The New European Cup Thread (Merged)

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Can anyone provide an update on what is going to actually happen from next season?

A factual update would be welcome. As brief as possible.

Opinionated views not so.

[quinsforever]

10 isn't the general in France, its the 9

it's historical. they have a history of short autocratic figures wielding more power than they should.

but at racing, sexton pulls the strings. their first choice 9 tends to be philips, as long as he hasnt had a big night the evening before. and he's another advanced infantryman.   

[quinsforever]

With all this talk of Sexton needing the break from his Leinster mates to Grow in Europe in a Real League, perhaps that's the next stage for the further development of Owen Farrell?  After all, he has more to learn and he might learn it quicker playing in a league with the likes of three time HEC champion Sexton in it?

Oh Fly!!!  Don't be such a fool!  You rose-tinted Leinster eejit!  We're talking about the standards of rugby in Pro12 not the AP.  Irish club players simply need to get out more to improve... in England that's not so urgent.

only prob is Lancaster's current policy of not selecting overseas players....

but yes i think playing in other leagues improves players generally. Gatland clearly feels the same. Was positively encouraging players to go play in France rather than the Rabo...

[LeinsterFan4life]

And look where welsh rugby is now. Regions in crisis, the depth in their squad has neven been worse and where totally outclassed by both Ireland and England.

[SecretFly]

With all this talk of Sexton needing the break from his Leinster mates to Grow in Europe in a Real League, perhaps that's the next stage for the further development of Owen Farrell?  After all, he has more to learn and he might learn it quicker playing in a league with the likes of three time HEC champion Sexton in it?

Oh Fly!!!  Don't be such a fool!  You rose-tinted Leinster eejit!  We're talking about the standards of rugby in Pro12 not the AP.  Irish club players simply need to get out more to improve... in England that's not so urgent.

only prob is Lancaster's current policy of not selecting overseas players....

but yes i think playing in other leagues improves players generally. Gatland clearly feels the same. Was positively encouraging players to go play in France rather than the Rabo...

It's ironic then that it was when Welsh players were at home that they were winning and now that they're beginning to spread out that they've had their troubles with performance and consistency? No.

Plus. Lancaster is right. Prioritising home based players as much as possible protects rugby in the nation that does the prioritising. Ireland does it too. You think the IRFU don't have the non-overseas prioritisation? They do, and they have it for the same reasons Lancaster has it.

[Guest]

Didn't someone produce some research recently which suggests that moving club is statistically more likely to be detrimental to player development? If I can retrieve that nugget from somewhere deep inside the dark, and dusty, recesses of my mind I will post it.

[HammerofThunor]

Don't say I never do 'ought for you, Munch

https://www.606v2.com/t52805-read-this-before-signing-part-1-the-players-article-from-the-roar

[Guest]

Don't say I never do 'ought for you, Munch

https://www.606v2.com/t52805-read-this-before-signing-part-1-the-players-article-from-the-roar

You're a star, Hammer. Muchas gracias   

I had read it in the Roar. My memory needs a little help now and then.

[Notch]

I think the opposite is very plainly true, unless you happen to be in a particularly limiting environment. It takes time to settle into a new environment, even if you progress long term you will regress in the short term and that's time you're not progressing towards your peak performance.

I think it's pretty telling that O'Brien, Heaslip etc. turned down big-money offers from France the year after Sexton left- especially against a backdrop of Sexton struggling to settle into a team whose coaching standards would be a fair bit behind what he's used to in Ireland.

[HammerofThunor]

It depends on where you are, your relationship with your current coach and team, the new team, the new coach, your personality, many many things.

Some players get better (Haskell improved but stayed a knob, taking the urine out of the Leicester players at the world cup 2011 for staying in and focusing on work in one of video blog things). Billy Vunipola settled quickly at Saracens but it's difficult to say how he would have done staying at Wasps. Flood excellent at Leicester pretty much straight away. Flutey bombed in France. Fotuali'i has been a bit meh at Saints, over shadowed by Dickson, who himself did well on his move.

Leinster, and the Irish provinces in general, are really well run in general and going to most places would be a drop in standards in the structure. But back in the day Jennings and Mullen did well in their move to Leicester and got right back to it when they returned.

[SecretFly]

I think the opposite is very plainly true, unless you happen to be in a particularly limiting environment. It takes time to settle into a new environment, even if you progress long term you will regress in the short term and that's time you're not progressing towards your peak performance.

I think it's pretty telling that O'Brien, Heaslip etc. turned down big-money offers from France the year after Sexton left- especially against a backdrop of Sexton struggling to settle into a team whose coaching standards would be a fair bit behind what he's used to in Ireland.

There is also the not insignificant factor that O'Brien and Heaslip were left with enough of an impression that their positions wouldn't be as secure as Sexton's if they chose to go.  Sexton is in, as Quins rightly pointed out, a central general-style position.  You need a pretty good one there and whilst we have options coming up I think we all agree that omitting him would be shooting ourselves in the foot.

But as has been seen in the 6N, others that are missing can be dealt without if the team system itself is the strong point.  These players want it all - and rightly so.  They want the biggest salary they can get, and they want glory in whatever club they go to or stay in, and then they also want to dream of International.

It would be wrong of us to downplay the continuing lure of International in the choices O'Brien and Heaslip finally made.  Few players' spaces are 'safe' enough to waddle away to France on without a care in the world.

[Notch]

I think the language barrier is a big thing. It's difficult to fit straight into the new game plan when you can't communicate properly with coaches and teammates.

[SecretFly]

I think the language barrier is a big thing. It's difficult to fit straight into the new game plan when you can't communicate properly with coaches and teammates.

You're right. The French are having a dreadful time understanding Sexton and O'Gara.

[Notch]

I think the language barrier is a big thing. It's difficult to fit straight into the new game plan when you can't communicate properly with coaches and teammates.

You're right.  The French are having a dreadful time understanding Sexton and O'Gara.  

Sextons alright, but ROGs accent just goes through me like nails down a blackboard...

[quinsforever]

i dont buy the ben darwin piece. he was writing about SH players and teams across 5 different sports.

the examples that come to mind for me of moves working out extremely well are very plentiful, even across borders with a language barrier (into france). Even if there is a "settling in" period, which Sexton quite clearly went through.

wilko, steffon armitage (on erc POTY shortlist), giteau, haskell, sexton, jamie roberts, etc, etc.

i think most people would agree its more risky for a youngster to move setups (billy v aside). But once players are very established, there seems to be much less risk involved in such a move, although it always takes some time and matches to establish the intuitive combinations that click together to win matches in key positions.

re peak performance, this is extremely hard to objectively measure. these days all players will likely be in peak physical condition irrespective of where they play or move to. But peak performance is really just saying they are not performing the same way at the club they just left. And much of that may be nothing to do with the club they have joined. Sexton is a great example here - all the irish, and he himself were worried about his first 4 months at Racing, but in reality, having overcome the challenges, once he linked up again with his leinster buddies during the 6N, he looked the best i have ever seen him.

[SecretFly]

once he linked up again with his leinster buddies during the 6N, he looked the best i have ever seen him.

...........as did just about every one of his buddies (Leinster plus others)! We know, we know, quins. We noticed too, believe me. We know how different we looked from the last few years

[Guest]

From the Independent:

"Saracens are calling for relegation from the Aviva Premiership to be abolished and the salary cap radically altered to include a minimum spend on players and the scrapping of the upper limit, in order to attract the world’s best players to the competition instead of going to France and Ireland."

And there are those who just can't understand why we don't trust the PRL...

[stub]

Munchkin - come on now - you know the Sarries don't speak for the whole PRL!   

[Metal Tiger]

Munchkin - come on now - you know the Sarries don't speak for the whole PRL!   

I think most fans want relegation to remain and the upper cap to be raised but rigidly enforced... and no foreign unions supporting player wages so clubs can avoid the cap.

[nathan]

From the Independent:

"Saracens are calling for relegation from the Aviva Premiership to be abolished and the salary cap radically altered to include a minimum spend on players and the scrapping of the upper limit, in order to attract the world’s best players to the competition instead of going to France and Ireland."

And there are those who just can't understand why we don't trust the PRL...

And this is what annoys me, pin everything on the PRL to paint them as a pantomime villain...

Saracens are not the PRL, they are 1 of 2 teams who want to increase the salary cap (out of 12). But somehow i think you knew this already!

[Guest]

From the Independent:

"Saracens are calling for relegation from the Aviva Premiership to be abolished and the salary cap radically altered to include a minimum spend on players and the scrapping of the upper limit, in order to attract the world’s best players to the competition instead of going to France and Ireland."

And there are those who just can't understand why we don't trust the PRL...

And this is what annoys me, pin everything on the PRL to paint them as a pantomime villain...

Saracens are not the PRL, they are 1 of 2 teams who want to increase the salary cap (out of 12). But somehow i think you knew this already!

  

[quinsforever]

well of course the highest spending club in the AP wants the cap removed. Doesnt mean its going to happen though. thats the benefit of 12 clubs voting on everything.

munchkin that was a poor trolling effort.

[Guest]

well of course the highest spending club in the AP wants the cap removed. Doesnt mean its going to happen though. thats the benefit of 12 clubs voting on everything.

munchkin that was a poor trolling effort.

No it wasn't. I got three bites. Including you  

[profitius]

I think the language barrier is a big thing. It's difficult to fit straight into the new game plan when you can't communicate properly with coaches and teammates.

You're right.  The French are having a dreadful time understanding Sexton and O'Gara.  

Sextons alright, but ROGs accent just goes through me like nails down a blackboard...

A German friend of mine went to London the other week and when she came back to Cork she said it was good to hear proper English again.   

[beshocked]

Munchkin perhaps Sarries should be flattered that you think they are basically the PRL! Just one club in 12 as pointed out by nathan and stub. As for not trusting us - I think Sarries have been quite open with their opinions.

quinsforever not sure I necessarily agree about it being tougher for youngsters to move. Mako - came to Sarries and has done well.

Ford moving to Bath has been good so far. Twelvetrees moving to Gloucester has seemed to work too. Watson to Bath would probably be defined as a success.

[HammerofThunor]

It's alright Beshocked. It seems that Munchkin has descended to the level of Hersh et al and is fishing. The ol' rotter

On your point. It's arguably best for English International rugby for the top 6 teams to suck up all the best English players and keep qualifying for Europe. They get used to playing with each other, etc.  But it's probably not best for the league as the other teams would have little incentive for producing English players or realistically be able to compete.

Personally I'd have the EPS money being given based on where a player was trained. So for example B Vunipola would generate £X for Wasps and £Y for Saracens. Next season it would be more for Saracens and less for Wasps until Saracens get all of it.

[beshocked]

Hammerofthunor I agree with that.

By the way I don't think the salary cap should be abolished unlike my club but I would like us to be competitive in regards to the salary cap with the French so would not be against another rise.

To be honest I think it's still largely the best managed clubs performing.

Look at Sale. Not a particularly high profile side but they are doing well at the moment. Exeter have a trophy this season and with less stars than most have really made their place in the AP secure.

Some might argue Saracens are where they are simply because of money but they've made canny signings, using the academy well etc.

Leicester and Saints are also well managed. Bath have brought in some experienced coaches which has reaped rewards so far.

In regards to English players. I agree - there should be an incentive for producing good English players but there needs to be balance.

The top English clubs must be able to compete with the top French clubs. Tough I know.

[broadlandboy]

Hammer IIRC the EPS money goes into the PRL pot & is divided between all clubs, irrespective of how many players are provided teams get roughly the same.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

I'd pare at least three sides from the Jeff and bolster the Jeff2 with the top sides from the Championship plus the likes of Newcastle, Wuss, Wasps and Irish.

That'd provide a more compelling step-up league to the top division and bring the Euro Cup B into the real scope of the tier 2 clubs.

Mind you, I'd also make the cap based on (say) 40% of turnover. Just to keep sugar daddies more honest.

Use the time created to structure the season to make way for Europe, drop the playoffs and give the International squad time to prepare to deliver.

Mind you in my world, the EC would have a completely different as would the 64Ns.

But I think you know that.

[HammerofThunor]

Beshocked, definitely the best managed do well. Look at Sarries, the players they brought in weren't superstars, they were grafters who bought into the team ethos. Similar to what Tigers do. Yes they don't generate the money needed to pay for the squad but they're not doing a Toulon. I seem to remember reading that Worcester spend up to the cap.

Broadlandboy, yes they get smoothed out but I don't like that either. I'm not sure on the exact smoothing but there seems to be little benefit to developing young English players for them to be hired by 'better' clubs.

Portnoy, I'd certainly prefer to have it based on turn over if increased much. I think based on recent figures 40% would give Tigers a cap of £8M, Saints £6M and Exeter £4M. A bit too uneven for me.

Then again we could get into the communist state of NFL when the home team gets 60% of the gate and the away team gets 40% of the game (I think that's right).

[Portnoy's Complaint]

HoT, I'd go for a t/o cap capped by an absolute max.

In principle, I'd have no problem with a h/a share of the pot (being a near-Marxist myself), but how would you deal with the gate monies of the Sarries awaydays, London specials etc. divvying up?

Did anyone pay for their ticket at the 'World Record Club Game' the other day?
Maybe they were charged on exit - there weren't that many there at the death.

[Poorfour]

How you configure your salary cap depends on what you want to achieve. A turnover based cap improves financial security but reduces competitiveness when there are wide disparities in income (which there are). An absolute cap helps to ensure competitiveness and allows backers to build up their clubs to a point where they are more financially viable.

Until we have 14 or 15 clubs that are basically profitable with stable support - Mark Evans used to say that a regular gate of 15,000 was pretty much the benchmark - I think the AP needs an absolute cap.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Some teams, Poor4, have invested over decades to get where they are.
Bath, Glaws, Saints, Sarries, Quins, Jesmond, Wasps etc. have grown their bases.

As I said earlier, I'm a near-Marxist, but I see pro-sport for what it is, not so much a sport but more a business where the successful must be seen to thrive with the minimum of Marxist intervention.

It's not as though it's the NHS, Civil Emergency Services or Education like.

English Euro success has declined by dint of the many unsuccessful clubs. And so has the England team (cf. IRFU Plc.)

[Guest]

Munchkin perhaps Sarries should be flattered that you think they are basically the PRL! Just one club in 12 as pointed out by nathan and stub. As for not trusting us - I think Sarries have been quite open with their opinions.

quinsforever not sure I necessarily agree about it being tougher for youngsters to move. Mako - came to Sarries and has done well.

Ford moving to Bath has been good so far. Twelvetrees moving to Gloucester has seemed to work too. Watson to Bath would probably be defined as a success.

Is it just one from 12? I have heard different claims. One claim from someone who supports PRL is that Saracens, Tigers, Bath, and Saints would all agree to either a large rise in the salary cap, or have it abolished altogether. So that would be four, although not all calling for the salary cap to be abolished.
Edward Griffiths makes the point that TI4, and the Province (the Provinces?), are buying in expensive top rated players from around the world, and the present salary cap imposed on AP teams prevents them from competing for signings at the same level. With the new broadcasting deal for the T14 the potential for T14 clubs to increase their spending on foreign players is obvious, and so, according to Griffiths, the salary cap must be abolished in order to compete with T14, and prevent AP player drain to T14 sides.
Lower ranked clubs would naturally be against this as it makes it more difficult to challenge the order of top sides for AP, and European, places.
I doubt the salary cap will be abolished any time soon, but it's more than possible that that there could be a huge rise in the salary cap.

[Guest]

It's alright Beshocked. It seems that Munchkin has descended to the level of Hersh et al and is fishing. The ol' rotter

On your point. It's arguably best for English International rugby for the top 6 teams to suck up all the best English players and keep qualifying for Europe. They get used to playing with each other, etc.  But it's probably not best for the league as the other teams would have little incentive for producing English players or realistically be able to compete.

Personally I'd have the EPS money being given based on where a player was trained. So for example B Vunipola would generate £X for Wasps and £Y for Saracens. Next season it would be more for Saracens and less for Wasps until Saracens get all of it.

No, I was wumming one possible implication, and one claim, to be wumming/trolling.

[HammerofThunor]

Munchkin, no way would Saints or Tigers agree to a significant cap increase, certainly not to abolish it completely. They may want it tied to turnover but they can't afford a significant increase in player costs (and nor would they want others being able to buuy up their players). Only Bath and Saracens have called for it to be scrapped/effectively scrapped.

I'm curious who this is "One claim from someone who supports PRL". Is it just a guy you know or someone of significance?

[HammerofThunor]

I believe the NFL cap has a minimum spend (something like 80%) but it also a franchise system. The idea is you 32(?) teams who are your top level. Unless one of them collapses they will stay the same 32 teams. Then they effective pool most of the resources (not completely) so they all have about the same and push on from there. For a similar system to be implemented here I think we would need to go down the franchise route here. Also the NFL exists in pretty much isolation from other groups. Perhaps if we scrapped Europe we could get something going (although the lure from outside would still be there, unlike the NFL). Over all it simply wouldn't work without a complete and utter overhaul of the whle Enlgish rugby system.

[Guest]

Munchkin, no way would Saints or Tigers agree to a significant cap increase, certainly not to abolish it completely. They may want it tied to turnover but they can't afford a significant increase in player costs (and nor would they want others being able to buuy up their players).  Only Bath and Saracens have called for it to be scrapped/effectively scrapped.

I'm curious who this is "One claim from someone who supports PRL". Is it just a guy you know or someone of significance?

That's the key though, isn't it? We're not just talking about AP players being bought up by other AP teams, but the threat that T14 will move in to pick from amongst the best in AP, now that they have more buying power. How can AP prevent this if not by paying more to retain their best, and how can they do this without raising the salary cap at least to the level to compete with the French on player wages?
Maybe only Bath and Saracens have openly called for it to be scrapped, but you don't really know who amongst the others support that view.
They may not even be sincere in their call to have it scrapped. It doesn't need to be to get what they want. Reach for the moon.....


"I'm curious who this is "One claim from someone who supports PRL". Is it just a guy you know or someone of significance?"

It isn't someone I know, and I haven't a clue if they have a significant opinion in terms of AP. As far as I'm concerned they are just someone with an opinion. Just as you, and I, are. That's was kinda my point. MunsterFans will enlighten you. Not often I will say that  

[Portnoy's Complaint]

So what you are saying is what?, munchkin?

I've heard that someone said something?

The RFU promise that players going abroad don't get an England look in seems to be holding. Toby Flood was dropped like a hot potato for even making it public that he's considering it.

Players that want to play for England will except in dire extremis have to play in England.

And good for English rugby I say.

[Poorfour]

Some teams, Poor4, have invested over decades to get where they are.
Bath, Glaws, Saints, Sarries, Quins, Jesmond, Wasps etc. have grown their bases.

As I said earlier, I'm a near-Marxist, but I see pro-sport for what it is, not so much a sport but more a business where the successful must be seen to thrive with the minimum of Marxist intervention.

It's not as though it's the NHS, Civil Emergency Services or Education like.

English Euro success has declined by dint of the many unsuccessful clubs. And so has the England team (cf. IRFU Plc.)

Portnoy, I am no longer sure whether we're arguing the same side of the argument or not! I agree that pro sport is a business, and I agree that it should be competitive. I agree that pro sport is business, and I agree that successful teams should be allowed to thrive. But I also believe that - especially in an immature professional sport - sustainability is an important consideration.

All those teams you list have indeed grown their bases, though I don't believe any of them are selling 15,000 tickets on a regular basis. Bath and Saints probably could but are constrained by the size of their grounds, Sarries and Wasps are still building their supporter base, Quins are somewhere in the middle - we can regularly sell 12-14k but we need another step up AND a ground expansion to get above 15k. Leicester are way out in front in this regard, through a mixture of history, good management and the good fortune of being on a site where they have plenty of options to expand.

My point is that if you link the cap to turnover today, you would immediately create a 3-tier league. At the bottom you'd have teams like Newcastle, Sale, Worcester, LI and even Exeter and Wasps - those whose supporter base is smaller. In the middle you'd have Glaws, Bath, Quins and Saints. Tigers would be out on their own by some distance. I am not sure where Sarries would sit - their overall supporter base is lower than those I've listed as middle tier, but they may be boosted by Wemberlee and other things they do around the sides.

Under those conditions, competitiveness would go out the window. At the moment, on their day, most of the teams in the league can beat most of the other ones. Even Worcester came within a point of beating Tigers recently, albeit during the international window. Enforce a differentiated salary cap for one full renewal cycle and I guarantee you that that kind of upset would happen much less often. The long term result would be a much more predictable league, meaning that the less successful clubs would stay less successful on the pitch, and struggle to grow off the pitch. Eventually their backers would give up, and when enough of them do that, who do the top clubs play with? The sustainability of the whole league depends on a cap that keeps things competitive.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Added to that (my previous post - sorry p4, I'll get back to you), I'd like the PRL (and RFU(?)) to declare openly and publicly that the Chiefs are not eligible to join the new EC.

Otherwise the 'meritocracy' that they (the PRL) have been espousing for the past 21 months will be justifiably exposed as  just a load of hypocritical hogwash.

[GunsGerms]

So what you are saying is what?, munchkin?

I've heard that someone said something?

The RFU promise that players going abroad don't get an England look in seems to be holding. Toby Flood was dropped like a hot potato for even making it public that he's considering it.

Players that want to play for England will except in dire extremis have to play in England.

And good for English rugby I say.

How will Italian, Scottish and Welsh unions ensure their players remain in their own country now that the shift of Euro club power, profit and access to top competition rests more and more with the richest leagues the AP and Top14?

Sadly greed is creeping into European rugby more and more as the years pass.

[Scrumpy]

It's alright Beshocked. It seems that Munchkin has descended to the level of Hersh et al and is fishing. The ol' rotter

On your point. It's arguably best for English International rugby for the top 6 teams to suck up all the best English players and keep qualifying for Europe. They get used to playing with each other, etc.  But it's probably not best for the league as the other teams would have little incentive for producing English players or realistically be able to compete.

Personally I'd have the EPS money being given based on where a player was trained. So for example B Vunipola would generate £X for Wasps and £Y for Saracens. Next season it would be more for Saracens and less for Wasps until Saracens get all of it.

No, I was wumming one possible implication, and one claim, to be wumming/trolling.

Good to see poor old hersh still gets mentioned!   

[beshocked]

Hammerofthunor so glad Saracens are not doing a Toulon. We've got some good English youngsters coming through like Itoje,Earle and Tompkins which should help England too.

Portnoy's Complaint I don't see what your problem is with clubs holding games at big stadiums. So what if the tickets were discounted or the people who went were casual. It gives people a nice day out, something that I am sure most of us would appreciate. It gives rugby union a high profile and more exposure to the masses.

I know you like to sneer from your golden high horse at Saracens and any club who don't do things the way you would like. Saracens don't have a town they build their support around (okay there is Barnet but we are not Barnet Sarries and we look for a much wider audience than that), support also takes time to build up.

Munchkin just because Edward Griffiths has a point of view doesn't mean the rest of the PRL feel the same way.

Poorfour the thing about some of these clubs is that people don't like to accept that sometimes they do poorly because they are poorly run/managed. Instead of fans like to blame money issues instead.

E.g.I wouldn't say Gloucester are struggling because of the cap. I would say they are struggling because they just aren't performing on the pitch. They've made good signings for next season. It's time for them to deliver.

Losing players to rivals doesn't help but Leicester have lost players but have rebuilt again and again : e.g. Castrogiovanni, Ford,Twelvetrees,Murphy (retired). It hasn't dented their challenge. Their consistency is very impressive.

Pro12 countries in particular like to pour blame onto the likes of the PRL instead of looking closer to home. The Scottish teams I believe are poorly managed. I believe the Welsh are too focussed on the international game instead of the regions (hence why the regions rebelled against the WRU).

The Irish are well run and it shows with the positioning in the Pro12 and the HC.

The lack of protection of Scottish,Welsh players etc is down to their own incompetence in my opinion. The NZ team has protected their team really well despite not being able to offer the same salaries as in Europe.

I think England's policy of protecting their players has worked really well. You could imagine if they didn't have that in place - the big French clubs would swoop in for the likes of Brown,Care,Farrell,Cole,Lawes etc.

[HammerofThunor]

Good to see poor old hersh still gets mentioned!   

I'm just glad he's gone. What a tool

Munchkin, ok, just wanted to make sure it wasn't Peter Wheeler or someone like that after I said they wouldn't And I think I may have seen the post you're referring to. Was it by a Wasps fans? I think he said "At most 4 clubs" not "4 clubs".

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Some teams, Poor4, have invested over decades to get where they are.
Bath, Glaws, Saints, Sarries, Quins, Jesmond, Wasps etc. have grown their bases.

As I said earlier, I'm a near-Marxist, but I see pro-sport for what it is, not so much a sport but more a business where the successful must be seen to thrive with the minimum of Marxist intervention.

It's not as though it's the NHS, Civil Emergency Services or Education like.

English Euro success has declined by dint of the many unsuccessful clubs. And so has the England team (cf. IRFU Plc.)

Portnoy, I am no longer sure whether we're arguing the same side of the argument or not! I agree that pro sport is a business, and I agree that it should be competitive. I agree that pro sport is business, and I agree that successful teams should be allowed to thrive. But I also believe that - especially in an immature professional sport - sustainability is an important consideration.

All those teams you list have indeed grown their bases, though I don't believe any of them are selling 15,000 tickets on a regular basis. Bath and Saints probably could but are constrained by the size of their grounds, Sarries and Wasps are still building their supporter base, Quins are somewhere in the middle - we can regularly sell 12-14k but we need another step up AND a ground expansion to get above 15k. Leicester are way out in front in this regard, through a mixture of history, good management and the good fortune of being on a site where they have plenty of options to expand.

My point is that if you link the cap to turnover today, you would immediately create a 3-tier league. At the bottom you'd have teams like Newcastle, Sale, Worcester, LI and even Exeter and Wasps - those whose supporter base is smaller. In the middle you'd have Glaws, Bath, Quins and Saints. Tigers would be out on their own by some distance. I am not sure where Sarries would sit - their overall supporter base is lower than those I've listed as middle tier, but they may be boosted by Wemberlee and other things they do around the sides.

Under those conditions, competitiveness would go out the window. At the moment, on their day, most of the teams in the league can beat most of the other ones. Even Worcester came within a point of beating Tigers recently, albeit during the international window. Enforce a differentiated salary cap for one full renewal cycle and I guarantee you that that kind of upset would happen much less often. The long term result would be a much more predictable league, meaning that the less successful clubs would stay less successful on the pitch, and struggle to grow off the pitch. Eventually their backers would give up, and when enough of them do that, who do the top clubs play with? The sustainability of the whole league depends on a cap that keeps things competitive.

Poor4,
I don't argue from any 'side'. I've maintained for over over a decade in my singularly Portnoyesque way an independent, ambivalent and curmudgeonly stance.

Overall I want England to do well and to hell how the moneybags of the Jeff want to see their plans materialise and/or dissipate.

Currently there are half a dozen clubs that can just about bumble through the Jeff and I'd let them get on with it with about 2-3 others to threaten them with the hangman's drop to keep them honest.

None of this franchise nonsense for me, I'm afraid.

[beshocked]

Portnoy for England to do well we need our top teams to not be at a disadvantage vs the French teams because the way things are going at the moment - the top 14 will continue to get bigger and more popular meaning the French will inevitably raise the cap further. Pouring more pressure on the English to keep pace. We do not want to get to a situation where the difference in salaries is so great that we cannot even keep hold of our top players.

I don't necessarily want the English clubs to go too high in regards to the salary cap but the French will inevitably force the PRL to react.

It is the French who must be held in check.

[HammerofThunor]

Added to that (my previous post - sorry p4, I'll get back to you), I'd like the PRL (and RFU(?)) to declare openly and publicly that the Chiefs are not eligible to join the new EC.

Otherwise the 'meritocracy' that they (the PRL) have been espousing for the past 21 months will be justifiably exposed as just a load of hypocritical hogwash..

Ok, for one there is no European Competition. for two, how is winning a competition not on merit?

Beshocked, the cap in England is tied the central funding from TV, sponsorship, etc. If you want more money to compete with the French then you increase the central pot, by making the league more attractive to TV, sponsors and advertising. A big part of this is to increase attendences and more people are interested in competitive games. So it's all tied in and most of the clubs are aware of that.

[beshocked]

Hammerofthunor sounds fair I guess. I think the big games in large stadiums help this. Could some of the local derbies be played in bigger stadiums? E.g. Saints vs Leicester at MK Stadium?

[thebandwagonsociety]

Hammerofthunor so glad Saracens are not doing a Toulon. We've got some good English youngsters coming through like Itoje,Earle and Tompkins which should help England too.

Portnoy's Complaint I don't see what your problem is with clubs holding games at big stadiums. So what if the tickets were discounted or the people who went were casual. It gives people a nice day out, something that I am sure most of us would appreciate. It gives rugby union a high profile and more exposure to the masses.

I know you like to sneer from your golden high horse at Saracens and any club who don't do things the way you would like. Saracens don't have a town they build their support around (okay there is Barnet but we are not Barnet Sarries and we look for a much wider audience than that), support also takes time to build up.

Munchkin just because Edward Griffiths has a point of view doesn't mean the rest of the PRL feel the same way.

Poorfour the thing about some of these clubs is that people don't like to accept that sometimes they do poorly because they are poorly run/managed. Instead of fans like to blame money issues instead.

E.g.I wouldn't say Gloucester are struggling because of the cap. I would say they are struggling because they just aren't performing on the pitch. They've made good signings for next season. It's time for them to deliver.

Losing players to rivals doesn't help but Leicester have lost players but have rebuilt again and again : e.g. Castrogiovanni, Ford,Twelvetrees,Murphy (retired). It hasn't dented their challenge. Their consistency is very impressive.

Pro12 countries in particular like to pour blame onto the likes of the PRL instead of looking closer to home. The Scottish teams I believe are poorly managed. I believe the Welsh are too focussed on the international game instead of the regions (hence why the regions rebelled against the WRU).

The Irish are well run and it shows with the positioning in the Pro12 and the HC.

The lack of protection of Scottish,Welsh players etc is down to their own incompetence in my opinion. The NZ team has protected their team really well despite not being able to offer the same salaries as in Europe.

I think England's policy of protecting their players has worked really well. You could imagine if they didn't have that in place - the big French clubs would swoop in for the likes of Brown,Care,Farrell,Cole,Lawes etc.

Good post. There are definitely plenty of places for teams/leagues/owners/fans to improve and money, while it might be a partial factor, is overblown in its importance and used as a scapegoat by a lot of decision makers.

[Poorfour]

Portnoy for England to do well we need our top teams to not be at a disadvantage vs the French teams because the way things are going at the moment - the top 14 will continue to get bigger and more popular meaning the French will inevitably raise the cap further. Pouring more pressure on the English to keep pace. We do not want to get to a situation where the difference in salaries is so great that we cannot even keep hold of our top players.

I don't necessarily want the English clubs to go too high in regards to the salary cap but the French will inevitably force the PRL to react.

It is the French who must be held in check.

But my point to both of you is that if the top AP clubs are allowed to spend significantly more than the other teams in the AP, it will eventually destroy the AP, because if it becomes uncompetitive the fans and backers will drift away from the lower teams.

It's not just about "well-run" vs "not well-run". Exeter are, by any reasonable definition, a well-run club. They've had a bit of luck in owning some land in the right place, which has helped to fund their rise, but they've played well, bought well, developed new players, got a decent stadium with room to expand, built a fan base from the ground up and IIRC, turn a profit. But they still only have attendances of around 7,000 a game (ASBO, correct me if I'm wrong on any of the detail there).

If you imposed a turnover-based cap today, Exeter would be one of losers. They would probably be able to keep going, but they would cease to be properly competitive against the bigger sides.

They've only had a few years in the top division to build up their fanbase. If you imposed a turnover-based cap in, say, 10 years' time, it might be less of an issue - for them. You still need 10-12 teams in that position or you don't have a viable league.

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