The New European Cup Thread (Merged)

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Can anyone provide an update on what is going to actually happen from next season?

A factual update would be welcome. As brief as possible.

Opinionated views not so.

[beshocked]

thebandwagonsociety thank you.

Even with moneybags Toulon you can see the improvement they have shown when they've replaced St Andre.

A side like Bath has begun to make more intelligent signings - instead of signing over the hill Leicester tigers players like Moody,Hipkiss and Vesty they've been signing bright youngsters like Watson and Ford.

Signings for Gloucester that should have really shone like Morgan and Ksevic have not (Morgan seems to be much better for England).

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Hammerofthunor sounds fair I guess. I think the big games in large stadiums help this. Could some  of the local derbies be played in bigger stadiums? E.g. Saints vs Leicester at MK Stadium?

MK Dons has a capacity of 30k.

Why would any sane person try to extend their normal crowd of 15-20k to 30k and pay someone else for the privilege?

Even Villa Park is only 40k.

Only in London (where the brains are) does that kind of logic exist.

Best they got on with their own destruction and leave the rest of us out of it.

[beshocked]

Portnoy for England to do well we need our top teams to not be at a disadvantage vs the French teams because the way things are going at the moment - the top 14 will continue to get bigger and more popular meaning the French will inevitably raise the cap further. Pouring more pressure on the English to keep pace. We do not want to get to a situation where the difference in salaries is so great that we cannot even keep hold of our top players.

I don't necessarily want the English clubs to go too high in regards to the salary cap but the French will inevitably force the PRL to react.

It is the French who must be held in check.

But my point to both of you is that if the top AP clubs are allowed to spend significantly more than the other teams in the AP, it will eventually destroy the AP, because if it becomes uncompetitive the fans and backers will drift away from the lower teams.

It's not just about "well-run" vs "not well-run". Exeter are, by any reasonable definition, a well-run club. They've had a bit of luck in owning some land in the right place, which has helped to fund their rise, but they've played well, bought well, developed new players, got a decent stadium with room to expand, built a fan base from the ground up and IIRC, turn a profit. But they still only have attendances of around 7,000 a game (ASBO, correct me if I'm wrong on any of the detail there).

If you imposed a turnover-based cap today, Exeter would be one of losers. They would probably be able to keep going, but they would cease to be properly competitive against the bigger sides.

They've only had a few years in the top division to build up their fanbase. If you imposed a turnover-based cap in, say, 10 years' time, it might be less of an issue - for them. You still need 10-12 teams in that position or you don't have a viable league.

Depends what you mean by "well run". If it's down to profit then Saracens are doing appallingly in that area because they run a large loss but I feel that though that's the case Saracens have added a lot to the AP. Just in a contrasting way to Exeter. Whilst Exeter quietly get along with their business, Saracens are a bit loud, outspoken and really trying to shake things up. You could argue that Exeter are the "heroes" of the AP whereas Sarries are the "villains" of the AP. Every story needs a compelling villain though. Plus I think generally the villain is more interesting.    

Though that's the case I feel that both ways can co-exist in the AP. If every club was like Exeter I think the AP would be a bit boring but on the other hand if every club was run like Saracens it would not be good for the AP either.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Portnoy for England to do well we need our top teams to not be at a disadvantage vs the French teams because the way things are going at the moment - the top 14 will continue to get bigger and more popular meaning the French will inevitably raise the cap further. Pouring more pressure on the English to keep pace. We do not want to get to a situation where the difference in salaries is so great that we cannot even keep hold of our top players.

I don't necessarily want the English clubs to go too high in regards to the salary cap but the French will inevitably force the PRL to react.

It is the French who must be held in check.

But my point to both of you is that if the top AP clubs are allowed to spend significantly more than the other teams in the AP, it will eventually destroy the AP, because if it becomes uncompetitive the fans and backers will drift away from the lower teams.

It's not just about "well-run" vs "not well-run". Exeter are, by any reasonable definition, a well-run club. They've had a bit of luck in owning some land in the right place, which has helped to fund their rise, but they've played well, bought well, developed new players, got a decent stadium with room to expand, built a fan base from the ground up and IIRC, turn a profit. But they still only have attendances of around 7,000 a game (ASBO, correct me if I'm wrong on any of the detail there).

If you imposed a turnover-based cap today, Exeter would be one of losers. They would probably be able to keep going, but they would cease to be properly competitive against the bigger sides.

They've only had a few years in the top division to build up their fanbase. If you imposed a turnover-based cap in, say, 10 years' time, it might be less of an issue - for them. You still need 10-12 teams in that position or you don't have a viable league.

Poss a bit higher on attendances, but otherwise spot on

[beshocked]

Hammerofthunor sounds fair I guess. I think the big games in large stadiums help this. Could some  of the local derbies be played in bigger stadiums? E.g. Saints vs Leicester at MK Stadium?

MK Dons has a capacity of 30k.

Why would any sane person try to extend their normal crowd of 15-20k to 30k and pay someone else for the privilege?

Even Villa Park is only 40k.

Only in London (where the brains are) does that kind of  logic exist.

Best they got on with their own destruction and leave the rest of us out of it.

Still astride your golden horse I see. I was just making a suggestion. You don't need to answer in such a spiteful manner.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Added to that (my previous post - sorry p4, I'll get back to you), I'd like the PRL (and RFU(?)) to declare openly and publicly that the Chiefs are not eligible to join the new EC.

Otherwise the 'meritocracy' that they (the PRL) have been espousing for the past 21 months will be justifiably exposed as  just a load of hypocritical hogwash..

Ok, for one there is no European Competition. for two, how is winning a competition not on merit?

Beshocked, the cap in England is tied the central funding from TV, sponsorship, etc. If you want more money to compete with the French then you increase the central pot, by making the league more attractive to TV, sponsors and advertising. A big part of this is to increase attendences and more people are interested in competitive games. So it's all tied in and most of the clubs are aware of that.

No European Competition?   What's this OP about then?
I'm almost beshocked. But I can't be that bad.
A competition like the LV= which was designed as a filler between the Jeff, HC and IWs played largely by second teams is no justification for EC accreditation.
And that is meant in no way disrespectfully to the Chiefs. I posted the same sentiment last year when the Tigers got their free pass.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Portnoy for England to do well we need our top teams to not be at a disadvantage vs the French teams because the way things are going at the moment - the top 14 will continue to get bigger and more popular meaning the French will inevitably raise the cap further. Pouring more pressure on the English to keep pace. We do not want to get to a situation where the difference in salaries is so great that we cannot even keep hold of our top players.

I don't necessarily want the English clubs to go too high in regards to the salary cap but the French will inevitably force the PRL to react.

It is the French who must be held in check.

But my point to both of you is that if the top AP clubs are allowed to spend significantly more than the other teams in the AP, it will eventually destroy the AP, because if it becomes uncompetitive the fans and backers will drift away from the lower teams.

It's not just about "well-run" vs "not well-run". Exeter are, by any reasonable definition, a well-run club. They've had a bit of luck in owning some land in the right place, which has helped to fund their rise, but they've played well, bought well, developed new players, got a decent stadium with room to expand, built a fan base from the ground up and IIRC, turn a profit. But they still only have attendances of around 7,000 a game (ASBO, correct me if I'm wrong on any of the detail there).

If you imposed a turnover-based cap today, Exeter would be one of losers. They would probably be able to keep going, but they would cease to be properly competitive against the bigger sides.

They've only had a few years in the top division to build up their fanbase. If you imposed a turnover-based cap in, say, 10 years' time, it might be less of an issue - for them. You still need 10-12 teams in that position or you don't have a viable league.

Depends what you mean by "well run". If it's down to profit then Saracens are doing appallingly in that area because they run a large loss but I feel that though that's the case Saracens have added a lot to the AP. Just in a contrasting way to Exeter. Whilst Exeter quietly get along with their business, Saracens are a bit loud, outspoken and really trying to shake things up. You could argue that Exeter are the "heroes" of the AP whereas Sarries are the "villains" of the AP. Every story needs a compelling villain though. Plus I think generally the villain is more interesting.    

Though that's the case I feel that both ways can co-exist in the AP. If every club was like Exeter I think the AP would be a bit boring but on the other hand if every club was run like Saracens it would not be good for the AP either.

Could you elaborate pls?

[beshocked]

Well technically it depends what you mean by European. Is just 6 nations a fair representation of an European competition?

Let's be honest everyone wants to protect their own interests. I haven't seen much support for the less developed rugby nations from most rugby fans on here.

Personally I would like to see more done for the likes of Germany,Belgium,Romania and Spain. Not sure if Georgia counts as Europe.

[beshocked]

Portnoy for England to do well we need our top teams to not be at a disadvantage vs the French teams because the way things are going at the moment - the top 14 will continue to get bigger and more popular meaning the French will inevitably raise the cap further. Pouring more pressure on the English to keep pace. We do not want to get to a situation where the difference in salaries is so great that we cannot even keep hold of our top players.

I don't necessarily want the English clubs to go too high in regards to the salary cap but the French will inevitably force the PRL to react.

It is the French who must be held in check.

But my point to both of you is that if the top AP clubs are allowed to spend significantly more than the other teams in the AP, it will eventually destroy the AP, because if it becomes uncompetitive the fans and backers will drift away from the lower teams.

It's not just about "well-run" vs "not well-run". Exeter are, by any reasonable definition, a well-run club. They've had a bit of luck in owning some land in the right place, which has helped to fund their rise, but they've played well, bought well, developed new players, got a decent stadium with room to expand, built a fan base from the ground up and IIRC, turn a profit. But they still only have attendances of around 7,000 a game (ASBO, correct me if I'm wrong on any of the detail there).

If you imposed a turnover-based cap today, Exeter would be one of losers. They would probably be able to keep going, but they would cease to be properly competitive against the bigger sides.

They've only had a few years in the top division to build up their fanbase. If you imposed a turnover-based cap in, say, 10 years' time, it might be less of an issue - for them. You still need 10-12 teams in that position or you don't have a viable league.

Depends what you mean by "well run". If it's down to profit then Saracens are doing appallingly in that area because they run a large loss but I feel that though that's the case Saracens have added a lot to the AP. Just in a contrasting way to Exeter. Whilst Exeter quietly get along with their business, Saracens are a bit loud, outspoken and really trying to shake things up. You could argue that Exeter are the "heroes" of the AP whereas Sarries are the "villains" of the AP. Every story needs a compelling villain though. Plus I think generally the villain is more interesting.    

Though that's the case I feel that both ways can co-exist in the AP. If every club was like Exeter I think the AP would be a bit boring but on the other hand if every club was run like Saracens it would not be good for the AP either.

Could you elaborate pls?

You're everyone's 2nd favourite team in the AP. You're admired for doing things the proper way - by the book, playing an "exciting" style, making a profit, not having star power,using the academy, certainly not being outspoken plus you win enough matches to be liked and respected but not enough to be disliked. You've got a "proper" stadium with "proper" fans. You don't do stunts. You've built up your fanbase with your own money. You also don't send your players to be pampered in various locations around the globe.

Whereas fans find reasons to dislike Sarries whether it's for our players like Farrell and Ashton, our CEO, Edward Griffiths or our chairman Nigel Wray, our South African connection, our style of play, the "salary cap", our antics like using the PA, our silly song, wind ups etc. Plus let's be honest people don't like losing - especially to a side  like Saracens who don't play in the "proper" manner. Certainly a team that people are wary of but not a likeable side. Oh and then there are fans like me who occasionally wind up people.   I think it shows how wary teams of us when they are resting their best players vs us.

[HammerofThunor]

Exeter are about 8500 average in the league.

[HammerofThunor]

Added to that (my previous post - sorry p4, I'll get back to you), I'd like the PRL (and RFU(?)) to declare openly and publicly that the Chiefs are not eligible to join the new EC.

Otherwise the 'meritocracy' that they (the PRL) have been espousing for the past 21 months will be justifiably exposed as  just a load of hypocritical hogwash..

Ok, for one there is no European Competition. for two, how is winning a competition not on merit?

Beshocked, the cap in England is tied the central funding from TV, sponsorship, etc. If you want more money to compete with the French then you increase the central pot, by making the league more attractive to TV, sponsors and advertising. A big part of this is to increase attendences and more people are interested in competitive games. So it's all tied in and most of the clubs are aware of that.

No European Competition?   What's this OP about then?

It's about a potential European Cup.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Foff, HoT. You know precisely that amounts to the same thing.

[Poorfour]

Whereas fans find reasons to dislike Sarries whether it's for our players like Farrell and Ashton, our CEO, Edward Griffiths or our chairman Nigel Wray, our South African connection, our style of play, the "salary cap", our antics like using the PA, our silly song, wind ups etc. Plus let's be honest people don't like losing - especially to a side  like Saracens who don't play in the "proper" manner. Certainly a team that people are wary of but not a likeable side. Oh and then there are fans like me who occasionally wind up people.   I think it shows how wary teams of us when they are resting their best players vs us.

beshocked, you really need to get a handle on that paranoia! Not every post is an attack on Sarries, their management, their players or their business model.

All I was saying was that if you raise the cap too far and too fast, or create a differential cap when the disparities between teams are so huge, you will eventually damage or destroy the league as a whole. It wasn't a specific point against Sarries [1]. I picked Exeter as an example because they would be badly affected by a raised cap but can't be accused of being badly run.


[1] Who I actually quite like and could well have ended up supporting if I were not a Quins fan (and if Barnet were in anyway easy to get to from SW London). The only thing I can hold against Sarries (apart from your annoying tendency to beat us) is the manner of Richard Hill's departure. That seemed to be very badly handled, though I don't know what happened behind the scenes.

[Guest]

So what you are saying is what?, munchkin?

I've heard that someone said something?

The RFU promise that players going abroad don't get an England look in seems to be holding. Toby Flood was dropped like a hot potato for even making it public that he's considering it.

Players that want to play for England will except in dire extremis have to play in England.

And good for English rugby I say.

Most of the debate here is based on 'I heard that someone said something', and many of the claims in the tabloids are based on the same 'I heard someone said something', or to be more exact; 'A source told me that someone told them..'.

What I'm saying is that Griffiths is right in that T14 clubs will continue to increase investing in overseas players to bolster their squads, now that they have their big money deal. This will add pressure to AP clubs as T14 can outbid them for players, overseas or otherwise, and in doing so will be even harder to compete against than they are now. AP clubs become weaker, T14 becomes stronger, and unless AP clubs can match T14 spending power to keep their own players, and bolster their own squads with players from overseas, from Wales, from Ireland, they will continue to fall short in Europe. Now that the AP has more money promised for their league, and Euro games, they may be able to compete against the T14, but to do so effectively they will need the salary cap to rise. As the salary cap rises, so does player wage inflation as bidding heats up, and as wages rise, so does the need for more money to be poured into the game. A vicious circle...
Ok, there are checks and balances in place which limits the salary cap, and also helps prevent player drain to T14, but that will only work if PRL are willing to cede to the spending power of T14, and accept that they will never be in as strong a position as their counterparts to lift European silverware. It will also be very difficult to hold unto your most valued players when they're being tempted with huge salaries to play T14, even at the risk them of being excluded from playing for the national side. PRL won't be willing. Listening to some of the nonsense about Irish sides competing in Europe tells us this much. The RFU can insist on a limited salary cap, but if AP sides really can't compete with the T14 in bidding for overseas players, and if AP sides do lose English players to T14, then the RFU will be put under a huge amount of pressure to either scrap the salary cap, or at least increase it by a huge amount.
We already know what happens when one side has more spending power than the other. How many Welsh players have been signed by AP clubs this season?

[Exiledinborders]

Munchkin, why would the RFU come under pressure because of the salary cap? It has nothing to do with the RFU. It was put in place by the PRL to control wage inflation and to maintain a competitive league.

I am sure the cap will rise with new TV deals. The AP will continue to pay less than Top14 but TV in England is worth enough to keep them in touch. RFU selection policy keeps England players and hopefuls in AP.

[HammerofThunor]

Foff, HoT. You know precisely that amounts to the same thing.

No, you want the PRL/RFU to make an official statement about a competition that doesn't exist yet. That's nonsense.

[Guest]

Munchkin, why would the RFU come under pressure because of the salary cap? It has nothing to do with the RFU. It was put in place by the PRL to control wage inflation and to maintain a competitive league.  

I am sure the cap will rise with new TV deals. The AP will continue to pay less than Top14 but TV in England is worth enough to keep them in touch. RFU selection policy keeps England players and hopefuls in AP.

Yes, my bad. The PRL set the cap.

The RFU selection policy should help retain players in AP, but T14 potentially increasing their offers to players will tempt players to move away, even at the risk of losing out on selection. It happens.

There's no question that the cap will rise as revenue increases, as will wage inflation, but it will also rise as T14 up the pressure on AP in a bidding war. One that AP can't win unless they have a significant increase in the salary cap. Touching distance now, perhaps a stretch, but for how long? Some may not like the manner in which Griffiths conducts business, including me, but he's no idiot.

[Guest]

Good to see poor old hersh still gets mentioned!   

I'm just glad he's gone. What a tool  

Munchkin, ok, just wanted to make sure it wasn't Peter Wheeler or someone like that after I said they wouldn't  And I think I may have seen the post you're referring to. Was it by a Wasps fans? I think he said "At most 4 clubs" not "4 clubs".

Yep, a Wasp fan. Sometimes when people say 'at most' on one side of debate, they are trying to downplay the numbers involved. Just my take on it   

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

Just seen this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BNtmANhYSQ&feature=youtu.be

It's really funny, but kinda sad if this is the sort of crepe that Irish fans are being fed. Horgan does well to pull it in towards the end.

[Jimpy]

Good to see poor old hersh still gets mentioned!   

I'm just glad he's gone. What a tool  

Munchkin, ok, just wanted to make sure it wasn't Peter Wheeler or someone like that after I said they wouldn't  And I think I may have seen the post you're referring to. Was it by a Wasps fans? I think he said "At most 4 clubs" not "4 clubs".

Yep, a Wasp fan. Sometimes when people say 'at most' on one side of debate, they are trying to downplay the numbers involved. Just my take on it   

Does it not strike anyone as too much of a coincidence that Hersh was a Bath supporter too, liked to wind people up and receives unsolicited praise from a member who is also a Bath supporter, likes to wind people up and joined 606V2 after Hersh mysteriously left...

Just saying...

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Foff, HoT. You know precisely that amounts to the same thing.

No, you want the PRL/RFU to make an official statement about a competition that doesn't exist yet. That's nonsense.

True, HoT. I do want the PRL/RFU to make an official statement urgently. It is significant in terms of the qualification. And for credibility

If they say 'yes' to the Chiefs for the LV= Cup win then that would turn the meritocracy claim on its head especially if they finish 7th (or lower) and the 6th Jeff club has to go through the qualifying round against a T14 side.

[Scrumpy]

New format for the Euro Cup


The new competition will consist of:

- Top 6 from Aviva Premiership
- Top 6 from Top 14
- Top 6 from Pro12
- 1 guest team from South Africa
- a Barbarians Invitational XV


http://www.therugbyblog.com/european-cup-format-for-next-season-revealed

[munkian]

Seems legit

[HammerofThunor]

Foff, HoT. You know precisely that amounts to the same thing.

No, you want the PRL/RFU to make an official statement about a competition that doesn't exist yet. That's nonsense.

True, HoT. I do want the PRL/RFU to make an official statement urgently. It is significant in terms of the qualification. And for credibility

If they say 'yes' to the Chiefs for the LV= Cup win then that would turn the meritocracy claim on its head especially if they finish 7th (or lower) and the 6th Jeff club has to go through the qualifying round against a T14 side.

But you can't expect them to announce the official qualification route for a competition before that competition even exists (well you can but I think that is daft).

Once we know the competition is in and WILL take place, THEN you can start looking at qualification (although I'd expect the qualification routes to be announced with the competition).

[HammerofThunor]

"a Barbarians Invitational XV"

Does that mean Saracens get an automatic spot? Or are they the South African guest side?

[munkian]

Good to see poor old hersh still gets mentioned!   

I'm just glad he's gone. What a tool  

Munchkin, ok, just wanted to make sure it wasn't Peter Wheeler or someone like that after I said they wouldn't  And I think I may have seen the post you're referring to. Was it by a Wasps fans? I think he said "At most 4 clubs" not "4 clubs".

Yep, a Wasp fan. Sometimes when people say 'at most' on one side of debate, they are trying to downplay the numbers involved. Just my take on it   

Does it not strike anyone as too much of a coincidence that Hersh was a Bath supporter too, liked to wind people up and receives unsolicited praise from a member who is also a Bath supporter, likes to wind people up and joined 606V2 after Hersh mysteriously left...

Just saying...

I do have my suspicions too

[beshocked]

Poorfour not paranoia. That's just how I think Exeter and Saracens are perceived. I mentioned those two clubs because they are contrasts of each other. Two sides in the AP with completely opposing viewpoints. I think they are the one club who voted against Saracens having the artificial pitch at Allianz Park.

Every club has different stances in the AP but with most of them we don't know what they stand for.

Quins and Gloucester have been quiet on most matters for example.


Jimpy I think it's pretty much common knowledge that Hersh=Scrumpy.

It's a bit like Greyghost changing his alias. It's still the same poster.

[Scrumpy]

What are the chances!   

[lostinwales]

Poorfour not paranoia. That's just how I think Exeter and Saracens are perceived. I mentioned those two clubs because they are contrasts of each other. Two sides in the AP with completely opposing viewpoints. I think they are the one club who voted against Saracens having the artificial pitch at Allianz Park.

Every club has different stances in the AP but with most of them we don't know what they stand for.

Quins and Gloucester have been quiet on most matters for example.


Jimpy I think it's pretty much common knowledge that Hersh=Scrumpy.

It's a bit like Greyghost changing his alias. It's still the same poster.

I dont know. I used to find Hersh funny, although he did get carried away sometimes

[HammerofThunor]

Nah, Hersh was awful in an unfunny way
Shhh, he's listening

[Guest]

New format for the Euro Cup


The new competition will consist of:

- Top 6 from Aviva Premiership
- Top 6 from Top 14
- Top 6 from Pro12
- 1 guest team from South Africa
- a Barbarians Invitational XV


http://www.therugbyblog.com/european-cup-format-for-next-season-revealed

So they've done away with ERC, and given us all Herrpi's   

[beshocked]

Munchkin you do realise it's an April's Fool no?

[Guest]

Munchkin you do realise it's an April's Fool no?

Obviously. Was hoping for more reactions. Herrpi's from HER is quite funny   

[HammerofThunor]

I couldn't stop laughing for long enough to type a resonse. Just about recovered now.

  

[Guest]

"Is the introduction of HERPPIs something that interests you?"    .....  

[geoff998rugby]

Just saw this post on Gwlad - talking about some comments made by Shane Horgan.

Fuc!ing Irish.

Looking to dump us and jump into bed with their Saes masters at the first opportunity.

Oh the irony   

A true gem

[munkian]

Geoff

I'm pretty sure a comment like that was made by some Irish fans about the Welsh teams when this whole Rabbo/Euro cup uncertainty started.

Is this comment not just taking the mick (heh) out of it ?

[geoff998rugby]

You would like to think so but that is such an ill formed and spiteful board I am not so sure.

[munkian]

Its pretty much word for word what Irish posters wrote about Wales.

Do you have a subscription then ?

[Guest]

Its pretty much word for word what Irish posters wrote about Wales.

Do you have a subscription then ?

Two wrongs don't make a right, munkian, but this is slightly different circumstances.

Gwlad have some great members who are both intelligent and reasonable. Then there are the resident trolls. Some blatantly anti Irish. One of the more intelligent, and reasonable, members who happens to be Irish resigned his membership. It used to be a place of decent discussion and good banter. Far from what it is now...

[geoff998rugby]

I don't have a subscription - no way I would give them money - but I do go there as a registered guest i.e. read only.

[The Great Aukster]

Wasn't it the Welsh regions who broke ranks and tried to jump on board the PRL bandwagon?

Once the solidarity was broken by the RRW, it is understandable that any trust is now gone and it will be every man for himself.

[beshocked]

The great aukster the problem is that the Welsh regions felt hard done by the WRU. When you have clubs at loggerheads with their union it makes it hard for a compromise.

The RFU in comparison didn't declare their support for PRL but neither did they go against them. They acted in a mediator role.

Surely it's always been every man for himself - everyone's own interests come first.

Some people like to take the moral high ground but I don't think they can.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

The great aukster the problem is that the Welsh regions felt hard done by the WRU. When you have clubs at loggerheads with their union it makes it hard for a compromise.

The RFU in comparison didn't declare their support for PRL but neither did they go against them. They acted in a mediator role.

Surely it's always been every man for himself - everyone's own interests come first.

Some people like to take the moral high ground but I don't think they can.

Including the RFU? Or are we all meant to believe in Ian Ritchie's imminent sainthood?

[beshocked]

The great aukster the problem is that the Welsh regions felt hard done by the WRU. When you have clubs at loggerheads with their union it makes it hard for a compromise.

The RFU in comparison didn't declare their support for PRL but neither did they go against them. They acted in a mediator role.

Surely it's always been every man for himself - everyone's own interests come first.

Some people like to take the moral high ground but I don't think they can.

Including the RFU?  Or are we all meant to believe in Ian Ritchie's imminent sainthood?

Well the RFU have their own interests too. Keeping the PRL content is important. No I don't think he deserves a sainthood. He's just been a canny operator - allowing PRL to take all the flack whilst he will come out of this as a saviour.

Don't forget that he needs everything to be rosy with the 2015 world cup coming up. As I said RFU cares about RFU, PRL cares about PRL,WRU cares about WRU, IRFU cares about IRFU etc.

That's of course if the new European competition details will be signed off. Are the Italians still refusing to play ball?

[geoff998rugby]

Wasn't it the Welsh regions who broke ranks and tried to jump on board the PRL bandwagon?

Once the solidarity was broken by the RRW, it is understandable that any trust is now gone and it will be every man for himself.

That is one of the lasting outcomes of this farce.
The Irish will not be trusting the Welsh anytime soon.
They tried to ensure the Scots and the Italians were not scuppered in any deal - The Welsh didn't.
I expect the IRFU to be far more self centred going forward

[beshocked]

The IRFU aren't self centred already? How naive. You want to keep the status quo because it suits Ireland perfectly. You dress it up as helping the Scots and Italians but let's be honest....your own interests come first.

Welsh interests come before Scottish and Italian interest - I don't blame them for that. Surely you Pro12 guys repeatedly say you are separate countries?

Separate countries have separate needs and wants. You are united as the Pro12 when convenient for your argument and divided as four separate countries when convenient for your argument too.

When you are four separate countries there is no surprise there is division in how things should be shared/done.

The four countries don't even share the same systems - The Irish "clubs" are controlled by the IRFU. The Welsh regions are called regions but are not linked to the WRU like the Irish. Edinburgh and Glasgow are clubs. Treviso and Zebre are clubs.

It's like with the EU when you compare Germany to Greece - different way of doing things.

[HammerofThunor]

Wasn't it the Welsh regions who broke ranks and tried to jump on board the PRL bandwagon?

Once the solidarity was broken by the RRW, it is understandable that any trust is now gone and it will be every man for himself.

That is one of the lasting outcomes of this farce.
The Irish will not be trusting the Welsh anytime soon.
They tried to ensure the Scots and the Italians were not scuppered in any deal - The Welsh didn't.
I expect the IRFU to be far more self centred going forward

What about the stuff that the SRU were the reason the 5 union thing didn't go ahead? Don't know where that came from but it was floating about on MunsterFans.

[Guest]

Wasn't it the Welsh regions who broke ranks and tried to jump on board the PRL bandwagon?

Once the solidarity was broken by the RRW, it is understandable that any trust is now gone and it will be every man for himself.

That is one of the lasting outcomes of this farce.
The Irish will not be trusting the Welsh anytime soon.
They tried to ensure the Scots and the Italians were not scuppered in any deal - The Welsh didn't.
I expect the IRFU to be far more self centred going forward

What about the stuff that the SRU were the reason the 5 union thing didn't go ahead? Don't know where that came from but it was floating about on MunsterFans.

I think I first spotted that in one of the papers, can't remember which, and then in one of the regions fans forums, before it filtered its way to MunsterFans. Sure didn't you know that SRU and RRW are best friends?

MunsterFans have quite a few English and Welsh visitors. It could be that one of them made the claim on MunsterFans.

[geoff998rugby]

Not being niave - understand perfectly that the reason the Irish argued the Scottish and Italain corner was to maintain a strong Pro12 but the by product of that was they were doing their best to keep professional rugby viable in 2 other countries.

As I say the outcome of all of this, especially if the SRU thing is true, is the IRFU wont thing twice of ditching the Welsh and Scottish going forward.

The reality also is the Irish teams have a capacity to match the English and French in a way the others cannot. TV companies like that - thrilling games with the results in the balance.

This is where the AW thing was never viable - Saracens/Tigers/Saints putting 50+ over Cardiff or Dragons ia complete turn off commercially.

If the IRFU have any sense they will be thinking 5 years ahead and talking to the big players of England, France, maybe SA without any regard to their Pro12 opponents.

Now if the Welsh commit to the Pro12 and get themselves organized things coudl be different but if they dont two can play at the every man for themselves game.

[Sponsored content]