Ulster 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

Any reason why he didnt make an appearance for the Ravens?

Glasgow will finish at least 2nd. The only interesting bit will be Ulsters last two games. I just want the season over. It can get ****** for all I care








..... With the caveat that I will change my mind if we win the next 3? Games   

Ah, we'll finish 4th most likely. That might be better in that our hardest game will be in the semi and not the final. If we beat Leinster away then we'll legitimately have no fear in the Final. If we don't, well, thats it anyway.

But we have to be targeting 2 wins in the last 2, I expect us to get 1 and a losing BP.

If we lose at Ravenhill to Leinster in Mullers last home game when we can not afford anything less than a win I will genuinely believe there is something rotten in the state of Denmark... winning that is the absolute bare minimum at this point.

I don't think anything is rotten at all. I just think we have been decimated in the last few weeks. We say players are coming back but what preparation can they have had? It will be a turnaround of epic proportions to win that game IMO.

We gave our all and some against Saracens and physically and mental I think we are shattered.
If something was rotten we would not have been able to put in such a performance.
It was, arguably, the most heroic team performance of the year ..anywhere
Muller would not allow something to be rotten and he has the personality to ensure that on its own.

There is nothing rotten in Ulster

The reality is after years of under achieving we sorted ourselves out off the field and went for broke to win something.
For 3/4 years we gave it a real go but have, just, come up short - 2 losing finals, 4 years knock out stages of HC.

However we have big issues to address as this attempt was based, in part, on top quality imports and back up players with grannies.
That is not sustainable in the long run.
We will not have the same power in the pack next year as this, we still be a decent team but I cannot see us challenging for the European competition.

We need to address the cronic problem of, threes aside, very few players coming through our academy.
That reworking has started but needs to start producing results starting next year.
We have a new ground which is starting to increase revenue.

We have an issue that Hinch aside our AIB teams are crap.

I have heard the word consolidation mentioned - sounds an accurate statement to me.
Next year is about building he foundation of future sustainable success.
Some of the right moves to ensure that have already been made



Lower your sights lads

Paddy McAllister has a return clause in his Auriallac contract

geoff998rugby wrote:Paddy McAllister has a return clause in his Auriallac  contract

Well that is good news at least. But we're still going for broke to win something this season. Thats what the game about Leinster is about. The Saracens game was gutting but it wasn't the be all and end all because we're still very much in with a shot at making the playoffs and I can't believe that the senior players and coaches are going to just make up the numbers, home or away. This is where the team either reacts or rolls over, and if we roll over I think it'll be a long time before we win anything because that shows a lack of mental strength and our main leader is leaving. There's just no time for the players to lick their wounds after the Saracens game. It's quite simply a luxury they don't have and can't have. The Old Ulster would do that, would fall apart after one setback and the season would slide into mediocrity. I thought that team was gone. I thought we buried it forever when we made a habit of going and winning big games.

I've never judged Ulster by trophies, I've only ever judged them by their own potential. When they were 9th of 10 teams I wanted them to push on and secure 7th/8th and so on. And if this team doesn't win a trophy together then it's a story of wasted potential. This year has been what we've been building towards all the while in earnest- we all know the only reason it's not us in the semi-finals this weekend is a refereeing decision but there is till everything to play for in the Pro12 and if we don't deliver a big performance and a convincing win now, then when? Leinster is a bigger game on the context of our season than the Saracens match was, definitely. With all the players leaving and the stakes being so high if we don't deliver a BIG performance now- we never will. This game will show what the team is really made of. It will show who has the right stuff, and who doesn't and whether the standards being set are high enough.

We have built the squad to be getting a home semi-final but there have been a good few performances that have cost us because we have went out and badly under-performed in the league. There wasn't much going for broke in the Cardiff game when we were mauled back 40 metres for instance. More like just expecting things to happen for us instead of making them happen. If we had turned up for that we'd still be in the running for a home semi-final. We still have a shot at a trophy and I still think the minimum target for this year is winning the Pro12 just as it was at the start of the season. Thats what it always has been about this year. Taking the next step and winning a trophy; the Saracens game doesn't change that.

Basically if we can't get motivated to go the extra mile and deliver a massive performance against Leinster next weekend- I think that shows we haven't built the mental side of our game up to the standards it needs to be at. Motivation should be absolutely no problem.

We ill be motivated and some don't worry about that

but the reality is we will be going into the game with props who are not 100% whoever they are and without a outstanding
2 and a world class 9 - that is a big big ask

The Saracens game took a lot of most players I honestly think some have yet to recover - that has nothing to do with a shortage of desire though

I believe if we can make it to the playoffs we can still be a force in this competition. It's not over yet!

Sensible words Geoff. The team have been consolidating by building depth and gradually becoming more consistent, but for real long term stability they have to do it with more homegrown players. Shane Logan has stated his goal is to have two teams of Ireland Test players, and to do that he has identified that there needs to be something like 42,000 schoolboys playing rugby. He is passionate about instilling the benefits of sport into the NI youth psyche - hence the big investment in the Nevin Spence Centre.

Ulster have a pyramid of strategies to get more players playing the game, identify those with potential, ensure they are being developed and keeping the very best. It is a long term project but is moving in the right direction.

There are some more short term actions that would improve the player pool. Munster have maintained a monopoly of the club game because they have been concentrating their academy resources in the top teams. This has started to happen a bit in Ulster but needs more focus. The big difference between the other provinces and Ulster is they retain far more schoolboy players in the club game once they've left school.

It is high time the Schools Cup allowed club teams entry.

I don't know if that would help Aukster but I think we have to do something to change the system which has Schools Cup as the goal for our young rugby players.

The vast majority of our coaches see what happens on the 17th March 20.. as the pinacle rugby acheivement and they train their player that way. No long term planning or view at all.

This means that so many of our youngsters are either put off the game in school because they are not big enough to make the "A" team or because they did make the "A" team and were driven so hard that they don't continue to play once they leave.

We need school coaches to start to buy into the idea that they are part of deveoping player for Ulster and Ireland not just so their own school can lift the Schools Cup.

Talking of why players leave McAllister is a great example.

He has to leave because playing AIB for one of our teams does not provide him with the standard of rugby he requires to get back up to speed.

Mrs P - The School's Cup is becoming more of a numbers game each year, as power/size increasingly becomes more important than guile/skill. The schools with big numbers are the only ones with a chance of winning it. That in turn encourages some parents to send their children to these rugby schools, so widening the gap even further.

The idea of getting club teams involved would allow a number of smaller schools to pool numbers under the banner of their local club. This might also suit schools that don't offer rugby as a sport through tradition or lack of facilities. The coaching resource could also be shared thus improving it's quality. Longer term more players would get an early association with a club and therefore would be far more likely to stay with them after the school days are over.

My personal opinion is that the Schools cup should be scrapped.

Will not happen I know, but I think its the way to move rugby forward.

If we look at football or Gaelic games these are focused on the Club, rather than School meaning that they are open to a wider pool of potential players. Schoolboys should play for their School but it shouldn't be deemed too important just like other School sports, they are there for an eduction after all its at the club they should receive the best rugby coaching.

Most sports underage are focused on the club and not Schools, Rugby is the only one I think that does. If under age players concentrated on Club rugby and School rugby was just like any other sport at school. it would open rugby to more players (no need to go to a certain school to have a hope of a rugby career), open it to a wider demographic, players leaving School are more likely to stay playing for the club that they have been playing with. An additional benefit is that it would help shed the elitist perception.

We all know Gaelic footballers who have tried rugby for a bit of fun, but most of the ones that I have know do this are in their early 20's, now if the under-age club scene had better coaching with the best players playing in it (rather than in schools, where these players will never get to play against them), then more players may be tempted at trying it at an earlier age. very few people are going to make a rugby career trying it for the first time aged 20, but they may if they were 14/15.

I tend to agree Kingshu.

Much as I'd like to see the almost single-minded focus on schools rugby end (and I'm the product of a Dublin rugby school) I can't see it happening unfortunately, and the Leinster (and I presume other provincial academies) will continue to be populated by the products of the private schools system. As long as the school and not the club are the pinnacle then the emergence of the likes of Sean O'Brien from a provincial club like Tullow will remain the exception, no matter what resources Leinster branch plough into rugby development outside the greater Dublin area.

And I know that the Kearney brothers, Darcy, Heaslip, Cullen are all from outside Dublin, but they are still the product of a Leinster schools rugby system which effectively excludes most people from the rest of the province.

Kingshu wrote:My personal opinion is that the Schools cup should be scrapped.

Will not happen I know, but I think its the way to move rugby forward.

If we look at football or Gaelic games these are focused on the Club, rather than School meaning that they are open to a wider pool of potential players. Schoolboys should play for their School but it shouldn't be deemed too important just like other School sports, they are there for an eduction after all its at the club they should receive the best rugby coaching.

Most sports underage are focused on the club and not Schools, Rugby is the only one I think that does. If under age players concentrated on Club rugby and School rugby was just like any other sport at school. it would open rugby to more players (no need to go to a certain school to have a hope of a rugby career), open it to a wider demographic, players leaving School are more likely to stay playing for the club that they have been playing with. An additional benefit is that it would help shed the elitist perception.

We all know Gaelic footballers who have tried rugby for a bit of fun, but most of the ones that I have know do this are in their early 20's, now if the under-age club scene had better coaching with the best players playing in it (rather than in schools, where these players will never get to play against them), then more players may be tempted at trying it at an earlier age. very few people are going to make a rugby career trying it for the first time aged 20, but they may if they were 14/15.

Have to say I’m not sure I agree. Do you really think these kids from non rugby families will choose to go to join the local club? My alma mater - Coleraine Inst has rugby as compulsory for the first 3/4 years (or at least did). I guarantee you a lot of these kids would never have chosen rugby if it were a choice never mind discover their potential or join their local club.

What if we made schools cup an u17 competition, scrap medallion. And send Upper 6th (year 14?) boys to the local club?

Kingshu wrote:My personal opinion is that the Schools cup should be scrapped.

Will not happen I know, but I think its the way to move rugby forward.

If we look at football or Gaelic games these are focused on the Club, rather than School meaning that they are open to a wider pool of potential players. Schoolboys should play for their School but it shouldn't be deemed too important just like other School sports, they are there for an eduction after all its at the club they should receive the best rugby coaching.

Most sports underage are focused on the club and not Schools, Rugby is the only one I think that does. If under age players concentrated on Club rugby and School rugby was just like any other sport at school. it would open rugby to more players (no need to go to a certain school to have a hope of a rugby career), open it to a wider demographic, players leaving School are more likely to stay playing for the club that they have been playing with. An additional benefit is that it would help shed the elitist perception.

We all know Gaelic footballers who have tried rugby for a bit of fun, but most of the ones that I have know do this are in their early 20's, now if the under-age club scene had better coaching with the best players playing in it (rather than in schools, where these players will never get to play against them), then more players may be tempted at trying it at an earlier age. very few people are going to make a rugby career trying it for the first time aged 20, but they may if they were 14/15.

Kingshu I have to disagree, the focus in Gaelic games is just not limited to schools but they are still a big deal. I know of some that have been lucky to represent their counties at underage level and this is while juggling commitments to club and school teams.

Any idea who we may be able to field on Friday night?

...mood really is at an all time low among the ulster fans on here it would seem.

Does nobody want to talk about Friday night at all??

Well, Jared Payne will be back. I hope we'll have a front row of some description. The back line looks in god shape with only Pienaar missing but we're still pretty certain to be without Fitzpatrick, Wilson, Tuohy and Best and injury doubts over Court, Black, Afoa, Lutton, Ferris and Diack.

I hope to hell we get at least some of those six back. I think Lutton was going to be okay- right?

Right?

Truth is Clive, I just don't know who they'll be able to patch up and put out on the pitch.

As I said before I just can't see how a patched up team will compete. This season can go and 'do-one' as far as I'm concerned

I have faith we'll win. We need big games from the likes of Nick Williams, Chris Henry, Iain Henderson, Johann Muller etc. The emotion of it being the official stadium opening and Mullers last home game won't fail to pump these guys up. Not to mention we're now being written off by all and sundry. Add in a festering sense of injustice from the quarter-final and it all points to a big performance coming down the tracks

But with our backs against the wall at Ravenhill, I think we'll do the business. Very similar to how we beat Leinster at their patch last year. Just a complete team performance in adversity. Similar situation in the front row then as well.

Notch wrote:Well, Jared Payne will be back. I hope we'll have a front row of some description. The back line looks in god shape with only Pienaar missing but we're still pretty certain to be without Fitzpatrick, Wilson, Tuohy and Best and injury doubts over Court, Black, Afoa, Lutton, Ferris and Diack.

I hope to hell we get at least some of those six back. I think Lutton was going to be okay- right?

Right?

Truth is Clive, I just don't know who they'll be able to patch up and put out on the pitch.

No doubt, at this stage of the season, they will go ahead and field players who probably should be recovering for a further week. Its a risk I'm happy to take at this stage too.

The backline could well be Marshall, Jackson, Bwoe, Marshall, Cave, Trimble, Payne. And you can't really have any problems with that.

In fairness, if we get a few of the fringe pack players to pull off the performance of their careers, we may just produce something.

Don't forget, this is Leinster. I still believe whoever takes to the pitch will step up. Especially under the captaincy of Muller who is most likely playing his last gave at Ravers.

I think there will be plenty of ulster players with a lot of fight left in them - feeling the pain of the HEC exit, remembering the pain at the hands of Leinster in the past few seasons.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/27204592#TWEET1115207

Looks bad for Stephen Ferris. Injured an ankle in training and is also having his knee assessed. But some really good news- Callum Black is back.

Video interview with Jared Payne. Hopefully this doesn't turn into yet another discussion, so ... shhhhhh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qy9Mn5cQ8Y

Chris Henry interview

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/27212709?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Shhhhhh, don't post that on any other threads!

As for the Chris Henry interview; there speaks the next Captain of Ulster.

I read on t'other forum that the Ferris injury is nothing to worry about. Just niggles after such a long lay off and it's not THE ankle he rolled this time. His knee is under constant assessment to monitor how it's reacting to playing rugby again.

Afoa is still recovering though and won't be available it seems but Callum Black will be. We may yet have a front row to face Leinster.

The good news is that should we reach the playoffs then Pienaar and Best should be OK along with other returnees. Our bare bones that we've been down to could be fleshed out if we can squeeze 2 wins from the remaining fixtures (or one win and a losing bonus point).
I saw Besty on monday still in the moon boot.

Notch wrote:Shhhhhh, don't post that on any other threads!

As for the Chris Henry interview; there speaks the next Captain of Ulster.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Notch wrote:Shhhhhh, don't post that on any other threads!

As for the Chris Henry interview; there speaks the next Captain of Ulster.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Portnoys someone's been swapping the keys on your keyboard again, get them back to qwertyuiop before disaster strikes   

I'm sure you would be happy to guard the guards Portnoy lol

Andrew Trimble is Player of the Season- he's won the club award, the rugby writers award and the Supporters Club award. Pretty unanimous.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/1481/Trimble-a-triple-winner-at-Heineken-Ulster-Rugby-Awards.aspx

Notch wrote:Andrew Trimble is Player of the Season- he's won the club award, the rugby writers award and the Supporters Club award. Pretty unanimous.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/1481/Trimble-a-triple-winner-at-Heineken-Ulster-Rugby-Awards.aspx

MrsP likes this!

Andrew Trimble has had an amazing season. His selection for Ireland in the 6N was absolutely warranted after his form leading up. One of my favourite ever players and I was delighted to see his form get him back in the Ireland setup. Always thought that he was one of the forgotten men in Ireland rugby.

Massive congrats to him.

I think he is going to take the IRUPA gong this year.

Niall Francis has some interesting stuff on Ulster (& Leinster) in the Indo today, including that Ruan Pienaar was offered 70K a month by Toulon and that Jared Payne is on massive money. Says that Ulster have private investors as well to help with the bills. Afoa was on 415K and Payne is on similar now.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/rabodirect-pro12/neil-francis-leinster-and-ulster-need-a-rabo-to-rescue-seasons-of-lost-promise-30242250.html

Sin é wrote:Niall Francis has some interesting stuff on Ulster (& Leinster) in the Indo today, including that Ruan Pienaar was offered 70K a month by Toulon and that Jared Payne is on massive money. Says that Ulster have private investors as well to help with the bills. Afoa was on 415K and Payne is on similar now.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/rabodirect-pro12/neil-francis-leinster-and-ulster-need-a-rabo-to-rescue-seasons-of-lost-promise-30242250.html

Sorry Sin have to correct a few points of terminology;

1) Interesting thoughts
A mentally ill tramp on meth has 'interesting thoughts'. Publicly confessed homophobe Neil Francis has incoherent rants. At least the tramp might verify some of his 'facts' with evidence...

2) Says that Ulster have private investors
Speculates that Ulster have private investors based on...? Journalism is making a claim like that and backing it up with evidence. Bad journalism is making a claim like that and backing it up with tenuous evidence. Speculation is making claims that have no evidence. It might be right, but it isn't providing any more proof than a drunk rambling in a pub. Jared Payne is on a central contract now so the wage burden for him, rightly or wrongly, doesn't fall on Ulster but the IRFU. Ulster have a smaller squad than the other provinces. John Afoa is also on a reduced deal due to negotiating extra time off. If Ulster had private investors would they be replacing someone like Afoa with someone like Herbst? He seems to genuinely not believe that Pienaar would turn down more money because he doesn't want to uproot a young family who are happy and settled here. It's not like Ulster are paying him peanuts already. He gets by. No way Ulster could match Toulons offer.

There's nothing in that article but whataboutery and speculation and his comments about the Ravenhill crowd defy belief to the point where they are more amusing than anything else. His comments about the Payne-Goode collision are baffling to me as they seem to be based entirely on his own wishful thinking and not the actual video he refers to.

Personally, after his comments on gay rugby players, I'm just disgusted he still has a job. He should be tarred and feathered and run out of town, the lanky streak of existential pointlessness. He's a dinosaur masquerading as an idiot masquerading as an incredibly bad journalist.

Sin é wrote:Niall Francis has some interesting stuff on Ulster (& Leinster) in the Indo today, including that Ruan Pienaar was offered 70K a month by Toulon and that Jared Payne is on massive money. Says that Ulster have private investors as well to help with the bills. Afoa was on 415K and Payne is on similar now.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/rabodirect-pro12/neil-francis-leinster-and-ulster-need-a-rabo-to-rescue-seasons-of-lost-promise-30242250.html

Jeez - talk about opinionated. I just assumed I was reading Georgie Hook until I glanced up at the top of the page. Couple of things:

1. that fisheye lens shot of the new Ravenhill at the top of the page is beautiful. A stadium to be proud of. How long before the naming rights are sold to free up money for some new players?

2. pretty disrespectful about Afoa who clearly likes the club and has been a good servant to it:

John Afoa, who allegedly was taking home £415,000, buggers off to Gloucester who are offering more dough following Pedrie Wannenberg who had gone before him.

3. I wonder if his criticism of Payne for the yellow card would have been quite a bit less had Payne been a Gryffindor House Irish pureblood, rather than one of those mucky Kiwis.

Francis is a complete tool, and I think most of those who read his comments realise this.

"...Ulster lost by two points. If Ruan Pienaar had been on the park — even with a man down — you would have fancied them to win. If he is fit for Dublin in two weeks, Ulster will have a chance. Pienaar's presence in the squad in many regards is difficult to comprehend. When Mourad Boudjellal took out his wallet to try and replace the ineffectual Stefan Tillous-Borde, you figured that would be a done deal and Ulster would lose their playmaker. The deal that was offered to Pienaar was somewhere north of £70,000 per month — that's Jonny Wilko territory.

The question that has to be asked is not how much Ulster are paying him, it is who is paying him? Ulster have presumably tapped into the commercial sector in order to pay their man above any other player on this island. You have to credit Humphreys for his vision and bloody-mindedness for thinking outside the box and getting a player who was equal to the sum of the parts to stay within his roster. "

Absolute garbage from the weak journalist that Francis is. In a recorded interview, Pienaar was asked about the rumoured £70k a month, and his response was to laugh, saying that it wasn't close to that.
Had to laugh at the comment on how it's the fans fault that Ulster lost the games by firing up the players too much    Man's clueless, and bitter.

I suspect what lies behind his latest rant is the thought that Payne, not Irish born, might play for Ireland.

Notch, in fairness to Francis he did apologise and said he was wrong making those homophobic comments.

Is that good enough though?

Does that not just mean he is a homophobe who regrets that he let it show?

Thats exactly what it means. He has a position of privilege and responsibility which he has abused. That said, this isn't exactly on topic for the rugby section so let's leave it there.

Francis is a bigger wind-up merchant than anyone on here. His history of Ulsterphobia is even longer than that of his homophobia. He was wrong about Rory Best being a single cell amoeba and Bowe being the slowest winger to ever play for Ireland, and he is wrong in his latest playground name-calling.

George C you got his house wrong, Franno is a Slytherin from his forked tongue to his scaly tail.

Blah blah blah ULSTER ARE BAD.

Thanks for the input, Franno.

The Great Aukster wrote:Francis is a bigger wind-up merchant than anyone on here. His history of Ulsterphobia is even longer than that of his homophobia. He was wrong about Rory Best being a single cell amoeba and Bowe being the slowest winger to ever play for Ireland, and he is wrong in his latest playground name-calling.

George C you got his house wrong, Franno is a Slytherin from his forked tongue to his scaly tail.

  There's some of that about amongst Irish pundits, mind.

I think I was watching the after match RTE show on Glasgow v Ulster earlier in the season and Mr George Hook was, how can I put this, slightly disparaging about "faaaaarighnars" playing for Ireland.

MrsP wrote:Is that good enough though?

Does that not just mean he is a homophobe who regrets that he let it show?

I'm no fan of Frannos, but you can't hold that against him for ever.

I don't think he is the only one in the world to think that gay men are more likely to be hairdressers than professional sports players, though.

More fool those who pay this idiot for his journalistic vomit. Frances has been writing this kind of maddening tripe for far too long but if those who run indo can't see this then it most probably says as much about them as it does about it's ill-informed author. He may have had some limited knowledge of rugby back in the amateur days but he displays nothing but ignorance of modern game. That and his hatred of all things Ulster.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/1488/Ian-Humphreys-to-return-to-Ulster-Rugby-.aspx

No one seen that coming!   

I know they've been completely redoing ravenhill but i never thought they would install a turnstile on the pitch!

Seeing as this has been pretty much a done deal for months it's about time it was made official.

I hear he may have a new tackling style. No more turnstile style, no more dodging oncoming players, no more jumping on their backs and going for a ride. Now he lies down and hopes they trip on him.

For all his failings iHump has redeeming features in stacks. He can go from mercurial to utter tripe from one game to the next. The bonus feature this time is that he's not our first choice and will provide ample backup so we only have to play him when his confidence is high