Do Wales have the psychological edge over this England team?

First topic message reminder :

Although England clearly have the better players, does last year's mauling at the hands of Steve Welsh and the Welsh team give them a distinct edge going in to next week's encounter?
It may be universally accepted that Steve Walsh had a huge hand in the result, but the scars of that defeat must run deep. Or perhaps has Ireland's battering of Wales and then their subsequent loss to England redressed this imbalance?

bedfordwelsh wrote:Fly,

Davies hasn't played so not including him.

Ahhh I understand...... Thank god for that my next suggestion was going to be Bazzy John and Dai Duckham   

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

beshocked wrote:I think you'll provoke some angry Welsh responses by saying England have the better players. I think it's difficult to say who has the better players.

To answer the question - Not sure. Winning consecutive matches against a team does make a difference in my opinion.

England had won two on the bounce vs Ireland so a 3rd victory was not too surprising in my opinion - especially at home.

Wales will feel confident but this is a different look England side.

I think it will be a very tough match but at least this time round England should have a winger on the wing and a no 8 at no 8.

England will have to find a way to stop Wales' big men generating momentum.

Realistically only North and Roberts would get in to this England side, possibly Adam Jones now what with England's injury tally.

And realistically i wouldn't pick a single englishman for the welsh side, maybe Brown if 1/2 injured and Lawes on the bench as we have so many lock injuries.

Scratch wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

beshocked wrote:I think you'll provoke some angry Welsh responses by saying England have the better players. I think it's difficult to say who has the better players.

To answer the question - Not sure. Winning consecutive matches against a team does make a difference in my opinion.

England had won two on the bounce vs Ireland so a 3rd victory was not too surprising in my opinion - especially at home.

Wales will feel confident but this is a different look England side.

I think it will be a very tough match but at least this time round England should have a winger on the wing and a no 8 at no 8.

England will have to find a way to stop Wales' big men generating momentum.

Realistically only North and Roberts would get in to this England side, possibly Adam Jones now what with England's injury tally.

And realistically i wouldn't pick a single englishman for the welsh side, maybe Brown if 1/2 injured and Lawes on the bench as we have so many lock injuries.

Most of your backs are English, Scratchy.

Possibly one or two of the current England team would make the Wales squad

Not even Dynamic Dan???????????????

Oh come on, Scratch - patriotism won't hang you for picking Dan at 9.

I must say it's good to see some of these Welsh posters back again following their internet outage a couple of weeks ago. It was disappointing not to be able to hear your comments on your game against Ireland but I guess you just couldn't get online.

Welcome back

SecretFly wrote:Not even Dynamic Dan???????????????  

Oh come on, Scratch - patriotism won't hang you for picking Dan at 9.

i like care. have always thought he is the future for england as his willingness to attack the breakdown compensates for england's now problematic inability to use the width of the pitch, but Webb is a similar player and has just taken the top spot in compelling fashion

We don't know how compelling the opposition really were yet though - I mean the French.  Were they destroyed by Wales or were they just hopeless?  England v Wales will give more clues.

Anybody looks good when you're used to watching Phillips.

I agree the french were dismal, in fact the commentators are back to desciribing them as an enigma which is a sure sign we are all thinking the same, they won the stats game outright but lost, their 9/10 axis was horrible. Truth si though they lost the head game, when France get bullied 1-5 then the collective heads go down, the mistakes creep in, they start Le Sulk and it's game over. Look at Pape's petulance and Picamoles derision....sure signs.
But what beat them into that submission was an imperious tight 5, a complete back row performace and opportunism in the backs.
Behind that pack most teams woudl have won. With AWJ back, Cole and probably Vunipola out i see no reason why we cannot do the same to the english
C'est Formidable, watch out England.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Ok now this will ruffle few feathers but if the starting two line ups were merged this is how I would select it

Jenkins
Hartley
A Jones
AWJ
Lawes

Well I think that was the easy part, I don't think there will be any agreement on the backrow so but for me its the Welsh trio and am sure for the English they would pick their trio

Care
Farrell

North
Roberts
Burrell
Halfpenny

Brown

6 a piece then the backrow debate lol.

Bedford,a good selection though I would have an issue with Farrell.I hope England stick with him coz he is their weakest link and brings little to the party other than a stroppy attitude.

The English won't sulk though... not this time.

If both sides come out for it like raging bulls then it should be a Very entertaining game.

Cyril wrote:

Scratch wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

beshocked wrote:I think you'll provoke some angry Welsh responses by saying England have the better players. I think it's difficult to say who has the better players.

To answer the question - Not sure. Winning consecutive matches against a team does make a difference in my opinion.

England had won two on the bounce vs Ireland so a 3rd victory was not too surprising in my opinion - especially at home.

Wales will feel confident but this is a different look England side.

I think it will be a very tough match but at least this time round England should have a winger on the wing and a no 8 at no 8.

England will have to find a way to stop Wales' big men generating momentum.

Realistically only North and Roberts would get in to this England side, possibly Adam Jones now what with England's injury tally.

And realistically i wouldn't pick a single englishman for the welsh side, maybe Brown if 1/2 injured and Lawes on the bench as we have so many lock injuries.

Most of your backs are English, Scratchy.

As English as Owen Lewsey was Welsh Cybil.

Taffineastbourne wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Ok now this will ruffle few feathers but if the starting two line ups were merged this is how I would select it

Jenkins
Hartley
A Jones
AWJ
Lawes

Well I think that was the easy part, I don't think there will be any agreement on the backrow so but for me its the Welsh trio and am sure for the English they would pick their trio

Care
Farrell

North
Roberts
Burrell
Halfpenny

Brown

6 a piece then the backrow debate lol.

Bedford,a good selection though I would have an issue with Farrell.I hope England stick with him coz he is their weakest link and brings little to the party other than a stroppy attitude.

Taff,

I just think Priestland is still a bit flaky if he's on top notch form no contest.

Scratch wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Scratch wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

beshocked wrote:I think you'll provoke some angry Welsh responses by saying England have the better players. I think it's difficult to say who has the better players.

To answer the question - Not sure. Winning consecutive matches against a team does make a difference in my opinion.

England had won two on the bounce vs Ireland so a 3rd victory was not too surprising in my opinion - especially at home.

Wales will feel confident but this is a different look England side.

I think it will be a very tough match but at least this time round England should have a winger on the wing and a no 8 at no 8.

England will have to find a way to stop Wales' big men generating momentum.

Realistically only North and Roberts would get in to this England side, possibly Adam Jones now what with England's injury tally.

And realistically i wouldn't pick a single englishman for the welsh side, maybe Brown if 1/2 injured and Lawes on the bench as we have so many lock injuries.

Most of your backs are English, Scratchy.

As English as Owen Lewsey was Welsh Cybil.

That's right (and Dewi Morris).

Cyril wrote:
Most of your backs are English, Scratchy.

They aren't though and this is just a poor, exhausting WUM.

Way I see it, Wales quite clearly have the better players. They 'might' have the edge in the positions Wales do not have much better players. Halfback and back-row. If we bring our France game form England's back-row will be swept aside.

I think Danny Care could walk into any team in the NH at the moment.

Apart from him i cant see any other English player apart from Brown in form ad Halfpenny off form.
I mean the English would be honored to have a few of our non starting players like Paul James, Samson Lee and Scott Williams though   

Anyway jokes aside it will be a very very very close game no matter what you all think whether that's English, welsh or neutral.

oh and i'm still waiting for you reply MissBlenner

Good point about Brown there Jhamer, and even better one on James and Lee. England's fan base really think they're onto something with this erm, Wilson guy. Having seen the 6 Nations so far I can honestly say I've never been more confident of seeing an England scrum go backwards at the hands of a Wales one.

Good grief it doesn't take long for these t threads to get dull does it? I like the look of this England team and think they have a lot of potential but I think Wales have experience of grinding out wins and will pull a performance out against England. I expect it to be brutal up front but other than lawes I don't see that much destruction in defence. Against Ireland they rushed up and hit nothing. Wales on the Other hand drive france back in defence every time. I think there Webb will Make half breaks and get England on the back foot. I'm going wake by at least 5 based on a stronger defensive system.

I think the scrums are about equal to be honest. The amount of times Gethin Jenkins hit floor when the ref said "bind" was amazing.

Apart from that i do expect a tight game, a very tight game.

Psychological edge is dependant on a variety of factors

Record - clearly in Wales favour in recent meetings with wins at home and away.
Last meeting - hardly needs mentioning
Venue - HQ, but we have won there in the last meeting. Hardly the same cauldron as Cardiff.
Injury - Cole is a crucial one, Vunipola can be adequately replaced by Morgan. Ball was effective and North si doing well at 13.
Selection - Have England at last found some consistency? They remain largely a youthful side with inexperience and the Irish victory flatters to decieve, Ireland missed a trick. Wales are a combo of youth and huge expereince and they all knwo how to win the 6 Nations.
Wales have also found unusual strength in depth in Ball, Webb and North. Their tight 5 picks itself though i think AWJ will return to the starting side with Ball benched. IMO with the likes of philips and Davies on the bench Wales have a huge impact advantage.
Tournament performance - both have had howlers, England were naive v France but have come back soundly, Wales were shocking against Ireland but we know that they get better in the tournament. Double Champions v the side that often falls on the last hurdle.

So the psychological advanatge is clearly to Wales though of course this means nothing as England are the better side.

majesticimperialman wrote:I think the scrums are about equal to be honest. The amount of times Gethin Jenkins hit floor when the ref said "bind" was amazing.

Apart from that i do expect a tight game, a very tight game.

And the amount of scrum experts on here compared to the paid professionals working in officiating is amazing. Be nice if you could just for once have your own view madge instead of copying what some crap wummer has already said.

#walescheats

majesticimperialman wrote:I think the scrums are about equal to be honest. The amount of times Gethin Jenkins hit floor when the ref said "bind" was amazing.

Apart from that i do expect a tight game, a very tight game.

Funny how it never happened on a French put in though

I'm loving the 'who I'd have from the other side' comments. Are both sides not full of one another's players already anyway?

England will win. I have a pretty good record at predicting these things, and I'm telling you. Psychological advantage? Nope. England will be spoiling to put things right, and as I've already predicted Wales may have shot their load for this tournament. They looked fatigued early in the tournament and I think were playing to restore pride and flattered by a French side that didn't show up after their solid start at home.

Wales will not have enough has to counteract England's strangling tactics and direct running.

I have England by 12 points, setting up a nail biting points differential contest with the Irish ( or French - need to wait until next week to decide who will win that one )

There is now no doubt Wales will win. I have a feeling in my bowels. England will be obsessed with the hoodoo of their destruction last year. They should have beaten france who have now fallen apart. What it released them from is the perennial 6 Nations Slam they keep missing out on, the pressure is off them but not the Welsh, as has been proven this pressure is exactly what Wales needed.

England will not have enough in their tight 5 to compete with the Welsh.

Wales by 13. Ireland will come back to beat France well. You either knwo or you don't.

The Saint wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:I think the scrums are about equal to be honest. The amount of times Gethin Jenkins hit floor when the ref said "bind" was amazing.

Apart from that i do expect a tight game, a very tight game.

And the amount of scrum experts on here compared to the paid professionals working in officiating is amazing. Be nice if you could just for once have your own view madge instead of copying what some crap wummer has already said.

#walescheats

Saint,

This is my own view.

Who is this crap wummer you are on about?

When was the last time England won the triple crown?

2003. Google is your friend.

2003? Ominous.

2 thirds there. Do able but hard.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

beshocked wrote:I think you'll provoke some angry Welsh responses by saying England have the better players. I think it's difficult to say who has the better players.

To answer the question - Not sure. Winning consecutive matches against a team does make a difference in my opinion.

England had won two on the bounce vs Ireland so a 3rd victory was not too surprising in my opinion - especially at home.

Wales will feel confident but this is a different look England side.

I think it will be a very tough match but at least this time round England should have a winger on the wing and a no 8 at no 8.

England will have to find a way to stop Wales' big men generating momentum.

Realistically only North and Roberts would get in to this England side, possibly Adam Jones now what with England's injury tally.

Hahahahahahahaha I only got this far into the thread and decided to give up. What a pathetic and inept statement  

Come scrum time Wales will have a massive advantage from the pitch. All game long Adam Jones was complaining to the ref about being pinged for not being able to keep his feet. And as was said earlier Gethin was also prone quite a bit. Twickers is rated by some the best pitch in the world with its Desso surface. watching England and Ireland scrumming on their toes showed that. Give Wales the tools for the jod and they'll be all over you like a bad suit. So against two of the best props in the world England have Wilson recently back from injury and Marler who is not first choice. Pleeeze! To be fair I'd put Hibs and Hartley about equal. Also no Vunipola to lend a good shove from No8 and it will be all over Wales by 10

Good point, the Twickenham pitch should definitely boost Wales' s scrum advantage - the millennium stadium pitch does us no favours at all.

The Mil pitch does nobody any favours.

IMHO its a disgrace and an artificial replacement is very much required

No they didn't is the short answer, if anything, Wales looked a little over-awed from the start. This England team do seem to have learnt how to bounce back from adversity, be it within a match or over a longer period.

Wales looked short on confidence, but more worryingly for them, on ability. I'm sure they'll bounce back but I'd be surprised if they can in time for RWC 2015, very surprised. Gatland has left things far too late imo.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:No they didn't is the short answer, if anything, Wales looked a little over-awed from the start. This England team do seem to have learnt how to bounce back from adversity, be it within a match or over a longer period.

Wales looked short on confidence, but more worryingly for them, on ability. I'm sure they'll bounce back but I'd be surprised if they can in time for RWC 2015, very surprised. Gatland has left things far too late imo.

Gethin Jenkins looks past it. Has been a great player though.

Exiledinborders wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:No they didn't is the short answer, if anything, Wales looked a little over-awed from the start. This England team do seem to have learnt how to bounce back from adversity, be it within a match or over a longer period.

Wales looked short on confidence, but more worryingly for them, on ability. I'm sure they'll bounce back but I'd be surprised if they can in time for RWC 2015, very surprised. Gatland has left things far too late imo.

Gethin Jenkins looks past it. Has been a great player though.  

Yes there are clearly problems in the front row, half back (a problem for many years) and at centre, Roberts is still class but his distribution is poor and I've never really rated JD2. 2nd row is okay but only that, whereas the back row and the back 3 are young and good players. Probably too late to start blooding players now and you won't win anything with just a few useful backs and loose forwards.

rainbow-warrior wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

beshocked wrote:I think you'll provoke some angry Welsh responses by saying England have the better players. I think it's difficult to say who has the better players.

To answer the question - Not sure. Winning consecutive matches against a team does make a difference in my opinion.

England had won two on the bounce vs Ireland so a 3rd victory was not too surprising in my opinion - especially at home.

Wales will feel confident but this is a different look England side.

I think it will be a very tough match but at least this time round England should have a winger on the wing and a no 8 at no 8.

England will have to find a way to stop Wales' big men generating momentum.

Realistically only North and Roberts would get in to this England side, possibly Adam Jones now what with England's injury tally.

Hahahahahahahaha I only got this far into the thread and decided to give up.  What a pathetic and inept statement  

  

Look we all know England won this off the park thanks to North and Warburtons hamfisted attempts at explaining national pride.

Wales still have the better players, you can tell that from the way Cutherbert tackled.

Wales still have approximately as much talent as the three teams chasing the title next weekend, slightly less depth than France or England but there's not very much between the starting XVs of the best 4 NH sides on paper.

The problem is they haven't changed the tactics in a good long while and everyone knows what to expect which means they have no psychological edge over anyone. Familiarity breeds contempt and when a team can say with confidence what their opponents are going to do and how they are going to counter it all of the other stuff goes out the window.

The other problem is Gatlands loyalty to certain players. To be fair he killed one sacred cow when he dropped Mike Phillips, but there's no way Gethin Jenkins is better than Paul James or Rhys Priestland is better than Dan Biggar. This is the most puzzling thing of all for me, because I really rate those two guys and they are sitting on the bench behind two players who look like real liabilities. When the 10 makes a high-profile error or your loose head can't hold up his side of the scrum, that just gives more confidence and belief to your opponents.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Look we all know England won this off the park thanks to North and Warburtons hamfisted attempts at explaining national pride.

Wales still have the better players, you can tell that from the way Cutherbert tackled.

   

Eirther way it was a victory for Britain

Notch wrote:Wales still have approximately as much talent as the three teams chasing the title next weekend, slightly less depth than France or England but there's not very much between the starting XVs of the best 4 NH sides on paper.

The problem is they haven't changed the tactics in a good long while and everyone knows what to expect which means they have no psychological edge over anyone. Familiarity breeds contempt and when a team can say with confidence what their opponents are going to do and how they are going to counter it all of the other stuff goes out the window.

The other problem is Gatlands loyalty to certain players. To be fair he killed one sacred cow when he dropped Mike Phillips, but there's no way Gethin Jenkins is better than Paul James or Rhys Priestland is better than Dan Biggar. This is the most puzzling thing of all for me, because I really rate those two guys and they are sitting on the bench behind two players who look like real liabilities. When the 10 makes a high-profile error or your loose head can't hold up his side of the scrum, that just gives more confidence and belief to your opponents.

problem for wales currently is that warrenball relies on a really strong forward game in set piece (particularly scum) and open play. and it looked against ireland and england as if wales were outplayed (and perhaps more important at this level) outgassed by the opposition forwards. there was a massive gulf between ball/awj and lawes/launchbury in terms of carries, tackles, metres covered. i saw at least 4 tackles where launchbury and lawes both stopped jamie roberts dead in his tracks. i know awj isnt fully match fit. but i think the second row and some of the welsh front row, are not pulling the required weight for a warrenball strategy to work.

wales's real talent is 11-15. warrenball with misfiring forwards and an unsettled 9/10 combo is not going to unlock that potential.

quinsforever wrote:wales's real talent is 11-15. warrenball with misfiring forwards and an unsettled 9/10 combo is not going to unlock that potential.

I agree. When the front 5 can dominate, the half backs job is easy and the direct running off quick front foot ball can really reap dividends. When they do not then there needs to be more than that.

The backs (as you say 11-15) have the ability to do a lot more, and the back row is excellent. But changes need to be made.

In answer to the OP. Clearly NO. What most people don't understand or acknowledge is that England have changed the way they play the game. Its now about high intensity fizzing pace all across the park with limited kicking. A willingness to run with the ball when its on no matter who is in front of them.

No other NH side comes near except maybe Ireland. The rest are being left behind. Wales wouldn't beat this England side in a million years unless they change too.

LondonTiger wrote:

quinsforever wrote:wales's real talent is 11-15. warrenball with misfiring forwards and an unsettled 9/10 combo is not going to unlock that potential.

I agree. When the front 5 can dominate, the half backs job is easy and the direct running off quick front foot ball can really reap dividends. When they do not then there needs to be more than that.

The backs (as you say 11-15) have the ability to do a lot more, and the back row is excellent. But changes need to be made.

  

apologies if i was a bit short on the other thread, someone scratched me...  

quinsforever wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

quinsforever wrote:wales's real talent is 11-15. warrenball with misfiring forwards and an unsettled 9/10 combo is not going to unlock that potential.

I agree. When the front 5 can dominate, the half backs job is easy and the direct running off quick front foot ball can really reap dividends. When they do not then there needs to be more than that.

The backs (as you say 11-15) have the ability to do a lot more, and the back row is excellent. But changes need to be made.

  

apologies if i was a bit short on the other thread, someone scratched me...  

such a sensitive flower.....there was (fake) blood all over the place.

Notch wrote,
'Wales still have approximately as much talent as the three teams chasing the title next weekend, slightly less depth than France or England but there's not very much between the starting XVs of the best 4 NH sides on paper.'

There hasn't been for about 3-4 years. The difference this year in the main is -

1) Scmidt for Ireland
2) Wales front 5 are struggling this year, particularly the props.
3) England are a young developing side playing with tempo & confidence.
4) France need a decent coach still though.

englandglory4ever wrote:In answer to the OP. Clearly NO. What most people don't understand or acknowledge is that England have changed the way they play the game. Its now about high intensity fizzing pace all across the park with limited kicking. A willingness to run with the ball when its on no matter who is in front of them.

No other NH side comes near except maybe Ireland. The rest are being left behind. Wales wouldn't beat this England side in a million years unless they change too.

Don't think so but you believe what you want. The wheels will be falling off the chariot fast than you think. A poor 6 Nations all round and you get runners up, hardly inspiring stuff.