Wales scrum dominance?

by The Saint Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

One of the fundamentals during Wales' 27-6 win over France was the success of our scrum. After having come under much scrutiny and questions relating to fitness, Jenkins and Jones came out firing and sent the much vaunted French scrum into white flag mode. This was quite clear to anyone with any rugby nous, so I find it strange that some people can be so bitter over a little Welsh success. For instance, if we look at Figure 1, we can clearly see Wales getting a very strong foothold in the scrum, allowing Faletau a clean pick-up off the back and quick ball for our backs. The English said, "Jenkins collapsed it."

Figure 1
Wales scrum dominance? - Page 2 Scrum110

Wales scrum dominance? - Page 2 Scrum110

In this next image, one of The Saint's favourites, we clearly see Wales shoving the French scrum backwards and allowing Wales to win a scrum against the head. That's something you don't see very often. That was great play from Wales. The English said, "Jenkins was lying on his belly."

Figure 2
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum210.jpg

Figure's 3 and 4 show the same scrum dominance from different angles.

Figure 3
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum211.jpg

Figure 4
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum212.jpg

Wales in trouble near their own line. It's up to super scrum to ensure ball retention is smooth. They exceed Saint's expectations by once again, sending the French scrum into retreat. The English said. "Jones collapsed it."

Figure 5
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum310.jpg

The following was Saint's next favourite moment. Wales get themselves out of trouble with some outstanding defence, and further stamp their authority on the game by earning a penalty from a total annihilation of France's scrum with their back-up props. Looks like Plan B failed.

Figure 6
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum410.jpg

And the same again.

Figure 7
https://i.servimg.com/u/f55/18/49/71/76/scrum411.jpg

Well I have to admit, we must have been really lucky to get away with this 80 minutes of scrum collapsing. Now, speaking in real terms to the real rugby people, the England scrum got a good pasting from France, and now they're down to their reserve props. Therefore, The Saint can only see scrum time going one way and this is very unfortunate for England. Scrum time dominance will be just one vital factor in trying to get a win at Twickenham, but a very important one none-the-less.

by Jhamer25 Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:18 pm

Scrumpy wrote:
Jhamer25 wrote:Look at the end of the day no matter what nationality your are you can't purely says that Gethin and Adam have come so far in being such a dominant pairing at scrum time of the past 5 years because they are cheating.

Not at all both in their day were world class front row players.
But there were times last season and almost all of this season that they have begun to struggle. this could be for a number of reasons, age, new scrum laws etc etc hence why they are using all their experience of the dark arts these days, if the Ref knows what to look for or is pointed in the right direct (come on Bomber!) then they will start to get penalised, and rightly so.

No I completely agree with you (for once). I will be the first to say that Adam has struggles a bit this season, it's ber very clear and noted that the hit has taken away a bit of hos dominance but I was also sure that he will adapt to it. Even though he wasn't as dominant int he first two round he didn't take a backwards step.
Gethin has been in and out all season but I do think the new scrum laws suit him becuase he is more of a tactical scrummager than a dominant scrummager, he proved that vs Mas Friday.
I t just annoys me how some people can say Gethin collapsed all the scrums last Friday even though Mas was penalized twice for it and also was the one collapsed it leading up the the yellows cards (which is why a lot of people have disagreed with Gethin's yellow card). A lot of them don;t know what they are even talking about, give a reason or evidence as to how/why Gethin collapses 'all' the scrums (Not aimed at you scrumpy).

Well time will tell, but i for one know which scrum i'm backing and what scrum will be on top

by The Saint Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:22 pm

Would the baby stop complaining about my posts, they're aren't off topic. You just disagree with them because they're true.

Jhamer, there were a lot of question marks over Jones and his adaptation to the new laws. Looks as if that has been dispelled with the dominant performance over France. It's a shame a few posters seem to be blind...or just downright biased thumbsup

.

by **Biltong** Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:26 pm

Gentlemen (I use that in the broadest of terms) desist with the personal agendas, attack the post and not the poster.

by Scrumpy Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:14 pm

We'll said Mr Bil. thumbsup

by Cyril Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:19 pm

Biltong wrote:
Gentlemen (I use that in the broadest of terms) desist with the personal agendas, attack the post and not the poster.

Surely a good forum shouldn't be about 'attacking posts' anyway?

by slartibartfast Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:33 pm

It's Adam jones all round play that's struggled and not just scrummaging. He admits so himself before the six nations. He seems to lost a lot of weight recently.

Gethin Jenkins has been carrying injuries for years - it takes him a match or two to get fit. Out of the scrum he was fantastic on Friday hence the MOTM.

I suppose people have perceptions that he's a poor scrummager in the same way I see Hartley always stands up in the scrum or bod always plays the game his way to the detriment of the team and so on...

I think the OP a a good one as it presents facts.

by bedfordwelsh Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:14 pm

I have said for a while now that James should get the nod over Jenkins, thats not because I see Jenkins as a weak scrummmager but it was his all round game that got him ahead of others.

For various reason, injury and out of favour at Toulon his all round game suffered which for meant if thats the case then you might as well bring in a stronger scrummager.

by TJ Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:41 pm

munkian wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Why all this 'the English said' stuff?

Because this forum and other rugby sites is full of English posters claiming that the Welsh props have got where they are by collapsing scrums, binding on the arms - i,e cheating

Yup - which is correct. See Adam Jones agaisnt Scotland last year for an acknowledged example of this. Conned his oppo and the ref

by Scratch Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:45 pm

Jenkins will always get picked if fit, RWC 2011 is proof of that. Together with Sam and probably 1/2 he is one of Gatland's favorites.
Gethin has been miserable for Wales since 2005 and his impact v France was no less impressive than anything i have seen from him since his charge down v ire in 05 and his spectacular solo 99 metro effort at RWC

by Guest Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:32 pm

Cyril wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Gentlemen (I use that in the broadest of terms) desist with the personal agendas, attack the post and not the poster.
Surely a good forum shouldn't be about 'attacking posts' anyway?

I think he means discuss the points, arguing and discussing is fine but getting personal is not.

by bedfordwelsh Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:49 pm

TJ wrote:
munkian wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Why all this 'the English said' stuff?

Because this forum and other rugby sites is full of English posters claiming that the Welsh props have got where they are by collapsing scrums, binding on the arms - i,e cheating

Yup - which is correct. See Adam Jones agaisnt Scotland last year for an acknowledged example of this. Conned his oppo and the ref

Show me a prop that wouldn't get away with it if he could, if others can't that their own fault.

by The Saint Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:49 pm

TJ wrote:
munkian wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Why all this 'the English said' stuff?

Because this forum and other rugby sites is full of English posters claiming that the Welsh props have got where they are by collapsing scrums, binding on the arms - i,e cheating

Yup - which is correct. See Adam Jones agaisnt Scotland last year for an acknowledged example of this. Conned his oppo and the ref

I find that, oddly enough, most Scotland fans tend to blame the officials when they lose to Wales, and Wales only. At least that's the way it would seem because I don't usually follow a thread involving a Scotland game, except when their opponents are Wales. The ref blaming happens every year and the fact of the matter is that most of the time Scotland are beaten convincingly in the scrums and on the scoreboard.

by The Saint Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:01 pm

And while we're here, let's all remember the constant tackles Cuthbert was putting in on Picamoles. Took him out of the match and totally negated France's game plan. Ironic isn't it. As soon as you all latch onto a single Welsh mistake and go on about it for months, those players come back and prove you wrong.

Let's all take a moment to praise Alex Cuthbert thumbsup

.

by Guest Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:29 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:They do cheat. All props do. Are you trying to say they don't? They practice their 'innocent face' in front of the mirror as much as their scrummaging! I'd be very surprised if it was only the English who knew the ins and outs of scrummaging and the dark arts.

I agree about the cheating. In fact Graham Price, a great former tight-head, said as much last year. He pointed out that the props, especially the tight-head, are up against the laws of the game and the laws of physics. As the laws of physics can't be broken, it's the laws of rugby which are!

by Guest Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:33 pm

And Richie McCaw won the IRB player of the year 3 times because of his cheating shenanigans and conning the referee

by Comfort Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:51 pm

All props cheat, and the hookers too.

All sides take it down at times.

Its this simple for me, when the welsh and french scrums stayed up, the welsh marched them backwards, thats the sign of whos in control....

by No 7&1/2 Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:59 pm

Comfort wrote:All props cheat, and the hookers too.

All sides take it down at times.

Its this simple for me, when the welsh and french scrums stayed up, the welsh marched them backwards, thats the sign of whos in control....

And when the French may have got control the scrums went down?

by LordDowlais Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:01 pm

Comfort wrote:All props cheat, and the hookers too.

All sides take it down at times.

Its this simple for me, when the welsh and french scrums stayed up, the welsh marched them backwards, thats the sign of whos in control....

+1

It was glaringly obvious which scrum was "on top" on Friday night, when the scrum was completed there was only one side who were going forwards all game, for me it is obvious which side is conning the ref and it is not the side that were knowingly on top.

by SecretFly Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Comfort wrote:All props cheat, and the hookers too.

All sides take it down at times.

Its this simple for me, when the welsh and french scrums stayed up, the welsh marched them backwards, thats the sign of whos in control....

And when the French may have got control the scrums went down?

I love logic.

by LordDowlais Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Comfort wrote:All props cheat, and the hookers too.

All sides take it down at times.

Its this simple for me, when the welsh and french scrums stayed up, the welsh marched them backwards, thats the sign of whos in control....

And when the French may have got control the scrums went down?

Not once did the French have control of the scrums.

by The Saint Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:06 pm

Well this article has certainly brought out some English bitterness Laugh

. England get bested by the France scrum and eventually lose the game. Wales, well on top of the France scrum end up smashing them 27-6. Of course, it must have been the ref! It was really nice of the ref's to be our last tackler in the past 4 games and stop France from putting a try past us!

by The Saint Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:09 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Comfort wrote:All props cheat, and the hookers too.

All sides take it down at times.

Its this simple for me, when the welsh and french scrums stayed up, the welsh marched them backwards, thats the sign of whos in control....

And when the French may have got control the scrums went down?

Not once did the French have control of the scrums.

Tell a lie LD. I believe Rhodri Jones was involved in two scrums, which France seemed to have the upper hand in. Only one of these went down (but went down on Paul James' side) and they got the penalty. The next one was held and we managed to move the ball away. But if you're an English online pundit then all of that was Wales standing up in the scrum.

by ChequeredJersey Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:43 pm

Maybe Wales will dominate England's scrum. Maybe not. We'll find out soon

by The Saint Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:49 pm

The ref will be blamed though, like he was after the France game and England weren't even playing! Just imagine what it will be like after this upcoming game...

by BlueNote Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:50 pm

Last year Adam Jones was way too strong for Marler, and it was embarrassing when Vunipola came on, but this year Marler looks a bit better and AJ is not looking so good (new rules etc), so that particular contest will be interesting.

The hookers is an interesting battle too.

by ChequeredJersey Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:55 pm

Yes, Saint, I do expect Wales will be blaming the referee, but what can you do, eh?

by **Biltong** Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:01 pm

The Saint wrote:Well this article has certainly brought out some English bitterness . England get bested by the France scrum and eventually lose the game. Wales, well on top of the France scrum end up smashing them 27-6. Of course, it must have been the ref! It was really nice of the ref's to be our last tackler in the past 4 games and stop France from putting a try past us!

Saint, this is your final warning for gunning for the English, be it their team or supporters.

by maestegmafia Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:10 pm

BlueNote wrote:Last year Adam Jones was way too strong for Marler, and it was embarrassing when Vunipola came on, but this year Marler looks a bit better and AJ is not looking so good (new rules etc), so that particular contest will be interesting.

The hookers is an interesting battle too.

Adam jones and Gethin looked very good last week against a very useful French scrum. I would not say that Adam has taken a step backwards..

by munkian Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:10 pm

Just to fuel the fire, I'm pretty sure Eng and Wales are neck and neck on wins/losses/draws against each other now with Wales beating England the last 3 tests on the bounce Shocked

by The Saint Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:10 pm

Fair enough Biltong, but can I just ask why neither of the mod team did this when the WRU were being referred to as retards, and Mike Phillips was being gunned for?
I can't see much wrong with my post... It's a post based on the responses on this thread, can't you see posters showing bitter resentment and accusing Wales of cheating? Comes across as double standards.

by Comfort Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:12 pm

I'm not suggesting Wales will get scrum dominance against England (although the relative strengths of the 4 opposing props alone point to Wales having the edge) but I do find it encouraging that theres all this talk about the welsh props 'cheating' their way to dominance.

You know our scrum's doing its job Wink

by munkian Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:17 pm

Its not just here to be honest. There are comments everywhere that our front row 'cheats' to win.

Ask any person who's played in the tight 5 if they've ever 'cheated' and see if they keep a straight face...

by Scrumpy Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:18 pm

The Saint wrote:Fair enough Biltong, but can I just ask why neither of the mod team did this when the WRU were being referred to as retards, and Mike Phillips was being gunned for?
I can't see much wrong with my post... It's a post based on the responses on this thread, can't you see posters showing bitter resentment and accusing Wales of cheating? Comes across as double standards.

Mate if someone was referring to the WRU as retards then you should have reported them or ignored them,.
As for Mike Phillips to be fair some of the strongest comments I saw was coming from Welsh posters, he was entitled to some criticism imo.

by Comfort Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:19 pm

the WRU are retards

by The Saint Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:21 pm

I did report it. Nothing was done. Nothing ever gets done if it's against Wales. I know Mike gets some flak from all, but there was a group of posters constantly posting derogative comments about him around the time he got sacked by Bayonne. Nothing got done about that either, which leads us to believe that some get special treatment (none of them Welsh posters of course!).

by The Saint Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:22 pm

munkian wrote:Its not just here to be honest. There are comments everywhere that our front row 'cheats' to win.

Ask any person who's played in the tight 5 if they've ever 'cheated' and see if they keep a straight face...

I know. It's just bitterness. So it's okay to call Wales cheats, but not okay to point out somebody or a group of people are seemingly acting bitter because Wales earned a good win? It's strange isn't it.

by ChequeredJersey Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:24 pm

Just take it as a compliment that we are already nervous and getting some excuses in early

by ChequeredJersey Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:25 pm

As for Phillips, please, call him back up by all means

by gregortree Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:28 pm

'Infamy ! Infamy !' as they used to cry in those Golden Oldie Carry on Films.
Whales are now a protected species, so we can no longer pick on them.

by The Saint Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:31 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:As for Phillips, please, call him back up by all means

He's still in the squad, but I guess Webb will start. Gareth Davies (Scarlets) should be there in place of Phillips. Also, Rhodri Williams was probably more deserving of a start than Webb, but Webb played exceptionally well versus France (he probably practiced dark arts in the build up to the game) so deserves his place.

by Scrumpy Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:33 pm

munkian wrote:Its not just here to be honest. There are comments everywhere that our front row 'cheats' to win.

Ask any person who's played in the tight 5 if they've ever 'cheated' and see if they keep a straight face...

It's only cheating if you get caught, but lets be honest they are two fine props using all their experience to gain an advantage, but imo they are both struggling with the new scrum laws and if the Ref was to be pointed to their use of the dark arts (come on Bomber point it out to Roman pre-game) then they will start to concede penalties. Yahoo

by gregortree Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:42 pm

Didn't the Lancaster practice lines of attack on Welsh dams ?
Bomber has their measure now and will pass this on to Monsieur Poite..
And also, fortunately, Walsh is not playing.

by munkian Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:46 pm

The Saint wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:As for Phillips, please, call him back up by all means

He's still in the squad, but I guess Webb will start. Gareth Davies (Scarlets) should be there in place of Phillips. Also, Rhodri Williams was probably more deserving of a start than Webb, but Webb played exceptionally well versus France (he probably practiced dark arts in the build up to the game) so deserves his place.

I think you find if anyone 'deserves' to replace Phlillips its Rees - inform Welsh 9 all season and behind an awful pack

by gregortree Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:53 pm

The Saint,
look... on the craziest chance that England might just win this one, will you come back on here after with a plan B commentary ? Or just vanish from your thread ?

by Geordie Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:58 pm

The English scrum is not it's usual smashing best....but it's not weak!!

There's a nice little incentive for Marler, Hartley and Wilson...

by The Saint Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:58 pm

munkian wrote:
The Saint wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:As for Phillips, please, call him back up by all means

He's still in the squad, but I guess Webb will start. Gareth Davies (Scarlets) should be there in place of Phillips. Also, Rhodri Williams was probably more deserving of a start than Webb, but Webb played exceptionally well versus France (he probably practiced dark arts in the build up to the game) so deserves his place.

I think you find if anyone 'deserves' to replace Phlillips its Rees - inform Welsh 9 all season and behind an awful pack

Yeah I actually forgot about Rees. My point is that Gats likes contrasting styles between his 9's. Rees, Williams and Webb are all similar. The most similar player to Phillips is Davies. I honestly believe MP has been past it for a little while, at international level at least.

by LordDowlais Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:58 pm

The game in itself is too close to call, but to say that the Welsh front row only get dominance from cheating is a little wide of the mark.

by Geordie Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:00 pm

The Saint wrote:Madge there are no anti-English threads. I suggest you stop spouting rubbish and actually watch a game of rugby for a change.

Rubbish I agree with Maj...every post is a dig at the English

by The Saint Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:00 pm

gregortree wrote:The Saint,
look... on the craziest chance that England might just win this one, will you come back on here after with a plan B commentary ? Or just vanish from your thread ?

Why would you come out with this comment? It wouldn't cause me hardship at all to congratulate England, my second favourite team, on winning the game and they have a good chance of winning for a change. Have you misunderstood the OP and/or any related post?

by nobbled Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:04 pm

LordDowlais wrote:The game in itself is too close to call, but to say that the Welsh front row only get dominance from cheating is a little wide of the mark.

Agreed. They have the skill and experience.

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