The New European Cup Thread (Merged)

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Can anyone provide an update on what is going to actually happen from next season?

A factual update would be welcome. As brief as possible.

Opinionated views not so.

[HammerofThunor]

Starbucks weren't paying tax in the UK because they were moving all their profits to a low tax country. Isn't that what the ERC doing?

But as I said before, they don't make much profit because the payouts to partners comes before the profit is sorted. Not sure if it's before tax or not.

[Sin é]

I think it's pretty disgusting that they were avoiding tax at all.  The profits are made around in different countries so they should pay a share of tax in those counties. The IRFU don't need to pay as much as they're largely in Ireland but the rest should. Not really up on my tax stuff but it stinks to me.

PS No better going Swiss if all the tax is paid there.

They were not avoiding tax. Sporting organisations (that reinvest their profits back into sport) are tax exempt in Ireland. That meant that the ERC / IRB had more money to distribute to its shareholders who can (and will) pay tax in their own country.

Irish professional sports people get tax incentives to remain playing in Ireland because it is regarded as good for the country.

edit: different countries have different tax regimes. Are you suggesting that for instance, each union/club would invoice Sky/BT for their own country's share in the media rights. Same with Heineken?

Actually yes I would like to split the TV rights for each country.  But I'd prefer for each union to take their profit and then pay tax on it in the country.

But doesn't the ERC make no profit anyway? It's given out to the unions as payments and then the left over is profit. Same as the PRL. So do they actually save much? As I said I don't really know how it works.

To take that to its logical conclusion then, do you think the PRL should split their tv money by the number of people who watch the games. For example, should Leicester / Northampton get more media money than say, Worchester or Sarries because they have more fans and better viewing figures on tv.

My point is that no media company would entertain having to negotiate with 24 clubs for media rights. How to you split Scarlets v Exeter, Leicester v Ospreys?

I don't know how the ERC tax exemption works, but I see both PRL & WRU pay tax unlike the ERC & IRFU. The B&I Lions also moved to Dublin, so it must be worth their while.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Tell you what, to be completely "fair", why guarantee any number of entrants from any country? We could simply go with the top 20 from the good old Eurorankings: http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?name=Rcurrent

[Sin é]

Starbucks weren't paying tax in the UK because they were moving all their profits to a low tax country. Isn't that what the ERC doing?

But as I said before, they don't make much profit because the payouts to partners comes before the profit is sorted. Not sure if it's before tax or not.

Its a sporting tax exemption, not low corporate tax rate/tax haven like Jersey. Ireland gives a sporting tax exemption to sporting organisations (not all, just the amateur ones like Olympics, Canoeing, Ski Federation. UEFA pay tax in Switzerland. NewERC will have to pay some tax in Switzerland). And of course there is the 35% hike in admin costs moving to Switzerland.

One thing that will probably go up, are ticket prices for the Final. There is no VAT on match tickets in Ireland.

[GunsGerms]

The only reason I can see for moving it to Geneva is so that the PRL can exert more control if the ERC is dismantled and perhaps benefit from less transparency in Switzerland.

[HammerofThunor]

Sure. 9 French, 7 English and 3 Irish. I'd probably drop the 20th (English) and make it Amlin winner. Then 19 in second competition with the winner of the 3rd tier.

[geoff998rugby]

Tell you what, to be completely "fair", why guarantee any number of entrants from any country?  We could simply go with the top 20 from the good old Eurorankings: http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?name=Rcurrent

Exactly true meritocracy would not ring fence 6 places for 2 countries

[HammerofThunor]

To take that to its logical conclusion then, do you think the PRL should split their tv money by the number of people who watch the games. For example, should Leicester / Northampton get more media money than say, Worchester or Sarries because they have more fans and better viewing figures on tv.

My point is that no media company would entertain having to negotiate with 24 clubs for media rights. How to you split Scarlets v Exeter, Leicester v Ospreys?

I don't know how the ERC tax exemption works, but I see both PRL & WRU pay tax unlike the ERC & IRFU. The B&I Lions also moved to Dublin, so it must be worth their while.

That's not the logical conclusion of what I said. Because I didn't say they various groups should get the money raised for the different areas, I said the local government should get the tax. They can split the money however they want (based on number of home games makes sense to me, which is basically by team)

[HammerofThunor]

The only reason I can see for moving it to Geneva is so that the PRL can exert more control if the ERC is dismantled and perhaps benefit from less transparency in Switzerland.

The French were the ones who wanted it moved. They've been banging on about it for years (especially since Tincu's ban)

[slane]

Any minute now we will hear the details of a new European rugby championship competition. From what I've seen it should be a fair and balanced competition where all parties benefit. Independent people at the top with all-party representation based in a neutral country. No more Dublin bias. Three levels of competition to cater for all. The game in the NH can only benefit and prosper. A proper competition based on merit. Can't wait. The SH better watch out we are coming to get you.

There never was any Dublin bias, they were based in Dublin because they paid less tax there, surely to god you have enough sense to know that.

And what of this 'bias,' you talk about balance, however, all I can see is more English and French teams and less Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Italian teams, thats hardly balanced, sure it might work in England and Frances favour in the short term but what does it do for the NH game or the World game in the long term?

From where I stand it's a backwards step because the pro-12 teams are now in a weaker position and just like football the countries with the bigger population are calling the shots, not balanced, not all inclusive and in the end meaningless to the world because if rugby is only important in select countries (England, France, NZ, Aus, SA) then who cares how many HC, 6 Nations, B&I or RWCs a team/players win?

[HammerofThunor]

Starbucks weren't paying tax in the UK because they were moving all their profits to a low tax country. Isn't that what the ERC doing?

But as I said before, they don't make much profit because the payouts to partners comes before the profit is sorted. Not sure if it's before tax or not.

Its a sporting tax exemption, not low corporate tax rate/tax haven like Jersey. Ireland gives a sporting tax exemption to sporting organisations (not all, just the amateur ones like Olympics, Canoeing, Ski Federation. UEFA pay tax in Switzerland. NewERC will have to pay some tax in Switzerland). And of course there is the 35% hike in admin costs moving to Switzerland.

One thing that will probably go up, are ticket prices for the Final. There is no VAT on match tickets in Ireland.

The is tax exemption in Ireland compared with the UK. I fail to see the relevance of whether it is corporate, sporting or whatever. The ERC makes money out of the UK so they should pay tax to the UK. The fact they don't stinks. Tax avoidance rather than tax evasion. Not illegal, just wrong.

If the PRL didn't pay tax it would be very disappointing.

[HammerofThunor]

Tell you what, to be completely "fair", why guarantee any number of entrants from any country?  We could simply go with the top 20 from the good old Eurorankings: http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?name=Rcurrent

Exactly true meritocracy would not ring fence 6 places for 2 countries

And why is that the case? The same reason the Unions didn't stick to their guns and leave out the English. Because the English are revenue generators (if the reports are true and Sky and BT are mainly focused on divvying up the English games). Because they know they will get more sponsorship, more TV money if the English are involved. A bigger English involvement will mean more money for them. Please don't pretend it's anything else.

[Scrumpy]

Why are people worried about the ring fenced 6 places for English and French clubs, when compared to the Rabo where by pretty much the whole league qualifed automatically year after year just for turning up.

Double standards!

[BigTrevsbigmac]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26760524

I wonder who he could be talking about?

[GunsGerms]

So England and France are guarenteed 6 teams with a potential 7th in a play off. While Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy are each guarenteed 1 team.

Thats really fair. Well dont PRL, bunch of____________

[No9]

One thing I haven't heard about, is who will have the TV coverage rights. As the new tournament isn't the existing HC and not the proposed RC, has BT or Sky won the coverage rights, or is it to be shared...

Anyone heard... Doesn't seem to be any snippets out there on who will show the games.

[gregortree]

I liked the quote from Sarries chief on radio 4 this morning on the difficulties of getting this together , something along the lins of:

" .. there were some big egos trapped inside small minds..."

    

he didn't elaborate and I've no idea to whom he was referring   

[Guest]

Tell you what, to be completely "fair", why guarantee any number of entrants from any country?  We could simply go with the top 20 from the good old Eurorankings: http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?name=Rcurrent

Exactly true meritocracy would not ring fence 6 places for 2 countries

And why is that the case? The same reason the Unions didn't stick to their guns and leave out the English. Because the English are revenue generators (if the reports are true and Sky and BT are mainly focused on divvying up the English games). Because they know they will get more sponsorship, more TV money if the English are involved. A bigger English involvement will mean more money for them. Please don't pretend it's anything else.

Mainly focused on divvying up the English games? I had read that they were focused on divvying up all games, but then maybe you're right. The Irish are hardly an attraction are they? The real money spinner would be to just show English v English games.

This broadcasting pick deal sounds a nightmare. Would it really mean fans have to subscribe to both Sky and BT to watch all Euro games? If that's true it will already be a lesser tournament.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Ifs ands, buts, pots, pans.

Wysiwig, Munchkin, wysiwyg.

Its what it says on the tin marked Compromise.

[GunsGerms]

Probably himself. What a stupid comment to make. Some arrogance.

[Guest]

Ifs ands, buts, pots, pans.

Wysiwig, Munchkin, wysiwyg.

Its what it says on the tin marked Compromise.

Wysiwyg indeed, and if my reading of this is correct wysiwyg will be less than now. For compromise read devalue.

Hopefully I'm wrong.

[Geordie]

So England and France are guarenteed 6 teams with a potential 7th in a play off. While Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy are each guarenteed 1 team.

Thats really fair. Well dont PRL, bunch of____________

The problem comes that the RABO whilst many nations is considered on the basis of it being one league.

I can see the arguements of both sides to be fair and i think its a difficult one to tackle...

[Portnoy's Complaint]

There's another storm brewing if the future of BBC funding talk is anything more than the flap of a butterfly's wing, Munch.

'FTA' might become subscription pay-to-view.

[geoff998rugby]

Why are people worried about the ring fenced 6 places for English and French clubs, when compared to the Rabo where by pretty much the whole league qualifed automatically year after year just for turning up.

Double standards!

There are 6 top flight European Nations - 2 are guaranteed 6 places, the other 4 are guaranteed 1 - thats double standards !!

[GunsGerms]

So England and France are guarenteed 6 teams with a potential 7th in a play off. While Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy are each guarenteed 1 team.

Thats really fair. Well dont PRL, bunch of____________

The problem comes that the RABO whilst many nations is considered on the basis of it being one league.

I can see the arguements of both sides to be fair and i think its a difficult one to tackle...

It is but all things considered the balance was more than fair the way it was as the English and French teams already had greater representation now it is a pi$$ take IMO.

[geoff998rugby]

Tell you what, to be completely "fair", why guarantee any number of entrants from any country?  We could simply go with the top 20 from the good old Eurorankings: http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?name=Rcurrent

Exactly true meritocracy would not ring fence 6 places for 2 countries

And why is that the case? The same reason the Unions didn't stick to their guns and leave out the English. Because the English are revenue generators (if the reports are true and Sky and BT are mainly focused on divvying up the English games). Because they know they will get more sponsorship, more TV money if the English are involved. A bigger English involvement will mean more money for them. Please don't pretend it's anything else.

Not pretending anything.
What you do confirm though is what we all know it is all about the big boys throwing their weight around - it isn't because of the respective abilities of the teams involved.

[Sin é]

Starbucks weren't paying tax in the UK because they were moving all their profits to a low tax country. Isn't that what the ERC doing?

But as I said before, they don't make much profit because the payouts to partners comes before the profit is sorted. Not sure if it's before tax or not.

Its a sporting tax exemption, not low corporate tax rate/tax haven like Jersey. Ireland gives a sporting tax exemption to sporting organisations (not all, just the amateur ones like Olympics, Canoeing, Ski Federation. UEFA pay tax in Switzerland. NewERC will have to pay some tax in Switzerland). And of course there is the 35% hike in admin costs moving to Switzerland.

One thing that will probably go up, are ticket prices for the Final. There is no VAT on match tickets in Ireland.

The is tax exemption in Ireland compared with the UK. I fail to see the relevance of whether it is corporate, sporting or whatever.  The ERC makes money out of the UK so they should pay tax to the UK.  The fact they don't stinks. Tax avoidance rather than tax evasion. Not illegal, just wrong.

If the PRL didn't pay tax it would be very disappointing.

So if I sell a product into the UK, I should pay my tax there (i.e., Monaghan Mushrooms should be paying tax in the UK?)

How do you work out the ticket sales to Quins v Munster? Munster provided half the product and half the fans. Does that mean that they should be only taxed on half of what they made on ticket sales?

Should Munster's match fee be taxed in England on the money they earned playing in England?

It goes on and on.

[gregortree]

He was glowing about the Welsh clubs attitude, less so about the WRU.
But ignoring nationalisms just for a moment if possible, European comp seem more about clubs / not countries.

[Guest]

There's another storm brewing if the future of BBC funding talk is anything more than the flap of a butterfly's wing, Munch.

'FTA' might become subscription pay-to-view.

That on top of the tv licence? Good old BBC eh?

[Scrumpy]

Why are people worried about the ring fenced 6 places for English and French clubs, when compared to the Rabo where by pretty much the whole league qualifed automatically year after year just for turning up.

Double standards!

There are 6 top flight European Nations - 2 are guaranteed 6 places, the other 4 are guaranteed 1 - thats double standards !!

Some teams will just have to work harder to qualify for the Euro Cup that is true, but that is a good thing for the Rabo. I'm sure the Rabo fans will enjoy watching a competitive league all season.

The Euro Cup should be for the teams that have earned the right to be there.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

What you do confirm though is what we all know it is all about the big boys throwing their weight around - it isn't because of the respective abilities of the teams involved.

Entirely analogous to the demands to retain the 6Ns in its current format in the face of the claims of certain of us that it is 'unfair' to the likes of Ukraine and Romania.

[Guest]

Why are people worried about the ring fenced 6 places for English and French clubs, when compared to the Rabo where by pretty much the whole league qualifed automatically year after year just for turning up.

Double standards!

There are 6 top flight European Nations - 2 are guaranteed 6 places, the other 4 are guaranteed 1 - thats double standards !!

Some teams will just have to work harder to qualify for the Euro Cup that is true, but that is a good thing for the Rabo.  I'm sure the Rabo fans will enjoy watching a competitive league all season.

The Euro Cup should be for the teams that have earned the right to be there.

  

You should take up angling, Scrumpy.

[geoff998rugby]

I liked the quote from Sarries chief on radio 4 this morning on the difficulties of getting this together , something along the lins of:

" .. there were some big egos trapped inside  small minds..."

    

he didn't elaborate and I've no idea to whom he was referring   

He was looking in the mirror it is obvious

[beshocked]

Portnoy Complaint self serving seeking assassins? What's it like on that golden high horse of yours?

Great!

You can smell the bull-sh!t for miles and you can spot the turds from afar.

p.s. I don't have to meet a public person to make a judgement on his/her character.
All I have to do is read their pulic utterings.

That Nigel Farage seems an entirely affable bloke. But I don't like his politics.

From your golden high horse you can see all that? Must be fun and strange at the same time to have that view point.

Yes because of course public utterings tells you absolutely everything. Everything in the media is true!

What has Nigel Farage got to do with rugby? Is he a Leicester fan?

Scrumpy I agree with you. I think it's a nasty wake up call for Pro12 supporters - this whole qualification malarkey is an alien concept.

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

Why are people worried about the ring fenced 6 places for English and French clubs, when compared to the Rabo where by pretty much the whole league qualifed automatically year after year just for turning up.

Double standards!

There are 6 top flight European Nations - 2 are guaranteed 6 places, the other 4 are guaranteed 1 - thats double standards !!

There are 6 top flight European nations - 1 is denied 5 places, 1 is denied 7 places, the other 4 are denied none. Double standards?

[Scrumpy]

But saying its not fair that Italy or Scotland will only have one team is like saying The New Saints of Oswestry Town & Llansantffraid Football Club should be in the Champions league as they won the Welsh Premiership last season.

Life can be unfair and some English clubs will be disappointed to miss out on europe but it doesn't mean they should get it by default.


Btw they are not denied it, it just means they have to earn it.  

[munkian]

Or buy it, like Bath

[Scrumpy]

Bath aren't there yet, still fighting hard to earn the right, as it should be!

Nothing in life is free.  

[Guest]

Why are people worried about the ring fenced 6 places for English and French clubs, when compared to the Rabo where by pretty much the whole league qualifed automatically year after year just for turning up.

Double standards!

There are 6 top flight European Nations - 2 are guaranteed 6 places, the other 4 are guaranteed 1 - thats double standards !!

There are 6 top flight European nations - 1 is denied 5 places, 1 is denied 7 places, the other 4 are denied none. Double standards?

Not true. Only one of each of those four nations are quaranteed a place. AP is quaranteed 6 places. None of the 12 AP teams are denied a place.

[Sin é]

Whatever about the Italians with only one team in the Heineken Cup , the PRL have really screwed Welsh Rugby. They are the big losers in all of this.

[Scrumpy]

"None of the 12 AP teams are denied a place.."


But they have to earn it and there is another 11 teams trying to do the same thing.

Its a win win for the Euro Cup as they get top teams and not canon fodder, win win for the Aviva fans who get to watch teams week in week out trying to earn the right and ultimately a win win for the International team as the players are performing to a high level, pressure environment week in week out

[GunsGerms]

Why are people worried about the ring fenced 6 places for English and French clubs, when compared to the Rabo where by pretty much the whole league qualifed automatically year after year just for turning up.

Double standards!

There are 6 top flight European Nations - 2 are guaranteed 6 places, the other 4 are guaranteed 1 - thats double standards !!

There are 6 top flight European nations - 1 is denied 5 places, 1 is denied 7 places, the other 4 are denied none. Double standards?

Not true. Only one of each of those four nations are quaranteed a place. AP is quaranteed 6 places. None of the 12 AP teams are denied a place.

AP and Top14 are guarenteed 6 plus 1 if they win a playoff which will feature the 7th placed French team vs the 7th place English team.

[beshocked]

Sin e as you give a damn about the Italians. If you did you and the Pro12 countries wouldn't keep fleecing the Italians to take part in the Pro12.

As far I am concerned the Welsh have screwed themselves by not giving their clubs enough support and doing a poor job retaining players. The Welsh have done poorly in the HC - perhaps this might be a kick up the backside they need.

[GunsGerms]

"None of the 12 AP teams are denied a place.."
 

But they have to earn it and there is another 11 teams trying to do the same thing.

Its a win win for the Euro Cup as they get top teams and not canon fodder, win win for the Aviva fans who get to watch teams week in week out trying to earn the right and ultimately a win win for the International team as the players are performing to a high level, pressure environment week in week out

The only parties that win are those with already the most money, the English and French. No one else wins at all. Driven by greed.

[munkian]

So everyone else can do one as long as the Aviva fans are happy ?

[beshocked]

"None of the 12 AP teams are denied a place.."
 

But they have to earn it and there is another 11 teams trying to do the same thing.

Its a win win for the Euro Cup as they get top teams and not canon fodder, win win for the Aviva fans who get to watch teams week in week out trying to earn the right and ultimately a win win for the International team as the players are performing to a high level, pressure environment week in week out

Except when teams rest players. I must say that our teams (AP teams) have been guilty of resting players at certain times.

At least 3 times this season I have felt that the opposition to my team put up the white flag before the match due to resting players/ not playing full strength teams. It's meant we have picked up 3 comfortable 5 pointers. To me that's disappointing. In those three cases I wanted to see the opposition giving it their all with a full strength team to win.

[Sin é]

Sin e as you give a damn about the Italians. If you did you and the Pro12 countries wouldn't keep fleecing the Italians to take part in the Pro12.

As far I am concerned the Welsh have screwed themselves by not giving their clubs enough support and doing a poor job retaining players. The Welsh have done poorly in the HC - perhaps this might be a kick up the backside they need.

Eh, the Italians are now an equal partner in the Pro12.

I think you will find that it was the Welsh & Scots who felt they couldn't afford to increase the size of their squads or cover the extra travelling costs involved without them paying that fee.

The problem now with European competition is that the Scots & the Italians need to be equal partners in the share out of the Heineken Cup money (i.e., splitting the money x 4 rather than by 12).

I believe the Welsh Regions are the ones who want it by 12 (as they will get 4/12). The rest are happy to go by 4.
You can hardly blame the Welsh Regions not wanting that, particularly since 3 of their 4 teams won't be playing in the Top Tear next year, so are highly unlikely to make any gate money.

[Scrumpy]

So everyone else can do one as long as the Aviva fans are happy  ?

You get to watch a better league as the standards will improve all the way down the league and not just at the top.

So who knows maybe next year you'll be happy?

[rodders]

So England and France are guarenteed 6 teams with a potential 7th in a play off. While Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy are each guarenteed 1 team.

Thats really fair. Well dont PRL, bunch of____________

Well on current form I'd say Ireland are guaranteed 3 teams in fairness ...  

[Scrumpy]

"None of the 12 AP teams are denied a place.."
 

But they have to earn it and there is another 11 teams trying to do the same thing.

Its a win win for the Euro Cup as they get top teams and not canon fodder, win win for the Aviva fans who get to watch teams week in week out trying to earn the right and ultimately a win win for the International team as the players are performing to a high level, pressure environment week in week out

The only parties that win are those with already the most money, the English and French. No one else wins at all. Driven by greed.

So Leinster Munster and Ulster are poor are they?   

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