Ulster 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

Any reason why he didnt make an appearance for the Ravens?

VDM must have been colleagues with Glasgow's own wrecking ball Josh Strauss.
Strauss captained the Lions to their Currie Cup win in 2011. There must have been at least 2 years overlap when they both played together.

Anyone on that Tweety thing, why not ask Strauss what he thinks of VDM:
@JoshStrauss1

Golden, I just don't think we will ever replace Mullers leadership. I think we hit the jackpot there.

Well even if Muller was still around I'd think that was an area Ulster would need to strengthen. As has been said many times before on this board once 2/3 of your top players are missing the performance drops massively (in the league anyway).

With Muller gone it becomes even more important.  Maybe someone else will step up though.

VDM is potentially a step up in terms of playing ability (I'm talking about Johann of this season where his body has struggled at times) but the leadership loss is massive.

I checked earlier and there is a thread on Planetrugby about him. Seems like he is a lineout specialist but maybe doesn't have the ball carrying ability necessary for a regular springbok. I think it's a solid enough signing and between him, Tuohy and Henderson we have three good options. We need the youngsters to start coming through now though like Donnan and O'Connor.

At this point I would rather see Robbie Diack named in the row over big Lewis Stevenson

The FRU were touting this one over a week ago, perhaps this adds credibility to their Stuart Hogg claims?

Every man and his dog knew about this one dodger. The mystery was why it took so long to announce. That's why I think people got a bit antsy as to whether it was happening.

Am I blind or has there still been no official UR release on it

Golden wrote:Well even if Muller was still around I'd think that was an area Ulster would need to strengthen. As has been said many times before on this board once 2/3 of your top players are missing the performance drops massively (in the league anyway).

With Muller gone it becomes even more important.  Maybe someone else will step up though.

Thats it. Our homegrown players haven't been willing to step up and take responsibility as leaders. We need the experienced guys we have to step up to the plate. It can't all be down to Rory Best and Chris Henry.

Standulstermen wrote:Every man and his dog knew about this one dodger. The mystery was why it took so long to announce. That's why I think people got a bit antsy as to whether it was happening.

I see - I thought there was still some ambiguity as to whether it was Franco or Flip van der Merew we were signing, I probably would have been happier with the latter if I'm honest. But I think at Ulster we are a team that has gotten the very best out of every signing since Humphreys has been in control of that department. I honestly can't think of a bad signing we've made since Humphreys has taken that mantle. Where as before we made signings that didn't work out like Horua, Emerick and Schifcofkse. Every signing Humphreys has made has been at least credible, so I'm confident Franco is going to become another Ulsterman through and through.

Were a couple of those signings not on humphs watch? We have re-signed NOC, McKinney and McIlwaine which haven't worked out but I don't particularly blame humph there. We are trying to bring young Ulster players back. What I do like is that he is identifying whether they will cut it or not pretty quickly and looking for alternatives.

Flip is the bok player everyone knows but there are some reports suggesting we are getting a good deal in terms of the VDMs.

Only signings that haven't really worked have been the ones we have to make to just make up the numbers with cheap Irish qualified journeymen like McComish or bringing back O'Connor and McKinney.

As has been pointed out this has more to do with our alarming lack of depth as a byproduct of the Academy not doing its job, and also we argue over us not being able to retain some of the good but not amazing players it has produced.

What I'm hearing about Van Der Merwe is that he is a lineout specialist, but his lack of carrying power has held him back from playing for the Boks more than just once.

This is absolutely perfect for us. He will be partnered by either Tuohy or Henderson. We have a couple of really good ball-carrying locks already. It's the lineout organisation we're losing with Muller going.

Emerick was on Humphs watch but Horua and Schifcokse weren't

McAllister off to Auriallac (sp?) for 2 years

As I mentioned earlier I predict Henry captain Diack Vice

The backrower and hooker will be cover players, nothing more and will have to be IQ

I would be happy enough if the captaincy panned out that way. I don't see any other candidates but Rory really.

If we could unearth a guy like Heenan that Connacht got that would be excellent. I would gladly take Willie Faloon back although I don't blame Humph for letting him go when he did

Guys, I see that Sean Dougall is starting a HC semi final at openside for Munster. Given that after Henry (with Doyle leaving) we have nothing at openside, might it be an idea to get this guy back.

Easier said than done, I imagine.

I'd say you are right there Notch but he would be a great signing if they could get him as we have practically nothing at 7 after Henry

How about bringing back Ali Birch? He sounds to be having a strong season in the championship.. scored his 7th try of the season last weekend and was unlucky to have an 8th disallowed

It could be an option especially if Doyle leaves and he is having a great season in the Championship to be fair but so did others who then came home. Although from a sheer numbers point of view they may need him.

ReadBetweenthePosts wrote:How about bringing back Ali Birch? He sounds to be having a strong season in the championship.. scored his 7th try of the season last weekend and was unlucky to have an 8th disallowed

Ali Birch was actually a decent player, and very poorly managed. I know that might cause a stir on here from a few people but I'm just stating the facts.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ReadBetweenthePosts wrote:How about bringing back Ali Birch? He sounds to be having a strong season in the championship.. scored his 7th try of the season last weekend and was unlucky to have an 8th disallowed

Ali Birch was actually a decent player, and very poorly managed.  I know that might cause a stir on here from a few people but I'm just stating the facts.

Same story with Willie Faloon. When you add Sean Dougall that's three opensides we've produced playing elsewhere next season and we're desperately scrambling around for a seven.

We write off players far, far too soon in Ulster. Sooner than we can afford to write them off. If they aren't immediately brilliant they are dismissed out of hand. Maybe our coaches feel it's their job to get players who are already tailor made for professional rugby and it's not their responsibility to actually bring guys on. In reality, we need coaches to develop players because when you have these restrictions on the number of NIQ players we really have no other choice but to work with what we've got. It's a good thing to trim the fat and set standards, but we're down to the bare bones now. We are short of cover in key positions in the pack and in positions where we have produced homegrown players as well.

I think Dougall and Faloon are better than Birch, but all three were forced out after being deemed not good enough and now we're the ones crying over the spilt milk because we only have one openside signed up for next season, and that open side has just played the last five test matches so we really need someone else signed up as a matter of serious urgency. And they have to be Irish, and they have to be good.

It's a sad situation. There seems to be a real divide between the top 15-25 players in the squad and the rest. We can't be running a two tier squad.

Well Faloon or Birch are the 2 opensides most likely to come back from those candidates we definately need one of them if it was me I'd probably go for Birch.

Given that both of them were treated pretty shabbily I wouldn't be so sure they wouldn't just tell Ulster to Foxtrot Oscar. I probably would if I was in their boots.

I know you guys have had trouble in the past of attracting Irish lads from down south but Dom Ryan could really do with a move IMO. Given a bit more game time he'd have a lot to offer (again IMO).

I think the IRFU needs to make going North more attractive. I dont know how they would do this though.

Whoever is open side understudy to Chris Henry will be getting loads of game time next year. Schmidt is a big fan of Henry and we'll be without him for long stretches.

Humph needs to pull a rabbit out of the hat. Or else we'll be seeing someone like Diack/Wilson at open side a lot...

That's true Notch although I do know Ali and knowing his personality it was one of his proudest things ever to represent Ulster and I think he would very much like the chance to come back although I stress I haven't talked to him about it or anything just from what I know of his personality.

May not be a popular opinion but i saw nothing from Ali Birch that suggests he is good enough to be our backup openside. I wouldnt have him much (if at all) ahead of magic Mike.

Faloon is a different story although he did have a poor season before he went he showed (and has showed at Connacht) that he is a very useful openside. that said im sure geoff hinted at the time there were budget issues the season he left, and i think they expected Birch to do his job but do it cheaper.

The fact he has been in Connacht a while and gets regular gametime there will stand against it. I cant comment on Dougall tbh as i dont know how and when he slipped through the net.

I genuinely can't remember Birch having a bad game for Ulster, and I remember him standing out in a fair few games that he actually got game time for. He was a very handy player and would have improved with time I believe. He rarely got a chance and never let himself down the times that he did.

Cant agree Rory. I thought he was quite poor. Not sure how he is going in the Championship since

When Faloon was having his wobble year Birch looked very sharp and promising but didn't quite live up to expectation when Faloon left... that said though we can't go dropping players as soon as they have a shakey season, imagine what we would have missed if we let Diack go after his wobble season

ReadBetweenthePosts wrote:imagine what we would have missed if we let Diack go after his wobble season

Precisely...

I would agree with Rory although one game that seemed to turn peoples opinions was when we had diack who at the time didn't have the physicality and Joyce alongside him and they were totally overpowed by a big back row.
Stand is has been really excellent in the Championship candidate and probably the winner of player of the year for Rotherham who are 4th in the league.

The openside will be from the SH with an Irish granny (or grandad)

Birch isn't considered anywhere near good enough - I agree
Dougal got badly injured and chose Munster over us

The only one we let go was Faloon and his departure, like Diack playing poorly, was down to their mis management by the coach at the time - McLoughlin

They are 2 examples of reasons why McLoughlin had to go.
If Muller had not been in the dressing room I doubt it would had stayed together.
McLoughlin couldn't handle seasoned players very well

Thats good Neil. In terms of Faloon going I am nearly certain (im not sure if it was on the old 606) that Geoff said Ulster thought Birch could be his equal but obviously wouldnt command as much. In hindsight it wasnt a great move i agree. I always liked Faloon.

Bottom line is that we have to trust Humph to get the right player in. He hasnt really let us down yet.

My memory of Faloon was that he was modtly very good but he seemed to have a period almost every game where he seemed to lose concentration and mess up.

Am I mis-remembering?

I was sorry to see him go though.

Faloon came on the scene and was said to have been on the small side. In his first season he hit like a truck. In his last season he was noticeably poorer in this regard but his link play was always very good and his pace was an asset.

I vaguely remember geoff making a point about McLaughlin and Faloon because at the time i couldnt believe it as the rumours were Mclaughlin rated Faloon from his Ballynahinch stint and brought him through.

back then we had faloon and Pollock coming through   

List of homegrown Ulster opensides of recent times?

McMillan, Pollock, Dougall, Faloon, Birch, Henry. Two retirements, three moved away and now we're scraping around the SH for someone with an Irish granny. Man, this is ridiculous.

No disagreements here Notch
I guess we just have to trust Humph to get us the right people in the summer

It's one thing starring in teams with less stellar players around, but totally another to do it with Test class players all vying for the limelight.
Birch may shine in the championship, and Faloon for Connacht, but that's relative to those around them - remember even Mike McComish and Niall O'Connor looked good at Connacht. (McIlwaine and McKinney were getting pretty good reviews from the Championship too.)

The simple truth is that none of them are good enough. Would Birch or Faloon be in contention for a Test place - not from what I've seen.

I like the look of Sean Dougall but not everyone from the Academy gets retained. Dominic Gallagher showed great promise but has disappeared off the radar, Sean O'Connell has also moved across the water - every province has had players who have left and by the law of averages some will improve. Ulster have generally given players enough chances to decide whether the player's aspirations fall within the same ball park as their potential ability.

Ulster cannot afford to keep players indefinitely hoping someday they will come good.

We cannot afford to get rid of more players than we have coming in every single season either. Eventually it means we'll just have a squad with no depth at all.

Standulstermen wrote:Thats good Neil. In terms of Faloon going I am nearly certain (im not sure if it was on the old 606) that Geoff said Ulster thought Birch could be his equal but obviously wouldnt command as much. In hindsight it wasnt a great move i agree. I always liked Faloon.

Bottom line is that we have to trust Humph to get the right player in. He hasnt really let us down yet.

Stand thats correct McLoughlin decided Birch was going to be as good as Faloon so let Faloon go.
Didn't turn out that way

Notch wrote:We cannot afford to get rid of more players than we have coming in every single season either. Eventually it means we'll just have a squad with no depth at all.

Don't worry, Notch.

Head office wouldn't allow one of its outlets to run dry of stocks.  

Notch wrote:List of homegrown Ulster opensides of recent times?

McMillan, Pollock, Dougall, Faloon, Birch, Henry. Two retirements, three moved away and now we're scraping around the SH for someone with an Irish granny. Man, this is ridiculous.

Lets break this down to explain

McMillan - retired through injury
Pollock - retired through injury
Dougall - stop playing for a while whilst a youngster through injury, went to Rotherham, Munster made him a better offer than us he went to Munster. Why did we not make a better offer? McLoughlin rated Birch.
Faloon - McLoughlin let go because he though Birch was better
Birch - not good enough
Henry - our main man

So what does this all amount to:
Bad luck regarding injuries and awful judgement by McLoughlin re Faloon, Dougall and Birch.
It is not reflective of a wider issue it comes down to 2 specific points

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Notch wrote:We cannot afford to get rid of more players than we have coming in every single season either. Eventually it means we'll just have a squad with no depth at all.

Don't worry, Notch.

Head office wouldn't allow one of its outlets to run dry of stocks.  

If only that was actually true!  

Geoff, Humphreys was Director of Rugby for that period. It's not 100% down to McLaughlin, because ultimately Humph is the guy in charge of recruitment and player contracts. I'm sure he works with the coaches and takes their advice on board but it's ultimately down to him. The two injuries are unlucky but there's been a series of feck ups with our opensides during his tenure. It's very convenient that the blame all lies on the departed coach and not the Director of Rugby who is still in his job. He's had a policy of having a small squad necessitated by the budget for a few big stars, but for us to make the next step to actually winning something we need more depth and there is just too many players who have been allowed to leave- it's a policy which is coming back and biting us on the arse and not just at openside. Even if it is the coaches who have screwed up, the coaches have been his picks. It's his job to ensure continuity between coaching regimes.

I think Humph has done a great job and deserves credit for an enormous number of things, but he has to hold his hand up here. Give him credit for the things he has deserves credit for and criticism for the things he deserves criticism for. We backed a horse in Ali Birch, then a year later we axed him. He was either good enough to be backed ahead of the other opensides or he wasn't. Change of coach doesn't change that, but once you've backed a player to be the long-term understudy to Henry you can't just get rid of him the next year.

I'm not saying suddenly nobody at Ulster knows what they're doing. But when we need an open side and there are two homegrown ones playing at a high level, even you have to admit Ulster screwed up. It's not like when Faloon left all the posters where united in thinking we don't need him. It was a move that got a massive amount of criticism at the time.

You can say McLaughlin rated x and McLaughlin didn't rate y- McLaughlin wasn't in charge of contracts. Thats the bottom line.

Geoff - that sums it up nicely.

It's worth noting that David Pollock was rated ahead of Chris Henry and had a great future - losing that level of homegrown talent isn't easy to replace.

I've got no problem with trimming the fat and getting rid of players who aren't good enough. But there are so many ex-Ulster players we've allowed to leave that I think we could really, really use right now.

Notch McLoughlin pushed for Birch ahead of Faloon.
Humphreys backed him and then realized he got in wrong.
One of many reasons McLoughlin lost the job - his woeful mishandling of Diack was another.

Humpreys is in charge of recruitment but he listens to his coaches - Williams is here because of Anscombe for example

It's very convenient that the blame all lies on the departed coach and not the Director of Rugby who is still in his job

It may be convenient but in this instance it happens to be true- the reason neither Dougall or Faloon are at Ulster rugby is down to McLoughlan deciding he did not want them in favour of a player who was not up to the job.

The Great Aukster wrote:Geoff - that sums it up nicely.

It's worth noting that David Pollock was rated ahead of Chris Henry and had a great future - losing that level of homegrown talent isn't easy to replace.

David Pollock would have been Irelands 7 now if he remained fit and Chris Henry probably would have been a steady, but unspectacular 6/8 for Ulster only.

Notch wrote:I've got no problem with trimming the fat and getting rid of players who aren't good enough. But there are so many ex-Ulster players we've allowed to leave that I think we could really, really use right now.

But talking in the abstract is no good and gets us nowhere - you have to look at the individual circumstances and decide where we went wrong.
That is how you learn and improve.

In the case of open side our coach at the time backed the wrong horse simple as that.
In the case of Whitten we were incredibly unlucky - Paddy Wallace injury and Nevin Spence's death - no one could be expected to have forseen that.

It also goes back to what I said earlier unlike Leinster and Munster our AIB teams do not provide an adequate quality of rugby for those on the fringes.
This means they do not progress, maintain standards and/or maintain interest and as a result leave.
We can improve our involvement/selection of fringe players but until there is a improvement in the rugby provided below the 1st XV things will not markedly improve.

1 of the top 14 AIB sides is a Provincial disgrace.

The only player I think we could use now is Faloon.

Im not concerned about Whitten or Seymour despite the latter coming good for Glasgow. Sometimes its about the environment and things have gone well for Tommy at Glasgow but he is still nowhere near the calibre of Trimble, Bowe or Gilroy at their best though while Scholes has bags of potential.

Would he have evolved in the same way being behind those three guys last year at Ulster? Absolutely not. He has had a better season than Gilroy but Gilroy had a much better one last year and the year previous.

Similarly with Whitten. A really good, honest pro but Marshall, Olding, Cave and now Payne with McCloskey emerging is grand to my mind. Of course Nevin is a loss also.

All this would be moot if Doyle wasn't leaving. We would have a significant backrow of Diack, Ferris, Wilson, Williams, Henry and Doyle before dipping into Joyce, Dow, McComish, Taggart etc.

Glasgow get their BP win against their neighbours tonight.

Table is very interesting now:

Team/Played/Won/Drawn/Lost/For/Against/Bonus Pts/Points

1 Leinster 20 15 1 4 517 319 12 74
2 Glasgow 20 16 0 4 392 293 5 69
3 Munster 20 15 0 5 466 308 8 68
4 Ulster 20 14 0 6 431 280 9 65
5 Ospreys 20 12 1 7 499 338 10 60