Wales scrum dominance?

First topic message reminder :

One of the fundamentals during Wales' 27-6 win over France was the success of our scrum. After having come under much scrutiny and questions relating to fitness, Jenkins and Jones came out firing and sent the much vaunted French scrum into white flag mode. This was quite clear to anyone with any rugby nous, so I find it strange that some people can be so bitter over a little Welsh success. For instance, if we look at Figure 1, we can clearly see Wales getting a very strong foothold in the scrum, allowing Faletau a clean pick-up off the back and quick ball for our backs. The English said, "Jenkins collapsed it."

Figure 1


In this next image, one of The Saint's favourites, we clearly see Wales shoving the French scrum backwards and allowing Wales to win a scrum against the head. That's something you don't see very often. That was great play from Wales. The English said, "Jenkins was lying on his belly."

Figure 2
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum210.jpg

Figure's 3 and 4 show the same scrum dominance from different angles.

Figure 3
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum211.jpg

Figure 4
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum212.jpg

Wales in trouble near their own line. It's up to super scrum to ensure ball retention is smooth. They exceed Saint's expectations by once again, sending the French scrum into retreat. The English said. "Jones collapsed it."

Figure 5
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum310.jpg

The following was Saint's next favourite moment. Wales get themselves out of trouble with some outstanding defence, and further stamp their authority on the game by earning a penalty from a total annihilation of France's scrum with their back-up props. Looks like Plan B failed.

Figure 6
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum410.jpg

And the same again.

Figure 7
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum411.jpg

Well I have to admit, we must have been really lucky to get away with this 80 minutes of scrum collapsing. Now, speaking in real terms to the real rugby people, the England scrum got a good pasting from France, and now they're down to their reserve props. Therefore, The Saint can only see scrum time going one way and this is very unfortunate for England. Scrum time dominance will be just one vital factor in trying to get a win at Twickenham, but a very important one none-the-less.

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:in 6N last year, Wales had 73 Pen/FK in their favour, and 46 against.
France 55-50
England 64-60
Ire 63-63
Sco 56-74
Ita 48-66

And 28 of wales's Pen/FKs were from scrums, vs
France 25
Ita 21
Eng 17
Ire 11
Sco 9

You'd kinda wonder how France came last looking at those though...which kinda questions the theory too

not at all. they failed to turn scum dominance into penalties, and they had the lowest place kicking % conversion (70%) with the shortest range. they scored less penalties (10) than any other team.

they had only two less pens/FKs from scum dominance than Wales?  
They didn't turn those penalties into scores though.  I get you.  

But that goes back to Halfpenny.  It isn't really so much about Welsh scrum dominance in gaining penalties but what their 15 could do with the chances they give him.

Halfpenny is the ingredient that determines why sides don't want giving away scrum penalties against Wales.  It makes their scrum more effective than it might be had they a less potent kicker.

In other words, Dallaglio might be writing about how much the English efforts might be improved by taking Halfpenny out of the game.

SecretFly wrote:they had only two less pens/FKs from scum dominance than Wales?  
They didn't turn those penalties into scores though.  I get you.  

But that goes back to Halfpenny.  It isn't really so much about Welsh scrum dominance in gaining penalties but what their 15 could do with the chances they give him.

Halfpenny is the ingredient that determines why sides don't want giving away scrum penalties against Wales.  It makes their scrum more effective than it might be had they a less potent kicker.

In other words, Dallaglio might be writing about how much the English efforts might be improved by taking Halfpenny out of the game.

my original data understated the french dominance at scrum time. and understated how effective the Welsh were in winning penalties at scrumtime.

they got 26 penalties from 54 scrums (got the ball out 28 times)
vs Wales got 28 penalties from 41 scrums (got ball out 13 times)

Lancaster has said in a recent interview his scouts failed him on that one though they got Ben Morgan.

I think Morgan made it clear that playing for Wales never really came into his mind though it is a shame.

He did AFTER he was picked, he was rather non committal in previous interviews.

I thought that Morgan had said that he was very grateful to the Scarlets (and Wales) for getting a chance in professional rugby, but that he always felt that he was English (bon and bred).

I think keeping his own counsel on the decision was partially out of respect to Wales and the region that helped his career.

It might have been a fairly easy decision but communicating it is difficult when you're being courted by two nations.

Yeah, I'm sure there was a case of not burning bridges and not trying to look like hedging his bets.

The Vunipola Brothers sound 'Welsher' than me though   

We have locks. Australia need some.

munkian wrote:Yeah, I'm sure there was a case of not burning bridges and not trying to look like hedging his bets.

Yeah, there was probably a bit of that. International rugby is a strange thing. A sudden, long-term injury and then players coming through in your place might mean you having to choose another option. There was certainly no mileage in spouting off.

I think he handled it pretty well. He seems a pretty composed lad and not prone to outbursts.

I'm just glad we've now got two genuine options as (with Easter seemingly out of the picture post-2011) England had a pretty bare cupboard at 8 a couple of years ago.

I'm glad we haven't capped Hanno, one spikey wing/FB is enough

Cyril wrote:

munkian wrote:Yeah, I'm sure there was a case of not burning bridges and not trying to look like hedging his bets.

Yeah, there was probably a bit of that. International rugby is a strange thing. A sudden, long-term injury and then players coming through in your place might mean you having to choose another option. There was certainly no mileage in spouting off.

I think he handled it pretty well. He seems a pretty composed lad and not prone to outbursts.

I'm just glad we've now got two genuine options as (with Easter seemingly out of the picture post-2011) England had a pretty bare cupboard at 8 a couple of years ago.

I think 8 is an are where most International teams would struggle if they were missing their 1st choice now. I guess we'd have Ryan Jones but he's not particularly match fit

I'd include Ewers and Dickinson as potential aswell. 4 options at 8 is nice to have.

Other positions are not so good...

Yeah, I guess we have 'options' too but not like for like in terms of quality

I know this thread has elements of a WUm, but it does highlight one of the areas where I think we could struggle next week. Marler may have improved his scrummaging and be better suited by the revised scrum set procedure, but Dave Wilson struggled badly against Ireland (unsurprising given he is only just back from injury), and I would reckon on the Welsh front row being both stronger and cleverer than Ireland's.

I definitely hope Hartley is spending this fortnight learning how to get a quick strike on the ball , so that we can get it in and out of the scrus quickly before the scrum dissintegrates...

Then again, we were quite clearly second best in the scrum v Ireland (at least while both starting front rows were on - we had parity when the replacements were on, but this may have been as much Ireland being weaker as us improving) and still came away with the win.

A question for the Welsh guys though - would you pick the better scrummaging Paul James at loose head with the intention of really pressing home your advantage in this position, and accept you will loose a bit of effectiveness around the park?

dummy_half wrote:I know this thread has elements of a WUm, but it does highlight one of the areas where I think we could struggle next week. Marler may have improved his scrummaging and be better suited by the revised scrum set procedure, but Dave Wilson struggled badly against Ireland (unsurprising given he is only just back from injury), and I would reckon on the Welsh front row being both stronger and cleverer than Ireland's.

I definitely hope Hartley is spending this fortnight learning how to get a quick strike on the ball , so that we can get it in and out of the scrus quickly before the scrum dissintegrates...

Then again, we were quite clearly second best in the scrum v Ireland (at least while both starting front rows were on - we had parity when the replacements were on, but this may have been as much Ireland being weaker as us improving) and still came away with the win.

A question for the Welsh guys though - would you pick the better scrummaging Paul James at loose head with the intention of really pressing home your advantage in this position, and accept you will loose a bit of effectiveness around the park?

Its a very tough one as Gethin is very good in the loose and the breakdown - with Cole gone you lose a great scrummager and alot of work at the breakdown so keeping Gethin on would press our advantage there.

James is a good scrummager but also seems to give away penalties at the scrum (in the Aviva) along with Wilson (dirty Baarf)

Its a toughie.


I think Gatland will start with Melon

i'm just not as excited about the wales game as the ireland game, for the simple reason that the scrum, and breakdown interpretation are likely to be all important.

eng v ire was a pretty even match-up in most set piece areas so it really looked like being a close tactical battle with the result depending on which 10 moved the pieces around the best.

i fear that eng v wal could descend into a scrum penalty fest with both teams desperately trying to con the ref to avoid conceding kickable penalties.

I'd back Halfpence to kick over 'Iceman' every time.

Still not sure where this whole 'Wales only kick penalties' thing is coming from mind. We scored tries twice in the first 5/10 mins of 2 games so far.

quins

Looking on the bright side, at least we are at Twickenham, so the pitch should stand up to the scrummaging.

dummy_half wrote:quins

Looking on the bright side, at least we are at Twickenham, so the pitch should stand up to the scrummaging.

No excuses then ?

LordDowlais wrote:

dummy_half wrote:quins

Looking on the bright side, at least we are at Twickenham, so the pitch should stand up to the scrummaging.

No excuses then ?

I bet Adam and Gethin still go down trying to win Penalties!   

I do think the new laws have helped reduce the trickery in scrums - but its obvious which teams try to scrummage fairly and win that way and which teams try to milk pens.

I thought Ireland / England both teams actually tried to scrum not to milk pens.

Backfired for us...

LordD

I'm expecting Wales to have the edge in the scrum, and also that the pitch should be good enough that slipping around is not an iissue (unlike Murrayfield...).

I do hope though that Poitre referees the scrum fairly, and isn't as one-sided as Walsh was last year (not that your scrum dominance was the only or even main reason for your victory - a great performance at the breakdown against an England side whose back row fell between the two schools of being lightweight but quick or very powerful was much more significant, along with England's lack of effective ball carriers).

If you do win and dominate the scrums, I want it to be obvious that it was fairly achieved, or at least as fairly as anything is in the front row   

Why ? Why do Wales have to be 'whiter than white' ?

If we do win, it will the be the 4th win in a row. England haven't managed a single try against Wales in 2 games, I don't understand why the Welsh squad have to prove themselves to some English fans, its bizarre

Why - because neutrals can see what is going on and many of us hate seeing scrums used to trick your way to penalties. I would much rather see a scrum fairly contested.

I'd be interested in the % of collapsed scrum when wales are playing compared to otehr teams.

Munkian

I'm not expecting whiter than white, and as I said, last year you were clearly the better side at the breakdown. The annoyance for England fans was Walsh's refereeing of the scrum, and that he seemed to be only refereeing one side - take that bizarre scrum where he was insisting Tom Youngs shuffled another 3" to the side before engaging. He obviously had a bee in his bonnet about something and was looking for something to penalise England for at that scrum.

Subsequently Adam Jones has admitted he was getting away with murder all game and was not being penalsied for binding on the arm, pulling down etc.

Yes, you play to what you can get away with (heck, McCaw is the absolute master of that, but there have been several props over the years who do quite well on that front as well), but I just want both sides to be able to get away with the same amount of rule bending...

Oh, and as an aside, the penalty England got against Ireland's scrum when Farrell's kick hit the post - no way was that an Eng penalty, we were getting mullered in that scrum as well and Ross was simply holding his own while Healy was shoving Wilson back half way to Richmond.

TJ wrote:Why - because neutrals can see what is going on and many of us hate seeing scrums used to trick your way to penalties.  I would much rather see a scrum fairly contested.

Yeah, 'neutrals'

So that implies that none of the refs, linesmen or the IRB are neutral as none of them have had a particular problem with our scrummaging.

I haven't seen a single Rugby article which implies the Welsh front row are overly cheating or a BBC pundit pre/mid or post game imply it either.

dummy_half wrote:Munkian

I'm not expecting whiter than white, and as I said, last year you were clearly the better side at the breakdown. The annoyance for England fans was Walsh's refereeing of the scrum, and that he seemed to be only refereeing one side - take that bizarre scrum where he was insisting Tom Youngs shuffled another 3" to  the side before engaging. He obviously had a bee in his bonnet about something and was looking for something to penalise England for at that scrum.

Subsequently Adam Jones has admitted he was getting away with murder all game and was not being penalsied for binding on the arm, pulling down etc.

Yes, you play to what you can get away with (heck, McCaw is the absolute master of that, but there have been several props over the years who do quite well on that front as well), but I just want both sides to be able to get away with the same amount of rule bending...

Oh, and as an aside, the penalty England got against Ireland's scrum when Farrell's kick hit the post - no way was that an Eng penalty, we were getting mullered in that scrum as well and Ross was simply holding his own while Healy was shoving Wilson back half way to Richmond.

SOME England fans, some. My (non biological) Dad is English and loves a dig, not a single complaint from him, not even one from Bryan Moore who always gets pre menstrual about scrums.

This whole issue that Wales only got the edge on France in the scrum because of cheating, for me is very wide of the mark, both side's were guilty of using the dark arts, what it looked like to me was a bunch of forwards who had just had the arris's kicked for the last week prior to the game and were going out to set a few records straight, and this was epitomised with Gethin Jenkins blood strew face in the stands when he was subbed for Paul James and announced his MOM award.

MUnkian - there is plenty if you want to see it - especially after the last seasons Scotland Wales game where it was obvious to all neutrals (with the benefit of replays /multiple angles) what was going on - Wales milked penalties by much trickery and were roundly criticised for it. Fortunatly its not as easy under the law changes - this is the reason Jones has been less effective as he cannot use his "cleverness" so much

Adam Jones was good on the hit, since that has gone he has become a bit of a passenger, if it wasn’t for his past reputation and the fact he seems a decent bloke he would have been dropped by now, hence why he hasn’t had much interest from French or English clubs seeing as his contract is nearly up at the Ospreys

TJ wrote:MUnkian - there is plenty if you want to see it - especially after the last seasons Scotland Wales game where it was obvious to all neutrals (with the benefit of replays /multiple angles) what was going on - Wales milked penalties by much trickery and were roundly criticised  for it.  Fortunatly its not as easy under the law changes - this is the reason Jones has been less effective as he cannot use his "cleverness" so much

Yeh, ok, we only beat Scotland because we were using trickery in the scrum, come on, please this needs to stop now, Scotland could have still been playing now and they would not have scored a try in that game, Hibbard scored the only try in that game and most of our penalties came from the breakdown if I remember correctly, this is starting to get annoying now, all sides are guilty of the dark arts so people need to stop using this as an excuse for their sides losing.

Or is it because the 'hit' has gone and he's had to change 10 years of scrummaging ?

Rugby is about using your brain as well as your body, the English front row were naive against us last year and didn't adapt to the ref. Whenever Sam was told anything he nodded and spoke to the team, Robshaw just looked astonished that England could have possibly done anything wrong.

Are you suggesting that the English pack never bored in or Hartley constantly popping up was all fair and square ?

How many penalties did England give away v Ireland ? It seemed an awful lot in a very small space of time as far as I remember, BURN THEM !   

munkian wrote:
Rugby is about using your brain as well as your body, the English front row were naive against us last year and didn't adapt to the ref. Whenever Sam was told anything he nodded and spoke to the team, Robshaw just looked astonished that England could have possibly done anything wrong. 

Are you suggesting that Steve Walsh    didn't like the look of Robshaw and that is why he didn't let us compete in the game?

Robshaw always looks like that, he can't help it!

Scrumpy wrote:

munkian wrote:
Rugby is about using your brain as well as your body, the English front row were naive against us last year and didn't adapt to the ref. Whenever Sam was told anything he nodded and spoke to the team, Robshaw just looked astonished that England could have possibly done anything wrong. 

Are you suggesting that Steve Walsh    didn't like the look of Robshaw and that is why he didn't let us compete in the game?

Robshaw always looks like that, he can't help it!

Pretty sure it was our backrow that didn't let you compete in the game. I spose Hibbard has lovelier hair than Marler though...

Well didn't Gatland already allude to the fact that refs like Warburton.

Poor Warbs, what an image to live down as a tough, belligerent International captain.

munkian wrote:

TJ wrote:Why - because neutrals can see what is going on and many of us hate seeing scrums used to trick your way to penalties.  I would much rather see a scrum fairly contested.

Yeah, 'neutrals'

So that implies that none of the refs, linesmen or the IRB are neutral as none of them have had a particular problem with our scrummaging.

I haven't seen a single Rugby article which implies the Welsh front row are overly cheating or a BBC pundit pre/mid or post game imply it either.

I thought Adam Jones had admitted that they were cheating and was amazed they got away with it.

Can be bad having a captain that refs get on with can it, eh NZ ?   

I suppose the all conquering England side of 2000-2003 won the world cup and all their grand slams by cheating in the scrum then, boo hoo, it's not fair, what goes around comes around.

dummy_half wrote:Munkian

I'm not expecting whiter than white, and as I said, last year you were clearly the better side at the breakdown. The annoyance for England fans was Walsh's refereeing of the scrum, and that he seemed to be only refereeing one side - take that bizarre scrum where he was insisting Tom Youngs shuffled another 3" to  the side before engaging. He obviously had a bee in his bonnet about something and was looking for something to penalise England for at that scrum.

Subsequently Adam Jones has admitted he was getting away with murder all game and was not being penalsied for binding on the arm, pulling down etc.

Yes, you play to what you can get away with (heck, McCaw is the absolute master of that, but there have been several props over the years who do quite well on that front as well), but I just want both sides to be able to get away with the same amount of rule bending...

Oh, and as an aside, the penalty England got against Ireland's scrum when Farrell's kick hit the post - no way was that an Eng penalty, we were getting mullered in that scrum as well and Ross was simply holding his own while Healy was shoving Wilson back half way to Richmond.

Ignoring any Welsh cheating or not in that match (someone posted a video of all the scrums and I did my best to analyse it a while ago), Walsh's refereeing, including the Youngs "incident" was abysmal. Man has too much of an ego to be given any power. At one point he sent Robshaw away and refused to talk to him, so the lack of communication with the referee went both ways. He is the only referee I'd be happy to never see referee any of my teams ever again

Exiledinborders wrote:

munkian wrote:

TJ wrote:Why - because neutrals can see what is going on and many of us hate seeing scrums used to trick your way to penalties.  I would much rather see a scrum fairly contested.

Yeah, 'neutrals'

So that implies that none of the refs, linesmen or the IRB are neutral as none of them have had a particular problem with our scrummaging.

I haven't seen a single Rugby article which implies the Welsh front row are overly cheating or a BBC pundit pre/mid or post game imply it either.

I thought Adam Jones had admitted that they were cheating and was amazed they got away with it.

He did but we can't refer to that!

Anyone up for providing a link to Adam Jones saying he cheated v England last year?

This term is fast becoming the new urban legend of the internet.

Wales have a strong scrum they have for a while as proved in the last two lions tours ,welsh players making their mark at scrum time.

Yes England are traditionally the strong scrumaging team but the English fans really must accept that they just are not at that level at this moment in time,

Then we look to foul play at scrum time ,look no further than sir Clive's England.

Lancaster doesn't want a strong scrum he wants a 15 man rugby league style team, hard runners a quick 9 and a kicking 10.

"Then we look to foul play at scrum time ,look no further than sir Clive's England."

How dare you call those legends cheats!
You're just jealous

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Anyone up for providing a link to Adam Jones saying he cheated v England last year?

This term is fast becoming the new urban legend of the internet.

Wales have a strong scrum they have for a while as proved in the last two lions tours ,welsh players making their mark at scrum time.

Yes England are traditionally the strong scrumaging team but the English fans really must accept that they just are not at that level at this moment in time,
Then we look to foul play at scrum time ,look no further than sir Clive's England.

Lancaster doesn't want a strong scrum he wants a 15 man rugby league style team, hard runners a quick 9 and a kicking 10.

The two bits in bold

I think most England fans know that our scrum is not a great strength at the moment, and even moreso in the absence of our two first choice props (Corbs and Cole). Even with them there, I would expect us to only be about equal with the other 6Ns teams bar perhaps Scotland (where scrummaging is a bit of a weakness). Better than the Aussies, about equal with the ABs and weaker than the Boks. I think it is more the supporters of the other sides who still think we are a powerful set piece side, while that hasn't been the case for 3 or 4 years.

Farrell as a kicking 10? Have a look at what he's actually done this 6Ns - passing far more, and even running the ball on occasion. The main criticism from last week was him taking the ball into contact himself, not him kicking too often. He has put in some good kicks to touch, in particular in the 2nd half against France, when territory was key, and against Scotland (when it was a good tactic as it was 50:50 whether we'd win the lineout), but most of the kicking from defensive positions has been from Care.

Not sure I'd quite say England are a RL style team, although we are certainly adopting a much more 15 man approach than over the last few years, with most players expected to contribute to the ball carrying in attack (only really Launchbury and Wilson don't get their hands on the ball in open play very often). Indeed, the linking between the forwards and backs has been one of the big improvements over the last few games.

Farrell has kicked more than any other 10 so far this six nations.

Scrumpy wrote:"Then we look to foul play at scrum time ,look no further than sir Clive's England."

How dare you call those legends cheats!
You're just jealous  

I doubt I will ever see a better pack of forwards again in my life time, they are up there with the Welsh forwards of the 70's perhaps higher.

LordDowlais wrote:I suppose the all conquering England side of 2000-2003 won the world cup and all their grand slams by cheating in the scrum then, boo hoo, it's not fair, what goes around comes around.

Good. On this basis we can look forward to AJ cheating himself to a RWC medal just like Jason Leonard did.