The New European Cup Thread (Merged)

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Can anyone provide an update on what is going to actually happen from next season?

A factual update would be welcome. As brief as possible.

Opinionated views not so.

[beshocked]

Geoff the problem is that only the Irish are organised in the Pro12. You can match the English and French because you are well run. The Pro12 needs this shake up for positive change to be made.

The way Scottish rugby and Italian rugby will thrive is if they get their act together. Same with the Welsh.

There's plenty they can do to improve. They just like to use the lack of money as a scapegoat for failure.

This means that the Italians should have been doing all they could to attract Parisse back to Italy. Imagine how much of a boost it would be for Italian rugby to have their talisman playing for an Italian club.

Scotland should be better now they've managed to sign up a half decent coach - Cotter. Still need to sort out the issues like Edinburgh playing at Murrayfield - a stadium too big for their current needs etc. Make sensible recruitments. Bringing McHeathcote to Scotland would be a start.

The auto qualification for the HC in my opinion has meant that the Italians and Scots have got into false sense of security. Happy with their hand out. The notion that they might need to improve to get their hand out frightens them.

[Guest]

Geoff the problem is that only the Irish are organised in the Pro12. You can match the English and French because you are well run. The Pro12 needs this shake up for positive change to be made.

The way Scottish rugby and Italian rugby will thrive is if they get their act together. Same with the Welsh.

There's plenty they can do to improve. They just like to use the lack of money as a scapegoat for failure.

This means that the Italians should have been doing all they could to attract Parisse back to Italy. Imagine how much of a boost it would be for Italian rugby to have their talisman playing for an Italian club.

Scotland should be better now they've managed to sign up a half decent coach - Cotter. Still need to sort out the issues like Edinburgh playing at Murrayfield - a stadium too big for their current needs etc. Make sensible recruitments. Bringing McHeathcote to Scotland would be a start.

The auto qualification for the HC in my opinion has meant that the Italians and Scots have got into false sense of security. Happy with their hand out. The notion that they might need to improve to get their hand out frightens them.

I agree with your post    Although I might add the Welsh regions in your last comment.

[geoff998rugby]

Agree with all of that bar the last paragraph.

I dont believe they were happy with the situation they just didn't have the ability to change it.

Trouble is trust has gone - the Irish will/have lost patient.
Unless the Welsh get their act together the Irish will not think twice about ditching them in the future.
In truth unless the Welsh can get their act together and be competitive against the Irish the Pro12 is not going to survive.

Thats scary because when I think of RRW and WRU a phrase with the words 'p!ss up' and 'brewery' come to mind

[beshocked]

Got to give credit Connacht. They are improving. I have criticised them quite a bit but 7th in the league shows they are on an upward curve.

You talk about the inability to change it. Not sure I agree. The regions should have been more forceful in getting the WRU to help them - that means protect top Welsh players.

Losing the likes of North,Roberts,Phillips etc damages the Welsh regions. It was avoidable in my opinion - well it could have at least been limited. If you don't play in Wales you cannot play for Wales - should have been the policy. When you let the horse bolt it's difficult to recover the situation.

If the AP lost the likes of Care,Manu,Cole,Farrell and Brown to the Top 14 it would of course damage the AP.

Unfortunately it's now tougher for the Welsh to get their act together because they've lost most of their big stars - the players fans pay to see.

If a side like Sale can show an upturn in their fortunes on with a hardly stellar squad then I think other clubs can do so too.

Sale beat Bath and Saints who on paper have far better squads.

[Poorfour]

Agree with all of that bar the last paragraph.

I dont believe they were happy with the situation they just didn't have the ability to change it.

Trouble is trust has gone - the Irish will/have lost patient.
Unless the Welsh get their act together the Irish will not think twice about ditching them in the future.
In truth unless the Welsh can get their act together and be competitive against the Irish the Pro12 is not going to survive.

Thats scary because when I think of RRW and WRU a phrase with the words 'p!ss up' and 'brewery' come to mind

Interesting that you think the Pro12 is under threat. I am not so sure, because you still need a domestic league to make a viable season; that's one reason why the whole "England could have a smaller league / concentrate its European places on the top few teams" argument is spurious. What would the provinces do if it were to break up?

[geoff998rugby]

I dont think it is under immediate threat but because the Irish dominate it it could be in future.
The Welsh, Ospreys aside, do not offer credible opposition.
Welsh rugby must sort itself out, and being committed to the competition, is vital for Pro12 survival.
 
If not it will not be of interest to a sponsor.
 
If its true the current agreement are 4/5 long then a lot can change in that time - lets hope it does.
However if we are in the same situation, as now, 4 years down the line (Irish teams dominating) and the English are looking to spice up their league a B & I league could come to the table
 
The game changers, from now, would be it is would be the Irish provinces not the Welsh regions who have the product to spice things up i.e. be attractive to sponsors, and unlike now the Irish would not have any misplaced loyalty keeping the other Celtic nations afloat.
 
To be honest if the gloves come off between nations it is Wales and Scotland who are staring down the end of a barrell not Ireland with respect to having a product that will enhance a new league and bring in extra revenue.

[andyi]

One thing has become clear this weekend. There is a serious problem with the Amlin and any 2nd tier competiton moving forward. Stuart Barnes mentioned it in todays ST and its pretty plain given the results.

Basically the French teams couldn't give a toss about it. Stade Francais left out 13 first teamers at home against Quins, so a stand out tie became a no-contest. Brive are getting absolutely mullered at Bath.

In the shiny new Europe being suggested by the PRL/French, there is no place in the top tier competition for the winners of the 2nd tier one. How do they expect to sell this lame dog to Sponsors and TV companies. It seems ironic given that improving the 2nd competition was one of their main selling points.

[Notch]

I agree. At least if the Amlin winners get an automatic place there is some incentive! Next year there will be even less incentive than there is now, and there isn't much now.

[LeinsterFan4life]

One thing has become clear this weekend. There is a serious problem with the Amlin and any 2nd tier competiton moving forward. Stuart Barnes mentioned it in todays ST and its pretty plain given the results.

Basically the French teams couldn't give a toss about it. Stade Francais left out 13 first teamers at home against Quins, so a stand out tie became a no-contest. Brive are getting absolutely mullered at Bath.

In the shiny new Europe being suggested by the PRL/French, there is no place in the top tier competition for the winners of the 2nd tier one. How do they expect to sell this lame dog to Sponsors and TV companies. It seems ironic given that improving the 2nd competition was one of their main selling points.

The SF coach even admitted that he rested players because there was no automatic qaulification to the HC and I'm sure the same happened to Brive. The thing is though,It will be more interesting next year as there will be more Rabo teams is the Amlin next year and they will be definitely be trying to win it along with the English clubs.

[Feckless Rogue]

The union proposal for an enlarged 32 team European Cup would have been better.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

The union proposal for an enlarged 32 team European Cup would have been better.

Fitting a 32-club tournament into an already packed schedule would be pretty much impossible with the currently over-stuffed leagues.

[HammerofThunor]

The union proposal for an enlarged 32 team European Cup would have been better.

For who? The 6 teams who have no additional competition to play in? I'm guessing you mean all Pro12 teams would be in it.

[HammerofThunor]

The union proposal for an enlarged 32 team European Cup would have been better.

Fitting a 32-club tournament into an already packed schedule would be pretty much impossible with the currently over-stuffed leagues.

8 pools of 4, no more games than now.

[Feckless Rogue]

Portnoy, It could be done in the exact same number of games. 8 groups of four. Winners of each group go to the quarters. No lucky second places. No extra qualification pressure on the Franglo leagues. No damage to Scottish or Italian rugby.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Eight pools of four would mean finding 32 competitive clubs to keep the qualifiers competitive.

Twenty-four teams could be found and allow time to have home and away k/o stages (I bet that Ulster and Leinster fans would like that chance just now).

Plus that means they can be divvied into the current proposal of three Euro cups.

A second parallel 24-team pan-European competition with some sort of eligibility to the following year's main competition could be then addressed in order to fulfil wider obligations to the game.

[Feckless Rogue]

A two legged rugby tie; I'm not sure. Has that ever been tried? Imagine an away team three points down, just kicking the ball out of play to end the game. It just wouldn't seem right.

I just think a 32 team comp would have solved a lot of our problems. The strongest teams would still make it to the knockouts. But even the weakest sides would be reasonably competitive. The best thing about comps like the FA Cup or the All Ireland Championship is that everyone gets a shot, even the weaker teams, and sometimes there are upsets and giant killings.

As of next year there is even less incentive to try in the 2nd tier comp. It'll be very hard to promote. UEFA have always had the same problem with the Europa League, which has been rebranded a few times with no effect. UEFA are now considering scrapping it and expanding the "Champions" league to 64. Those who think the way soccer does things is the right way to run a sport should take note.

[HammerofThunor]

A two legged rugby tie; I'm not sure. Has that ever been tried? Imagine an away team three points down, just kicking the ball out of play to end the game. It just wouldn't seem right.

I just think a 32 team comp would have solved a lot of our problems. The strongest teams would still make it to the knockouts. But even the weakest sides would be reasonably competitive. The best thing about comps like the FA Cup or the All Ireland Championship is that everyone gets a shot, even the weaker teams, and sometimes there are upsets and giant killings.

As of next year there is even less incentive to try in the 2nd tier comp. It'll be very hard to promote. UEFA have always had the same problem with the Europa League, which has been rebranded a few times with no effect. UEFA are now considering scrapping it and expanding the "Champions" league to 64. Those who think the way soccer does things is the right way to run a sport should take note.

Except for the 6 teams that were to be excluded (I'm guessing all French and English) from all forms of European competition. Which is why the French discounted it immediately.

[Feckless Rogue]

I would have said the top 10 from both the AP and PRO12 and top 12 from the TOP14. But that does leave the bottom two of each league out.

Anyway it's pointless talking about it now.

[doctornickolas]

After the weekend's surrender before kick off of the French teams in the Amlin, I think they have to have a HC spot for the Amlin winner.

What is the point in more games via play offs to decide who gets in to the last spot.

I always felt that the Rabo should get 8 places in the HC, well this would be a chance to get 8 teams in but it would have to be earned.

Also a chance for a French or English side to get 7 teams in. Makes sense to me.

The play offs just sound like a weak compromise to me. England have all 4 semi finalists in the Amlin this year so should expect an extra place in the HC next year.

In future years lets say for instance if Cardiff Blues won it next year then they should create an extra space for a Welsh team in the following years HC.

Otherwise I can see the Amlin just not working at all, the French will just put out reserve teams. Other sides may just do the same and keep players fresh for their leagues, as those games will count.

[HammerofThunor]

Without a doubt I would have it so the Amlin winner auto qualifes and is taken out of the pool of other qualifiers (so if a Scottish team wins it they would have two Scottish teams in the HEC).

It just makes sense.

[broadlandboy]

As the new comp is more league based wouldn't it be sensible for the league to get the extra place rather than the Union? That way you have a sense of them earning their place rather than giving it.

[Hound of Harrow]

Unless there is some tangible reward for winning the Amlin, what's the point of it?

Wow - we won the 'not good enough for the HC Cup'. What do we get for that? Err - a cup, and that's it.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but how long will it take for teams finishing 7th in the Rabo getting peed off at having to cede their spot in the new tourny to an Italian team? Assuming an Italian team don't finish 7th or above?

[quinsforever]

it's up to the rabo how they divide their 7 spots. good question whether this will create a rift between the four nations represented in the rabo over time. wouldnt be a surprise.

[doctornickolas]

As the new comp is more league based wouldn't it be sensible for the league to get the extra place rather than the Union? That way you have a sense of them earning their place rather than giving it.

I understand that but I can see the Amlin becoming another LV= Cup scenario without any reward at the end other than your name on the cup. Sides will use it to rest first team players and give the fringe players/youngsters a game.

The league will be their priority whether it is avoiding relagation or chasing HC spots for the next season and this comp will wither and die when we really need it do blossom.

[geoff998rugby]

Agreed it will become the European LV Cup - the French especially will be putting out
2nd XV.

[broadlandboy]

Don't think I made my point. I agree that the Tier 2 winner should get a spot in the next year Tier 1 comp but the extra place should go to the league(if the Tier 2 winner qualifies through league position as well) rather than go to the Union. I know that this only effects the Pro 12 but surely it's better for league position to determine qualification than another team got it for .

[andyi]

Don't think I made my point. I agree that the Tier 2 winner should get a spot in the next year Tier 1 comp but the extra place should go to the league(if the Tier 2 winner qualifies through league position as well) rather than go to the Union. I know that this only effects the Pro 12 but surely it's better for league position to determine qualification than another team got it for .

Yep, that makes sense, following the model used by UEFA from next year for the Europa League winners getting into the following seasons Champions league.

It should be 7,6,6 + the Amlin winner. If the Amlin winner has already qualified then the next best placed team in the winners League should go in. That gives an incentive for teams to chase 7th in the AP and TOP14 and 8th in the PRO12, whilst giving the Amlin a purpose, it sadly lacking at the moment. As the whole thing is money driven, it will happen anyway as the Amlin is Poopie now and about as attractive to sponsors and broadcasters as a fart in a spacesuit.

[XR]

I dont think it is under immediate threat but because the Irish dominate it it could be in future.
The Welsh, Ospreys aside, do not offer credible opposition. Welsh rugby must sort itself out, and being committed to the competition, is vital for Pro12 survival.

The blues were competative before we moved stadiums, this caused us to lose a lot of money and not adequately replace ageing players who were big players for us (Rush/Tito/Blair/MW). It's hit us hard but the one crumb of comfort is guys like Navidi, Patchell, Allen & Owen Williams have come through and are really showing some great potential, Navidi in particular. We showed against Ulster that we can compete when the stars align but more often than not our team gets beaten.

I think next season we should provide a tougher test for the irish teams, we may still not win but i would hope that we give a better account of ourselves and not let them run riot. We've signed players for next season which will improve our squad (Mitchell & Hoeata), we just need to get the right DOR in place to take us forward. We're doing well financially and we have a young squad littered with talent, we have a very promising coaching team in Chief and Paul John who are experienced winners with Ponty. We just need a quality DOR to underpin it all.

As for europe, a run in the Amlin would do us good i think. We're not at the level of the top tier teams that would compete in the main competition.

[Feckless Rogue]

Let's be honest, normally half the French entrants in the HC itself don't make a whole lot of effort either. They'll always just see the Top14 as more important. Even if there was no relegation or qualification they'd still priorities their league because of its history, and because they're just more inward looking and in love with themselves than the rest of us.

I believe they'll expand the French league in the coming years. Only the real big spenders will be bothered looking for Euro glory.

And only an incentive to win the second tier competition has any hope of making some French teams bother with it. Why they did away with the top tier qualification incentive I have no idea.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

It would appear that the Italians continue to stall progress to a mutually acceptable solution to the New EC conundrum.

So, what is holding up the Italians? "First of all there are issues to be solved in the Celtic league area for us and when we settle those we can move forward on to the bigger stage," Alfredo Gavazzi, Italian Rugby Federation president since 2012, told ESPN.

The stakeholders of the PRO12 have reached a new four-year agreement with FIR that will see Italy sit on the board with the same power of its Irish, Scottish and Welsh counterparts but it seems that on the first €20m promised by the new European agreement, FIR would receive just €4.7m, while the other three Unions would get €5.1m.

"Well, that's one of the aspects we need to address quickly", confirmed Gavazzi. "We agreed to equally share the weight of the board so someone should explain to me why we should get less than the other Unions involved in the Celtic League. Italy has two teams in the actual RaboDirect Pro12, the same as Scotland, but we have more representatives in the European competitions so why do we have to receive less than the SRU? That amount should be divided in four equal parts of €5m each in my opinion. We will discuss about that as well as other statutory details that should be rectified to reflect the changes we agreed board-wise"

Plus other issues over broadcasting and residual ERC commitments.

http://www.espn.co.uk/italy/rugby/story/221145.html

[Hound of Harrow]

I dont think it is under immediate threat but because the Irish dominate it it could be in future.
The Welsh, Ospreys aside, do not offer credible opposition. Welsh rugby must sort itself out, and being committed to the competition, is vital for Pro12 survival.

The blues were competative before we moved stadiums, this caused us to lose a lot of money and not adequately replace ageing players who were big players for us (Rush/Tito/Blair/MW). It's hit us hard but the one crumb of comfort is guys like Navidi, Patchell, Allen & Owen Williams have come through and are really showing some great potential, Navidi in particular. We showed against Ulster that we can compete when the stars align but more often than not our team gets beaten.

I think next season we should provide a tougher test for the irish teams, we may still not win but i would hope that we give a better account of ourselves and not let them run riot. We've signed players for next season which will improve our squad (Mitchell & Hoeata), we just need to get the right DOR in place to take us forward. We're doing well financially and we have a young squad littered with talent, we have a very promising coaching team in Chief and Paul John who are experienced winners with Ponty. We just need a quality DOR to underpin it all.

As for europe, a run in the Amlin would do us good i think. We're not at the level of the top tier teams that would compete in the main competition.

Good honest post about the potential at the Blues and where they are now. I feel pretty much the same about Wasps gc, aside from the DOR bit.

Dai Young is building a decent squad but dropped a brick when making Chris Bell captain. He is not a rallying point.

Getting Wade and Varndell back will make a huge difference to our chances of qualifying for the top comp next season.

As an aside, the main reason for the Italians' delay in signing up is that they will be cut from four teams to two in the Amlin. Effectively one from the Rabo and their league winners.

Mind you, when teams from the lower reaches of the AP and T14 regularly post scores of 50+ on them it's understandable.

I've really enjoyed the away trips to Italy - fantastic hosts. Their clubs will lose a lot of match day revenue if they don't get games against well supported  teams.

[Hound of Harrow]

Thanks for that info on the Italian stance PC. I can understand their position.

[Sin é]

It would appear that the Italians continue to stall progress to a mutually acceptable solution to the New EC conundrum.

So, what is holding up the Italians? "First of all there are issues to be solved in the Celtic league area for us and when we settle those we can move forward on to the bigger stage," Alfredo Gavazzi, Italian Rugby Federation president since 2012, told ESPN.

The stakeholders of the PRO12 have reached a new four-year agreement with FIR that will see Italy sit on the board with the same power of its Irish, Scottish and Welsh counterparts but it seems that on the first €20m promised by the new European agreement, FIR would receive just €4.7m, while the other three Unions would get €5.1m.

"Well, that's one of the aspects we need to address quickly", confirmed Gavazzi. "We agreed to equally share the weight of the board so someone should explain to me why we should get less than the other Unions involved in the Celtic League. Italy has two teams in the actual RaboDirect Pro12, the same as Scotland, but we have more representatives in the European competitions so why do we have to receive less than the SRU? That amount should be divided in four equal parts of €5m each in my opinion. We will discuss about that as well as other statutory details that should be rectified to reflect the changes we agreed board-wise"

Plus other issues over broadcasting and residual ERC commitments.

http://www.espn.co.uk/italy/rugby/story/221145.html

I heard the issue was that the Welsh Regions want the money split by team, not by Union.

Also interesting that the Italians want to see the BT broadcasting deal. I can't believe that the English are the only ones who have seen it so far.

Also, they want the ERC wound up and all the employee contracts ect sorted. I've a funny feeling the new competition will not be leaving Ireland just yet.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Plus the Italians gripe with the Celtic sides being um errr a tad uneven with their equal partners?

The PRL deal with BTS presumably covers both the domestic league and Euro deals.

I would have thought that the Jeff segment of that deal would be commercially private. Presumably the EC deal was a sub-offer which the EC partners would have in principle accepted.

But I admit that I'm guessing on that point.

[Sin é]

Plus the Italians gripe with the Celtic sides being um errr a tad uneven with their equal partners?

The PRL deal with BTS presumably covers both the domestic league and Euro deals.

I would have thought that the Jeff segment of that  deal would be commercially private. Presumably the EC deal was a sub-offer which the EC partners would have in principle accepted.

But I admit that I'm guessing on that point.

From what I heard, the IRFU are willing to split it by Union (the difference is 100k less I think if they go that way for them). Its the Scots who want more than the Italians (and it was the Scots who broke ranks with the other Unions to accept the new cup).

History repeating itself again. The Scots didn't want the Italians in the Pro12 or the 6Ns in the first place.

If the PRL are going into partnership in this new competition, its only right that the Unions should see what their agreement is. They can keep it confidential if necessary. I really don't see why they are reluctant to show their new partners their new partners the deal unless they have something to hide from them.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Something to hide?

I haven't an effin clue, Sin.

I'm only guessing - like I said.

But almost certainly in the original contract there would have been commercially sensitive material which couldn't be shared. Certainly at the time before the ERC had agreed at counter-sign with Sky.

I'm only supposing that BTS and the PRL hacked out a sum to tempt the ERC stakeholders.
Presumably there was a new, separate EC offer/contract put to the table upon which a deal was struck.

[LeinsterFan4life]

Let's be honest, normally half the French entrants in the HC itself don't make a whole lot of effort either. They'll always just see the Top14 as more important. Even if there was no relegation or qualification they'd still priorities their league because of its history, and because they're just more inward looking and in love with themselves than the rest of us.

I believe they'll expand the French league in the coming years. Only the real big spenders  will be bothered looking for Euro glory.

And only an incentive to win the second tier competition has any hope of making some French teams bother with it. Why they did away with the top tier qualification incentive I have no idea.

I don't get this? every French team in the HC cares. Did you not see some of the Perpignan players in tears after the Munster game? Racing's fans were going mental after they were embarrased at the hands of Quins. Its only when they know they can't qualify they give up, which is understandable as its a long season for them. Castres, I thought were outstanding this year in our group and Montpellier were very good last year.

[Sin é]

I think their new partners would like to know if the PRL received a sum of money from BT to destroy the ERC/Sky deal.

The Scots withdrew their support because presumably pressure from BT who sponsor Edinburgh & Glasgow in the League. Apparently BT also tried to buy off the Irish provinces with offers of sponsorship.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

I think their new partners would like to know if the PRL received a sum of money from BT to destroy the ERC/Sky deal.

The Scots withdrew their support because presumably pressure from BT who sponsor Edinburgh & Glasgow in the League. Apparently BT also tried to buy off the Irish provinces with offers of sponsorship.

Certainly the PRL were given a very large sum of money to break away from Sky - hence their deal.
Or are you suggesting corrupt payments?

Ulster are already under a BT sponsorship contract.

What exactly are you suggesting/saying?

The Italians certainly appear to be unhappy with the Scottish share of the pot though.

[Feckless Rogue]

Let's be honest, normally half the French entrants in the HC itself don't make a whole lot of effort either. They'll always just see the Top14 as more important. Even if there was no relegation or qualification they'd still priorities their league because of its history, and because they're just more inward looking and in love with themselves than the rest of us.

I believe they'll expand the French league in the coming years. Only the real big spenders  will be bothered looking for Euro glory.

And only an incentive to win the second tier competition has any hope of making some French teams bother with it. Why they did away with the top tier qualification incentive I have no idea.

I don't get this? every French team in the HC cares. Did you not see some of the Perpignan players in tears after the Munster game? Racing's fans were going mental after they were embarrased at the hands of Quins. Its only when they know they can't qualify they give up, which is understandable as its a long season for them. Castres, I thought were outstanding this year in our group and Montpellier were very good last year.

You're right it's, when they know they can't qualify that they stop trying. But that can be two games in, or even one. The rest fight for every game in Europe no matter what. The Welsh/Scots/Italians are currently too weak to make the playoffs often but they put out their best teams.

My point is the league is much more important to the French, and removing a big incentive to winning the second tier comp is a bad idea. I'm sure the PRO12 and AP sides will give it a good go, but even for them, would you blame them for losing interest if one result goes the wrong way?

A competition is only as good as how important the entrants believe it to be.

[LeinsterFan4life]

Let's be honest, normally half the French entrants in the HC itself don't make a whole lot of effort either. They'll always just see the Top14 as more important. Even if there was no relegation or qualification they'd still priorities their league because of its history, and because they're just more inward looking and in love with themselves than the rest of us.

I believe they'll expand the French league in the coming years. Only the real big spenders  will be bothered looking for Euro glory.

And only an incentive to win the second tier competition has any hope of making some French teams bother with it. Why they did away with the top tier qualification incentive I have no idea.

I don't get this? every French team in the HC cares. Did you not see some of the Perpignan players in tears after the Munster game? Racing's fans were going mental after they were embarrased at the hands of Quins. Its only when they know they can't qualify they give up, which is understandable as its a long season for them. Castres, I thought were outstanding this year in our group and Montpellier were very good last year.

You're right it's, when they know they can't qualify that they stop trying. But that can be two games in, or even one. The rest fight for every game in Europe no matter what. The Welsh/Scots/Italians are currently too weak to make the playoffs often but they put out their best teams.

My point is the league is much more important to the French, and removing a big incentive to winning the second tier comp is a bad idea. I'm sure the PRO12 and AP sides will give it a good go, but even for them, would you blame them for losing interest if one result goes the wrong way?

A competition is only as good as how important the entrants believe it to be.

I agree that the winner of the Amlin should qualify as it gives teams an incentive to win it. The SF coach even admitted he changed his team selection because of the new qualification rules and I'm sure the same happened to Brive as before the QF they seemed well up for the competition. The competition could struggle to gain interest and sponsors now.

[quinsforever]

not sure how much Amlin paid for it anyway.

the problem particularly for the french teams this year is that their domestic league is so close at the top and the bottom, and with 2 relegation spots and the title still very much in play, they have every incentive to rest players in the Amlin if they can.

not an easy problem to fix. Amlin will never stack up against winning domestic silverware or avoiding domestic relegation, especially with the new french tv deal being worth eur6m per team from next season in tv rights alone....

[Feckless Rogue]

A competition is only as good as how important the entrants believe it to be.

I'd add to that by saying that the importance and prestige of Europe's top tournament is self evident. Expanding to more teams would have increased ratings and sponsorship. The idea that a team like Connacht would be more interested in a weaker second tier tournament because they have a better chance of winning is demonstrateably untrue. More people went to the two games at home to Toulouse in the last two years than any other Connacht games. And more all over Ireland tuned in to games they were tipped to lose and ultimately did lose, than to any Amlin game they were tipped to win. More ratings = more TV money etc etc.

And Connacht ultimately did beat Toulouse in France. We didn't expect they could but they did. I'd bet some of the weaker more humble French and English teams could surprise us too. Especially at home. Interest across Europe would be higher with all or most pro teams from the 6 Nations involved. I know I said there's no point discussing my preferred expanded tournament. I don't know why I keep bringing it up. I just think it would have been better all round.

[HammerofThunor]

That's a bit of a leap. By expanding you are, pretty much by definition, adding worse teams. Will that really increase sponsorship? Sky couldn't really broadcast more games so you're not getting viewing number increases and most of these teams have relatively poor crowds.

The increased interest on the Amlin and here was marked when Leinster were in it even though there was no danger of them not getting into the Amlin. Will it ever be a premier competition? Of course not. Can it grow from where it is now? Certainly. The Anglo-welsh only became a development competition when it got moved to the international window. Before that it generated more money for the clubs than the HEC (apparently).

[geoff998rugby]

The Italians are reporting the new competiton wil lbe called

'European Challange Cup'

So the clubs get the word Challange in
The Unions ensure European is include

Alsmost sounds like a compromise

[Sin é]

I think their new partners would like to know if the PRL received a sum of money from BT to destroy the ERC/Sky deal.

The Scots withdrew their support because presumably pressure from BT who sponsor Edinburgh & Glasgow in the League. Apparently BT also tried to buy off the Irish provinces with offers of sponsorship.

Certainly the PRL were given a very large sum of money to break away from Sky - hence their deal.
Or are you suggesting corrupt payments?

Ulster are already under a BT sponsorship contract.

What exactly are you suggesting/saying?

The Italians certainly appear to be unhappy with the Scottish share of the pot though.

No, I'm not suggesting corrupt payments. They wouldn't be in the contract if they were corrupt. I would like to know if the intention of the PRL was to destroy ERC so that BT got their hands on the media contract or whether they wanted to 'improve' European rugby.

The PRL made some serious allegations about the ERC and their staff. The Unions would want to know if the staff could sue them for unfair dismissal etc., and if they can, the PRL will pay them off.

Bear in mind 20 people are going to lose their jobs under a cloud of charges of incompetence from the PRL/LNR.

Bank of Ireland is Ulster's main (Jersey) sponsor. BT is secondary, so probably not worth a lot.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Tw4tter reporting an imminent (in the next hour) announcement regarding the new competition - just in time really, as the Payne YC/RC/just a penalty thread was beginning to flag!   

[geoff998rugby]

Future of European Rugby resolved
10 April 2014
Deal features three cross-border club competitions
“This is an excellent outcome for all concerned” – RFU CEO Ian Ritchie

Photo: Getty Images
A new deal on European club rugby has been signed. All nine stakeholders* have underlined their commitment to an invigorated competition that will start in the 2014/5 season and meets the requirements of all the parties involved.

It is a truly meritocratic tournament, with appropriate division of finances, underpinned by a long-term agreement and strong governance. It features three cross-border club competitions to be called the European Rugby Champions Cup, the European Rugby Challenge Cup and a new competition called the Qualifying Competition.

RFU Chairman Bill Beaumont CBE said: “The benefits will be seen far and wide, from the clubs to the supporters, sponsors and everyone who has followed the fabulous mix of high class rugby and good natured rivalry – all played out in many spectacular towns and cities in Europe.

“The RFU, and in particular Ian Ritchie, has invested significant time over the last few months in helping to find a solution to a problem that at one stage looked difficult to solve. We are very pleased that the challenges off the pitch are concluded so we can enjoy the joys of the game on it, creating more unforgettable memories for players and fans alike.”

RFU CEO Ian Ritchie added: “This is an excellent outcome for all concerned, most importantly the players and supporters who have made European rugby what it is today. This equitable, long term agreement will provide the platform for rugby union to continue to expand across Europe, increasing interest and involvement in the game at all levels.

“I would like to credit all parties, including BT and Sky Sports, for their efforts in reaching an agreement for the benefit of the competition and the future of the sport.”

Overview
Three new cross-border club competitions will be created, to be called the European Rugby Champions Cup, the European Rugby Challenge Cup and a new competition called the Qualifying Competition

An association will be established in Switzerland called 'European Professional Club Rugby' (EPCR). This body will be responsible for organising and managing the Cup Competitions.

European Rugby Champions Cup qualification

Twenty clubs qualify through the finishing positions in their leagues from the preceding season. This includes the top six from Top 14, the top six from Premiership Rugby, the top seven from Pro 12, with at least one club from each country participating in the league.

In the first season, the 20th place will be taken by the winner of a play off between the seventh-highest finishing club from Top 14 and the seventh-highest finishing club from Premiership Rugby. This play off will be played in May 2014, either as one match (in which case, there will be a draw for home advantage) or home and away over two legs.

For subsequent seasons this will be between the seventh-highest finishing club from Top 14, the seventh-highest finishing club from Premiership Rugby and the eighth- and ninth-highest finishing clubs from Pro 12 (or the two highest-finishing which have not already qualified automatically).

From the 2015 season, if the previous season’s European Rugby Challenge Cup winner has not already qualified through its finishing position in its league, it will participate in the play off by taking a place given to its league.

The play off will take place over two dates, firstly seeing the seventh-placed club in theTop 14 versus eighth or ninth from Pro 12 and the seventh club of Premiership Rugby versus eighth or ninth from Pro12. The matches will be played at the home venues of the Top 14 and Premiership Rugby clubs. The second date sees the two winners from the first matches play each other, the venue will be selected by a draw.

Finally, the quarter-final winners will play the semi-finals and the semi-final winners will play the final.

European Rugby Challenge Cup qualification

Twenty clubs qualify including 18 clubs from Top 14, Premiership Rugby and Pro 12. The two other clubs will come from the qualifying competition organised with FIRA-AER (Fédération Internationale de Rugby Amateur-Association Européenne de Rugby)

Format of both competitions

The competition will take place over nine weekends. The Pool phase will be through five Pools of four teams which will play each other home and away (six matches). The five Pool winners and the 3 best runners-up will qualify for the quarter-finals. The quarter-finals will be played at the home venues of the four best Pool winners.

Calendar of both competitions

The Pool phase will be played in three blocks of two weekends and will be completed by the end of January. The final will take place latest the first weekend of May.

EPCR

EPCR will be managed through a Board of Directors representing all parties and an Executive committee in charge of commercial matters and assisting with preparations of Board meetings. The EPCR Board shall have an Independent Chairman.

The EPCR Executive will comprise the Independent Chairman, Director-General, and three voting representatives, one from each of the leagues – namely the Top 14, Premiership Rugby and Pro 12. The Director-General shall manage the day to day operations of EPCR.

Competitions will be under the aegis of the IRB and run according to the IRB Laws Relating to the Game and IRB Regulations. The parties have also agreed to form a working party to discuss and propose the principles of an integration of European competitions within an all-encompassing European rugby framework.

There is a minimum eight-year agreement.

The Qualifying Competition

This will comprise of between eight and 12 teams from Tier 2 countries and Italian clubs as agreed by EPCR & FIRA-AER.

Distribution of funds

This will be equal, i.e a third to Top 14 teams, a third to Premiership Rugby teams and a third to Pro 12 teams, with a guaranteed minimum distribution for the clubs from the Pro12 in years 1-5.

Broadcasters

BT and Sky have reached an agreement in principle concerning arrangements for the European Rugby Champions Cup and the European Rugby Challenge Cup competitions, both of which would be broadcast jointly by BT Sport and Sky Sports.

The pool matches would be shared equally, both will show two quarter-finals each, one semi-final each and the final would be broadcast by both live. The four-year agreement is subject to contract.

*The nine stakeholders are: Federation Francaise de Rugby (FFR), Federazione Italiana Rugby (FIR), The Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU), Ligue Nationale De Rugby (LNR), Premiership Rugby Ltd (PRL), Regional Rugby Wales Ltd (RRW), The Rugby Football Union (RFU), Scottish Rugby Union PLC (SRU) and The Welsh Rugby Union Ltd (WRU).

The parties take seriously their obligations to ERC and their staff and will ensure an orderly and proper transition to the new association


A biggy there is it is for 8 YEARS

[Ozzy3213]

Tw4tter reporting an imminent (in the next hour) announcement regarding the new competition - just in time really, as the Payne YC/RC/just a penalty thread was beginning to flag!   

  

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Nothing about seedings?

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