The New European Cup Thread (Merged)

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Can anyone provide an update on what is going to actually happen from next season?

A factual update would be welcome. As brief as possible.

Opinionated views not so.

[beshocked]

Really I thought you were still charging the Italian teams. Albeit less. Still doesn't take away the point that you have taken a nice amount of money from the Italians.

I am sure if you disagreed with the Welsh & Scots, you could have voiced your concern a bit more vocally.

Bit confused what you mean by x 4 and by 12.

[Sin é]

"None of the 12 AP teams are denied a place.."
 

But they have to earn it and there is another 11 teams trying to do the same thing.

Its a win win for the Euro Cup as they get top teams and not canon fodder, win win for the Aviva fans who get to watch teams week in week out trying to earn the right and ultimately a win win for the International team as the players are performing to a high level, pressure environment week in week out

Except when teams rest players. I must say that our teams (AP teams) have been guilty of resting players at certain times.

At least 3 times this season I have felt that the opposition to my team put up the white flag before the match due to resting players/ not playing full strength teams. It's meant we have picked up 3 comfortable 5 pointers. To me that's disappointing. In those three cases I wanted to see the opposition giving it their all with a full strength team to win.

Its interesting to note that Toulouse are resting some of their big players this weekend even though they are playing Toulon and the table is very tight in the Top 14).

Noves is resting Maestri, Fickou and Medard for their trip to Thomond Park the following week.
I don't think either Munster or Leinster are resting anyone this weekend. (Leinster are a fair few injuries though like Healy).

[Guest]

"None of the 12 AP teams are denied a place.."
 

But they have to earn it and there is another 11 teams trying to do the same thing.

Its a win win for the Euro Cup as they get top teams and not canon fodder, win win for the Aviva fans who get to watch teams week in week out trying to earn the right and ultimately a win win for the International team as the players are performing to a high level, pressure environment week in week out

Canon fodder? So then the Italian nation should be excluded from European competition because they are nothing more than canon fodder? Maybe they should drop the name European from the competition? Wait! Maybe they already have!

Seem to remember some of those you would describe as canon fodder beating some of the top seeded teams....

[gregortree]

Well said Rodders. It is a European club tourny and best clubs from the 3 European major leagues will qualify.

[Scrumpy]

"I don't think either Munster or Leinster are resting anyone this weekend. (Leinster are a fair few injuries though like Healy)."

 

They've rested their players in the 1st half of the season.

[Sin é]

Really I thought you were still charging the Italian teams. Albeit less. Still doesn't take away the point that you have taken a nice amount of money from the Italians.

I am sure if you disagreed with the Welsh & Scots, you could have voiced your concern a bit more vocally.

Bit confused what you mean by x 4 and by 12.

Any 'nice' amount of money was for covering expenses. It also meant that the Italians really had to commit to the Pro12 as in if they did it half-heartedly, it would really screw everyone up as they would have taken on extra playing staff to cover the extra games.

There was no income coming in from media or sponsorship and its not like any of the Celtic teams have loads of cash. The Italians now have a media deal which is something.

[geoff998rugby]

"I don't think either Munster or Leinster are resting anyone this weekend. (Leinster are a fair few injuries though like Healy)."

 

They've rested their players in the 1st half of the season.

As before any chance you can provide actual facts Irish teams rested players more than English teams

Basically put up or shut up   

[GunsGerms]

So Leinster Munster and Ulster are poor are they?   

There isnt anywhere near as much money in the Irish teams as the French and English teams. They are just better managed.

[geoff998rugby]

ignore

[beshocked]

Munchkin you think winning a match or two means that a side has earnt their spot in the HC?

Sin e Top 14 is a bit silly when it comes to home and away. I guess Toulouse are playing away?

it's an Irish tactic to have a derby day a week before the HC round to get in the right mindset. As scrumpy says the resting has been done before hand.

[slane]

So England and France are guarenteed 6 teams with a potential 7th in a play off. While Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy are each guarenteed 1 team.

Thats really fair. Well dont PRL, bunch of____________

Well on current form I'd say Ireland are guaranteed 3 teams in fairness ...  

Thats true but what gets me about this is that England and France feel the need to have more teams in the competition because they don't win enough!

Thats what it looks like, now this would have been fine if the smaller countries (Scotland, Italy, Wales) were allowed to keep their current contingent but they're not and they are losing out to facilitate the 2 countries that already have the largest contingent in the competition.  

So heres a question if Wales (who currently have a superb international team) only have one team in this new competition, where are they going to find their future internationals? the Rabo? It's a joke!

[GunsGerms]

So England and France are guarenteed 6 teams with a potential 7th in a play off. While Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy are each guarenteed 1 team.

Thats really fair. Well dont PRL, bunch of____________

Well on current form I'd say Ireland are guaranteed 3 teams in fairness ...  

Why not 4? The English are guarentted 6.

[beshocked]

So Leinster Munster and Ulster are poor are they?   

There isnt anywhere near as much money in the Irish teams as the French and English teams. They are just better managed.

You don't think playing in over 15 consecutive HCs helped? Perhaps with gaining much needed experience for players, revenue,recruitment etc?

You don't think it's been a huge advantage having that security of being in the HC every season with basically no side to challenge your place?

[HammerofThunor]

Mainly focused on divvying up the English games? I had read that they were focused on divvying up all games, but then maybe you're right. The Irish are hardly an attraction are they? The real money spinner would be to just show English v English games.

This broadcasting pick deal sounds a nightmare. Would it really mean fans have to subscribe to both Sky and BT to watch all Euro games? If that's true it will already be a lesser tournament.

The Guardian [boo hiss] or Telegraph [boo hiss] said that BT would have the first pick of three games involving English teams. Then Sky would have first pick of three games without English teams. Then the rest would be divvied up using an algorithm [fancy] based on the English involvement. Then Sky would have first pick of three English games at the second tier and BT would have first pick of three non-English games, and the rest divvied up. Clearly this may be anglo-centric as it is the Guardian/Telegraph.

[Scrumpy]

The end of season run in is when the big Guns come out to play.

All rested and wanting to earn their money no doubt.

[slane]

So England and France are guarenteed 6 teams with a potential 7th in a play off. While Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy are each guarenteed 1 team.

Thats really fair. Well dont PRL, bunch of____________

Well on current form I'd say Ireland are guaranteed 3 teams in fairness ...  

Why not 4? The English are guarentted 6.

Ah but the English need 6 to guarantee any sort of success   

[gregortree]

How many times have we ploughed this ground ? This is the worst possible way of selecting 20 European club teams ... apart from the alternatives.

[HammerofThunor]

And why is that the case? The same reason the Unions didn't stick to their guns and leave out the English. Because the English are revenue generators (if the reports are true and Sky and BT are mainly focused on divvying up the English games). Because they know they will get more sponsorship, more TV money if the English are involved. A bigger English involvement will mean more money for them. Please don't pretend it's anything else.

Not pretending anything.
What you do confirm though is what we all know it is all about the big boys throwing their weight around - it isn't because of the respective abilities of the teams involved.

Who say it's throwing weight around? If Sky said to the ERC, "We'll increase our offer by XX if the minimum English participation to 6" and they rubbed their hands together with glee, that's not the English throwing their weight around. Why didn't the 'ERC' stick with their 5 union competition if the new deal is so bad? Surely it's because they think the new deal is better. They said they were going to get the same money so why not stick to it? Why agree to a competition where the evil English have relatively more spots? Staying involved with these greedy bastards who want to destroy all rugby outside of England? What could the becons of hope and virtue be thinking?

[Guest]

Munchkin you think winning a match or two means that a side has earnt their spot in the HC?

Sin e Top 14 is a bit silly when it comes to home and away. I guess Toulouse are playing away?

it's an Irish tactic to have a derby day a week before the HC round to get in the right mindset. As scrumpy says the resting has been done before hand.

Of course they have the right. It's supposedly a European competition involving teams from 6 different European nations, and each are there on the merits of representing the best of their respective nations. Are you going to try and argue that some of these lower ranked teams haven't really tested, with some beating, the top teams? A team like the Blues beating a top French side is demonstration enough that they have the right to be there.

Just goes to show that with these lower ranked teams you can't drop your guard. They can put you out of the competition....

All added to the excitement, didn't it?

[GunsGerms]

How many times have we ploughed this ground ? This is the worst possible way of selecting 20 European club teams ... apart from the alternatives.

What was wrong with the way it was? It was perfectly fair before.

[HammerofThunor]

I think it must signed off now. There's smug article from Rees crowing over the wonderous Ian Richie saving the day (on top of Saracens CEO).

If I was signing something on the other side I'd deliberately put it off out of annoyance and stubborness (which is why it's a bloody good job I'm not in charge of anything).

[HammerofThunor]

Of course they have the right. It's supposedly a European competition involving teams from 6 different European nations, and each are there on the merits of representing the best of their respective nations. Are you going to try and argue that some of these lower ranked teams haven't really tested, with some beating, the top teams? A team like the Blues beating a top French side is demonstration enough that they have the right to be there.

Just goes to show that with these lower ranked teams you can't drop your guard. They can put you out of the competition....

All added to the excitement, didn't it?

It was. It seems it's competition between three leagues now (it seems).

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

I think it must signed off now.  There's smug article from Rees crowing over the wonderous Ian Richie saving the day (on top of Saracens CEO).

If I was signing something on the other side I'd deliberately put it off out of annoyance and stubborness (which is why it's a bloody good job I'm not in charge of anything).

Likewise

[kiakahaaotearoa]

The ever increasing Super juggernaut is a giant balls up but at least we can all agree it's a big pile of turd.

I've heard rumours of threads discussing this tournament but every time I've asked someone directly about it, they've mysteriously disappeared. It concerns me that this has spilled onto the international section. A few WUMs might come back from the sin bin to find nobody on the rugby boards.  

[Guest]

Mainly focused on divvying up the English games? I had read that they were focused on divvying up all games, but then maybe you're right. The Irish are hardly an attraction are they? The real money spinner would be to just show English v English games.

This broadcasting pick deal sounds a nightmare. Would it really mean fans have to subscribe to both Sky and BT to watch all Euro games? If that's true it will already be a lesser tournament.

The Guardian [boo hiss] or Telegraph [boo hiss] said that BT would have the first pick of three games involving English teams. Then Sky would have first pick of three games without English teams.  Then the rest would be divvied up using an algorithm [fancy] based on the English involvement.  Then Sky would have first pick of three English games at the second tier and BT would have first pick of three non-English games, and the rest divvied up.  Clearly this may be anglo-centric as it is the Guardian/Telegraph.

Same articles I have read, Hammer:

"The Telegraph has learnt that the ‘pick deal’ agreed as part of the compromise between the two broadcasters will hand BT Sport first choice on three matches involving clubs in the Aviva Premiership for each of the six rounds of pool matches in the new elite tournament.

Sky Sports, the long-standing broadcaster of the Heineken Cup, will then have first pick for three matches of games not involving English sides, most likely the games involving high-profile games between the French Top 14 and Irish provinces or Welsh regions."

Depends on how you want to read it I guess. Maybe switch it around a bit:

"The Telegraph has learnt that the ‘pick deal’ agreed as part of the compromise between the two broadcasters will hand Sky Sports, the long-standing broadcaster of the Heineken Cup, first pick for three matches of games not involving English sides, most likely the games involving high-profile games between the French Top 14 and Irish provinces or Welsh regions.


BT Sport will then have first choice on three matches involving clubs in the Aviva Premiership for each of the six rounds of pool matches in the new elite tournament"

I know, I know. Just a bit of fun   

[rodders]

So England and France are guarenteed 6 teams with a potential 7th in a play off. While Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy are each guarenteed 1 team.

Thats really fair. Well dont PRL, bunch of____________

Well on current form I'd say Ireland are guaranteed 3 teams in fairness ...  

Why not 4? The English are guarentted 6.

Ah but the English need 6 to guarantee any sort of success   

I'd say they'd need 20 for that....

Anyways enough on the format, what about the broadcaster - feic sake was looking forward to cancelling either Sky or BT ...what the flip does this mean I'm stuck with both now??

[Portnoy's Complaint]

One thing that's unclear to me, is now the Euro Cup is a club competition, it occurs that it woul be reasonable* that nothing should prevent the pool games from being contests between teams in their own league.

If the Uefa model is to be used, only infra-national games are scheduled apart.

Everyone should have a chance to be pitched against Treviso/Zebre.

* I baulked at saying 'fair'.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

That's true of nearly all medjia comments on this nonsense that I've read, Munchkin, can just as easily be reversed (see Edward Griffiths above)

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

One thing that's unclear to me, is now the Euro Cup is a club competition, it occurs that it woul be reasonable* that nothing should prevent the pool games from being contests between teams in their own league.

If the Uefa model is to be used, only infra-national games are scheduled apart.

Everyone should have a chance to be pitched against Treviso/Zebre.

* I baulked at saying 'fair'.

Am sure I read somewhere some medjia correspondent bluffing about a max of 3 English or French team in any one pool - can't remember where tho

[Geordie]

How many times have we ploughed this ground ? This is the worst possible way of selecting 20 European club teams ... apart from the alternatives.

What was wrong with the way it was? It was perfectly fair before.

No it wasnt Guns.

But this new way isnt either in my opinion.

[HammerofThunor]

Thats true but what gets me about this is that England and France feel the need to have more teams in the competition because they don't win enough!

There are some doozies on here (I know, I've done a lot of them) but this is a cracker. Was this the reason back in 1999? They had won 50% of the competitons they were in and represented in 100% of the finals (only two years). And how exactly is getting rid of an Italian team and a Scottish team going to help the English win?

Thats what it looks like, now this would have been fine if the smaller countries (Scotland, Italy, Wales) were allowed to keep their current contingent but they're not and they are losing out to facilitate the 2 countries that already have the largest contingent in the competition.

Actually they're not. 4 teams are being cut from the top tier to strengthen the second tier. As it happens the teams going down are those that tend to finish towards the bottom of their pools but get in each year.

So heres a question if Wales (who currently have a superb international team) only have one team in this new competition, where are they going to find their future internationals? the Rabo? It's a joke!

So you find the idea the Rabo will ever get to a reasonable level a joke? I expect it to strength year on year, which will also strengthen the 2nd tier. Joe Launchbury has never played a HEC game I don't think but he seems highly rated even outside of England. If you're relying on 6 games a season (those that miss out are unlikely to make the QF) to find your internationals you system is seriously flawed. The Welsh will still have the LV

[DeludedOptimistorjustDave]

Now BOD is retiring he don't need his family in the Erc to protect and fawn over him,
Personally I think the new concept is miles better and is completely fair,
If you don't qualify you only have yourselves to blame now, no hiding place for inept coaches.
This will only improve the rabo.

[HammerofThunor]

Same articles I have read, Hammer:

"The Telegraph has learnt that the ‘pick deal’ agreed as part of the compromise between the two broadcasters will hand BT Sport first choice on three matches involving clubs in the Aviva Premiership for each of the six rounds of pool matches in the new elite tournament.

Sky Sports, the long-standing broadcaster of the Heineken Cup, will then have first pick for three matches of games not involving English sides, most likely the games involving high-profile games between the French Top 14 and Irish provinces or Welsh regions."

Depends on how you want to read it I guess. Maybe switch it around a bit:

"The Telegraph has learnt that the ‘pick deal’ agreed as part of the compromise between the two broadcasters will hand Sky Sports, the long-standing broadcaster of the Heineken Cup, first pick for three matches of games not involving English sides, most likely the games involving high-profile games between the French Top 14 and Irish provinces or Welsh regions.


BT Sport will then have first choice on three matches involving clubs in the Aviva Premiership for each of the six rounds of pool matches in the new elite tournament"

I know, I know. Just a bit of fun   

That would be a very strange way of stipulating things. Why would Sky want to demand they can pick any game other than the English? Just do first pick. I mean they could miss out on Ulster just because they're playing an English side.

Let the dogs fight over the English games. We're used to now. Everyone wants a piece of us. Nothing but a big money cow with all these smaller unions suckling at our teets (Wray and Craig)

[Guest]

Of course they have the right. It's supposedly a European competition involving teams from 6 different European nations, and each are there on the merits of representing the best of their respective nations. Are you going to try and argue that some of these lower ranked teams haven't really tested, with some beating, the top teams? A team like the Blues beating a top French side is demonstration enough that they have the right to be there.

Just goes to show that with these lower ranked teams you can't drop your guard. They can put you out of the competition....

All added to the excitement, didn't it?

It was. It seems it's competition between three leagues now (it seems).

But then that is what PRL were claiming about this present competition anyway, isn't it? Not sure the argument will change from either side with regards to the new competition. The point being that the Rabo is a very different type of league to the AP, and T14.

[Scrumpy]

At the end of the day there will always be opposition to change, its just Human nature.

[GunsGerms]

Now BOD is retiring he don't need his family in the Erc to protect and fawn over him,
Personally I think the new concept is miles better and is completely fair,
If you don't qualify you only have yourselves to blame now, no hiding place for inept coaches.
This will only improve the rabo.

I think its clearly the AP that needs to improve. This result doesnt help the Rabo in any way.

[Guest]

Same articles I have read, Hammer:

"The Telegraph has learnt that the ‘pick deal’ agreed as part of the compromise between the two broadcasters will hand BT Sport first choice on three matches involving clubs in the Aviva Premiership for each of the six rounds of pool matches in the new elite tournament.

Sky Sports, the long-standing broadcaster of the Heineken Cup, will then have first pick for three matches of games not involving English sides, most likely the games involving high-profile games between the French Top 14 and Irish provinces or Welsh regions."

Depends on how you want to read it I guess. Maybe switch it around a bit:

"The Telegraph has learnt that the ‘pick deal’ agreed as part of the compromise between the two broadcasters will hand Sky Sports, the long-standing broadcaster of the Heineken Cup, first pick for three matches of games not involving English sides, most likely the games involving high-profile games between the French Top 14 and Irish provinces or Welsh regions.


BT Sport will then have first choice on three matches involving clubs in the Aviva Premiership for each of the six rounds of pool matches in the new elite tournament"

I know, I know. Just a bit of fun   

That would be a very strange way of stipulating things. Why would Sky want to demand they can pick any game other than the English? Just do first pick. I mean they could miss out on Ulster just because they're playing an English side.

Let the dogs fight over the English games. We're used to now. Everyone wants a piece of us. Nothing but a big money cow with all these smaller unions suckling at our teets (Wray and Craig)

I agree. Wray and Craig are teets.... or something like that   

Why would it be a strange way to stipulate things? My switching it around a little hasn't altered the facts of the article. Just how you read it. Perception.

[Geordie]

Now BOD is retiring he don't need his family in the Erc to protect and fawn over him,
Personally I think the new concept is miles better and is completely fair,
If you don't qualify you only have yourselves to blame now, no hiding place for inept coaches.
This will only improve the rabo.

I think its clearly the AP that needs to improve. This result doesnt help the Rabo in any way.

Why?

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

Why are people worried about the ring fenced 6 places for English and French clubs, when compared to the Rabo where by pretty much the whole league qualifed automatically year after year just for turning up.

Double standards!

There are 6 top flight European Nations - 2 are guaranteed 6 places, the other 4 are guaranteed 1 - thats double standards !!

There are 6 top flight European nations - 1 is denied 5 places, 1 is denied 7 places, the other 4 are denied none. Double standards?

Not true. Only one of each of those four nations are quaranteed a place. AP is quaranteed 6 places. None of the 12 AP teams are denied a place.

It is true, but the "denied places" argument is as much meaningless nonsense as the "guaranteed places" argument.

In any event, there are no guaranteed or denied places - all the top teams have places, it's just that they are filtered into competitions appropriate to their most recent proven ability.

[gregortree]

How many times have we ploughed this ground ? This is the worst possible way of selecting 20 European club teams ... apart from the alternatives.

What was wrong with the way it was? It was perfectly fair before.

Unfortunately a majority of European clubs / owners did not agree that it was.
True, the French clubs vacillated both ways (would they 'turn up?' or not, in the cliche) but something was bound to change.
Not saying the clubs were right mind, but they refused to continue as before. Never going to be a perfect answer to the qualification issue.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Why are people worried about the ring fenced 6 places for English and French clubs, when compared to the Rabo where by pretty much the whole league qualifed automatically year after year just for turning up.

Double standards!

There are 6 top flight European Nations - 2 are guaranteed 6 places, the other 4 are guaranteed 1 - thats double standards !!

There are 6 top flight European nations - 1 is denied 5 places, 1 is denied 7 places, the other 4 are denied none. Double standards?

Not true. Only one of each of those four nations are quaranteed a place. AP is quaranteed 6 places. None of the 12 AP teams are denied a place.

It is true, but the "denied places" argument is as much meaningless nonsense as the "guaranteed places" argument.

In any event, there are no guaranteed or denied places - all the top teams have places, it's just that they are filtered into competitions appropriate to their most recent proven ability.

... in 3 separate leagues, the comparable merits of which are anyone's guess

[slane]

Thats true but what gets me about this is that England and France feel the need to have more teams in the competition because they don't win enough!

There are some doozies on here (I know, I've done a lot of them) but this is a cracker.  Was this the reason back in 1999? They had won 50% of the competitons they were in and represented in 100% of the finals (only two years).

1999    5 years after rugby went professional! Then of course all the other team caught up. Do you think it would have been harder for English teams then or now? I'm sure you get the point.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Same articles I have read, Hammer:

"The Telegraph has learnt that the ‘pick deal’ agreed as part of the compromise between the two broadcasters will hand BT Sport first choice on three matches involving clubs in the Aviva Premiership for each of the six rounds of pool matches in the new elite tournament.

Sky Sports, the long-standing broadcaster of the Heineken Cup, will then have first pick for three matches of games not involving English sides, most likely the games involving high-profile games between the French Top 14 and Irish provinces or Welsh regions."

Depends on how you want to read it I guess. Maybe switch it around a bit:

"The Telegraph has learnt that the ‘pick deal’ agreed as part of the compromise between the two broadcasters will hand Sky Sports, the long-standing broadcaster of the Heineken Cup, first pick for three matches of games not involving English sides, most likely the games involving high-profile games between the French Top 14 and Irish provinces or Welsh regions.


BT Sport will then have first choice on three matches involving clubs in the Aviva Premiership for each of the six rounds of pool matches in the new elite tournament"

I know, I know. Just a bit of fun   

That would be a very strange way of stipulating things. Why would Sky want to demand they can pick any game other than the English? Just do first pick. I mean they could miss out on Ulster just because they're playing an English side.

Let the dogs fight over the English games. We're used to now. Everyone wants a piece of us. Nothing but a big money cow with all these smaller unions suckling at our teets (Wray and Craig)

Switch it around to this then:

"The Telegraph has learnt that the ‘pick deal’ agreed as part of the compromise between the two broadcasters will hand Sky Sports, the long-standing broadcaster of the Heineken Cup, first pick for three matches of games involving French or Irish sides, most likely the games involving high-profile games between the French Top 14 and Irish provinces or Welsh regions.


BT Sport will then have first choice on three matches involving clubs in the Aviva Premiership for each of the six rounds of pool matches in the new elite tournament"

[Guest]

Why are people worried about the ring fenced 6 places for English and French clubs, when compared to the Rabo where by pretty much the whole league qualifed automatically year after year just for turning up.

Double standards!

There are 6 top flight European Nations - 2 are guaranteed 6 places, the other 4 are guaranteed 1 - thats double standards !!

There are 6 top flight European nations - 1 is denied 5 places, 1 is denied 7 places, the other 4 are denied none. Double standards?

Not true. Only one of each of those four nations are quaranteed a place. AP is quaranteed 6 places. None of the 12 AP teams are denied a place.

It is true, but the "denied places" argument is as much meaningless nonsense as the "guaranteed places" argument.

In any event, there are no guaranteed or denied places - all the top teams have places, it's just that they are filtered into competitions appropriate to their most recent proven ability.

Not at all. Each union is quaranteed a number of teams to be entered in the European competition. 6 from AP, and 1 from each of the four Rabo unions.

None of the teams in any of the three leagues are denied places, although it can be argued that not all have equal opportunity.

[rodders]

Doesn't really matter how many teams are there as the same 5 or 6 teams will be in the mix anyways - Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Clermont, Sarries, Toulon ...maybe the tigers if they aren't too tired.

Everyone else is wasting my Saturday afternoon by turning up.

[gregortree]

Doesn't really matter how many teams are there as the same 5 or 6 teams will be in the mix anyways - Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Clermont, Sarries, Toulon ...maybe the tigers if they aren't too tired.Everyone else is wasting my Saturday afternoon by turning up.

  made I larrff !

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

Why are people worried about the ring fenced 6 places for English and French clubs, when compared to the Rabo where by pretty much the whole league qualifed automatically year after year just for turning up.

Double standards!

There are 6 top flight European Nations - 2 are guaranteed 6 places, the other 4 are guaranteed 1 - thats double standards !!

There are 6 top flight European nations - 1 is denied 5 places, 1 is denied 7 places, the other 4 are denied none. Double standards?

Not true. Only one of each of those four nations are quaranteed a place. AP is quaranteed 6 places. None of the 12 AP teams are denied a place.

It is true, but the "denied places" argument is as much meaningless nonsense as the "guaranteed places" argument.

In any event, there are no guaranteed or denied places - all the top teams have places, it's just that they are filtered into competitions appropriate to their most recent proven ability.

... in 3 separate leagues, the comparable merits of which are anyone's guess

Indeed, although currently I think we have a fair idea that there are no glaring discrepancies in ability between the leagues overall (overall being quite important). The playoffs should address that to a degree, but there's no guarantee that future glaring discrepancies will appear.

[slane]

How many times have we ploughed this ground ? This is the worst possible way of selecting 20 European club teams ... apart from the alternatives.

What was wrong with the way it was? It was perfectly fair before.

Unfortunately a majority of European clubs / owners did not agree that it was.
True, the French clubs vacillated both ways (would they 'turn up?' or not, in the cliche) but something was bound to change.
Not saying the clubs were right mind, but they refused to continue as before. Never going to be a perfect answer to the qualification issue.

Thank god, a sensible post.

I agree something had to change but it's the long term effects of this chance that worry me, as we all see in the 6 Nations Scotland and Italy are a long way behind the other nations, this IMO is nothing short of marginalising them completely. The Rabo's all well and good but it's H-Cup games that give players the experience they need to make the step up to international level, having 1 team each at this level is not good enough when England and France have 6-7 each, it's basically greed over development.

[geoff998rugby]

Why are people worried about the ring fenced 6 places for English and French clubs, when compared to the Rabo where by pretty much the whole league qualifed automatically year after year just for turning up.

Double standards!

There are 6 top flight European Nations - 2 are guaranteed 6 places, the other 4 are guaranteed 1 - thats double standards !!

There are 6 top flight European nations - 1 is denied 5 places, 1 is denied 7 places, the other 4 are denied none. Double standards?

I think we have a winner for the weirdest use of logic for 2014 and we are only in March   

[geoff998rugby]

Now BOD is retiring he don't need his family in the Erc to protect and fawn over him,
Personally I think the new concept is miles better and is completely fair,
If you don't qualify you only have yourselves to blame now, no hiding place for inept coaches.
This will only improve the rabo.

I think its clearly the AP that needs to improve. This result doesnt help the Rabo in any way.

Why?

To be fair only 1 winner in 8 years.

Also if you look at the last 5 years or so you will see 7 teams have dominated and only 1 - Leicester - are English.
The English record for a number of years now has been pretty poor

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