Miss, I guess 606ers are not naive and innocent enough to take the rather obvious baits floating along the first line of the OP.

Hmmm, who is this MissBlennerhassett?

I'm getting suspicious.

I bet she doesn't even work in a Penrith tea room.

Fine Cumbrian family Cyril, I suspect with a NZ branch.

gregortree wrote:Fine Cumbrian family Cyril, I suspect with a NZ branch.

You could be right there greg.

On the internet nobody knows you're llama.

Comfort wrote:On the internet nobody knows you're llamas.

There Comfort, edited to cover a few possibilities.

I shall phone the police and tell them there are a couple of drunks on the forum

a couple of drunk llamas!

GT   

well Miss, that is the first step, to acknowledge one's drinking problem.
But try AA before the police.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:I shall phone the police and tell them there are a couple of drunks on the forum

Seeing as your back do you mind answering my question from earlier. Not trying to avoid it are you?

Jhamer25 wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:I shall phone the police and tell them there are a couple of drunks on the forum

Seeing as your back do you mind answering my question from earlier. Not trying to avoid it are you?

I'll try, here goes. Why is any player better than another? DNA? Training? Desire? Natural ability? A combination of all these probably. I'm not an anthropologist so probably not really qualified to answer you jhamer. Chin up though, I did say that Roberts and North are better than their English counterparts  

gregortree wrote:well Miss, that is the first step, to acknowledge one's drinking problem.
But try AA before the police.

   I think you need to watch the film greg

Taffineastbourne wrote:How many England players in this side were involved in last year's record defeat?Psychological scarring?

#

Incentive and drive for revenge, you mean?

England at home .
Wales more experience team
England beat good Ireland side
Wales beat inconsistent French side
Wales got better looking players
Wales shirts are easier to keep clean
f**k knows what the players be thinking or who got the edge . only think i can predicted Im not going to work the Monday after

England have a number of players in good form (Care, Brown, Launchberry, Lawes, Burrell) but if (big if) we can get some decent ball Wales will target Twelvetrees, May and Nowell who have not been very convincing IMO. Nowell looks particularly error prone and doesn't seem to score tries. Struggling to see why he's being picked to be honest. Any team that has a good recent head to head record against the other team will have some psychological edge but I doubt that will count for much on the day.

I dont understand why the poster would think that Wales have apsychological edge over England?

This is a different England team to the one that played last year. and you cannot compare last years game to this year.

England are at home, so in my mind they should have a slight edge over Wales.

England played one of their toughest games against Ireland than they have played in years. I am not saying the playing against Wales is going to be easy because it never is.

I think who ever gets on the front foot in the scrum will have the edge over the other team. If you go on experience it should be going too Wales, what with the all those Lions
players in their scrum they should muller England in that respect.

I think it is too close to call. but being an English man i am going for an England win. How many points though? By 10 fingers crossed.  

Rugby Fan wrote:

Comfort wrote:So, of the whole England squad, just 4 have, once  

Not that I'd recommend it, but you could conjure an England team from current players who have all beaten Wales

Cole/Wilson/Stevens/Sheridan
Hartley
Borthwick/Deacon/Shaw/Botha/Palmer
Haskell/Armitage/Wood/Croft/Easter
Care/Youngs/Wigglesworth
Flood/Hodgson/Wilkinson
Tuilagi/Banahan/Tait/Tindall/Hipkiss/Armitage/Monye/Cueto/Foden

You can't do that for South Africa. The only players still active who have played in a winning team against the Boks are

Wilkinson, Cueto, Tindall, Borthwick, Sheridan, Andy Goode, Tait, Palmer and Hodgson. Oh, and Phil Vickery, of course.

Something of a pointless exercise, but it helped pass the time.

Its quite good for embarrassing Wales given some of the names on there   

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:I shall phone the police and tell them there are a couple of drunks on the forum

Seeing as your back do you mind answering my question from earlier. Not trying to avoid it are you?

I'll try, here goes. Why is any player better than another? DNA? Training? Desire? Natural ability? A combination of all these probably. I'm not an anthropologist so probably not really qualified to answer you jhamer. Chin up though, I did say that Roberts and North are better than their English counterparts  

First of all you are right Jamie and George would walk into the English team.

But you're still not really answering my question or giving a valid reason for your original post. Your not giving me the reason why each English player is better than their welsh opponents. Is it that you can't or won't.
For example, tell me how Joe Marler is better than Gethin Jenkins then work your way through the team.

I mean i might even agree with you if you give valid, fair and reasonable reason but it seems you can't put but even one of those factors together.

Well obviously with a superior set of players and coaching staff Wales are going to have the edge. Along with being defending champions yet again and winning out in Australia last summer England may feel that they are only there to make up the numbers in this game. Personally though I think it will be closer than people think and Wales will only win by 20-25 points

Ok now this will ruffle few feathers but if the starting two line ups were merged this is how I would select it

Jenkins
Hartley
A Jones
AWJ
Lawes

Well I think that was the easy part, I don't think there will be any agreement on the backrow so but for me its the Welsh trio and am sure for the English they would pick their trio

Care
Farrell

North
Roberts
Burrell
Halfpenny

Brown

6 a piece then the backrow debate lol.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Ok now this will ruffle few feathers but if the starting two line ups were merged this is how I would select it

Jenkins
Hartley
A Jones
AWJ
Lawes

Well I think that was the easy part, I don't think there will be any agreement on the backrow so but for me its the Welsh trio and am sure for the English they would pick their trio

Care
Farrell

North
Roberts
Burrell
Halfpenny

Brown

6 a piece then the backrow debate lol.

I can't believe you would drop BOD again. Oh, wait...   

Rugby Fan wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Ok now this will ruffle few feathers but if the starting two line ups were merged this is how I would select it

Jenkins
Hartley
A Jones
AWJ
Lawes

Well I think that was the easy part, I don't think there will be any agreement on the backrow so but for me its the Welsh trio and am sure for the English they would pick their trio

Care
Farrell

North
Roberts
Burrell
Halfpenny

Brown

6 a piece then the backrow debate lol.

I can't believe you would drop BOD again. Oh, wait...   

...... and the man who replaced him FOXY DAVIES  ................ surely the first footballer to be pencilled in

Fly,

Davies hasn't played so not including him.