Joe Schmidt responds to Denis Leamy's parochial rant!!

First topic message reminder :

Leamy's article prior to the Ireland game in which he claimed there was a Leinster bias which could harm our WC chances:
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/denis-leamy-questions-schmidt-selection-30091421.html

Schmidts response:
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/joe-schmidt-denies-having-a-leinster-bias-1.1729932

“For me, I select Irish players. If people want to differentiate, if people want to divide that provincially, that’s their prerogative,” he said. “But, as a group, we’re just trying to select the Irish national team. If people are going to be distracted by provincial loyalties, then that is something that is certainly not happening within the group.

“I think there has been a super unity within the group. It is probably always disappointing to get criticised. I can totally understand the perception. But, what I can totally guarantee is that we have all the stats, we watch all the games and we try to do as much homework as we possibly can.”

Oh Zebo is. The problem he's had is that so are half a dozen other wingers in Ireland. It's brilliant actually, we started the tournament with two guys who weren't even in the squad last year on the wings and we still outscored everyone else. Thats depth my friend. Your strength in death is measured as much by the guys you can afford to leave out as the guys you bring in. The reason he's not in the team is we can have guys who have advantages over him in other areas and as a team we can still score 16 tries in five games! I don't think suggesting he needs to brush up on his breakdown or rucking or support play or something else is saying... whatever you said I was intimating.

Zebo is a great attacking player, but Schmidt approaches attack as a collective art as opposed to the domain of individual maestros. If it doesn't work criticise away but you're on very weak ground if you accuse the top try scorers in the 6N of missing his attacking play.

Most the half a dozen wingers are injured that might be as good, if not better than him. He is a much better player than Dave Kearney (who is seriously short on pace). If Zebo is behind Dave Kearney, he better forget ever playing for Ireland again.

But then Kearney has done a very good job for us. If Kearney had played badly, there might be some justification but he hasn't. He is probably the one guy I'd replace in the team but he deserves his medal, no doubt about it.

I would say he (Zebo) has a chance of featuring on the summer tour if he keeps working and improving. Trimble was out of the frame for a while, looked like he might be finished actually, but he put a lot of hard work in on the aspects of his game that were keeping him out of the team with the Ireland video analysts and seized his chance. What better example for Zebo?

Schmidt should have had more starting Leinster players and be more biased! I was shocked he went with 'past it' Trimble and 'cant cut it' Henry at 7. I was expecting McFadden to start off while Luke recovered. Jennings or Jordi at 7 too. Shocking too that Best started ahead of the 'Usain' Cronin. If Reddan started against England we would have won......clearly! I could go on and on but Schmidt has lost touch with reality and needs to remember where he learned his trade.

This is a wonderfully uniting post....

Notch wrote:Oh Zebo is. The problem he's had is that so are half a dozen other wingers in Ireland. It's brilliant actually, we started the tournament with two guys who weren't even in the squad last year on the wings and we still outscored everyone else. Thats depth my friend. Your strength in death is measured as much by the guys you can afford to leave out as the guys you bring in. The reason he's not in the team is we can have guys who have advantages over him in other areas and as a team we can still score 16 tries in five games! I don't think suggesting he needs to brush up on his breakdown or rucking or support play or something else is saying... whatever you said I was intimating.

Zebo is a great attacking player, but Schmidt approaches attack as a collective art as opposed to the domain of individual maestros. If it doesn't work criticise away but you're on very weak ground if you accuse the top try scorers in the 6N of missing his attacking play.

That isn't developing depth. He used the same two guys for the whole tournament on the wings. I just hope that we don't have to use Kearney again. With a bit of pace on the wings we might have won a Grand Slam. I don't recall Dave Kearney scoring any tries in the last six nations.

Notch wrote:But then Kearney has done a very good job for us. If Kearney had played badly, there might be some justification but he hasn't. He is probably the one guy I'd replace in the team but he deserves his medal, no doubt about it.

I would say he (Zebo) has a chance of featuring on the summer tour if he keeps working and improving. Trimble was out of the frame for a while, looked like he might be finished actually, but he put a lot of hard work in on the aspects of his game that were keeping him out of the team with the Ireland video analysts and seized his chance. What better example for Zebo?

To me Schmidt is using Zebo to put manners on everyone else - i.e., ''I'm not afraid to cut a high profile player like Zebo down to size. Do as I say or your out.''

It's not developing depth. There is depth in the back three whatever he does.

Italy?

I've read this Leamy article before...before tonight...but I'll act like I'm reading it for a first time yet again.

Leamy suggests Italy as the side we might have tried out some of the rest of the gang, or even a few of the troops that didn't get to camp; and a different 13 with it?  That's roughly his argument, as he admits the reality that Schmidt wanted to keep to players familiar to him for a first shot at the Championship.  But no matter - Leamy still thinks he could'a given Italy to experimentation?

Italy - that nothing game against a nothing side - damn near killed us.  
Why?  Because even with our team of Schmidt familiars, who knew his system inside out (along with some 'obedient' outlanders ) - even this side of Championship push familiars, they themselves didn't get enough out of that game even as we scored 7 tries and 46 points.

We almost fluffed our lines for one more underperforming year.  Only because Italy put up a little resistance to the English challenge the week after and stopped them hitting their target did we survive yet another Might have Been title shot.

So - Leamy felt an experiment team with a new 13 might have been chosen to take on Italy in a nothing-to-lose game.  One we'd certainly have hoped to beat but wouldn't have fretted too much if it was just 6 tries rather than 7, or 5 tries rather than 6, or 4 tries rather than 5?

Is that what Leamy was suggesting?  Afterall, he believed we were 10 or 12 points a better side than France if we had been playing on neutral territory.  So I assume his point was that it would have been no hassles about what England might have put on Italy.  Ireland would only need to win against France by a point?  Italy would have been a good run out for players only getting familiar with Schmidt?

Hmmm..... but it wasn't neutral territory, was it?  And we weren't 10 or 12 points a better side.  And less than the 7 tries Ireland got against Italy (with Schmidt's familiar players) could quite possibly have been us once again coming oh so close yet with nothing to show for anything at the end.  

Would everyone have been happy that we had tried different things for the easy-win Italy game then?

Leamy is entitled to his views.  Though others are entitled to think he picked a nice time to talk of things Provincial at the same time that Ireland were trying to regain some respect in Europe.

There were moments that players might have been introduced.  Schmidt admitted that he'd planned to do so - but when the title became a realistic target early in the tournament, priorities necessarily changed.  He was the victim of his own success.  And he would have been crucified here had he given the Italy game to peripheral players and lost us our opportunity.

Nothing like a good conspiracy theory eh? Pity the ones on this thread so far have been far from good.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:But then Kearney has done a very good job for us. If Kearney had played badly, there might be some justification but he hasn't. He is probably the one guy I'd replace in the team but he deserves his medal, no doubt about it.

I would say he (Zebo) has a chance of featuring on the summer tour if he keeps working and improving. Trimble was out of the frame for a while, looked like he might be finished actually, but he put a lot of hard work in on the aspects of his game that were keeping him out of the team with the Ireland video analysts and seized his chance. What better example for Zebo?

To me Schmidt is using Zebo to put manners on everyone else - i.e., ''I'm not afraid to cut a high profile player like Zebo down to size. Do as I say or your out.''

How come you're still guessing on Zebo, Sin? You heard the rumours. I asked you to find out the truth. You have your methods and local gossips and stories to help you. How come you're still only guessing about Zebo? What do we actually know? "Do as I say?" Do what? What's the command that Zebo didn't obey? When we hear about these things we'll decide if Schmidt is too demanding or if Zebo is resisting the force like Skywalker

Schmidt and Darcy are on second captains tonight if anyones interested.

I love these Irish threads

Anytime you feel that (as a nation) your fans are a dysfunctional family, just tune into the Irish discussions.

It's a proper eye-opener and no mistake.

Golden wrote:Schmidt and Darcy are on second captains tonight if anyones interested.

No Munster players? Total bias there.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Golden wrote:Schmidt and Darcy are on second captains tonight if anyones interested.

No Munster players?  Total bias there.

  

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:But then Kearney has done a very good job for us. If Kearney had played badly, there might be some justification but he hasn't. He is probably the one guy I'd replace in the team but he deserves his medal, no doubt about it.

I would say he (Zebo) has a chance of featuring on the summer tour if he keeps working and improving. Trimble was out of the frame for a while, looked like he might be finished actually, but he put a lot of hard work in on the aspects of his game that were keeping him out of the team with the Ireland video analysts and seized his chance. What better example for Zebo?

To me Schmidt is using Zebo to put manners on everyone else - i.e., ''I'm not afraid to cut a high profile player like Zebo down to size. Do as I say or your out.''

How come you're still guessing on Zebo, Sin?  You heard the rumours. I asked you to find out the truth.  You have your methods and local gossips and stories to help you.  How come you're still only guessing about Zebo?  What do we actually know?  "Do as I say?"  Do what?  What's the command that Zebo didn't obey?  When we hear about these things we'll decide if Schmidt is too demanding or if Zebo is resisting the force like Skywalker

Its probably a personality clash, because I can't see what else it could be. (Penney has dismissed all the other charges flating around of lack of work ethic, not a team player, poor defence etc). Penney mentions the Tall Poppy Syndrome as being the problem.

Cyril wrote:I love these Irish threads

Anytime you feel that (as a nation) your fans are a dysfunctional family, just tune into the Irish discussions.

It's a proper eye-opener and no mistake.

Go back and tell the masses who don't frequent these pages. For they dost not know how tortured our souls are when we guff and wisecrack on yonder other threads

Golden wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Golden wrote:Schmidt and Darcy are on second captains tonight if anyones interested.

No Munster players?  Total bias there.

  

Barry Murphy might sneak in there (though he is retired Munster).

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:But then Kearney has done a very good job for us. If Kearney had played badly, there might be some justification but he hasn't. He is probably the one guy I'd replace in the team but he deserves his medal, no doubt about it.

I would say he (Zebo) has a chance of featuring on the summer tour if he keeps working and improving. Trimble was out of the frame for a while, looked like he might be finished actually, but he put a lot of hard work in on the aspects of his game that were keeping him out of the team with the Ireland video analysts and seized his chance. What better example for Zebo?

To me Schmidt is using Zebo to put manners on everyone else - i.e., ''I'm not afraid to cut a high profile player like Zebo down to size. Do as I say or your out.''

How come you're still guessing on Zebo, Sin?  You heard the rumours. I asked you to find out the truth.  You have your methods and local gossips and stories to help you.  How come you're still only guessing about Zebo?  What do we actually know?  "Do as I say?"  Do what?  What's the command that Zebo didn't obey?  When we hear about these things we'll decide if Schmidt is too demanding or if Zebo is resisting the force like Skywalker

Its probably a personality clash, because I can't see what else it could be. (Penney has dismissed all the other charges flating around of lack of work ethic, not a team player, poor defence etc). Penney mentions the Tall Poppy Syndrome as being the problem.

Source?

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote:I love these Irish threads

Anytime you feel that (as a nation) your fans are a dysfunctional family, just tune into the Irish discussions.

It's a proper eye-opener and no mistake.

Go back and tell the masses who don't frequent these pages.  For they dost not know how tortured our souls are when we guff and wisecrack on yonder other threads

as Notch said earlier (and I paraphrase) 'rather do it on this thread than muck up a proper rugby one'

Sin e, the master of the seas. I would miss him on these forums if he were to leave.

Did someone look for Sin to provide a source?????

You Rory? I'm disappointed in you.

We may start a new dedicated thread to Sin's oncoming sources!

  

The relevant piece:

Look, Zeebs is in a great space. He is a fantastic bloke and needs to be embraced for what he is.

“He’s not your quintessential rugby man, and you’d never want him to be. Zeebs is loving the football, and that’s all you ask of your players. No matter what jersey they put on, as long as they’re loving what they do, they’re going to get a performance, and if they get selected for the next team up, whatever that may be, on the back of loving the game and doing the right thing and the jerseys on the way up, that’s all you can ever ask.

“So for Zeebs, he understands that. He just loves being out on the footy field, he loves being at Thomond Park in front of the Munster crowd.

“They embrace him for who he is. He’s in good space, and there’s some challenges for him to get back in the Irish team, and he knows that. And the only thing he can do is perform outstandingly. He’s coming off a long injury that could potentially be very niggly. He’s done the right thing rehab wise, got himself in really good shape physically, returned at a time when the foot shouldn’t be an issue for him and now he’s just got to be consistent on and off the field to prove to other people that he’s ready to be an international footballer.”

The intimation from Penney is his larger than life personality, exemplified by his showy try celebrations, the latest of which came ins Saturday’s victory over Cardiff Blues, was in some way being seen as a negative.

“I think individuals should be allowed to express themselves. I’ve always said that and I think as soon as you start curbing an instinct that’s very pleasurable then you take away something special about the individual. I’d just hate to see that happen.

“We call it the tall poppy syndrome in New Zealand, where if someone sticks their head up they get it chopped off and I just think it’s so wrong for young men, it’s a tough enough life as it is, so if you’ve got someone out there embracing life and showing what life’s really about, for living, and Zeebs is doing what he does on the field then that should be embraced. I hate people being criticised for that sort of thing.

“If he’s getting advice,” Penney added, “that he should restrict that and it would enhance his international selection then he should heed that advice, but that’s up to him and the person who’s giving him that advice.”

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/penney-talks-up-zebo-but-remains-quiet-on-leaving-munster-258470.html

Sin é wrote:Kidney used the best players available from all Provinces in his first year to win the Grand Slam. He didn't fill the team with fringe players from Munster so even the more rabid Kidney out club had to hold their fire for a year as his teams kept winning.

What I'm saying though Sin is that I don't really get how the province a player plays for is relevant at all. It's irrelevant to me. The team is Ireland. The players were Irish. The provinces mean nothing when Ireland play. I never accused Kidney of provincial bias. I defended him against any of those accusations. I accused him of overseeing a painfully prolonged collapse in performance of the Irish team at a time when the provinces were better than ever, which made me suspect the players weren't that bad.

Since the days of my long winded anti-Kidney rants, which I'm sure you all loved reading; I've realized that maybe Gert Smal was even more to blame. Not because he played for those basterauds in Western Transvaal. But because I spent years watching Irish players injure themselves by repeatedly running straight into physically bigger men followed by kicking the ball away. At no point did I care in the slightest where in Ireland the Irish player was from.

I could even understand provincial infighting if Ireland were playing poorly and losing. I'm just amazed anyone could be complaining about where Irish players are from in Ireland, when Ireland have just won the 6 Nations? I argued for Zebo this year. But Dave Kearney did well. Do you not think Dave Kearney represents you? Just because he's from Louth? You are aware that it's an all Ireland team. And everyone from Coleraine to Clonakilty now supports the Champions.

The problem last 6Ns was the number of injuries Ireland had. Notice how reluctant Schmidt was to take Sexton off (and in fact only did it when he was carried off in a stretcher). He started Conor Murray against Italy even though he was puking his guts up and had to come off after 17 minutes.

I've yet to hear any of the Kidney Out Club admit that injuries were a major factor in the 6Nations last year.

And then you had that disgusting clock that people thought was great fun. Sorry, I'm not taking any lecture from anyone on provincial bias.

Feckless Rogue wrote:First of all I can't believe this discussion is even happening the week we won the title.

Best time to have it Feckless - we will all have forgotten all this stuff by next week when we can have a REAL row before Leinster v Munster ...  

I have heard a lot of mutterings about the provincial bias in the selections (not just from Munster; one or two Connacht supporters have been a bit upset that Marmion has had no game time in the last eight games that Ireland have played (including the AIs) and that two rather aged SHs have been preferred to him even when there was nothing at stake, even for example against Samoa.  I personally cannot fathom why Reddan and Boss are still there and if I were pushed to find a reason I would have to say that it has something to do with the colour of their club shirt.

[/quote] I can't understand the parochial provincial attitude at all. [/quote]

I don't know how old you are, Feckless, but you surely know that Irish people have an incomparable ability to maintain grudges, years after the cause for them has gone.  For heaven's sake, look at the difference between rugby in Ulster, Leinster, Cork and Limerick.  I am separating Cork and Limerick because Cork was not really that different from Leinster and Ulster - upper- and middle-class schools filled the ranks of rugby players.  In Limerick it was the dockers - the same tradition as you got in Wales where it was the miners (Ponty front row, anyone?).  One thing Kidney succeeded in, and I might suggest that this was part of the reason he had a reputation for sound man-management, was melding Cork and Limerick rugby men and traditions into a cohesive professional force which was not completely reliant on the chip-on-the-shoulder which was what had held them together in the amateur days.  You remember, Feckless, the days when Ireland teams were selected by five selectors - two from Ulster; two from Leinster and the fifth alternating from Munster and Connacht, so that it was believed in the Southern and Western provinces that you had to be twice as good as your Northern or Eastern brethren to get picked for Ireland.

Look at the Irish team now.  The provincialism is inevitable given that EVERY 50/50 call has gone to a Leinster player - not most, not many, but all.

[/quote]It's about how the squad of Irishmen play. When they play well and win a title a year after losing to Italy that's brilliant. What provinces people are from is completely irrellevent. It's international rugby.[/quote]

Yes it is international rugby.  Which province a player comes from or plays with shouldn't matter.  But ... when you hear of a player asking if they haven't been picked because their face doesn't fit; when an OH is told he is not being considered because in his last provincial game he twice passed the ball too high for the receiving player and twice kicked straight into touch - in a full eighty minutes, he makes four mistakes and is not in consideration because of those four mistakes, you have to think, hang on a minute.

I have just had a look at the IRFU site.  The backdrop wallpaper of the News page shows POC holding the trophy aloft after the presentation. He is surrounded by the rest of the squad in Paris.  Then the screen is filled with other photos accompanying the latest news items.  The photos show (from Left to right and top to bottom):  J Heaslip; BOD + trophy; The starting Front Row on Saturday + trophy; SFs in All-Ireland Women's Cup; 6Ns Round 5 review photo of squad + trophy in dressing room; Rabo Round 12 preview + photo of Munster players; Connacht injuries; Connacht schools cup final; Irish players shortlisted for Player of the 6Ns + photo of Heaslip, Sexton, Trimble + ANOther;  Connacht centre Tonetti retiring; Kearney Bros + trophy; Ulster news; Madigan 100th cap; Irish Coaches press conference; Munster v Treviso; BOD replacement; Schmidt; Tkts for JWC; Leibnster Schools; Clontarf v St Mary's.

The reason I have listed these is to point out that other than the wallpaper, there is no photograph of the winning captain with the trophy.  And bar Best with the two props none shows a player from anywhere other than Leinster with the trophy ... 

By the way Sin, Schmidt was just on Second Captains Live, saying he really sympathies's with the injuries Kidney had to endure; saying it was a nightmare for him and Schmidt himself was incredibly lucky in that regard.

Kia I see pictures of Irish lads in green jerseys smiling. But now that you've gone through where each of them is from I realize not even a single one is from Drogheda. Now I'm actually annoyed they won.  

Sin I don't think anyone denies the injury list seriously crippled Ireland last year but the style of play always encouraged it. I find it unbelievable that you seem to think we have gone backwards from the Kidney era. The guy is still a very good coach IMO but he wasn't suited to getting the best out of that team, the facts are we had some outstanding players back then: Healy, POC, SOB, Ferris, Wallace, Sexton, BOD and Bowe and quite simply mediocrity didn't cut it.

This year we don't have as many world class individuals but the team plays with far more cohesiveness and purpose. This is one of the most astonishing threads I have ever come across.

Sin é wrote:And then you had that disgusting clock that people thought was great fun. Sorry, I'm not taking any lecture from anyone on provincial bias.

Oh Sin, with this Ferrero Rocher you are really spoiling us. I'm so glad you are able to keep things in perspective. You are clearly mentally balanced and not in the slightest bit special. Please, please keep penetrating us all with your phallus of lunacy. Especially that Fly one. Couldn't watch him. He's a trollop for your chat. But be careful. I know where he's been. It aint pretty.

Personally this isn't in my top 5 of most disgusting clocks. But each to their own.

KiaRose wrote:

I have heard a lot of mutterings about the provincial bias in the selections (not just from Munster; one or two Connacht supporters have been a bit upset that Marmion has had no game time in the last eight games that Ireland have played (including the AIs) and that two rather aged SHs have been preferred to him even when there was nothing at stake, even for example against Samoa.  I personally cannot fathom why Reddan and Boss are still there and if I were pushed to find a reason I would have to say that it has something to do with the colour of their club shirt.

Did you see Marmion in the Wolfhounds game? He came on for Boss and the arse dropped out of the team, he was very poor. Boss on the other hand was very good. So when you have one 9 who plays well in a trial match and another who plays poorly why is it a surprise to anyone that the one who plays well is retained and the one who plays poorly is not!? The colour of their jerseys was the same that night and the one who did the most credit to the jersey continued on in it. Then you have Reddan who played so well against Italy- why would there be doubts over him again?

Tbf Kia, I used to very much respect your opinion on rugby matters but this provincial nonsense really undermines that- for the last 15 years Ulster have been had as little representation as Munster have now or less, and while obviously there is some grumbling most Ulster fans have just got on with supporting Ireland. Munster have had a massive representation for the last 15 years and now that they have less quality players around they don't anymore... and suddenly this is now an issue, this representation thing. It wasn't a problem when it was Ulster who were the third best province. Didn't hear about it then!

People are acting like this is some new unprecedented phenomenom with one province not being well represented. My response is... welcome to the other side of the tracks. Now you can either get behind your national team or sit and hope that Ireland will fail so you can say 'I told you so'. One will be much more rewarding than the other.

KiaRose wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:First of all I can't believe this discussion is even happening the week we won the title.

Best time to have it Feckless - we will all have forgotten all this stuff by next week when we can have a REAL row before Leinster v Munster ...  

I have heard a lot of mutterings about the provincial bias in the selections (not just from Munster; one or two Connacht supporters have been a bit upset that Marmion has had no game time in the last eight games that Ireland have played (including the AIs) and that two rather aged SHs have been preferred to him even when there was nothing at stake, even for example against Samoa.  I personally cannot fathom why Reddan and Boss are still there and if I were pushed to find a reason I would have to say that it has something to do with the colour of their club shirt.

I can't understand the parochial provincial attitude at all. [/quote]

I don't know how old you are, Feckless, but you surely know that Irish people have an incomparable ability to maintain grudges, years after the cause for them has gone.  For heaven's sake, look at the difference between rugby in Ulster, Leinster, Cork and Limerick.  I am separating Cork and Limerick because Cork was not really that different from Leinster and Ulster - upper- and middle-class schools filled the ranks of rugby players.  In Limerick it was the dockers - the same tradition as you got in Wales where it was the miners (Ponty front row, anyone?).  One thing Kidney succeeded in, and I might suggest that this was part of the reason he had a reputation for sound man-management, was melding Cork and Limerick rugby men and traditions into a cohesive professional force which was not completely reliant on the chip-on-the-shoulder which was what had held them together in the amateur days.  You remember, Feckless, the days when Ireland teams were selected by five selectors - two from Ulster; two from Leinster and the fifth alternating from Munster and Connacht, so that it was believed in the Southern and Western provinces that you had to be twice as good as your Northern or Eastern brethren to get picked for Ireland.

Look at the Irish team now.  The provincialism is inevitable given that EVERY 50/50 call has gone to a Leinster player - not most, not many, but all.

[/quote]It's about how the squad of Irishmen play. When they play well and win a title a year after losing to Italy that's brilliant. What provinces people are from is completely irrellevent. It's international rugby.[/quote]

Yes it is international rugby.  Which province a player comes from or plays with shouldn't matter.  But ... when you hear of a player asking if they haven't been picked because their face doesn't fit; when an OH is told he is not being considered because in his last provincial game he twice passed the ball too high for the receiving player and twice kicked straight into touch - in a full eighty minutes, he makes four mistakes and is not in consideration because of those four mistakes, you have to think, hang on a minute.

I have just had a look at the IRFU site.  The backdrop wallpaper of the News page shows POC holding the trophy aloft after the presentation.  He is surrounded by the rest of the squad in Paris.  Then the screen is filled with other photos accompanying the latest news items.  The photos show (from Left to right and top to bottom):  J Heaslip; BOD + trophy; The starting Front Row on Saturday + trophy; SFs in All-Ireland Women's Cup; 6Ns Round 5 review photo of squad + trophy in dressing room; Rabo Round 12 preview + photo of Munster players; Connacht injuries; Connacht schools cup final; Irish players shortlisted for Player of the 6Ns + photo of Heaslip, Sexton, Trimble + ANOther;  Connacht centre Tonetti retiring; Kearney Bros + trophy; Ulster news; Madigan 100th cap; Irish Coaches press conference; Munster v Treviso; BOD replacement; Schmidt; Tkts for JWC; Leibnster Schools; Clontarf v St Mary's.

The reason I have listed these is to point out that other than the wallpaper, there is no photograph of the winning captain with the trophy.  And bar Best with the two props none shows a player from anywhere other than Leinster with the trophy ... [/quote]

It is the first pic in 6 Nations Winners Portraits   

The 2009 trophy wasn't a Munster trophy and this 2014 one isn't a Leinster one.

I guess people have to grow up out of their insular selves and understand that the vast majority of people at the game and watching on TV made absolutely no distinction divided along Provincial lines.  Nobody felt they owned it more because they came from Dublin or Louth and nobody felt they owned it less because they came from Cork or Galway or Belfast.

It's an Irish victory and it's a beautiful feeling that makes you hanker for only more.  So let's lock and load as Irish people and let's go hunting into the Summer and the Autumn.  We got a WC squad to prepare and POC needs dropping because he's from Munster!

That's not POC, that's a decoy...  I can see where the hair is under that skullcap.  Looks suspiciously like Cronin with his curls hidden.

SecretFly wrote:

That's not POC, that's a decoy...  I can see where the hair is under that skullcap.  Looks suspiciously like Cronin with his curls hidden.

BOD in a POC suit!   

Seriously though, I don't like the way Rory Best got to hold the Cup for three straight pics one after the other.  I mean he hasn't even fully signed on for Leinster yet until the new 2014-2015 season.

theslosty wrote:Sin I don't think anyone denies the injury list seriously crippled Ireland last year but the style of play always encouraged it. I find it unbelievable that you seem to think we have gone backwards from the Kidney era. The guy is still a very good coach IMO but he wasn't suited to getting the best out of that team, the facts are we had some outstanding players back then: Healy, POC, SOB, Ferris, Wallace, Sexton, BOD and Bowe and quite simply mediocrity didn't cut it.

This year we don't have as many world class individuals but the team plays with far more cohesiveness and purpose. This is one of the most astonishing threads I have ever come across.

There were about 18 injuries I think. Not all of them happened on international duty either. POC was a long term back problem for instance - lots of stuff picked up in the Heineken Cup. Ferris also long term and from an injury he picked up playing for Ulster. Its not as if Leinster don't like their big ball carriers going up the middle, so its a bit rich blaming Kidney for all the injuries. By its very nature, International rugby is going to be a bit more physical.

SecretFly wrote:The 2009 trophy wasn't a Munster trophy and this 2014 one isn't a Leinster one.

I don't think anyone thought it was a Munster trophy - probably because there were a good mixture of players from all over the country involved. Off the top of my head.

Oh and Fly, you speaking for the whole nation now?

You are protesting too much.

Notch wrote:

KiaRose wrote:

I have heard a lot of mutterings about the provincial bias in the selections (not just from Munster; one or two Connacht supporters have been a bit upset that Marmion has had no game time in the last eight games that Ireland have played (including the AIs) and that two rather aged SHs have been preferred to him even when there was nothing at stake, even for example against Samoa.  I personally cannot fathom why Reddan and Boss are still there and if I were pushed to find a reason I would have to say that it has something to do with the colour of their club shirt.

Did you see Marmion in the Wolfhounds game? He came on for Boss and the arse dropped out of the team, he was very poor. Boss on the other hand was very good. So when you have one 9 who plays well in a trial match and another who plays poorly why is it a surprise to anyone that the one who plays well is retained and the one who plays poorly is not!? The colour of their jerseys was the same that night and the one who did the most credit to the jersey continued on in it. Then you have Reddan who played so well against Italy- why would there be doubts over him again?

Tbf Kia, I used to very much respect your opinion on rugby matters but this provincial nonsense really undermines that- for the last 15 years Ulster have been had as little representation as Munster have now or less, and while obviously there is some grumbling most Ulster fans have just got on with supporting Ireland. Munster have had a massive representation for the last 15 years and now that they have less quality players around they don't anymore... and suddenly this is now an issue, this representation thing. It wasn't a problem when it was Ulster who were the third best province. Didn't hear about it then!

People are acting like this is some new unprecedented phenomenom with one province not being well represented. My response is... welcome to the other side of the tracks. Now you can either get behind your national team or sit and hope that Ireland will fail so you can say 'I told you so'. One will be much more rewarding than the other.

Notch, you just don't get it do you. I'm not complaining about not having Munster representation on the team. I'm complaining how fringe Leinster players are getting selected ahead of first team starters for the other 3 provinces and the manner in which some of them has been treated by Schmidt.

I'm also really annoyed about how Zebo's reputation has been thrashed by many to defend Schmidt's selections.

By the way, Boss just sat on the bench and got 2 x 1 minute caps. If Kidney did that he would have to make a public apology for it.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The 2009 trophy wasn't a Munster trophy and this 2014 one isn't a Leinster one.

I don't think anyone thought it was a Munster trophy - probably because there were a good mixture of players from all over the country involved. Off the top of my head.

Oh and Fly, you speaking for the whole nation now?

You are protesting too much.

I'm having fun...as always, Sin.  Topics are fun....epecially the ultra serious ones that trip over their frowns and outrage - they're the best of all.  Nothing as funny as a frown that resists a smile.  
Speaking for the whole Nation?  As in identifying you as Irish?  Yeah.  I reckon I'm doing just that.

Leamy writing for a Munster audience gives them what they want to hear (shock!).

Schmidt in response from a wider Ireland perspective rises above the journos hunting for a story, and handles them perfectly (unheard of!). Hard not to admire the man.

Notch wrote: for the last 15 years Ulster have been had as little representation as Munster have now or less, and while obviously there is some grumbling most Ulster fans have just got on with supporting Ireland. Munster have had a massive representation for the last 15 years and now that they have less quality players around they don't anymore... and suddenly this is now an issue, this representation thing. It wasn't a problem when it was Ulster who were the third best province. Didn't hear about it then!

People are acting like this is some new unprecedented phenomenom with one province not being well represented. My response is... welcome to the other side of the tracks. Now you can either get behind your national team or sit and hope that Ireland will fail so you can say 'I told you so'. One will be much more rewarding than the other.

Notch, After Ulster won the HEC in 1999 you had a good run under Solomons. Things seemed to fall apart under McCall probably he wasn't ready at that point to be head coach. You know more about Ulster than I do, but Matt Williams did not do much to improve things. I would give Brian McLaughlin a great deal of credit for getting Ulster to the position they are in now.

Yes, I was disappointed with Marmion in the Wolfhounds game. Was he trying too hard? I don't know. Was he trying to play in a way which was unfamiliar to him? I don't know. I don't see as much of the Pro12 over here as you do. But I cannot believe that Boss and Reddan are the best we can offer as substitute SHs.

I didn't really expect to see huge changes in the Ireland team during the 6Ns. This is a major source of revenue for the IRFU and with three home games they needed to market it strongly to produce a good revenue result. The thing I was really disappointed in was the selections for the AIs. This year there was NOTHING riding on them (last year the seedings for the RWC were decided so that there was an imperative at work then and we managed to retain our top 6 ranking). We are years behind the other tier 1 nations in preparation for next year's RWC. We have 10 games between now and selecting the squad for that. This includes 2 against Argentina which will tell us what exactly given that Argentina are not exactly setting the world on fire at the moment? I am struggling to see how we get meaningful game time to produce depth in the squad for RWC15. This is really what the provincialism argument is about. The "fringe" players are all coming from one place. And this is part of the problem. Anyone who has had anything to do with Irish rugby must be aware of the history of inter-provincial rivalry. It is incumbent upon the national coach not to fuel those fires. Dave Kilcoyne has won 8 caps for Ireland and has spent most of this season back with Munster. It hasn't just been Munster fans who have been puzzled by the absence of Zebo. Non-Irish rugby fans have commented that it is well for us that we can leave talent like that out of the squad.

I am sure you could name check a few Ulster players that seem to have had a bit of a raw deal.

Posters on here have been going on about Schmidt's "work-ons". You would think this was something new and revolutionary in the coaching manual. Some years back when Martin Johnson and Declan Kidney were the internaitonal coaches, I happened to read interviews with two players - one Irish and one English. I can't remember who the Irish player was, he was a fringe player rather than a capped international but was making waves at provincial level. "So what do you have to do to get picked for Ireland?" the interviewer asked him. He was able to say exactly what it was that DK had told him to work on. I remember it, because in an English paper basically the same question was put to Danny Cipriani after he was dropped - how do you get back in to the England setip. "Well Martin Johnson told me to go away and improve my game" That was all. No clues what to improve, how to improve it, or what level of improvement was required. The two responses struck me because one (DK) was a proven coach the other (MJ) was not and it showed in this. There is an old Irish poem, Comhairle na Bardscolóige dá Mhac, (advice from a bard scholar to his son), about 8th or 9th century I think. Some of the advice includes what would be called "work-ons". Nothing new in such things. EVERY coach should be giving players that sort of advice.

I mentioned Paddy Jackson in my post, about his confidence. I have no idea how fragile it might be - you are better placed to make a comment on that. But from a Leinster fan on the old 606:

Jonathon Sexton (Leinster) was the Great White Hope last season. But he has just curled up and rolled over due to a severe lack of confidence in himself - this season. Completely different player to ROG – which is good. He varies his game to suit the opposition and has the full skill-set. His place kicking needs work. But even Dan Carter had that problem in the beginning. Look at him now. We have become far too predictable – I'm sure you will agree. Sexton has all the skills required – he is a game breaker. I still think he will replace ROG eventually. He needs more time and top class man-management. Kidney has brought that to the table - in the selection of his excellent coaching team.

What this fan* said Sexton required is exactly what was given him - time and space to become the player he now is at international level. And this is what concerns me. Why was Marmion been sent back to Connacht? Why not work with him and develop him? Give him the confidence to develop. If he is really not international standard then ok drop him, but after 3/4 of a game for the Wolfhounds is it fair to dismiss him? Where would be be if Sexton had been dismissed on the basis of his loss of form in 2009?

Are players who were part of the Ireland setup and have now found themselves dropped or otherwise excluded going to not bother about trying to get into the Ireland team? Highly unlikely, getting a cap would be the pinnacle of any player's career and I am sure they will try their best. But if you have to adapt to play a game which is totally unnatural to you, what would you do? Someone said that if the other Munster players played like POC, POM and Murray, they too would be selected. I repeat, what has Kilcoyne done wrong? He hasn't been given a chance. Lots of people have speculated that Zebo isn't being selected because he won't do the work JS has set him. That is pure speculation. Simple fact is we don't know why Joe won't pick him. Yet time and time again for Munster, Zebo has shown his worth, for example, in the kick chase part of the game. Do you remember that HEC game against Northampton when Zevbo scored his hat-trick? At restarts, Munster could kick really long BECAUSE Zebo had the pace to get up to the ball.

In the England game, Sexton's kicking was not top drawer. Why was the plan pursued when it wasn't working as well as it had done against Wales? Why was Murray not kicking? One aspect of Murray's game that has improved hugely over the past 18 months is his box-kicking, yet in the game against England he kicked 3 (yes three) time only; every other time he passed the ball (108 times!). This was obviously the game plan, but when it needed adjusting, why did nobody on the field take responsibility to do so? Against France it was 11 kicks, 54 passes and 7 runs by Murray.

There is a limit to how you can plan a game. No matter how much detail you go into, things happen which were not / could not be planned for. Wales fared poorly this year was not just because of post-Lios tiredness or injuries but also becasue the other teams had worked them out and they didn't / couldn't adjust away from the game plan. Is the same going to happen to Ireland? A few years ago, I remeber a lot of people complaining about over-coached teams and wishing for players to play heads-up rugby. Is Ireland heading down that route? Keith Wood on the Beeb site said
"Trimble has probably under-performed in an international jersey. He has never looked comfortable but he has been a revelation this season.
...
This is what Joe Schmidt wanted, players who would do what they were told ..."

I suspect this is why Zebo hasn't been and may not be picked for some time because he does things whch are not written in the script.

I am really pleased that we won the 6Ns. I am really pleased that we went to Paris and won there. Honest, I really am. I have NEVER before this year bothered about which province a player came from. So why this year? I am a little puzzled about it myself. I just feel that it isn't about JS picking Leinster players for any 50/50 shout. It is probably because I am unconvinced about the quality of some of those players, I really do not believe that some of them are international quality. Names? I will give you three. How about Felix Jones - was a very promising player until he broke his leg before RWC11 but now, I think sadly his time is gone even though he is relatively young; I know he didn't play but he kept being called up. Why?; Devin Toner - improved hugely over the tournament, but still not much more than a major distraction at the lineout, we have better locks; Dave Kearney - lacks pace for an international winger.

* The fan in question was Gibson. You will find it on this thread
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/F12444094?thread=6268895&show=50

A coach has the prerogative to pick whoever he wants, from which ever team he wants. Its his head on the block it the team loses.

All I would expect as a fan or player is that the team he selects:

a) performs well and wins when expected

b) that the selections are consistent

c) there are logical and concise explanations for why one player is selected over another - (with the mind that a coach shouldn't publically criticise individuals or give away in-house information that would be valuable to the opposition).

Has Schmidt done this? I'd say he has and to a much greater degree than any of his predecessors.

Why any coach would want to take on the Ireland job when there is gumph like this thrown around is beyond me. We are lucky to have coaches of this calibre and we won't have them very long if this is the reaction when we win.

Its fascinating how in the one breath Schmidt is being accused of not buliding squad depth while in another his selections of inexperienced or out of favour guys like Toner, Murphy, Kearney, Trimble etc. are being questioned because they arent from Cork or Limerick.

Ireland already have an abundance of depth. You could probably select two teams of capped players who didnt start at all in the six nations including 6 or 7 Lions.

Of the last 10 years front row has always been our area of less depth. Guess what Schmidt did in the six nations everybody? He used his backup front row in every match. Has that gone unnoticed?

It is obvious that during the summer tour and Nov internationals the next phase of depth buliding will happen with a focus on the centres and a possible rotation of back row and wings. Sexton will most likely get the summer off.

Is it any surprise that the people whinging about Schmidt are all from Munster? Coincidence? We just beat France in Paris and won the six nations FFS!!!!!!!

I think given that there is a decent argument that Munster are the best performing province this season I can understand why they wouldn't be happy with their representation.

I also think there is merit in this comment that 50/50 calls are going to Leinster.

However I think to attribute this to provincial bias is wide of the mark - picking a side is not just about picking the best individuals but the best units.

Therefore in a 50:50 call a coach is going to go with players who compliment each other and have a good understanding - that has perhaps benefitted D'arcy, McFadden and Dave Kearney - maybe McGrath and Jordi Murphy too. I don't think there is anything wrong with that if the individuals are delivering, which they are.

Another thing is Conor Murray was lucky to retain his starting spot given how well Reddan was playing so I really think there is no justification in the criticism coming from Munster.

People dont want rotation they just want to see Jimmy Joe Michael from down the road in the Ireland side because that gives them something to identify with.

GunsGerms wrote:People dont want rotation they just want to see Jimmy Joe Michael from down the road in the Ireland side because that gives them something to identify with.

Ive stayed out of this debate which is going nowhere fast really but Guns in fairness this is one your more accurate and insighful posts. Maybe its a bit sad and the wrong attitude to have but thats life.

We are lucky to have 3 provinces competing at all levels for the first time ever so at the end of the day there will be plenty of opportunity for players to prove themselves over the coming weeks.

KiaRose, a lot in that and difficult to summarise it or abridge it.

But overall you seem to be querying why, after only five months in practical charge, Schmidt hasn't given virtually everyone that anyone might mention who is of any note in all Provinces (including Marmion in Connacht) a go?

Five months - leading for most of a game against the All Blacks, three first half sizzling tries against them, destroying Wales without even working up a sweat by using boring big boots and a genuine sustained gameplan, giving highly confident Lancaster's England (a side that has already beaten the ABs) a scare at their own 'fortress' Twickenham - and beating France in France for only the second time in 15 years.

Five months and a Championship with 16 tries scored by a variety of players including subs and in a variety of ways....and you question why he hasn't widened the net yet, why he hasn't considered a quickly arriving WC?

I'd say he's been thinking of all this, that other people seem to think he's forgetting, long before he even took up the job.  And I mean LONG before - as in during last year's 6N itself and possibly before that.  

I think he had a very close eye on Ireland even before his name came up, and was wondering how he might have approached things differently.  He suddenly didn't turn up out of the blue when Kidney left.  He had been observing well before then and I'm sure he knew his name was on people's lips as a successor to Kidney well in advance of confirmation.

So - he gets asked in the post-6N interview, like he's some kind of reactionary idiot: "What about the loss of Brian O'Driscoll?  Have you given any thought to that yet?  Does the search start here?"  And how does Schmidt choose to answer it?  One of his nostrilly smirks of You think I'm an idiot? and then "Actually, I've been preparing for that from my first day in the job"

Where has this man done anything in the past that would have so many people now question his methods?  Do we think he needs help thinking through all his issues and problems?  We're all here to give him pointers?  A man who eats, sleeps and breathes detailed plotting'n'planning, and we feel he's probably missing a few tricks down the sensitive Provincial road that he might need help with?

He was employed by the IRFU to win things.  That's what his conditions of employment were.  The IRFU won't want excuses.  He has goals given to him not by himself but by his employers.  Win things and most especially get us further in the WC next time round.

Why is that WC demand more difficult now for him than most other top Nation sides?  Because he's not doing his job and testing enough?  No, because IRFU fluffed their business when they didn't hire him a year earlier so that he could have had a better run-in, like Lancaster and others have had.

His job is to win things and get us further than the QFs in the WC - a tough ask but that's what he'll be thinking about.  And he won't be thinking about offending players who perhaps feel they are more box-office than other journeyman players.  

Schmidt's demands aren't complex - work hard on the field....and work equally hard in training.  He keeps mentioning training and uses it a lot to praise players.  So - maybe that's the sticking point for players on the fringes. Who knows.

Kia surely the difference is that Jonathon Sexton was the second best player in his position- if not the best- and Marmion is not in the Top 3 in his position in Ireland. We can't include everyone regardless of form.

Isaac Boss and Eoin Reddan will both be 34 at RWC2015. There's really no reason to suppose that their age is an issue at that point, it certainly isn't an issue now. If anything their experience is most useful. After the RWC we will need to replace one or more likely both of them so if Marmion keeps working hard his chance will definitely come. People write off players far too early nowadays based on their age. If you're good enough, you're old enough cuts both ways. So long as Boss and Reddan keep themselves in top shape there will be no problem taking both players to the RWC. When it comes to the Rugby World Cup I want to see the best players on the pitch, whether they are 22 or 35.

Felix Jones- a Munster player- would have been involved in training when we need a specialist fullback for the 'opposition' but there is no real indication that he's been considered for the match day squad at any point. It seems Henshaw would be considered ahead of him, but Henshaw can't play fullback in training if he's also playing centre.

Devin Toner I would have agreed with you at that start of the season 100%, but only the most myopic of us could deny that he's had an unbelievable run of form in the green jersey. I think Donnacha Ryan and Dan Tuohy can be better than him but he's done exceptionally well so kudos to him and kudos to the coaching staff for getting a second row partnership to perform better than any we've had since 2009, including having the best lineout in the competition.

It seems like you object to game plans in general which is strange because they can be countered. Any tactic can be countered. For me, Schmidt is the coach I've been crying out for for years because I want to see forensic and obsessive attention to detail, I want to see players who are given confidence by the coaching staff because they know their role inside and out. After watching Ireland since the 2012 Six Nations where we used to go out and no-one really seemed to have any inkling of what they were meant to be doing at any given time it just puts a smile on my face to think about it. What I like about Schmidt is that he does introduce some variation into the game plan.

Only in Ireland could a coach dropping a player because there's someone better suited to the game plan be criticised for damaging someones confidence- this isn't mini rugby guys! Sure give everyone a go, no-ones keeping score. No! This is the elite level of professional rugby. People say "Oh, he'll have knocked Jacksons confidence by dropping him". Bull- shoite. Paddy Jackson is a remarkably strong willed young man. He's been through much more potentially confidence damaging situations and not let it affect him. A professional rugby player has to be able to deal with that because being able to deal with disappointment and come out stronger on the other side is in the job description. It is the job. If any player can't deal with the coach saying 'You need to do this, this and this to get selected. Work on that and you'll have a great chance but I'm going with someone else' or 'You're doing great and you're close to starting but I need a more versatile player on the bench to cover a few different positions" then... thats gonna stop them from being a top player. The top players are able to take those knocks and come back better and stronger.

It wasn't a perfect championship or a perfect season, but it was damn sure a big improvement and a rare championship so people carping over what they themselves admit are 50/50 calls really get my goat. It's not important who wears the jersey, it's important that we win and thats it.

Nice post Notch. I agree re Jackson, he has improved year on year despite being in and out of the Irish team. If anything he has benefitted from the experience rather than losing confidence. Sexton is probably our only indespensible player right now.

If Schmidt subbed him after 50/60 minutes v England and we still lost then he would have been criticised for subbing off probably our best player against our toughest opposition. Some people are just looking for holes where there arent really that many.