Wales scrum dominance?

First topic message reminder :

One of the fundamentals during Wales' 27-6 win over France was the success of our scrum. After having come under much scrutiny and questions relating to fitness, Jenkins and Jones came out firing and sent the much vaunted French scrum into white flag mode. This was quite clear to anyone with any rugby nous, so I find it strange that some people can be so bitter over a little Welsh success. For instance, if we look at Figure 1, we can clearly see Wales getting a very strong foothold in the scrum, allowing Faletau a clean pick-up off the back and quick ball for our backs. The English said, "Jenkins collapsed it."

Figure 1


In this next image, one of The Saint's favourites, we clearly see Wales shoving the French scrum backwards and allowing Wales to win a scrum against the head. That's something you don't see very often. That was great play from Wales. The English said, "Jenkins was lying on his belly."

Figure 2
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum210.jpg

Figure's 3 and 4 show the same scrum dominance from different angles.

Figure 3
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum211.jpg

Figure 4
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum212.jpg

Wales in trouble near their own line. It's up to super scrum to ensure ball retention is smooth. They exceed Saint's expectations by once again, sending the French scrum into retreat. The English said. "Jones collapsed it."

Figure 5
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum310.jpg

The following was Saint's next favourite moment. Wales get themselves out of trouble with some outstanding defence, and further stamp their authority on the game by earning a penalty from a total annihilation of France's scrum with their back-up props. Looks like Plan B failed.

Figure 6
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum410.jpg

And the same again.

Figure 7
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum411.jpg

Well I have to admit, we must have been really lucky to get away with this 80 minutes of scrum collapsing. Now, speaking in real terms to the real rugby people, the England scrum got a good pasting from France, and now they're down to their reserve props. Therefore, The Saint can only see scrum time going one way and this is very unfortunate for England. Scrum time dominance will be just one vital factor in trying to get a win at Twickenham, but a very important one none-the-less.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Farrell has kicked more than any other 10 so far this six nations.

Not true - according to ESPN, Farrell has kicked from hand 23 times in 3 matches (11 against France, 5 against Scotland and 7 against Ireland). By comparison Sexton has kicked 37 times ( 14, 14 and 9 in his 3 matches). Haven't checked all the other FHs, but it looks like Priestland has kicked even more often.

Dave is not renowned for fact checking, and I c.b.a.
but thanks DummyHalf for looking it up.

dummy_half wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Farrell has kicked more than any other 10 so far this six nations.

Not true - according to ESPN, Farrell has kicked from hand 23 times in 3 matches (11 against France, 5 against Scotland and 7 against Ireland). By comparison Sexton has kicked 37 times ( 14, 14 and 9 in his 3 matches). Haven't checked all the other FHs, but it looks like Priestland has kicked even more often.

yes thank you, nothing like throwing some random numbers out there and some swot waisting his time checking them   

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Farrell has kicked more than any other 10 so far this six nations.

Not true - according to ESPN, Farrell has kicked from hand 23 times in 3 matches (11 against France, 5 against Scotland and 7 against Ireland). By comparison Sexton has kicked 37 times ( 14, 14 and 9 in his 3 matches). Haven't checked all the other FHs, but it looks like Priestland has kicked even more often.

yes thank you, nothing like throwing some random numbers out there and some swot waisting his time checking them   

Now that is how one sidesteps a random comment that has been disproved, eh?   

"Hooker Richard Hibbard says Wales' win over England to clinch the 2013 Six Nations title will have no bearing on what happens at Twickenham on 9 March." Glad he clarified that.

Any news yet on that link of Adam jones saying he cheated v England last year?

 what ref ? Me ? I didn't fall down ! honest !

I think the Monsieur Poite will be having a very close look at the engage and put in.
He won't want any of this dirt diving nonsense. Bomber will have alerted him.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Any news yet on that link of Adam jones saying he cheated v England last year?

http://www.rugbysouls.com/t536t200-wales-scrum-cheated-adam-jones-concedes

But then you get English players going on about 'revenge' so its not entirely true...

munkian wrote:But then you get English players going on about 'revenge' so its not entirely true...

which ones, havent read any of the English players saying that.

LordDowlais wrote:

TJ wrote:MUnkian - there is plenty if you want to see it - especially after the last seasons Scotland Wales game where it was obvious to all neutrals (with the benefit of replays /multiple angles) what was going on - Wales milked penalties by much trickery and were roundly criticised  for it.  Fortunatly its not as easy under the law changes - this is the reason Jones has been less effective as he cannot use his "cleverness" so much

Yeh, ok, we only beat Scotland because we were using trickery in the scrum, come on, please this needs to stop now, Scotland could have still been playing now and they would not have scored a try in that game, Hibbard scored the only try in that game and most of our penalties came from the breakdown if I remember correctly, this is starting to get annoying now, all sides are guilty of the dark arts so people need to stop using this as an excuse for their sides losing.

What do you expect, they say this every year. Wales being 'roundly criticised' for cheating against Scotland is another lie. It's funny that we get called cheats every year we beat Scotland, we've been getting away with it for a while.

Look

Cheating is fine - Biltong said so

Wales are cheats and we are bloody good at it.

We cheat at every opportunity. Our pitch even cheats.

No bragging then.

Sure, we'll leave the bragging to England with their more 'consistent' record in the 6 nations

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Ignoring any Welsh cheating or not in that match (someone posted a video of all the scrums and I did my best to analyse it a while ago), Walsh's refereeing, including the Youngs "incident" was abysmal. Man has too much of an ego to be given any power. At one point he sent Robshaw away and refused to talk to him, so the lack of communication with the referee went both ways. He is the only referee I'd be happy to never see referee any of my teams ever again

Here's your next Christmas present:

Spoiler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqCPnBdNeow

Probably the best video evidence of Wales cheating at the scrum 1.05

Scratch wrote:Look

Cheating is fine - Biltong said so

Wales are cheats and we are bloody good at it.

We cheat at every opportunity. Our pitch even cheats.

Oh hang on mate, I said cheating happens, I didn't say it is fine.   

there is a big difference between cheating, and using the scrums to try to get penalties rather than getting the ball out.

wales clearly do the latter, and while its clearly within the laws, converting scrum dominance into penalties by not gettting the ball out when they clearly could and putting pressure on the ref to penalise the weaker scrum, leaves opposing fans with a bad taste.

that is most definitely not a part of the beautiful game.

Biltong wrote:

Scratch wrote:Look

Cheating is fine - Biltong said so

Wales are cheats and we are bloody good at it.

We cheat at every opportunity. Our pitch even cheats.

Oh hang on mate, I said cheating happens, I didn't say it is fine.   

strictly speaking bilt said pointing out that cheating happens is fine. which of course it is.

Quins - wales have gone further tho - as have other teams at times. Against Scotland last year they took the initial hit then relaxed - thus making it look like Scotland pushed early and conned the ref - thats cheating in anyones book. But they got away with it.

I don't like this as a tactic - even playing for pens at the scrums Is dull rugby

quinsforever wrote:there is a big difference between cheating, and using the scrums to try to get penalties rather than getting the ball out.

wales clearly do the latter, and while its clearly within the laws, converting scrum dominance into penalties by not gettting the ball out when they clearly could and putting pressure on the ref to penalise the weaker scrum, leaves opposing fans with a bad taste.

that is most definitely not a part of the beautiful game.

nor is selling player allocation tickets   

TJ wrote:Quins - wales have gone further tho - as have other teams at times.  Against Scotland last year they took the initial hit then relaxed - thus making it look like Scotland pushed early and conned the ref - thats cheating in anyones book.  But they got away with it.

I don't like this as a tactic - even playing for pens at the scrums Is dull rugby

brilliant

now it's a conspiracy….have you ever played rugby in the tight 5?

quinsforever wrote:there is a big difference between cheating, and using the scrums to try to get penalties rather than getting the ball out.

wales clearly do the latter, and while its clearly within the laws, converting scrum dominance into penalties by not gettting the ball out when they clearly could and putting pressure on the ref to penalise the weaker scrum, leaves opposing fans with a bad taste.

that is most definitely not a part of the beautiful game.

I don't think Wales are the only ones doing it, but it is negative play either way.

Yeah, pretty sure Scotland manage to play dull rugby without any help from Wales.

Anything else we're to blame for ? Global Warming ? Trouble in the middle east ? May fupping up a certain try ?

munkian wrote:Yeah, pretty sure Scotland manage to play dull rugby without any help from Wales.

Anything else we're to blame for ? Global Warming ? Trouble in the middle east ? May fupping up a certain try ?

Yeah all of that is Wales' fault. I remember I spoke out about the Wales-haters a while back and was criticised for it. Seems more people are now joining The Saint's crusade.

Adam Jones admitted it afterwards. No conspiracy just a simple fact. That day as on others they conned the ref into giving them scrum pens when infact they were cheating. I have seen others do it - but Adam Jones is the master. Fortunately the new laws reduce the scope for this sort of cheating at scrums

So you are literally hating the player rather than the game ?   

I bet Tthe saints hidden posts are all screaming about welsh haters aren't they. The cheating at scrums is a fact acknowledged by Jones himself and well know to others in the game. He is man enough to admit it so man up and accept it.

If 'they' conned the ref as you so eloquently put it, it's a conspiracy, and they didn't cheat as they didn't break law of the game. They won a penalty, you can spin it how you like.

Please supply evidence of Adam Jones admitting he/they/anyone 'cheated'

Fact is this tactic is no different than any other employed by the tight 5 to win the contest…..and please answer, have you ever played tight 5 because if you haven't you really have no idea what you are talking about

munkian wrote:So you are literally hating the player rather than the game ?   

Nope - try reading. I really like Adam Jones - I think he is a genuine charectar and great fun. I hate any team who cheats and he is not alone in doing this. Its not the sort of rugby I like to see.

None so blind as those who will not see. Jones has been man enough to admit to cheating - so you guys simply have to accept it has happened.

Scratch wrote:If 'they' conned the ref as you so eloquently put it, it's a conspiracy, and they didn't cheat as they didn't break law of the game. They won a penalty, you can spin it how you like.

Where is the conspiracy? Not taking the hit is against the rules of the game ie cheating.

TJ wrote:I bet Tthe saints hidden posts are all screaming about welsh haters aren't they.  The cheating at scrums  is a fact acknowledged by Jones himself and well know to others in the game.  He is man enough to admit it so man up and accept it.

Well leave your childish, petty posts off my threads then. This isn't a whinge thread, it's a Wales scrum dominance thread .

TJ wrote:

Scratch wrote:If 'they' conned the ref as you so eloquently put it, it's a conspiracy, and they didn't cheat as they didn't break law of the game. They won a penalty, you can spin it how you like.

Where is the conspiracy?  Not taking the hit is against the rules of the game ie cheating.

so you haven't played tight 5

so, for you information, you can't avoid taking a hit in the front row, after 28 years as a prop i can assure you it is impossible to avoid being 'hit' by the opposition front row when the scrum engages.

please advise where in the LAWS of the game it says 'not taking the hit is against the rules'

The Saint wrote:

TJ wrote:I bet Tthe saints hidden posts are all screaming about welsh haters aren't they.  The cheating at scrums  is a fact acknowledged by Jones himself and well know to others in the game.  He is man enough to admit it so man up and accept it.

Well leave your childish, petty posts off my threads then. This isn't a whinge thread, it's a Wales scrum dominance thread .

I'm not sure whether you're too blinded to see it, or if you're on the wind-up.

I hope, more for the sake of your intelligence than anything else, it's the latter.

TJ wrote:

munkian wrote:So you are literally hating the player rather than the game ?   

Nope - try reading.  I really like Adam Jones - I think he is a genuine charectar and great fun.  I hate any team who cheats and he is not alone in doing this.  Its not the sort of rugby I like to see.

None so blind as those who will not see.  Jones has been man enough to admit to cheating - so you guys simply have to accept it has happened.

I hate any team who cheats and he is not alone in doing this

So you really like a cheat, AJ, but hate a team of cheats?

Your argument is nonsense.

Can't you read ? This is Saints thread. Please don't scribble all over it.

quinsforever wrote:there is a big difference between cheating, and using the scrums to try to get penalties rather than getting the ball out.

wales clearly do the latter, and while its clearly within the laws, converting scrum dominance into penalties by not gettting the ball out when they clearly could and putting pressure on the ref to penalise the weaker scrum, leaves opposing fans with a bad taste.

that is most definitely not a part of the beautiful game.

England circa 2003 and thereabouts?

Scratch wrote:

TJ wrote:

munkian wrote:So you are literally hating the player rather than the game ?   

Nope - try reading.  I really like Adam Jones - I think he is a genuine charectar and great fun.  I hate any team who cheats and he is not alone in doing this.  Its not the sort of rugby I like to see.

None so blind as those who will not see.  Jones has been man enough to admit to cheating - so you guys simply have to accept it has happened.

I hate any team who cheats and he is not alone in doing this

So you really like a cheat, AJ, but hate a team of cheats?

Your argument is nonsense.

I like Jones the man, I dislike any team that decides to cheat to get penalties.  Neil back handling in the scrum and getting away with it for another example

In the Scotland / Wales game last year it was clearly a tactic that had been worked out and practices - Hibbard as much as said so and Jones admitted it by inference in a number of interviews.

Now I know you welsh guys cannot take any criticism - but this is a fact, it happened and every neutral knows it. Continue in your denialand your victim mentality of "everyone hates us" if you want. It will never change the facts

Scratch wrote:

TJ wrote:

Scratch wrote:If 'they' conned the ref as you so eloquently put it, it's a conspiracy, and they didn't cheat as they didn't break law of the game. They won a penalty, you can spin it how you like.

Where is the conspiracy?  Not taking the hit is against the rules of the game ie cheating.

so  you haven't played tight 5

so, for you information, you can't avoid taking a hit in the front row, after 28 years as a prop i can assure you it is impossible to avoid being 'hit' by the opposition front row when the scrum engages.

please advise where in the LAWS of the game it says 'not taking the hit is against the rules'

Not taking the hit is given as a penalty on occasions - if you go soft on the hit under the old laws then it makes it look like the opposition are early push.

TJ wrote:

Now I know you welsh guys cannot take any criticism - but this is a fact, it happened and every neutral knows it.  Continue in your denialand your victim mentality of "everyone hates us" if you want.  It will never change the facts

  If TJ opinion counted as fact, this rugby world would be a very bleak place... We'll just forget about all our wins in the last 3 tournaments. We've lost to only Ireland, twice, and that's because they 'outcheated' us, I guess?

Scratch wrote:

TJ wrote:

Scratch wrote:If 'they' conned the ref as you so eloquently put it, it's a conspiracy, and they didn't cheat as they didn't break law of the game. They won a penalty, you can spin it how you like.

Where is the conspiracy?  Not taking the hit is against the rules of the game ie cheating.

so  you haven't played tight 5

so, for you information, you can't avoid taking a hit in the front row, after 28 years as a prop i can assure you it is impossible to avoid being 'hit' by the opposition front row when the scrum engages.

please advise where in the LAWS of the game it says 'not taking the hit is against the rules'

It's amazing how educated someone could become after a little bit of reading. Too bad for him I guess.

There are two separate arguement here.

Wales do have a dominant scrum, it's the reason why the props and hookers were chosen for the Lions - and not just this last year.

The only reason why Wales can "cheat " is because of the dominance. It's the same reason why people think mcCaw cheats. That fact he's been consistently the best seven for the best part of a decade is because he's the best which then allows him to push the boundaries .

And on which planet does a team have to move the ball out of a scrum?

I can garuntee that if the English or Scottish props think they can "con" the ref for a pen they will.

There are two separate arguement here.

Wales do have a dominant scrum, it's the reason why the props and hookers were chosen for the Lions - and not just this last year.

The only reason why Wales can "cheat " is because of the dominance. It's the same reason why people think mcCaw cheats. That fact he's been consistently the best seven for the best part of a decade is because he's the best which then allows him to push the boundaries .

And on which planet does a team have to move the ball out of a scrum?

I can garuntee that if the English or Scottish props think they can "con" the ref for a pen they will.

TJ wrote:

Scratch wrote:

TJ wrote:

Scratch wrote:If 'they' conned the ref as you so eloquently put it, it's a conspiracy, and they didn't cheat as they didn't break law of the game. They won a penalty, you can spin it how you like.

Where is the conspiracy?  Not taking the hit is against the rules of the game ie cheating.

so  you haven't played tight 5

so, for you information, you can't avoid taking a hit in the front row, after 28 years as a prop i can assure you it is impossible to avoid being 'hit' by the opposition front row when the scrum engages.

please advise where in the LAWS of the game it says 'not taking the hit is against the rules'

Not taking the hit is given as a penalty on occasions - if you go soft on the hit under the old laws then it makes it look like the opposition are early push.

now you are embarrassing yourself further, if that is possible…you know nothing about the scrum.

The Saint wrote:

TJ wrote:

Now I know you welsh guys cannot take any criticism - but this is a fact, it happened and every neutral knows it.  Continue in your denialand your victim mentality of "everyone hates us" if you want.  It will never change the facts

  If TJ opinion counted as fact, this rugby world would be a very bleak place... We'll just forget about all our wins in the last 3 tournaments. We've lost to only Ireland, twice, and that's because they 'outcheated' us, I guess?

TJ
Happy to be criticized by anyone who knows anything about scrummaging but since you don't i guess that makes you a cheat.

As for the rest of this post, it shows you up as having nowhere to go but the tired old denial/victim mentality lines. In my experience the most successful teams always have haters, because they are jealous. Now it's Wales turn because we are the best side in the 6  Nations on results. You have no argument nor knowledge regarding the scrum and keep shooting yourself in the foot - aim higher.

Not going to talk on the specifics.  

But in the general, yes - it was possible with the old rules to play tricks with the ref's eyes and mind by playing little games to make the opposition pack look like they had engaged early.  It's documented amongst players themselves, suggesting those are some of the tricks that might be played during the old rules period.

So it was doable and it was often a ploy (not just by International sides, I'm sure clubs tried it too).  Stall on the engage and if the opposition lunges more forward, the ref can be fooled that they've gone miliseconds too early.  A casual ref mightn't call the opposition up on it (and therefore the ploy might be avoided then)  - but a pedantic ref very well could ping harshly.

Thankyou secretfly.

I ain't embarrassing myself at all - Everyone knows what was going on as in secret flys post.. The only folk looking stupid are those who deny this happened despite the admissions from Hibbard and Jones. its nothing to do with hating Wales and I have no victim mentality - its the welsh fans who decry any criticism as Welsh hating who look foolish.

I thought we were talking about collapsing the scrum not tricking the ref into early engage? Show me a team that hasn't tried that?

Scratch - I played hooker once - never again.  Nasty smelly place full of hairy men grunting - I went back to being a back after that "checks hairdo and applies moisturiser"

TJ wrote:Thankyou secretfly.

I ain't embarrassing myself at all - Everyone knows what was going on as in secret flys post..  The only folk looking stupid are those who deny this happened despite the admissions from Hibbard and Jones.  its nothing to do with hating Wales and I have no victim mentality - its the welsh fans who decry any criticism as Welsh hating who look foolish.

Where?

As far as our exchanges it was you who brought up hating Wales, but your posts are so nonsensical it is clear why you have become the victim of derision.

Can you state yes or no whether you ever played tight 5 or indeed rugby at all?

What secretly is referring to is all within the law, not 'rules' as they don't exist. There is no cheating and you have failed to explain what law the Welsh are cheating at and also, despite requests, to provide the evidence that AJ and now Hibbard have admitted cheating. Where is it? Where do they say they cheated TJ?

Don't fall back on Welsh fans being defensive/victims's of Welsh hating when your argument does not hold up to scrutiny and you have nowhere else to go.