The New European Cup Thread (Merged)

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Can anyone provide an update on what is going to actually happen from next season?

A factual update would be welcome. As brief as possible.

Opinionated views not so.

[englandglory4ever]

Any minute now we will hear the details of a new European rugby championship competition. From what I've seen it should be a fair and balanced competition where all parties benefit. Independent people at the top with all-party representation based in a neutral country. No more Dublin bias. Three levels of competition to cater for all. The game in the NH can only benefit and prosper. A proper competition based on merit. Can't wait. The SH better watch out we are coming to get you.

[Sin é]

Any minute now we will hear the details of a new European rugby championship competition. From what I've seen it should be a fair and balanced competition where all parties benefit. Independent people at the top with all-party representation based in a neutral country. No more Dublin bias. Three levels of competition to cater for all. The game in the NH can only benefit and prosper. A proper competition based on merit. Can't wait. The SH better watch out we are coming to get you.

Can you give me a few examples of what you mean by Dublin bias?

[englandglory4ever]

The HC ruling body ERC is based in Dublin. No prizes for guessing who they supported the most. They will be wound up.

[GunsGerms]

The HC ruling body ERC is based in Dublin. No prizes for guessing who they supported the most. They will be wound up.

Embarassed for you. Id be amazed if you could point out one single example of bias towards Irish teams.

[Scrumpy]

Can't believe some of you are being so negative!

This is the start of a great journey for our game, long over due imo.

[geoff998rugby]

Maybe some of believe in substance not hyperbole

Maybe some of us are not interested in a journey whose logical conclusion is a few super clubs in France and England and sod the rest

Maybe some of us see the International game being downgraded if clubs rule the roost

Maybe just maybe...

[broadlandboy]

Unfortunately that comes from being professional. If teams don't work as a business they wouldn't be able to compete.

[beshocked]

Londontiger if Edward Griffiths is asked his opinion by the media - what do you expect him to say? Be quiet on the matter?

I think it's easy to people to choose villains/scapegoats when numerous other CEOs cower in the corner not having their say. It's easy to use someone else as a meat shield to deflect criticism.

I applaud Edward Griffiths for giving his opinion on the matter.  

Portnoy Complaint self serving seeking assassins? What's it like on that golden high horse of yours?

Alasbut100ofus if you think that chairman like Bruce Craig and Nigel Wray are not immensely passionate about sport then you are highly naive.

Easy to judge and criticise people you've never met.

[GunsGerms]

The new tournament will tip the balance too much in favour of English and French clubs. Dark day for European rugby. Hopefully the voting structure will remain the same and the unions retain control or else we may as well wind up the Rabo now because it will be gone in 10 years.

[geoff998rugby]

The HC ruling body ERC is based in Dublin. No prizes for guessing who they supported the most. They will be wound up.

It will be based in Geneva so who is that bias to

Enough of your groundless tripe

[Geordie]

Arent the IRB based in Ireland aswell and they hardly show any bias.

It will be interesting to see if every party is happy when it actually gets up and running. Nice to see a development tournament aswell...should encourage teams from lower tiers to come in...Germany etc...

[Scrumpy]

Maybe some of believe in substance not hyperbole

Maybe some of us are not interested in a journey whose logical conclusion is a few super clubs in France and England and sod the rest

Maybe some of us see the International game being downgraded if clubs rule the roost

Maybe just maybe...

   oh dear!

How on earth will the International game be downgraded?    

Change must be embraced not feared!

[Sin é]

The HC ruling body ERC is based in Dublin. No prizes for guessing who they supported the most. They will be wound up.

I know they are based in Dublin. Now answer the question and give me a few examples of what you mean by Dublin bias.

[rodders]

What odds an inaugural Irish winner? I can see the English teams being too tired in this one too   .

Shouldn't this be in the club section?

[GunsGerms]

The HC ruling body ERC is based in Dublin. No prizes for guessing who they supported the most. They will be wound up.

I know they are based in Dublin. Now answer the question and give me a few examples of what you mean by Dublin bias.

Would be shocked if he can come up with one.

[munkian]

The HC ruling body ERC is based in Dublin. No prizes for guessing who they supported the most. They will be wound up.

I know they are based in Dublin. Now answer the question and give me a few examples of what you mean by Dublin bias.

Would be shocked if he can come up with one.

Would be shocked if he dresses himself...

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

[englandglory4ever]

The elephant is in the room. HQ will be in a neutral country. Enough said.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Portnoy Complaint self serving seeking assassins? What's it like on that golden high horse of yours?

Great!

You can smell the bull-sh!t for miles and you can spot the turds from afar.

p.s. I don't have to meet a public person to make a judgement on his/her character.
All I have to do is read their pulic utterings.

That Nigel Farage seems an entirely affable bloke. But I don't like his politics.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Londontiger if Edward Griffiths is asked his opinion by the media - what do you expect him to say? Be quiet on the matter?

I think it's easy to people to choose villains/scapegoats when numerous other CEOs cower in the corner not having their say. It's easy to use someone else as a meat shield to deflect criticism.

I applaud Edward Griffiths for giving his opinion on the matter.  

Portnoy Complaint self serving seeking assassins? What's it like on that golden high horse of yours?

Alasbut100ofus if you think that chairman like Bruce Craig and Nigel Wray are not immensely passionate about sport then you are highly naive.

Easy to judge and criticise people you've never met.

I imagine they are, beshocked, but its business first, sport second, and you know it

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Maybe some of believe in substance not hyperbole

Maybe some of us are not interested in a journey whose logical conclusion is a few super clubs in France and England and sod the rest

Maybe some of us see the International game being downgraded if clubs rule the roost

Maybe just maybe...

   oh dear!

How on earth will the International game be downgraded?    

Change must be embraced not feared!

Isn't that what the Nazis said?

[HammerofThunor]

If they were business first, sport second, why the    would they invest in a rugby club? Hopeful of the day they'll be able to pay back the multi-million £ loans? I doubt that will ever happen.

[HammerofThunor]

Maybe some of believe in substance not hyperbole

Maybe some of us are not interested in a journey whose logical conclusion is a few super clubs in France and England and sod the rest

Maybe some of us see the International game being downgraded if clubs rule the roost

Maybe just maybe...

   oh dear!

How on earth will the International game be downgraded?    

Change must be embraced not feared!

Isn't that what the Nazis said?

WTF?

[LondonTiger]

Isn't that what the Nazis said?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

If they were business first, sport second, why the    would they invest in a rugby club? Hopeful of the day they'll be able to pay back the multi-million £ loans? I doubt that will ever happen.

Really? Now who's being naive? Have you seen how football in England operates these days? That's the direction we're headed, whether you or I like it or not

[GunsGerms]

The elephant is in the room. HQ will be in a neutral country. Enough said.

and exactly what does that achieve? Further travel for everyone? The stupidity of needing to relocate to Geneva is astounding.

[Sin é]

The elephant is in the room. HQ will be in a neutral country. Enough said.

No. You haven said enough yet.

One example of bias please?

[Sin é]

The elephant is in the room. HQ will be in a neutral country. Enough said.

and exactly what does that achieve? Further travel for everyone? The stupidity of needing to relocate to Geneva is astounding.

Increase in admin costs of 35%, not to mention the loss of the tax exemption.

Ireland are well rid of it though. I'd hate to see those PRL spivs benefiting from the Irish taxpayer.

[HammerofThunor]

If they were business first, sport second, why the    would they invest in a rugby club? Hopeful of the day they'll be able to pay back the multi-million £ loans? I doubt that will ever happen.

Really?  Now who's being naive?  Have you seen how football in England operates these days?  That's the direction we're headed, whether you or I like it or not

Naive? I'm curious about how Craig will get the ridiculous amount of money back from Bath? People keeps saying they're in it for the money but never really go into details. If Bath start making a profile then they can start to pay him back. If he sells he can try and include the debt in the sale. What's happened previously is the holder of the debt (the owner) has written the debt off to get a sale. So again, how do they make the money back?

[HammerofThunor]

I think it's pretty disgusting that they were avoiding tax at all. The profits are made around in different countries so they should pay a share of tax in those counties. The IRFU don't need to pay as much as they're largely in Ireland but the rest should. Not really up on my tax stuff but it stinks to me.

PS No better going Swiss if all the tax is paid there.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

If they were business first, sport second, why the    would they invest in a rugby club? Hopeful of the day they'll be able to pay back the multi-million £ loans? I doubt that will ever happen.

Really?  Now who's being naive?  Have you seen how football in England operates these days?  That's the direction we're headed, whether you or I like it or not

Naive? I'm curious about how Craig will get the ridiculous amount of money back from Bath? People keeps saying they're in it for the money but never really go into details.  If Bath start making a profile then they can start to pay him back.  If he sells he can try and include the debt in the sale. What's happened previously is the holder of the debt (the owner) has written the debt off to get a sale. So again, how do they make the money back?

There are games to be played in the world of finance, Thunor - viz the Glazers at Manchester United as an example.

And then we have the situation in which rugby becomes the preserve of a handful of very wealthy folk with competition a mere secondary consideration, some distance behind willy-wanging

[Sin é]

I think it's pretty disgusting that they were avoiding tax at all.  The profits are made around in different countries so they should pay a share of tax in those counties. The IRFU don't need to pay as much as they're largely in Ireland but the rest should. Not really up on my tax stuff but it stinks to me.

PS No better going Swiss if all the tax is paid there.

They were not avoiding tax. Sporting organisations (that reinvest their profits back into sport) are tax exempt in Ireland. That meant that the ERC / IRB had more money to distribute to its shareholders who can (and will) pay tax in their own country.

Irish professional sports people get tax incentives to remain playing in Ireland because it is regarded as good for the country.

edit: different countries have different tax regimes. Are you suggesting that for instance, each union/club would invoice Sky/BT for their own country's share in the media rights. Same with Heineken?

[Scrumpy]

Maybe these rich men that so many of you fear and loath are just fans of the game?

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Isn't that what the Nazis said?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

So the first item of evidence for the prosecution, M'Lud is http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/sep/24/saracens-attacking-flair-world-domination

[GunsGerms]

I think it's pretty disgusting that they were avoiding tax at all.  The profits are made around in different countries so they should pay a share of tax in those counties. The IRFU don't need to pay as much as they're largely in Ireland but the rest should. Not really up on my tax stuff but it stinks to me.

PS No better going Swiss if all the tax is paid there.

There is nothing wrong with benefitting from the tax laws of the country you are incorporated in regardless of where the profits come from provided they are arent doing anything illegal which they arent. Corporate governance and compliance in Ireland is as good as in any EU state which is up there with the most dillegent in the world so I doubt there is any wrong doing at all.

Switzerland is a non EU member state and a secrecy jurisdiction which has secrecy laws. I would be much more concerned about any company incorporated there as there isnt the same level of transparency and EU supervision.

[geoff998rugby]

Maybe some of believe in substance not hyperbole

Maybe some of us are not interested in a journey whose logical conclusion is a few super clubs in France and England and sod the rest

Maybe some of us see the International game being downgraded if clubs rule the roost

Maybe just maybe...

   oh dear!

How on earth will the International game be downgraded?    

Change must be embraced not feared!

Change is great but not change that puts more power into the clubs - simple

[XR]

"I think some of the Welsh Rugby Union's behaviour has been erratic and unpredictable," Griffiths said


What's that? The WRU being erratic? Who would have known! Maybe Roger Lewis was shellshocked that he could only buy off 1 welsh international and went loopy?

Or maybe he was just being the egomaniac that we expected him to be?

[Rugby Fan]

I never had a problem with an organization being based in Dublin.

Unfortunately, it speaks volumes about the failure of the ERC to balance the interests of all parties that even its location came to be regarded with suspicion.

[Scrumpy]

Maybe some of believe in substance not hyperbole

Maybe some of us are not interested in a journey whose logical conclusion is a few super clubs in France and England and sod the rest

Maybe some of us see the International game being downgraded if clubs rule the roost

Maybe just maybe...

   oh dear!

How on earth will the International game be downgraded?    

Change must be embraced not feared!

Change is great but not change that puts more power into the clubs - simple

But you must understand that the clubs are the heart and soul of our game. Pure and simple.   

[GunsGerms]

I never had a problem with an organization being based in Dublin.

Unfortunately, it speaks volumes about the failure of the ERC to balance the interests of all parties that even its location came to be regarded with suspicion.

I think it says a lot more about the PRL to be honest and the stupidity of the majority of their demands and negotiations.

[geoff998rugby]

No the game as whole is the heart and sole of the game - schools, local clubs, professional clubs, international rugby.

The health of the game is ensured by having a balance between all elements.
If one element becomes the only significant power the other elements suffer - that is the road that a handful of English and French clubs want to travel.

[HammerofThunor]

I think it's pretty disgusting that they were avoiding tax at all.  The profits are made around in different countries so they should pay a share of tax in those counties. The IRFU don't need to pay as much as they're largely in Ireland but the rest should. Not really up on my tax stuff but it stinks to me.

PS No better going Swiss if all the tax is paid there.

They were not avoiding tax. Sporting organisations (that reinvest their profits back into sport) are tax exempt in Ireland. That meant that the ERC / IRB had more money to distribute to its shareholders who can (and will) pay tax in their own country.

Irish professional sports people get tax incentives to remain playing in Ireland because it is regarded as good for the country.

edit: different countries have different tax regimes. Are you suggesting that for instance, each union/club would invoice Sky/BT for their own country's share in the media rights. Same with Heineken?

Actually yes I would like to split the TV rights for each country. But I'd prefer for each union to take their profit and then pay tax on it in the country.

But doesn't the ERC make no profit anyway? It's given out to the unions as payments and then the left over is profit. Same as the PRL. So do they actually save much? As I said I don't really know how it works.

[HammerofThunor]

I never had a problem with an organization being based in Dublin.

Unfortunately, it speaks volumes about the failure of the ERC to balance the interests of all parties that even its location came to be regarded with suspicion.

I think it says a lot more about the PRL to be honest and the stupidity of the majority of their demands and negotiations.

It was the French who had a bee in the bonnet about Dublin.

[Scrumpy]

But times have changed, its a nice image to hold onto but Rugby is now a business like it or not and it was always going to be the case once the game turned Pro, if anything it has taken too long to get where we are today but I'm glad things are starting to move forward.

It is possible for a club to be run as a business and still play an important part in a community developing and encouraging youngsters to play he game, there are many examples of this in that evil game called Football.

Embrace the change as Rugby Union has a bright future in Europe.

[HammerofThunor]

I think it's pretty disgusting that they were avoiding tax at all.  The profits are made around in different countries so they should pay a share of tax in those counties. The IRFU don't need to pay as much as they're largely in Ireland but the rest should. Not really up on my tax stuff but it stinks to me.

PS No better going Swiss if all the tax is paid there.

There is nothing wrong with benefitting from the tax laws of the country you are incorporated in regardless of where the profits come from provided they are arent doing anything illegal which they arent. Corporate governance and compliance in Ireland is as good as in any EU state which is up there with the most dillegent in the world so I doubt there is any wrong doing at all.

Switzerland is a non EU member state and a secrecy jurisdiction which has secrecy laws. I would be much more concerned about any company incorporated there as there isnt the same level of transparency and EU supervision.

Nor were Starbucks or Amazon doing anything illegal.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

"I think some of the Welsh Rugby Union's behaviour has been erratic and unpredictable," Griffiths said


What's that? The WRU being erratic? Who would have known! Maybe Roger Lewis was shellshocked that he could only buy off 1 welsh international and went loopy?

Or maybe he was just being the egomaniac that we expected him to be?

"I think some of the PRL's behaviour has been erratic and unpredictable," Roger Lewis said

[GunsGerms]

That was in the UK not Ireland and you are dealing with huge differences in scale.

[HammerofThunor]

Not sure if it's been erratic or unpredictable. They've been pretty consistent and predictable. Their aim is destroy all rugby outside their remit.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Indeed

[Sponsored content]