The New European Cup Thread (Merged)

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Can anyone provide an update on what is going to actually happen from next season?

A factual update would be welcome. As brief as possible.

Opinionated views not so.

[gregortree]

Slane... or the old club vs country issue.
The clubs do not see the 'HC' as anything to do with 'nations'.
They see it as a club pan European competition. The clubs themselves are real international melting pots anyway.
Another example, the 4 major Welsh clubs are becoming feeders where international class players go on to English or French clubs for the wages, but are 'kind of' available for national duties. 2 edged sword. They get top class club exposure, but then there may be release issues for natioanl duty.
I feel mostly for Scotland who have become marginalised a bit, more than a bit during the professional era.

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

Why are people worried about the ring fenced 6 places for English and French clubs, when compared to the Rabo where by pretty much the whole league qualifed automatically year after year just for turning up.

Double standards!

There are 6 top flight European Nations - 2 are guaranteed 6 places, the other 4 are guaranteed 1 - thats double standards !!

There are 6 top flight European nations - 1 is denied 5 places, 1 is denied 7 places, the other 4 are denied none. Double standards?

Not true. Only one of each of those four nations are quaranteed a place. AP is quaranteed 6 places. None of the 12 AP teams are denied a place.

It is true, but the "denied places" argument is as much meaningless nonsense as the "guaranteed places" argument.

In any event, there are no guaranteed or denied places - all the top teams have places, it's just that they are filtered into competitions appropriate to their most recent proven ability.

Not at all. Each union is quaranteed a number of teams to be entered in the European competition. 6 from AP, and 1 from each of the four Rabo unions.

None of the teams in any of the three leagues are denied places, although it can be argued that not all have equal opportunity.

Flip the logic - how many teams from each nation are guaranteed a place in Amlinv2? I make it 5, 7, 0, 0, 0, 0.

[Eustace H Plimsoll]

Thank god, a sensible post.

I agree something had to change but it's the long term effects of this chance that worry me, as we all see in the 6 Nations Scotland and Italy are a long way behind the other nations, this IMO is nothing short of marginalising them completely. The Rabo's all well and good but it's H-Cup games that give players the experience they need to make the step up to international level, having 1 team each at this level is not good enough when England and France have 6-7 each, it's basically greed over development.

But they only have two teams... 1 guaranteed spot seems fair enough to me. Then if the other team are good they can also qualify.

Also, after next year I think rabo teams will be involved in the playoffs for that extra seventh place.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Nowhere near abuse of logic.

I'm pretty sure that both arguments are logical.
Just that the use different (true) premises.

[Scrumpy]

Mah Nà Mah Nà

[wayne]

[quote="BigTrevsbigmac"]http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26760524

I wonder who he could be talking about?


He was more than likely talking about the same person, that Mark Davies (Scarlets CEO) and Nigel Short (RRW Chairman) were referring to who stormed out of 3 successive PRGB meetings, between the WRU, RRW and an Independent Chairman in the last month

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

Why are people worried about the ring fenced 6 places for English and French clubs, when compared to the Rabo where by pretty much the whole league qualifed automatically year after year just for turning up.

Double standards!

There are 6 top flight European Nations - 2 are guaranteed 6 places, the other 4 are guaranteed 1 - thats double standards !!

There are 6 top flight European nations - 1 is denied 5 places, 1 is denied 7 places, the other 4 are denied none. Double standards?

I think we have a winner for the weirdest use of logic for 2014 and we are only in March   

Thanks Geoff, but you should take some credit for starting it. <friendlysmileybanter icon> <who's nicked my icons>

[Geordie]

Now BOD is retiring he don't need his family in the Erc to protect and fawn over him,
Personally I think the new concept is miles better and is completely fair,
If you don't qualify you only have yourselves to blame now, no hiding place for inept coaches.
This will only improve the rabo.

I think its clearly the AP that needs to improve. This result doesnt help the Rabo in any way.

Why?

To be fair only 1 winner in 8 years.

Also if you look at the last 5 years or so you will see 7 teams have dominated and only 1 - Leicester - are English.
The English record for a number of years now has been pretty poor

Maybe so, but i think its a two fold arguement.

1) Yes maybe the English clubs havent been quite as strong...though i think they are improving by quite away now with more focus on academy players rather than forign journeymen.

2) Having most teams in the RABO automatically qualify for the HC means they can afford to manage their teams properly. They can rest players appropriately and be fit and firing for the big games.

The EPL in general forces teams to play a near enough full strength team for most (not all) of the games. Come the end of the season i do think this is an influential point.

Now that RABO teams have to qualify...it will be interesting to see if they have to play a stronger team more often and if there is a difference...

[rodders]

It seems more and more that Ireland are becoming the anomaly in the NH as the only country were the Union led approach has been successful.

If we aren't careful we could find ourselves as isolated within the European club game as Russia are within the G8.

[Cardiff Dave]

Mah Nà Mah Nà

Do doo be-do-do...

[Scrumpy]

So what happens to the HCup, I guess Toulouse we'll get the original (if there is one) seeing as they have won it the most.

[Guest]

Why are people worried about the ring fenced 6 places for English and French clubs, when compared to the Rabo where by pretty much the whole league qualifed automatically year after year just for turning up.

Double standards!

There are 6 top flight European Nations - 2 are guaranteed 6 places, the other 4 are guaranteed 1 - thats double standards !!

There are 6 top flight European nations - 1 is denied 5 places, 1 is denied 7 places, the other 4 are denied none. Double standards?

Not true. Only one of each of those four nations are quaranteed a place. AP is quaranteed 6 places. None of the 12 AP teams are denied a place.

It is true, but the "denied places" argument is as much meaningless nonsense as the "guaranteed places" argument.

In any event, there are no guaranteed or denied places - all the top teams have places, it's just that they are filtered into competitions appropriate to their most recent proven ability.

Not at all. Each union is quaranteed a number of teams to be entered in the European competition. 6 from AP, and 1 from each of the four Rabo unions.

None of the teams in any of the three leagues are denied places, although it can be argued that not all have equal opportunity.

Flip the logic - how many teams from each nation are guaranteed a place in Amlinv2? I make it 5, 7, 0, 0, 0, 0.

Nice try   

Try flipping it for the same competition   

[Notch]

Now that RABO teams have to qualify...it will be interesting to see if they have to play a stronger team more often and if there is a difference...

It won't make any difference whatsoever. English fans are completely mistaken about why Pro12 teams have to rest players. It's not to rest them for the Heineken Cup, and it's not because they don't care where they finish in the Rabo (there's quite a lot of financial incentive to finish higher up the table even outside playoff spots).

No, teams are asked to rest players or coerced into resting players to keep them fresh for international rugby. If it was up to the teams I suspect they wouldn't rest players at all but the decisions over test players are largely made by the Strength and Conditioning Staff of the national sides. The WRU certainly doesn't care where the regions finish in the Pro12 and the other unions care about their sides but the priority is test rugby. Edinburgh, this season, will not automatically qualify for next seasons Cup but still have a great chance to catch Scarlets in 6th and qualify on merit. Yet they've just been asked to rest their Captain Greig Laidlaw for the rest of the season by the SRU and are complying with that request. So basically the fact Edinburgh could get into the Top European Cup next year with a big push hasn't changed the SRUs viewpoint at all.

What you don't get is that most sides in the Pro12 have a high proportion of international players and you just can't play 30 club games plus 12/13 test matches. Even the bottom sides are packed with internationals- most of Italys Six Nations squad came from Treviso and Zebre. A team with more international players will always have to compromise with their Union at times, especially in countries where the players are contracted directly to the Union.

Sounds frustrating, and it can be but remember a) a nation with a small professional player base simply can't afford to have a number of guys suffering from burnout. The smaller the nation the more carefully you have to manage your players and b) when you only have 4 professional teams or 2 professional teams, you actually need to rotate to give younger players a chance. There could be a guy on the bench for Ulster now, no caps, he could be first choice for Ireland in a year. You need to be able to expose players on the fringes of provincial squads to a high-level of rugby.

[Notch]

Anyway, moving this to Club Rugby section

[thebandwagonsociety]

What will the current negotiations do in reality?
- Initial splits of money probably means that the 4 nations receive the same amount of money but any increase in TV revenues will benefit England and France to a greater degree.
- Reduced number of teams in the top competition is a stepping stone to free up space in order to allow the Top14 become a Top15.
- Long term viability of professional rugby in Scotland and Italy have been severely constrained.
- Welsh teams are in the Pro12 but have clearly shown that they will break away without any hesitation in the future with any carrot to join the Jeff/Championship.
- Ireland won't be affected greatly so long as the performance levels of the 3 provinces are maintained, there is incentive to Connacht to develop further if Wales stays in a shambles. Any fall off in performance by Leinster/Munster/Ulster could have severe ramifications to professional rugby in Ireland.
- PRL have increased the payroll warchest in proportion to Pro12 sides which should allow them to cherry pick international class players in their clubs.
- PRL have set and defended a precedent to negotiate their own TV rights for games involving other European teams and can contractually bind those teams to the PRL terms without any prior negotiations or agreement with the other European teams.
- WE WILL ALL HAVE TO PAY TWO SEPARATE SPORTS SUBSCRIPTIONS IN ORDER TO WATCH THE EUROPEAN COMPETITION NEXT YEAR. Joe Supporter has been screwed over royally in this!

[quinsforever]

am pleased this is almost settled.

and (as i predicted way back...ERC is dead ...sorry couldnt resist) glad to see ERC sacrificed in order to get a competition for next year.

looking forwards to precise details of:
- money...will it depend on qualifying?...could be big difference especially for the Rabo teams.
- money...will the performance-related portion change?
- seeding...whats the new methodology?
- calendar and format...any changes or innovations?
- playoff (20th) spot after this year?
- who do i have to pay to watch the matches i want to watch!?!


and good post there Notch re intl team enforced resting. i agree. resources are likely to get a bit more stretched with qualification on the line for HC going forward, but it doesnt look likely to affect the irish clubs as much in the near term given their quality and consistency.

[thebandwagonsociety]

Another point/question for the Sages of 606v2 - It has been obvious in this that the RFU didn't want to at any time stand up against the PRL in any negotiations. I assume that the primary reason for this is the RWC in 2015 and the fact that RFU need access to players, stadia, etc. in order for the RWC to run smoothly. What other rights are up for negotiation before the RWC which the PRL could take advantage of an ameniable RFU? Do EPL terms get renewed in the next 12 months? What pound of flesh will the PRL look for from the RFU now that the European situation is settled?

[nathan]

A few fans saying this screws over Italy and Scotland, what about the other countries in Europe?The current setup does nothing for them, i find complaints arguing its bad for those two countries daft. What happens if Georgia turn out to be better than Italy, why shouldn't they have the chance to work up to the big table.

[quinsforever]

not obvious to me, bandwagon.

conclusion i drew, from public and private comments, was that the RFU had a lot of sympathy with the changes that the PRL, top14 and FFR were trying to enforce by withdrawing from HC in 2012.

if you also look at the new elite player arrangements agreed FFR and the LNR, that shows that they want to copy the RFU's EPS because it is seen to be working. Both RFU and clubs are pretty happy with it.

The RFU and english clubs seem to get along pretty well. A successful RWC for England will have huge financial benefits to English clubs so neither RFU nor club are going to rock that boat.

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

Why are people worried about the ring fenced 6 places for English and French clubs, when compared to the Rabo where by pretty much the whole league qualifed automatically year after year just for turning up.

Double standards!

There are 6 top flight European Nations - 2 are guaranteed 6 places, the other 4 are guaranteed 1 - thats double standards !!

There are 6 top flight European nations - 1 is denied 5 places, 1 is denied 7 places, the other 4 are denied none. Double standards?

Not true. Only one of each of those four nations are quaranteed a place. AP is quaranteed 6 places. None of the 12 AP teams are denied a place.

It is true, but the "denied places" argument is as much meaningless nonsense as the "guaranteed places" argument.

In any event, there are no guaranteed or denied places - all the top teams have places, it's just that they are filtered into competitions appropriate to their most recent proven ability.

Not at all. Each union is quaranteed a number of teams to be entered in the European competition. 6 from AP, and 1 from each of the four Rabo unions.

None of the teams in any of the three leagues are denied places, although it can be argued that not all have equal opportunity.

Flip the logic - how many teams from each nation are guaranteed a place in Amlinv2? I make it 5, 7, 0, 0, 0, 0.

Nice try   

Try flipping it for the same competition   

You would need a team to be playing in both competitions for those Amlinv2 "guaranteed places" not to be also HCv2 "denied places". Hence England have 5 guaranteed places in Amlinv2 and also 5 places denied in HCv2.

That's the logic you get when teams are not considered individually but in national blocks. It's all a nonsense.

[thebandwagonsociety]

The table isn't even set correctly for 6 people. At the minute the big table as 4 places with fish fingers and chips off the kiddies menu placed at the half sized childrens table.

Suggesting the kids should be changed seems a little daft when everyone should be treated as adults and sit together at the big table.

[thebandwagonsociety]

not obvious to me, bandwagon.

conclusion i drew, from public and private comments, was that the RFU had a lot of sympathy with the changes that the PRL, top14 and FFR were trying to enforce by withdrawing from HC in 2012.

if you also look at the new elite player arrangements agreed FFR and the LNR, that shows that they want to copy the RFU's EPS because it is seen to be working. Both RFU and clubs are pretty happy with it.

The RFU and english clubs seem to get along pretty well. A successful RWC for England will have huge financial benefits to English clubs so neither RFU nor club are going to rock that boat.

Really? No one is going to rock that boat? The last two years we have heard that the clubs need to look after the clubs interests and they are in a period of strength in any negotiations with the RFU with the RWC on the horizon. I just think it is a bit naive not to consider the PRL seeking to improve the balance of terms of any agreements in place while they are in this position of strength.

[broadlandboy]

Its a club competition not a Union one

[quinsforever]

mixing up unions with teams there. but i like the analogy.   

its 3 tables of 6 and a bit each places, with equal sized portions. admirably fair.

[Sin é]

A few fans saying this screws over Italy and Scotland, what about the other countries in Europe?The current setup does nothing for them, i find complaints arguing its bad for those two countries  daft. What happens if Georgia turn out to be better than Italy, why shouldn't they have the chance to work up to the big table.

All the best Georgian players are playing in France. What will happen is that it will be easier for the French (& anyone else) to cherry pick their players as they will be seen in competition.

What is beneficial to Georgian rugby (& Romanian) is if 6Ns international sides play them occasionally.

[thebandwagonsociety]

not obvious to me, bandwagon.

conclusion i drew, from public and private comments, was that the RFU had a lot of sympathy with the changes that the PRL, top14 and FFR were trying to enforce by withdrawing from HC in 2012.

if you also look at the new elite player arrangements agreed FFR and the LNR, that shows that they want to copy the RFU's EPS because it is seen to be working. Both RFU and clubs are pretty happy with it.

The RFU and english clubs seem to get along pretty well. A successful RWC for England will have huge financial benefits to English clubs so neither RFU nor club are going to rock that boat.

Really? No one is going to rock that boat?  The last two years we have heard that the clubs need to look after the clubs interests and they are in a period of strength in any negotiations with the RFU with the RWC on the horizon.  I just think it is a bit naive not to consider the PRL seeking to improve the balance of terms of any agreements in place while they are in this position of strength.

Oh, I know I'm quoting myself here in this post, but just wanted to add quins that I do find you give very good insight and commentary on rugby matters here on 606v2 and the 'naive' description above isn't intended to be a slight on yourself or anyone on 606v2 in particular.  Just that from a commercial negotiation standpoint there is a period of strength for one party over the other, but it will only exist for a finite period of time.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Stop guys.

You are each arguing from true premises. But each of them is/are incomplete.

First rule of logic: Agree on the premise.
Second rule of logic: Goto rule 1 ifnot stop (i.e. avoid circular argument).

[Exiledinborders]

Now that RABO teams have to qualify...it will be interesting to see if they have to play a stronger team more often and if there is a difference...

It won't make any difference whatsoever. English fans are completely mistaken about why Pro12 teams have to rest players. It's not to rest them for the Heineken Cup, and it's not because they don't care where they finish in the Rabo (there's quite a lot of financial incentive to finish higher up the table even outside playoff spots).

No, teams are asked to rest players or coerced into resting players to keep them fresh for international rugby. If it was up to the teams I suspect they wouldn't rest players at all but the decisions over test players are largely made by the Strength and Conditioning Staff of the national sides. The WRU certainly doesn't care where the regions finish in the Pro12 and the other unions care about their sides but the priority is test rugby. Edinburgh, this season, will not automatically qualify for next seasons Cup but still have a great chance to catch Scarlets in 6th and qualify on merit. Yet they've just been asked to rest their Captain Greig Laidlaw for the rest of the season by the SRU and are complying with that request. So basically the fact Edinburgh could get into the Top European Cup next year with a big push hasn't changed the SRUs viewpoint at all.

What you don't get is that most sides in the Pro12 have a high proportion of international players and you just can't play 30 club games plus 12/13 test matches. Even the bottom sides are packed with internationals- most of Italys Six Nations squad came from Treviso and Zebre. A team with more international players will always have to compromise with their Union at times, especially in countries where the players are contracted directly to the Union.

Sounds frustrating, and it can be but remember a) a nation with a small professional player base simply can't afford to have a number of guys suffering from burnout. The smaller the nation the more carefully you have to manage your players and b) when you only have 4 professional teams or 2 professional teams, you actually need to rotate to give younger players a chance. There could be a guy on the bench for Ulster now, no caps, he could be first choice for Ireland in a year. You need to be able to expose players on the fringes of provincial squads to a high-level of rugby.

If Edinburgh rest Laidlaw for the rest of the season and fail to qualify, how does that help Scottish rugby? One player is rested but no Edinburgh players play in the top level European cup competition. Is the best development for test players to play in a league where the top players are absent for large periods and the second level European cup? It does not look like the best preparation to me. Yes some rotation is necessary but playing in competitive rugby is essential.

[quinsforever]

 

nae worries. i totally understand. commercial negotiations are ultimately always about one's position of negotiating strength. but the RFU and the clubs are, for better or worse, in it together forever. And both appear to recognise that it is a symbiotic relationship, not a purely adversarial or parasitic one.

success at international level...
leads to wider participation in and support of the game at all levels...
leads to stronger academies...stronger clubs...success in club competitions...and more money...and more success at international level...

at least that's the hope!

there may be some tough negotiating when the RFU/PRL agreement comes up again in 2016, but i am 100% confident that no-one on either side is going to want to take the risk of screwing the golden goose (RWC2015).   

[Sin é]

Its a club competition not a Union one

According to The Breakdown email, the Six Nations Co. is running the tournament (i.e., the Unions). They also say that: ''FFR pledging not to hijack the vote of the Top 14 on matters it considers to be of national interest''. This suggests to me that the Unions are running this competition.

There will be a commericial committee (based in Switzerland) which will have 1 rep each from the 3 leagues. Craig from PRL, and someone from IRFU for Pro12 (no mention of who the LNR rep will be), with an independent Chair from the business world.

Not too sure how well the Welsh regions have come out of this, but I suppose they will be just happy they will get the cash.

[thebandwagonsociety]

mixing up unions with teams there. but i like the analogy.   

its 3 tables of 6 and a bit each places, with equal sized portions. admirably fair.

True and now two of those tables determine the portion sizes. Everything will be fair.

[thebandwagonsociety]

Its a club competition not a Union one

According to The Breakdown email, the Six Nations Co. is running the tournament (i.e., the Unions). They also say that: ''FFR pledging not to hijack the vote of the Top 14 on matters it considers to be of national interest''. This suggests to me that the Unions are running this competition.

There will be a commericial committee (based in Switzerland) which will have 1 rep each from the 3 leagues. Craig from PRL, and someone from IRFU for Pro12 (no mention of who the LNR rep will be), with an independent Chair from the business world.

Not too sure how well the Welsh regions have come out of this, but I suppose they will be just happy they will get the cash.

Welsh regions are arguing that the revenues should be split evenly between the 12 Pro12 teams. So they would get a 3rd of the cash. While Italy are arguing that there are 4 Unions and it should be split into quarters. What is interesting is that both those nations combined will have half the teams in the Pro12 but possibly only 2 teams in the top competition.

[Notch]

If Edinburgh rest Laidlaw for the rest of the season and fail to qualify, how does that help Scottish rugby? One player is rested but no Edinburgh players play in the top level European cup competition. Is the best development for test players to play in a league where the top players are absent for large periods and the second level European cup?  It does not look like the best preparation to me.  Yes some rotation is necessary but playing in competitive rugby is essential.

To be honest I think it's quite short-sighted. The IRFU always manages to manage players game time so that they are fit and available in the final run-in.

[Notch]

What happens if Georgia turn out to be better than Italy, why shouldn't they have the chance to work up to the big table.

I wish there was a way to expand the Pro12 to include teams from other nations, but I'm struggling to see how it could be done.

A question- would you accept that the Pro12 should get extra places if it does expand in future?

[stevetynant]

And anyway the argument about Celtic clubs resting their players hold no water at all. Why do the English and French constantly expect us to change the systems that work so well for us why not change their own leagues to rest their players. They have the advantage of cash and population but still expect the rabbo countries to bend to their ways rather than see the merit in adopting a similar approach.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Alternatively, expand the AP to 14 teams and give two places to Georgian teams?

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

[quote="thebandwagonsociety"]Another point/question for the Sages of 606v2 - It has been obvious in this that the RFU didn't want to at any time stand up against the PRL in any negotiations.  I assume that the primary reason for this is the RWC in 2015 and the fact that RFU need access to players, stadia, etc. in order for the RWC to run smoothly.  What other rights are up for negotiation before the RWC which the PRL could take advantage of an ameniable RFU? Do EPL terms get renewed in the next 12 months? What pound of flesh will the PRL look for from the RFU now that the European situation is settled?[/quote

IRB require that there be no professional rugby played in the host country for the duration of RWC, so there'll be some hard-nosed negotiation between PRL and RFU for compensation due to a delayed start to the domestic season in 2015. I expect that those negotiations have started and may well have coloured their stances during the Euromess.

EPS agreement is due for renewal after RWC, in 2016.

Other than that, there does seem to be an outbreak of harmony between PRL and RFU, and RFU are required by statute to protect the interests of all English rugby, not Irish or Welsh or French or any other. Therein probably lies the support for PRL from RFU.

[quinsforever]

What happens if Georgia turn out to be better than Italy, why shouldn't they have the chance to work up to the big table.

I wish there was a way to expand the Pro12 to include teams from other nations, but I'm struggling to see how it could be done.

A question- would you accept that the Pro12 should get extra places if it does expand in future?

one extra place for each new nation that enters teams seems acceptable. but i struggle to see how the travel, expenses and commercial realities will work for the Rabo of extending even further afield. would need to see the numbers. have no idea the level of club support in georgia or romania for example.

[HammerofThunor]

Switch it around to this then:

"The Telegraph has learnt that the ‘pick deal’ agreed as part of the compromise between the two broadcasters will hand Sky Sports, the long-standing broadcaster of the Heineken Cup, first pick for three matches of games involving French or Irish sides, most likely the games involving high-profile games between the French Top 14 and Irish provinces or Welsh regions.


BT Sport will then have first choice on three matches involving clubs in the Aviva Premiership for each of the six rounds of pool matches in the new elite tournament"

But that's not switching it around, it's changing it. It's not "involving French or Irish sides". It's "French or Irish teams not playing English teams". Of course it could all be made up by the Telegraph so meaningless at the moment.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Indeed

[Notch]

What happens if Georgia turn out to be better than Italy, why shouldn't they have the chance to work up to the big table.

I wish there was a way to expand the Pro12 to include teams from other nations, but I'm struggling to see how it could be done.

A question- would you accept that the Pro12 should get extra places if it does expand in future?

one extra place for each new nation that enters teams seems acceptable. but i struggle to see how the travel, expenses and commercial realities will work for the Rabo of extending even further afield. would need to see the numbers. have no idea the level of club support in georgia or romania for example.

At this stage I think it's a pipe dream tbh. I'm just thinking ahead- the problem with doing it by league is that the Pro12 has about the same security as a European tournament. Nations could join, nations could leave.

I think the best thing to do is actually the current plan, to create a third tier tournament with the Italian club sides and teams from around Europe and see what crowds that is able to attract.

[Guest]

"You would need a team to be playing in both competitions for those Amlinv2 "guaranteed places" not to be also HCv2 "denied places". Hence England have 5 guaranteed places in Amlinv2 and also 5 places denied in HCv2.

That's the logic you get when teams are not considered individually but in national blocks. It's all a nonsense."

Who is arguing for the inclusion of all AP teams? We're talking about the number of places given to AP, and others, by this new competition. For AP that is 6 places, therefore this new competition quarantees 6 places for those who finish top 6 in AP.
There is no denial of those 6 places to any within AP as all have an opportunity to finish top 6.

I'm arguing from the standpoint of places this new competition is realistically likely to, or able to, provide for each union, and league, and that each team in each of those leagues have an opportunity to take one of those places. No denial.

[Guest]

Stop guys.

You are each arguing from true premises. But each of them is/are incomplete.

First rule of logic: Agree on the premise.
Second rule of logic: Goto rule 1 ifnot stop (i.e. avoid circular argument).

Don't be bringing logic to these boards or I will report you   

[Portnoy's Complaint]

  Fascist.

[Guest]

Fascist.

  

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Anyway, moving this to Club Rugby section

Bugger. That's two pointless, endless, circular arguments going on in the same room about the same thing.

Why not merge them, Notch?

[broadlandboy]

Sin é Doesn't matter who runs it. It is a competition for clubs
Steve because the Pro12 unions changed their set up to suit HEC after the HEC agreement.

[broadlandboy]

Only 1 PRL team has been in the HEC every year that the English entered.How many of the PRO12 have been in the HEC every year they were eligable? Taking a guess at 8

[Notch]

Anyway, moving this to Club Rugby section

Bugger. That's two pointless, endless, circular arguments going on in the same room about the same thing.

Why not merge them, Notch?

SUPERTHREAD!

European Competition; Quick Updates plus All Hail The New European Tourny...

[Notch]

Sin é Doesn't matter who runs it. It is a competition for clubs
Steve because the Pro12 unions changed their set up to suit HEC after the HEC agreement.

You seem to be immune to facts. This is interesting to say the least. I could swear that the irish are always guaranteed at least one place, and if you're right about this being a tournament which is exclusively for clubs the winners of the AIL this year will be getting very excited!! Will it be Old Belvedere? Clontarf? Cork Constitution?

Or will we continue to not enter clubs, on account of the fact there are no fully professional rugby clubs in Ireland? We'll see.

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