Wales scrum dominance?

by The Saint Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

One of the fundamentals during Wales' 27-6 win over France was the success of our scrum. After having come under much scrutiny and questions relating to fitness, Jenkins and Jones came out firing and sent the much vaunted French scrum into white flag mode. This was quite clear to anyone with any rugby nous, so I find it strange that some people can be so bitter over a little Welsh success. For instance, if we look at Figure 1, we can clearly see Wales getting a very strong foothold in the scrum, allowing Faletau a clean pick-up off the back and quick ball for our backs. The English said, "Jenkins collapsed it."

Figure 1
Wales scrum dominance? - Page 3 Scrum110

Wales scrum dominance? - Page 3 Scrum110

In this next image, one of The Saint's favourites, we clearly see Wales shoving the French scrum backwards and allowing Wales to win a scrum against the head. That's something you don't see very often. That was great play from Wales. The English said, "Jenkins was lying on his belly."

Figure 2
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum210.jpg

Figure's 3 and 4 show the same scrum dominance from different angles.

Figure 3
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum211.jpg

Figure 4
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum212.jpg

Wales in trouble near their own line. It's up to super scrum to ensure ball retention is smooth. They exceed Saint's expectations by once again, sending the French scrum into retreat. The English said. "Jones collapsed it."

Figure 5
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum310.jpg

The following was Saint's next favourite moment. Wales get themselves out of trouble with some outstanding defence, and further stamp their authority on the game by earning a penalty from a total annihilation of France's scrum with their back-up props. Looks like Plan B failed.

Figure 6
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum410.jpg

And the same again.

Figure 7
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum411.jpg

Well I have to admit, we must have been really lucky to get away with this 80 minutes of scrum collapsing. Now, speaking in real terms to the real rugby people, the England scrum got a good pasting from France, and now they're down to their reserve props. Therefore, The Saint can only see scrum time going one way and this is very unfortunate for England. Scrum time dominance will be just one vital factor in trying to get a win at Twickenham, but a very important one none-the-less.

by **Biltong** Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:16 pm

The Saint wrote:I did report it. Nothing was done. Nothing ever gets done if it's against Wales. I know Mike gets some flak from all, but there was a group of posters constantly posting derogative comments about him around the time he got sacked by Bayonne. Nothing got done about that either, which leads us to believe that some get special treatment (none of them Welsh posters of course!).

Any report that is legitimate is actioned, again your "everyone is against Wales" attitude is blinding your judgement.

by The Saint Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:21 pm

And what is non-legitimate about pointing out a group of posters seem to be showing bitter resentment in the manner of their comments, which is in response to some clear Wales scrum dominance highlighted in my OP? I really don't get it Headscratch

.

by No 7&1/2 Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:26 pm

Well you started with the English thing which has nothing to do with everything and still pictures of scrums don't really show squat. A fair few have also said the Welsh do cheat as does everyone.

by The Saint Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:30 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well you started with the English thing which has nothing to do with everything and still pictures of scrums don't really show squat. A fair few have also said the Welsh do cheat as does everyone.

This thread and the previous match thread (Wales vs France) should be enough to explain the "English thing" as you put it. I was merely quoting a group of England supporters. The images clearly show Wales scrum dominance, which is in contrast to the lies being spread about us.

by No 7&1/2 Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:33 pm

No it doesn't. No stills of scrums do.

by Scrumpy Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:34 pm

But its only cheating if you get caught. Wink

by Geordie Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:42 pm

Stills of scrums show dominance...

Yahoo

by Allty Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:44 pm

[quote="Scrumpy"]But its only cheating if you get caught. Wink

[/quote]

I played hooker for over 20 years and didn't ever do a foot up or collapse a scrum I never twisted or lowered I always bound perfectly I always obeyed the laws I never tried to con the ref.

by Scratch Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:46 pm

The Saint wrote:Fair enough Biltong, but can I just ask why neither of the mod team did this when the WRU were being referred to as retards, and Mike Phillips was being gunned for?
I can't see much wrong with my post... It's a post based on the responses on this thread, can't you see posters showing bitter resentment and accusing Wales of cheating? Comes across as double standards.

Double standards?!!!! 606V2 ?!!!!!! Shocked

by Scrumpy Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:51 pm

Allty wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:But its only cheating if you get caught.

I played hooker for over 20 years and didn't ever do a foot up or collapse a scrum I never twisted or lowered I always bound perfectly I always obeyed the laws I never tried to con the ref.

Well played Son.

by The Saint Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:52 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:No it doesn't. No stills of scrums do.

They do. And if you look at the still, you can clearly see on the clock at which point they took place. Feel free to review it, the match is on iPlayer.

by Scratch Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:53 pm

Allty wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:But its only cheating if you get caught.

I played hooker for over 20 years and didn't ever do a foot up or collapse a scrum I never twisted or lowered I always bound perfectly I always obeyed the laws I never tried to con the ref.

well then how can you call yourself a hooker?

by LordDowlais Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:21 pm

From what I saw last Friday compared to the weekend before, for me anyway, it just showed that the Welsh management had given ALL the players a very big kick up the rear end, you could see the intensity in the forwards during the French game compared to the Ireland game and I would like to praise Gatland and co. for the way they have given the players a good bollocking, this was no more epitomised when I saw Gethin Jenkins face strewed with blood whilst taking a well earned rest in the stands when he was replaced by Paul James, and that people was the difference last Friday night, not cheating, not conning the ref, but a bloody good look at themselves and playing to their best. thumbsup

by Allty Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:22 pm

I was a very good hooker never told a lie in my life. Never cheated never dipped I was always kind to the ref

by LordDowlais Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:22 pm

Allty wrote:I was a very good hooker never told a lie in my life. Never cheated never dipped I was always kind to the ref

So you was the Gary Liniker of rugby then. laughing

by jimmyinthewell68 Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:27 pm

i really can't tell what's happening in the scrums ,but personally i always thought Wales played fair and didnt cheat but wished they adopted dark arts approach. you never see a Welsh player infringe opposite player to allow team mate to score a try through the gap like Paul O connell did

by gregortree Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:27 pm

Allty wrote:I was a very good hooker never told a lie in my life. Never cheated never dipped I was always kind to the ref

You played for my Glaws then ? Before Olly Azam rewrote the role.

by quinsforever Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:46 pm

stats regarding scrums in last year's 6N.

page 25 here http://www.irbplayerwelfare.com/pdfs/gameanalysis/6_Nations_Analysis_2013.pdf

in summary...

avg 14 scrums per match. avg own scrum success 82% of all teams.

Wales got the ball out of their own scrum the least and received the highest number of penalties/free kicks, even though France's scrum was statistically quite a lot stronger. This tends to back up the view that Wales want their opposition to concede penalties at the scrum rather than get their own ball out. 1/2P keeps the scoreboard ticking over and off we go.

The numbers from the above report...
Wales 84% success, 13/32 ball out, 19/32 Pen/FK
France 89% success 21/32 ball out, 11/32 Pen/FK
England 72% success 13/21 ball out, 8/21 Pen/FK

on opposition scrums
Wales 28% success, 0/9 ball out/thru90, 9/9 Pen/FK
France 39% success, 3/13 ballout/thru90, 10/13 Pen/FK
England 12% success, 1/4 ball out/thru90, 3/4 Pen/FK

by **Biltong** Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:50 pm

The Saint wrote:
munkian wrote:Its not just here to be honest. There are comments everywhere that our front row 'cheats' to win.

Ask any person who's played in the tight 5 if they've ever 'cheated' and see if they keep a straight face...

I know. It's just bitterness. So it's okay to call Wales cheats, but not okay to point out somebody or a group of people are seemingly acting bitter because Wales earned a good win? It's strange isn't it.

There is a distinct difference in discussing strategies used by teams and calling your fellow posters bitter.

We discuss rugby here, if someone calls the Welsh scrum cheats then argue the point by chalkengng the individual or group to provide video footage to prove their case, if they cannot then it is an empty debate and you move on.

It is however unacceptable to degrade a poster by calling him bitter, a bad loser or whatever else you can think of.

Again the debate in any thread is in regards to the sport and the teams and individuals surrounding it, the posters however are your fellow members with whom you must attempt at all times to maintain a relationship that can propegate mature debate.

The issue here is to have the ability to debate with reason and not with emotion (however passionate you may be about your team) whether your team is called cheats, poor, lacking in game strategy or anything else posters debate.

That is the lesson in all of this.

Debate the opinion of the individual, but do not degrade the poster when you lose the argument.

by Scratch Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:53 pm

Can you clarify your argument Biltong

You are saying it is ok to call teams cheats but not call posters bitter?

by quinsforever Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:56 pm

of course that's what he's saying.

if the welsh team joined in the debate in person then they should expect to be treated like any other poster.

until they do that, they can be treated like any other subjective fact. ie it's not personal.

anyway, back to the topic, what does anything think of the stats from last year's 6N scrums i linked above?

by Allty Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:00 pm

[quote="gregortree"][quote="Allty"]I was a very good hooker never told a lie in my life. Never cheated never dipped I was always kind to the ref[/quote]

You played for my Glaws then ? Before Olly Azam rewrote the role.[/quote]

I was approached but a brief resume of my career will explain

I will have you know that as an U15 I played for the West Wales Choirboys XV and was always first on the team sheet.

As my career developed by the time I reached U18 I was invited to join the Kidderminster Katholick Kats … on its annual Easter Tour to Lourdes

My senior career was mainly C of E teams ending up on the Bench for a combined Jehovah’s and Happy clappers squad

The singing was to die for

by **Biltong** Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:06 pm

Scratch, McCaw is being called a cheat all the time, that is the basis of people's argument.

Now if we take that as an example, McCaw is seen by many as the poster boy for playing on the edge of the law, now you can actually find ample proof of debatable calls where the opposition team is penalised whilst McCaw gets away with offside play, holding on, not coming through the gate, never releasing, falling cleverly on the wrong side of the breakdown.

Half the time any fifty fifty call will go his way, the other half goes your way.

Now those times when fifty fifty calls go the wrong way is where fans bring out the old accusation that he cheats.

In the interpretation of the referee's eyes he made the right call, in different supportsers eyes he didn't.

Sometimes the referee cops it, somtimes McCaw cops it.

Now what we have to accept is that the laws of rugby is wide open to interpretation due to their complexities and the pace of the game.

Whether we talk about a player being a cheat, over rated, has a weakness in defence or whatever else negative comment we can make about a player, we still have to prove our point, be it with video evidence or during a live blog where we are discussing a match.

However, is there a difference in calling a player useless in defence or cheating?

If you want to be precious or sensitive you can go all ballistic and defensive about either, so there is no difference in my view.

If I say George North is cheat, and you challenge me on it, if I can't prove it, why get upset? After all, I then sound like I have sour grapes and has lost the argument.

Now the moral victory here is you have won the debate as I can't provide proof.

So you have the fhoice in how you respond.

Either you say, "bring me proof when you find it, until you can do it your point is void.

Or you say " you are bitter, a bad loser, etc"

The problem is in option two you escalate the situation, and before long the debate is no longer about what happened on the field, but rather the vendetta about what someome has said about your team or player.

by Scratch Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:07 pm

quinsforever wrote:of course that's what he's saying.

if the welsh team joined in the debate in person then they should expect to be treated like any other poster.

until they do that, they can be treated like any other subjective fact. ie it's not personal.

anyway, back to the topic, what does anything think of the stats from last year's 6N scrums i linked above?

Wales are cheats? Run

Reason i asked for clarification on MOD directive is that i find it somewhat odd that we allow accusations of cheating on the one hand and disallow suggestion's of bitterness on the other. The first invites the second and thus perpetuates the problem. it also suggests a double standard both in moderation and conduct.

by **Biltong** Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:10 pm

Scratch wrote:
quinsforever wrote:of course that's what he's saying.

if the welsh team joined in the debate in person then they should expect to be treated like any other poster.

until they do that, they can be treated like any other subjective fact. ie it's not personal.

anyway, back to the topic, what does anything think of the stats from last year's 6N scrums i linked above?

Wales are cheats?

Reason i asked for clarification on MOD directive is that i find it somewhat odd that we allow accusations of cheating on the one hand and disallow suggestion's of bitterness on the other. The first invites the second and thus perpetuates the problem. it also suggests a double standard both in moderation and conduct.

Like I said above, what is the difference in calling a player useless, a cheat, poor in defence, can't catch or whatever. Subjective opinion until proven.

by tazfalklands Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:21 pm

Just had a look at those pics properly to demonstrate the welsh dominance, check
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum212.jpg
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum410.jpg
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum411.jpg
and look where AJ is All on the arm, which is an illeagal bind!!!!!!

Plus he is the one who pops his head up in 411

So Saint has shown that in fact at least AJ cheated in those two scrums!!!!!!!

by Scratch Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:28 pm

Biltong wrote:
Scratch wrote:
quinsforever wrote:of course that's what he's saying.

if the welsh team joined in the debate in person then they should expect to be treated like any other poster.

until they do that, they can be treated like any other subjective fact. ie it's not personal.

anyway, back to the topic, what does anything think of the stats from last year's 6N scrums i linked above?

Wales are cheats?

Reason i asked for clarification on MOD directive is that i find it somewhat odd that we allow accusations of cheating on the one hand and disallow suggestion's of bitterness on the other. The first invites the second and thus perpetuates the problem. it also suggests a double standard both in moderation and conduct.

Like I said above, what is the difference in calling a player useless, a cheat, poor in defence, can't catch or whatever. Subjective opinion until proven.

Cheat is a very different accusation to the others and extremely emotive, surely you can see that? If you can't then there is nothing i can do to explain it.

And in relation to your piece on the analysis of how an argument evolves, if you policed the word cheat the same way you police accusations of bitterness i think you'd find that there would be less bitterness. One begets the other.
Fact is, your analysis is subjective, you think it is ok to use the word cheat and that to question it is 'sensitive' yet accusations of bitterness that result form that- hardly an emotive phrase - elicits greater sensitivity which you deem justified.

if we banned people from accusations of cheating based on your arguments that it is a game, rub of the green etc, ref decisions, 50/50 etc, then perhaps there would be less accusations of bitterness.

by **Biltong** Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:34 pm

Sorry scratch, but I disagree with you, what yoou are suggesting is we should ban every poster who has ever called McCaw a cheat

by ChequeredJersey Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:34 pm

I "bend the rules" when I play if I can get away with it and if it's no dangerous. I assume everyone who ever played flanker does...

by Scratch Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:38 pm

Biltong wrote:Sorry scratch, but I disagree with you, what yoou are suggesting is we should ban every poster who has ever called McCaw a cheat

yeah do it, then the site would be very quiet!

by **Biltong** Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:50 pm

Scratch wrote:
Biltong wrote:Sorry scratch, but I disagree with you, what yoou are suggesting is we should ban every poster who has ever called McCaw a cheat

yeah do it, then the site would be very quiet!

do you understand what I am getting at though?

by The Saint Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:52 pm

Biltong wrote:
The Saint wrote:
munkian wrote:Its not just here to be honest. There are comments everywhere that our front row 'cheats' to win.

Ask any person who's played in the tight 5 if they've ever 'cheated' and see if they keep a straight face...

I know. It's just bitterness. So it's okay to call Wales cheats, but not okay to point out somebody or a group of people are seemingly acting bitter because Wales earned a good win? It's strange isn't it.

There is a distinct difference in discussing strategies used by teams and calling your fellow posters bitter.

We discuss rugby here, if someone calls the Welsh scrum cheats then argue the point by chalkengng the individual or group to provide video footage to prove their case, if they cannot then it is an empty debate and you move on.

It is however unacceptable to degrade a poster by calling him bitter, a bad loser or whatever else you can think of.

Again the debate in any thread is in regards to the sport and the teams and individuals surrounding it, the posters however are your fellow members with whom you must attempt at all times to maintain a relationship that can propegate mature debate.

The issue here is to have the ability to debate with reason and not with emotion (however passionate you may be about your team) whether your team is called cheats, poor, lacking in game strategy or anything else posters debate.

That is the lesson in all of this.

Debate the opinion of the individual, but do not degrade the poster when you lose the argument.

Biltong, the entire point of this article. A challenge to the cheat accusations and I've provided more than enough evidence. But still, the same group of English posters continued with their poor WUMs and accusations, which leads me to believe they're just acting bitter over a Wales win. I don't believe I degraded any individual poster. Also, I was accused of being anti-English by posting this factual thread. And around two weeks ago a poster openly called me an idiot and had no action taken against his account.

by gregortree Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:54 pm

Infamy !

by Scratch Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:56 pm

Biltong wrote:
Scratch wrote:
Biltong wrote:Sorry scratch, but I disagree with you, what yoou are suggesting is we should ban every poster who has ever called McCaw a cheat

yeah do it, then the site would be very quiet!
do you understand what I am getting at though?

Not really, you are very inconsistent.

Earlier in this very thread you give Saint a final warning for gunning for the england team or it's supporters.

there is a perception of double standards regarding Wales being slated on here that Saint is somewhat obsessed with and i have sympathy with him, if not the manner in which he manifests it.

You suggest that England's team cannot be gunned for and yet it is okay to call players cheats…just not english players?

I am sure you can see that the arbitrary and unequivocal nature of such directives within the same thread cause resentment and, dare i say it, bitterness.

by The Saint Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:57 pm

Biltong wrote:

If I say George North is cheat, and you challenge me on it, if I can't prove it, why get upset? After all, I then sound like I have sour grapes and has lost the argument.

So for instance, I challenge the cheat accusations by producing facts of Wales' scrum dominance, and infer that some posters that refuse to acknowledge this are bitter, which is the same as sounding like they have sour grapes.

by Cyril Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:59 pm

The Saint wrote:And around two weeks ago a poster openly called me an idiot and had no action taken against his account.

Perhaps he provided enough evidence (with images to back up his argument)? Just a thought.

by **Biltong** Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:59 pm

Scratch wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Scratch wrote:
Biltong wrote:Sorry scratch, but I disagree with you, what yoou are suggesting is we should ban every poster who has ever called McCaw a cheat

yeah do it, then the site would be very quiet!
do you understand what I am getting at though?

Not really, you are very inconsistent.

Earlier in this very thread you give Saint a final warning for gunning for the england team or it's supporters.

there is a perception of double standards regarding Wales being slated on here that Saint is somewhat obsessed with and i have sympathy with him, if not the manner in which he manifests it.

You suggest that England's team cannot be gunned for and yet it is okay to call players cheats…just not english players?

I am sure you can see that the arbitrary and unequivocal nature of such directives within the same thread cause resentment and, dare i say it, bitterness.

Gunning for posters, the england team I referred to in this instance as a generalisation of the zenglish as a nation.

by The Saint Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:00 pm

Scratch wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Scratch wrote:
Biltong wrote:Sorry scratch, but I disagree with you, what yoou are suggesting is we should ban every poster who has ever called McCaw a cheat

yeah do it, then the site would be very quiet!
do you understand what I am getting at though?

Not really, you are very inconsistent.

Earlier in this very thread you give Saint a final warning for gunning for the england team or it's supporters.

there is a perception of double standards regarding Wales being slated on here that Saint is somewhat obsessed with and i have sympathy with him, if not the manner in which he manifests it.

You suggest that England's team cannot be gunned for and yet it is okay to call players cheats…just not english players?

I am sure you can see that the arbitrary and unequivocal nature of such directives within the same thread cause resentment and, dare i say it, bitterness.

That's how it would seem... To be honest, I think Biltong does a good job as a moderator and has always been a positive poster (not easy for a South African on a foreign forum). The mods work as a team though, and let us not forget that some are against The Saint. Basically I could type "I agree", someone would complain about it and I'll get told off.

by quinsforever Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:28 pm

Cyril wrote:
The Saint wrote:And around two weeks ago a poster openly called me an idiot and had no action taken against his account.
Perhaps he provided enough evidence (with images to back up his argument)? Just a thought.

some things are just self evident Wink

by quinsforever Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:30 pm

i see none of you have any interest in the actual facts from last years 6N scrums though.

Wales very obviously aim to win penalties from scrums. They also very obviously are involved in more scrums collapsing given the number of pens/FKs awarded. Cheating? prob no more or less than anyone else. But targeting scrums as a way of getting penalties rather than possession? 100%. So in this respect Wales are a very cynical scrummaging unit, looking to identify and milk any ineptitude displayed by a ref.

by Scratch Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:34 pm

quinsforever wrote:i see none of you have any interest in the actual facts from last years 6N scrums though.

Wales very obviously aim to win penalties from scrums. They also very obviously are involved in more scrums collapsing given the number of pens/FKs awarded. Cheating? prob no more or less than anyone else. But targeting scrums as a way of getting penalties rather than possession? 100%. So in this respect Wales are a very cynical scrummaging unit, looking to identify and milk any ineptitude displayed by a ref.

and that is why no one is interested in your stats, because the point you wanted to make was obvious from the outset.

There is much more interesting info in that report, such as the huge decline in tries being scored

ObViously in Wales that is because we are cynical and just go for scrum pens, but why is it the case elsewhere?

IMO it is because defenses are better and teams are smarter, not cynical, in exploiting the rules and their strengths.

by quinsforever Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:44 pm

well ireland showed that if you dont concede penalties, wales lose. it's as simple as that.

if england concede less than 10 penalties they are going to win. Ireland conceded 9 to Wales's 16. And once a gap opens up, so do spaces on the park and the scoreline widens.

by quinsforever Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:48 pm

in 6N last year, Wales had 73 Pen/FK in their favour, and 46 against.
France 55-50
England 64-60
Ire 63-63
Sco 56-74
Ita 48-66

And 28 of wales's Pen/FKs were from scrums, vs
France 25
Ita 21
Eng 17
Ire 11
Sco 9

So if a team can keep the penalty count down against Wales they will win. Simple as. Thats why Wales cant buy a win vs SH teams. Because they dont feel the need to infringe in order to slow the rampaging dragon.

by Scratch Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:50 pm

pen count wales france was 10 each and wales turned them into coq au vin….pen count is not a reliable way to predict outcome

by Scrumpy Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:53 pm

So are you saying cheats don't always prosper? Wink

by Seagultaf Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:56 pm

Gethin has never been a powerful scrumager at test level but has always held his own. Adam on the other hand, until this season's new laws, has been peerless in the scrum, and also knows all the tricks such as binding on the arm when the Ref isn't looking. This season though he has clearly struggled, until Friday and I suspect that had a lot to do with the 20stone of Anglo Oz beef behind him!

With AWJ likely to be fit, he will rightly take his place next to Charteris, so the impressive Jake Ball won't be playing and I suspect this will have a significant effect on the success of the Welsh scrum.

by SecretFly Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:57 pm

quinsforever wrote:in 6N last year, Wales had 73 Pen/FK in their favour, and 46 against.
France 55-50
England 64-60
Ire 63-63
Sco 56-74
Ita 48-66

And 28 of wales's Pen/FKs were from scrums, vs
France 25
Ita 21
Eng 17
Ire 11
Sco 9

You'd kinda wonder how France came last looking at those though...which kinda questions the theory too

by Scrumpy Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:58 pm

How did we let Ball slip through the rfu system?

by quinsforever Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:00 pm

Scratch wrote:pen count wales france was 10 each and wales turned them into coq au vin….pen count is not a reliable way to predict outcome

wales got 15 points from penalties vs france.

penalty count combined with where they were concede will give you a pretty good idea of the score.

penalties conceded in attack in the oppo 22 for example, are safe.

by Jhamer25 Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:11 pm

Scrumpy wrote:How did we let Ball slip through the rfu system?

Apparently he was one of the most promising lock prospects in Australia, so they let him slip as well.

I think the Scarlet's research for his welsh heritage has helped us out a lot. Thanks guys, he's a keeper and one for the future for us.

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