Ireland vs Italy, 8th March

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IRELAND VS ITALY

Date: Saturday, March 8
Kick-off: 14:30 GMT
Venue: Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant referees: Pascal Gauzère (France), Greg Garner (England)
Television match official: Geoff Warren (England)
Assessor: Andrew Cole (Australia)

IRELAND TEAM wrote:15 Rob Kearney, 14 Andrew Trimble, 13 Brian O'Driscoll, 12 Gordon D'Arcy, 11 Dave Kearney, 10 Jonathan Sexton, 9 Conor Murray, 8 Jamie Heaslip, 7 Chris Henry, 6 Iain Henderson, 5 Paul O'Connell (c), 4 Devin Toner, 3 Mike Ross, 2 Rory Best, 1 Cian Healy.

16 Sean Cronin, 17 Jack McGrath, 18 Martin Moore, 19 Rhys Ruddock, 20 Jordi Murphy, 21 Eoin Reddan, 22 Paddy Jackson, 23 Fergus McFadden.

ITALY TEAM wrote:15 Luke McLean, 14 Angelo Esposito, 13 Michele Campagnaro, 12 Gonzalo Garcia, 11 Leonardo Sarto, 10 Luciano Orquera, 9 Tito Tebaldi, 8 Robert Barbieri, 7 Paul Derbyshire, 6 Joshua Furno, 5 Marco Bortolami (c), 4 Quentin Geldenhuys, 3 Martin Castrogiovanni, 2 Leonardo Ghiraldini, 1 Alberto de Marchi

16 David Giazzon, 17 Michele Rizzo, 18 Lorenzo Cittadini, 19 Antonio Pavanello, 20 Manoa Vosawai, 21 Edoardo Gori, 22 Tommaso Allan, 23 Andrea Masi

If we win this game by a larger margin than the winners of the other two games achieve then it's very, very simple- we set up a Cup Final for ourselves in Paris to win the Championship. We do already have the best points difference but we have a chance to settle the issue of points difference beyond all doubt and make this a very simple equation. An Ireland win in Paris, and we are champions. We are out to score and Joe Schmidt has named his strongest available team.

Italy have chosen to rotate their squad with half an eye on targeting the final game against England, Sergio Parisse is rested along with the first choice halfbacks in a team with a more experimental look. Tito Tebaldi and Andrea Masi make long awaited returns to the Italian match day squad and Luciano Orquera will hope to recapture the form which saw him perform so well in some famous Italian victories in the 2013 campaign.

There'll be plenty of applause for a retiring legend... but no room for sentiment. A ruthless and clinical performance is required.

GunsGerms wrote:Zebo's try scoring record for Ireland is similar to Kearney's.

Zebo - Ireland 6 caps 2 tries.
        - Ireland A 2 caps 1 try

Kearney - Ireland 4 caps 2 tries
             - Ireland A 2 caps 1 try

Kearney is in the team on merit and has hardly put a foot wrong. Zebo may get his chance yet but there is nothing much to suggest he would have done any better.

Although those stats look very similar (and both quite impressive) I would like to see other stats. Meters made, players beaten, clean breaks and assists. I would not be surprised if those showed that Zebo is a far more dynamic player than Dave Kearney.

In between all the Provincial fun, we all know we'd secretly like to see what Zebo might bring to the party.... as long as he keeps the back kicks to a minimum.  That kinda class is only for Man U on European nights of artistry!!!!!!!!!!!


What?  What dd I say wrong?????

Nachos Jones wrote:Zebo is a far more dynamic player than Dave Kearney.

So is Chris Ashton. Kearney is more hard than dancey. He's more Roy Keane than George.
And he would have scored one of the most outrageous tries of the modern era had that gymnastic attempt come off in the Scotland game. Why did the fates not allow it to happen?!!!! They're against us too.

Just after realising we had Craig Joubert twice.

Any other teams have a double hit with a ref so far?

SecretFly wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:Zebo is a far more dynamic player than Dave Kearney.

So is Chris Ashton.  Kearney is more hard than dancey.  He's more Roy Keane than George.  
And he would have scored one of the most outrageous tries of the modern era had that gymnastic attempt come off in the Scotland game.  Why did the fates not allow it to happen?!!!!  They're against us too.

Don't get me wrong, I like Dave Kearney and think that he has done a very good job. Both wingers have if I can be honest. I just think that Zebo is the better option and think that he brings just that little bit more to the squad.

Well, to be honest, it's well documented that I think D Kearney would be much more potent moving in to a centre position anyway.. I just have always thought he has more a centre's instincts than a wing's.

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

It proves he isnt a good winger to me if he is chased down (yes chased down) by a lock forward. Apparently as per Joes recent conference tackling and catching the ball are the main things (oh and hitting rucks - dont forget Joe likes his wings to hit rucks - scoring tries are not so important).

Its a good thing you arent Ireland coach Dod if you pick up on single incidents and call for the axe. POM high tackled a winger and according to some deserved a yellow card or even penalty try. Does that prove to you he doesnt have the temperament to be a rugby player? Or do single incidents apply only to Leinster players you dont approve of?

ME-109 wrote:

Out of curiosity...what would you see zebo needs to improve on (not sure what attitude is in relation to being a rugby player - do you mean having oodles of talent and not using it - oh hang on thats Jamie )?

I have already said his attitude clearly needs to improve. I'd argue that his focus does too. He can be a bit of a headless chicken at times. I wouldnt imagine him to be a team player or the sort that takes direction well.

Now you are just being silly but if you must...

On single incidents I seem to remember the coach singling out Luke Marshall regarding Australia even though it was really incidental to the end result. Nothing mentioned about Darcy tackling the wrong man for the try or Rob Kearnage not trusting average Dave on Brown (who had him covered). No mention at all...
But you think its ok that an international winger is caught by a lock?

Regarding Zebo's attitude focus or whatever all I can go on are what I see and what I hear. Both Mannix and Penney have said that both his attitude and approach to team work are excellent and in his games over the last year that has been the case and all you are doing is projecting your own dislike on him.

Anyhow it is all academic Joe has made his bed. Its Mr Average for now...

Nachos Jones wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Zebo's try scoring record for Ireland is similar to Kearney's.

Zebo - Ireland 6 caps 2 tries.
        - Ireland A 2 caps 1 try

Kearney - Ireland 4 caps 2 tries
             - Ireland A 2 caps 1 try

Kearney is in the team on merit and has hardly put a foot wrong. Zebo may get his chance yet but there is nothing much to suggest he would have done any better.

Although those stats look very similar (and both quite impressive) I would like to see other stats. Meters made, players beaten, clean breaks and assists. I would not be surprised if those showed that Zebo is a far more dynamic player than Dave Kearney.

Here are some Stats...

Top Try Scorer Leinster (this season) Jack McGrath (Average Dave = 2)
Average Dave has never scored a try in a HC game.

Top Try Scorer Munster (Zebo since start of 2011-12 season)...

Given the squad isnt going to change maybe we should put Healy/McGrath on the wings and try Average Dave as Prop...(would be an excuse for being caught by a lock at least)

Leinster spread around their try scorers though. Let everyone have a go.

What a load of drivel re wingers

We have 8 decent wingers in Ireland - Bowe, Zebo, Trimble, Earls, Gilroy, McFadden, Kearney, Fitzgerald.
Which every 2 play does not fundamentally alter the strength of the team.
They have different qualities and some would do better than other in particular game plans and against differing opposition.

Schmidt has gone for two who are fully match fit, which rules most of the others out, who are playing well and who fit his game plan - GOOD.

As to the centres we all know we have an aging pair but the reality is the guys ear marked to replace BOD (Payne and Henshaw) are either ineligible or inexperienced.
Henshaw will play in the summer and Payne will get game time in the Autumn.
As for D'Arcy - Marshall is slowly being introduced but it is understandable he is playing two players who know each other in the short term at 12 and 13.
My guess is D'Arcy will be behind Marshall after this 6N.
As also mentioned over the coming year we will see more of Marmion, Jackson, Olding, Henshaw and Payne and the expansive nature of the Ireland back play will be revealed.

Before any of that happens though the performance of the team as a unit is a country mile better than this time last year when we were awful under Kidney.

Well said Geoff, spot on sir!

So..........where was Williams? What was he doing? Who was he with?

Over to you Ulster fans. Tell us all about it.

Geoff granted his holiday request without checking with David Humphreys, just a misunderstanding fly.

geoff999rugby wrote:What a load of drivel re wingers

We have 8 decent wingers in Ireland - Bowe, Zebo, Trimble, Earls, Gilroy, McFadden, Kearney, Fitzgerald.
Which every 2 play does not fundamentally alter the strength of the team.
They have different qualities and some would do better than other in particular game plans and against differing opposition.

Schmidt has gone for two who are fully match fit, which rules most of the others out, who are playing well and who fit his game plan - GOOD.

As to the centres we all know we have an aging pair but the reality is the guys ear marked to replace BOD (Payne and Henshaw) are either ineligible or inexperienced.
Henshaw will play in the summer and Payne will get game time in the Autumn.
As for D'Arcy - Marshall is slowly being introduced but it is understandable he is playing two players who know each other in the short term at 12 and 13.
My guess is D'Arcy will be behind Marshall after this 6N.
As also mentioned over the coming year we will see more of Marmion, Jackson, Olding, Henshaw and Payne and the expansive nature of the Ireland back play will be revealed.

Before any of that happens though the performance of the team as a unit is a country mile better than this time last year when we were awful under Kidney.

What a load of drivel RE You....considering you brought up the DK record from last year..if we are using last year as a reference then fine. if you like average then thats also fine. Up to now its been decidedly average.

You seem to be a sage with regards to the future. How could you possibly know that Marmion Jackson or any of the others may make it? You may hope it but it isnt really clear.

geoff999rugby wrote:What a load of drivel re wingers

We have 8 decent wingers in Ireland - Bowe, Zebo, Trimble, Earls, Gilroy, McFadden, Kearney, Fitzgerald.
Which every 2 play does not fundamentally alter the strength of the team.
They have different qualities and some would do better than other in particular game plans and against differing opposition.

Schmidt has gone for two who are fully match fit, which rules most of the others out, who are playing well and who fit his game plan - GOOD.

As to the centres we all know we have an aging pair but the reality is the guys ear marked to replace BOD (Payne and Henshaw) are either ineligible or inexperienced.
Henshaw will play in the summer and Payne will get game time in the Autumn.
As for D'Arcy - Marshall is slowly being introduced but it is understandable he is playing two players who know each other in the short term at 12 and 13.
My guess is D'Arcy will be behind Marshall after this 6N.
As also mentioned over the coming year we will see more of Marmion, Jackson, Olding, Henshaw and Payne and the expansive nature of the Ireland back play will be revealed.

Before any of that happens though the performance of the team as a unit is a country mile better than this time last year when we were awful under Kidney.

Good post,I'd say our performances are better than at any time under Kidney bar 2009,fiND can improve the team the longer he's in the job we'll be a very good team.

Looks like you are in a minority ME-109

How do I know those young lads will make it - it is called judgement.
Having played and watched rugby for 50 years I know class when I see it.
Those lads have what it takes.
Fortunately the Irish management agree with me.

We can argue what average is what I do know that that what we have seen this year is better than the last 2 years or so under Kidney.
Given Schmidt is still only just in the job the improvement in such a short space of time is impressive.
If you think this is average lord knows what you would have thought of the 90's

rodders wrote:Geoff granted his holiday request without checking with David Humphreys, just a misunderstanding fly.  

Yep I'll be keel hauled in the morning    

I've never thought of the Irish team being average under DK, in fact bar the odd freak display of rugby the national side were distinctly below average and sometimes verged on the awful. We've only started the JS era and already have seen a longer run of consistency than we ever saw under DK.
As for the players Geoff mentioned, I'd be flabberghasted if they didn't play a big role in the future of Irish rugby. With JS at the helm we will begin to see much more of what me missed being bogged down with a terrible coach for so long. We already are.

geoff999rugby wrote:
Given Schmidt is still only just in the job the improvement in such a short space of time is impressive.

Kidney won a Grand Slam in his first year in charge so this part of your argument does not really stack up at all. The GS is gone and may not even win the Championship.

BlueMuff wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Given Schmidt is still only just in the job the improvement in such a short space of time is impressive.

Kidney won a Grand Slam in his first year in charge so this part of your argument does not really stack up at all. The GS is gone and may not even win the Championship.

It would appear that the slam was as much to do with the momentum built by previous coaches and player leadership. Post slam we got worse every year.

GunsGerms wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Given Schmidt is still only just in the job the improvement in such a short space of time is impressive.

Kidney won a Grand Slam in his first year in charge so this part of your argument does not really stack up at all. The GS is gone and may not even win the Championship.

It would appear that the slam was as much to do with the momentum built by previous coaches and player leadership. Post slam we got worse every year.

+1

BlueMuff wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Given Schmidt is still only just in the job the improvement in such a short space of time is impressive.

Kidney won a Grand Slam in his first year in charge so this part of your argument does not really stack up at all. The GS is gone and may not even win the Championship.

Kidney didn't inherit a team that finished joint bottom of the 6N or that were nilled in a major international match.He also didn't have to deal with any injuries or face England and France away from home.Kidney left the team in worse shape than he got it.

Pete330v2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Given Schmidt is still only just in the job the improvement in such a short space of time is impressive.

Kidney won a Grand Slam in his first year in charge so this part of your argument does not really stack up at all. The GS is gone and may not even win the Championship.

It would appear that the slam was as much to do with the momentum built by previous coaches and player leadership. Post slam we got worse every year.

+1

Absolute rubbish - the World Cup in 07 was a complete disaster - morale, unity, identity of play. Yee really are grasping at straws.

BlueMuff wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Given Schmidt is still only just in the job the improvement in such a short space of time is impressive.

Kidney won a Grand Slam in his first year in charge so this part of your argument does not really stack up at all. The GS is gone and may not even win the Championship.

The Grand Slam was impressive and Kidney deserves credit to taking a nearly team of many years over the line to success.
However in that year we did not see a fundamental change in play - it was more motivational and organizational.
We did not kick on, and indeed, it fell apart over subsequent years, due I believe to limitations of the head coach.

That is not what is happening now; we are in the middle of a massive overhaul of tactics which I believe will bear fruit in the future.
Schmidt is a far more complete coach than Kidney.

BlueMuff wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Given Schmidt is still only just in the job the improvement in such a short space of time is impressive.

Kidney won a Grand Slam in his first year in charge so this part of your argument does not really stack up at all. The GS is gone and may not even win the Championship.

It would appear that the slam was as much to do with the momentum built by previous coaches and player leadership. Post slam we got worse every year.

+1

Absolute rubbish - the World Cup in 07 was a complete disaster - morale, unity, identity of play. Yee really are grasping at straws.

It was a disaster because the team that went out was maybe the best side Ireland have ever had, which was pretty much, bar one or two, the side that Kidney inherited in 2008. 

Kidney was not the person who kick started the revival either as some have said - it was Bradley who brought Bowe in from the cold, backed Kearney at 15 and oversaw the encouraging performances on the 2008 summer tour.

BlueMuff wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Given Schmidt is still only just in the job the improvement in such a short space of time is impressive.

Kidney won a Grand Slam in his first year in charge so this part of your argument does not really stack up at all. The GS is gone and may not even win the Championship.

It would appear that the slam was as much to do with the momentum built by previous coaches and player leadership. Post slam we got worse every year.

+1

Absolute rubbish - the World Cup in 07 was a complete disaster - morale, unity, identity of play. Yee really are grasping at straws.

It was a disaster but we havent done much better at any world cup to be honest. Prior to the WC in 2007 Ireland under EOS reached 3rd ranking in the world the highest we have ever reached. We won a few triple crowns and multiple second places under EOS. To try to claim we werent building towards a championship win in the six nations just isnt correct.

We all thought EOS deserved to go post world cup but in retrospect he was a better manager than Kidney. Kidney rode the wave of what came before him and struggled once that momentum came to a halt. His bonkers methods and outdated tactics just arent good enough for international rugby.

In the interests of balance rather than memory's hindsight - in relation to DK and JS:

Kidney's Ireland rose four places in the IRB rankings in eight months (that period took in his first 6N to the end of it in March) - from 8th to 4th in IRB rankings

Technically speaking, Schmidt's Ireland has also risen four places in the rankings since he officially took over 10 months ago - from 9th to 5th.

However, we all know he didn't take over straight away and was only an observer during Ireland's summer tour, controlled by Kiss.  So let's say his start date in practical terms lines up with Kidney's - July.

That's 7 months in control so far, his side have risen three places - from 8th to 5th.  I don't think it's possible for him to rise any higher in the rankings this 6N, given the ranking of the two teams we still have to meet. But it is possible for him to fall quite a bit still!

So - make of it what you will.  Kidney was doing okay and arguably better than Schmidt at about same time into his tenure.  But - times were easier then, I think (or certainly different!) as England were lower than Argentina and kept getting lower still in Kidney's first 8 months.

All that I know is that most of us were happy with what Kidney did with established players in winning the Slam - obviously! - and many of us were prepared to contemplate and appreciate his need then to build a new team and perhaps suffer the fall off in performances that might require.  I remember the main mood, and it was one of acceptance that we might suffer some but that we were looking forward to what Kidney might do with new players coming through.

In essence, that is exactly where Schmidt still is.  Fighting a first 6N with what are regarded as established players but everyone appreciating that he'll have to chance things later down the line to re-establish a new look team.  And we're all in the same boat - we understand that might knock us back a little initially but................................................... well.......................................   - we don't know anything after that.  We hope.

Quite a few new players for the '09 grand slam.

Luke Fitz, Rob Kearney, Bowe, O'Leary, even Stephen Ferris got his big chance then and Paddy Wallace actually got to start the odd game.

That is 6 players that Kidney brought in for that campaign.

Ireland's new caps with Schmidt are: Jordi Murphy, Moore & McGrath. Am I leaving anyone out?

Ronan O'Gara saying in de paper today that Munster players will have to be 30% better than Leinster players to get selected! I presume the same would apply for Ulster & Connacht.

Well most of those guys were technically capped already. If you're going to include those guys you have to include Dave Kearney- who like Ferris and Fitzgerald got their big break the previous autumn- and you have to include Jackson, Tuohy and Marshall who like Bowe had had some chances as fringe players under the previous regime. O'Donnell and Henderson too.

Zebo and Gilroy on the wings, Luke Fitzgerald replacing BOD.

9.Murray 10.Sexton 11.Zebo 12.Marshall 13.Fitzgerald 14.Gilroy 15.R Kearney

The future.

Leinster excellence motivating the other Provinces?  Fair dinkum, I reckon.  If our guys have to show the way, so be it.

But 30% better than Leinster players is laughable, they're already 103% percenters in their own right, most of them.  Except Heaslip, who comes in at only 80 percent because of social media interference bit rates.

Ronan needs to go back to the abacus... there are only so many beads on them things, Ronan.

Have I accidentally slipped into a debate as to how much more "super world class" Leinster players are over just "bog standard world class" players at Ulster and Munster??

Notch wrote:Well most of those guys were technically capped already. If you're going to include those guys you have to include Dave Kearney- who like Ferris and Fitzgerald got their big break the previous autumn- and you have to include Jackson, Tuohy and Marshall who like Bowe had had some chances as fringe players under the previous regime. O'Donnell and Henderson too.

Marmion and Copeland were included in the extended squad and Marmion on the summer tour too so will surely feature in the future but apart from them what uncapped player deserves a call up to the national team? There arent really any.

Why shoehorn uncapped players into the national side just for the sake of it?

funnyExiledScot wrote:Have I accidentally slipped into a debate as to how much more "super world class" Leinster players are over just "bog standard world class" players at Ulster and Munster??

No you've slipped in on Ronan admitting the standards Leinster players set for admittance to the D4 club that is Ireland International Inc.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Have I accidentally slipped into a debate as to how much more "super world class" Leinster players are over just "bog standard world class" players at Ulster and Munster??

It does make you wonder whether Irish players should wear their provincial shirts for internationals. It would make it easier for the fans to know which ones to watch  

Cyril wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Have I accidentally slipped into a debate as to how much more "super world class" Leinster players are over just "bog standard world class" players at Ulster and Munster??

It does make you wonder whether Irish players should wear their provincial shirts for internationals. It would make it easier for the fans to know which ones to watch  

Well Munster fans tend to wear their Munster jerseys at Ireland games for some reason and ROG claimed to prefer playing for Munster than Ireland so you arent far off the truth.

Cyril wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Have I accidentally slipped into a debate as to how much more "super world class" Leinster players are over just "bog standard world class" players at Ulster and Munster??

It does make you wonder whether Irish players should wear their provincial shirts for internationals. It would make it easier for the fans to know which ones to watch  

It might catch on. Afterall, we have Conor O'Shea regularly over for media work during the 6N, back slapping his Quins English boys.

Cyril wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Have I accidentally slipped into a debate as to how much more "super world class" Leinster players are over just "bog standard world class" players at Ulster and Munster??

It does make you wonder whether Irish players should wear their provincial shirts for internationals. It would make it easier for the fans to know which ones to watch  

Well not really, the Leinster ones hog the ball, the munster ones get all the motm awards from the pundits, the ulster ones get subbed and the Connacht ones are at home watching on TV.

rodders wrote:

Cyril wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Have I accidentally slipped into a debate as to how much more "super world class" Leinster players are over just "bog standard world class" players at Ulster and Munster??

It does make you wonder whether Irish players should wear their provincial shirts for internationals. It would make it easier for the fans to know which ones to watch  

Well not really, the Leinster ones hog the ball, the munster ones get all the motm awards from the pundits, the ulster ones get subbed and the Connacht ones are at home watching on TV.

  

rodders wrote:


Well not really, the Leinster ones hog the ball, the munster ones get all the motm awards from the pundits, the ulster ones get subbed and the Connacht ones are at home watching on TV.

It's important to have fans that know how to play the game. Knowledgeable fans are a good investment in the future of the gyme.

All good comments guys.

Irish rugby is crazy to watch from the outside (in a good way)

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Have I accidentally slipped into a debate as to how much more "super world class" Leinster players are over just "bog standard world class" players at Ulster and Munster??

It does make you wonder whether Irish players should wear their provincial shirts for internationals. It would make it easier for the fans to know which ones to watch  

Well Munster fans tend to wear their Munster jerseys at Ireland games for some reason and ROG claimed to prefer playing for Munster than Ireland so you arent far off the truth.

It has always been traditional to wear your club colours at international matches. In the good old days these used consist of a blazer with a crest. (Apart from anything else, the IRFU market Ireland as 4 Proud Provinces of Ireland. Look at the flag they use - its got the provincial emblems on it).

Its interesting to look back actually at some old Munster games in the early '00s. Hardly anyone wearing Munster jerseys. Munster Rugby is some marketing machine now.

Sin é wrote: Munster Rugby is some marketing machine now.

Nevermind that. It's the extra 30 we need from you guys. Get cracking - there are a few 79th minute substitutions up for grabs in the next two games.

Notch wrote:Well most of those guys were technically capped already. If you're going to include those guys you have to include Dave Kearney- who like Ferris and Fitzgerald got their big break the previous autumn- and you have to include Jackson, Tuohy and Marshall who like Bowe had had some chances as fringe players under the previous regime. O'Donnell and Henderson too.

My point was that none of those players were not really involved in the World Cup in '07, so there were quite a few changes to the '09 Grand Slam winning team.

Big changes in no Horgan, Hickie, Girvan or Stringer who had been a intergral part of the Golden Generation team.

At Ireland games this is what Ireland fans see:

Ireland fans:

this is what Munster fans see:

Munster fans:

I see Best is the only Neutral in that side??? The Ulster crew will feel he's let them down.

SUFTUM!!! Know your own Best! Know your own

That better?

That's the ticket!

It's only my Ulster friends I'm looking out for.

Very good BTW.

Good old Bestie - throws the lineout to his Munster and Leinster colleagues with equal accuracy.