Englands Summer Tour of NZ - The rugby

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NZ tour squad

England squad flying on May 27 (30)
Props
Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (London Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Gray (Harlequins), Dave Ward (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Back rows
James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Fly halves
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)

Centres
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Wings
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Marland Yarde (London Irish)

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)

Prem Final - 31st May (Sarries v Saints)

England v Baa Baas - 1st June

New Zealand v England (First Test)- 7th June
New Zealand v England (Second Test) - 14th June
Crusaders v England - 17th June
New Zealand v England (Third Test) - 21st June.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10856780/England-were-right-to-snub-Steffon-Armitage-picking-him-would-risk-a-talent-exodus.html

I hate to agree with the Telegraph but it's really simple logic. You can't break a rule for just one person because it will be broken again and we will see our best players leave the country to detriment of the Clubs and England. Even if Armitage were good enough to start (and I maintain that he isn't, certainly not proven and that playing well behind Toulon's pack for a 7 is similar to the "armchair ride" we hear about halfbacks getting), is he good enough to risk our entire future for? The one country that has survived player exoduses in fantastic health and has the best set up around is New Zealand and there is a reason they have a no-overseas policy. The situation here isn't identical but it stands.

Farrell Jr - mentally and physically shot, he's not right in the head and body at the moment - needs to be given the summer break.

Billy - feel sorry for the poor guy - repeatedly used as the go to battering ram for Saracens because of a lack of ideas from the rest of the team. Scapegoat for what was poor decision making by his colleagues.

beshocked wrote:Farrell Jr - mentally and physically shot, he's not right in the head and body at the moment - needs to be given the summer break.

Billy - feel sorry for the poor guy - repeatedly used as the go to battering ram for Saracens because of a lack of ideas from the rest of the team. Scapegoat for what was poor decision making by his colleagues.

I thought Billy played admirably at the weekend. He constantly took the ball up and carried hard all day, but seemed to get turned over every time he ran. Surprisingly, he constantly looked isolated from the Saracens forwards, who were always a step behind and allowed Armitage to get over the ball. Tough, tough game for BV.

No one can blame Billy for looking so dejected after the game, but hat off to Wilkinson for trying to seek him out and commiserate him.

I suspect it'll be the case for all the players heavily involved with the Lions - this summer would probably be best used for a complete break from rugby. Particularly for players also involved in the business end of this season (i.e. Sarries, Saints, Leinster and Glasgow).

The criticism of Billy Vunipola's performance had me laughing. That he took it on the chin is a credit to him. I thought his ball carrying against Toulon was absolutely first class, and a monumental effort giving the power and quality of the traffic he was having to wade through. The rigidity (is that a word?) of the structure at Sarries is both a strength and a weakness, and criticising a player for making yards and busting tackles because he went "off script" is perverse. Yes, with Armitage it was clear that Toulon were setting a trap, but Brown, Burger et al needed to be up in support and better placed to support their ball carrier.

Back to England in the summer. It'll be a tough tour, but I'm pleased to see Cipriani back in England colours. He's a huge talent and I'd pick him over Stephen Myler every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Farrell, Ford, Cipriani and Burns is as strong a quartet of options as England have ever had at 10 in my lifetime.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I suspect it'll be the case for all the players heavily involved with the Lions - this summer would probably be best used for a complete break from rugby. Particularly for players also involved in the business end of this season (i.e. Sarries, Saints, Leinster and Glasgow).

The criticism of Billy Vunipola's performance had me laughing. That he took it on the chin is a credit to him. I thought his ball carrying against Toulon was absolutely first class, and a monumental effort giving the power and quality of the traffic he was having to wade through. The rigidity (is that a word?) of the structure at Sarries is both a strength and a weakness, and criticising a player for making yards and busting tackles because he went "off script" is perverse. Yes, with Armitage it was clear that Toulon were setting a trap, but Brown, Burger et al needed to be up in support and better placed to support their ball carrier.

Back to England in the summer. It'll be a tough tour, but I'm pleased to see Cipriani back in England colours. He's a huge talent and I'd pick him over Stephen Myler every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Farrell, Ford, Cipriani and Burns is as strong a quartet of options as England have ever had at 10 in my lifetime.

I was screaming that every time he carried. Granted they were only a few paces away a lot of the time, but Armitage was on fire over the ball, and impossible to move on Saturday.

Hopefully it won't dent BV's confidence too much.

So do we think LCD will make the bench in the first test?

How about a front v Crusaders of:

1 Alex Waller
2 Luke Cowan Dickie
3 Keiron Brookes

Is that too young? Is that throwing the lambs to the wolves?

Is Waller in the squad GF?

No mate but i thought the finalists players were added after the final, and i think Wallers performances this season could very well see him selected.

Totally agree, he's been excellent all year. I wasn't sure if he'd got a call up or not.

I'd have him ahead of Mullen personally.

Yeah i think the likes of Ashton, Farrell, Billy and Mako will be added after the final.

It'll be interesting to see if they select Waller and possibly Jamie George?

Jamie George wont be brought in unless Hartley is not fit enough.
 Additional players imo could be

 LH = Waller,
  H = Hartley (if fit)
 TH = Collier/Sinckler (Whoever performs the best in the baabaas)
 SR = Lawes
 BF = Wood
 OF = N/A (Would like Wallace but can't see it happening)
 N8 = Billy
 SH = Dickson
 FH = Faz (If Fit) Myler (if Faz isn't)
 IC = Barritt + Burrell
OC = Daly ? (Maybe depends on the baabaas
 W = Ashton or Roko
 FB = Foden

 Gives us 3 LH's, 5 Hookers, 4 TH's, 5 Locks, 5 Flankers, 2 N8's, 3 SH's, 3 FH's, 4 IC, 3 OC, 3 Wings, 3 FB's.

 Which considering Lancaster wont want to risk the 1XV in a midweek fixture, although 43 may be to big a squad I don't know.

Welly wrote:Jamie George wont be brought in unless Hartley is not fit enough.
 Additional players imo could be

 LH = Waller,
  H = Hartley (if fit)
 TH = Collier/Sinckler (Whoever performs the best in the baabaas)
 SR = Lawes
 BF = Wood
 OF = N/A (Would like Wallace but can't see it happening)
 N8 = Billy
 SH = Dickson
 FH = Faz (If Fit) Myler (if Faz isn't)
 IC = Barritt + Burrell
OC = Daly ? (Maybe depends on the baabaas
 W = Ashton or Roko
 FB = Foden

 Gives us 3 LH's, 5 Hookers, 4 TH's, 5 Locks, 5 Flankers, 2 N8's, 3 SH's, 3 FH's, 4 IC, 3 OC, 3 Wings, 3 FB's.

 Which considering Lancaster wont want to risk the 1XV in a midweek fixture, although 43 may be to big a squad I don't know.

I read in the Telegraph that after the final, a further 15 players will be added to the existing squad. Given that it's so specific regarding the numbers you can make a few assumptions:
Mako (though he's now injured), so possibly Waller
Billy
Farrell
Barritt
Ashton
Goode
Hartley
Lawes
Wood
Dickson
Myler
Burrell
Foden

So by my calculations, that leaves 2 spots open to promote players from the BaBaa's game-day squad. One I think will definitely be a LH since we appear light at the moment. The 2nd player maybe a winger?

Looks like Catt might be promoted.

https://twitter.com/robwebber2/status/471268262802894850/photo/1

 Hopefully Daly or Roko will be brought up.

 I personally can see one of the Quins TH being brought in.

Welly wrote:Looks like Catt might be promoted.

https://twitter.com/robwebber2/status/471268262802894850/photo/1

 Hopefully Daly or Roko will be brought up.

 I personally can see one of the Quins TH being brought in.

That is some top quality investigative journalism Welly!

I think you're right about Sinckler or Collier.

Either of Roko or Daly would be a good call up. Though I think Roko has a better chance, since we seem light on wingers? May, Ashton, Yarde...I think that's it? Brown, Foden, Goode, and Pennell at fullback.

Thank you had just popped on my twitter feed was surprised to see it but confirms Mako out imo.

  Lancaster isn't shy of having FB at wing at times, but I do think Roko has more of a chance to get into the XV than Daly does.

I don't have a problem acknowledging how good Steffon Armitage is while also thinking England are right to hold the line on giving priority to Aviva Premiership players.

One of his former teammates Nick Kennedy was on Talksport on Sunday, and he was asked by Gavin Mairs what Armitage has done to improve his game while he's been with Toulon. Kennedy's answer was "Nothing, he's always been that good".

Armitage does look better with world class players around him but it's also true that Toulon give him the scope to shine. I suspect one change in his game is that he now has more confidence in his own abilities, as more people have shown faith in him.

The Telegraph is saying that one of Collier and Sinckler will definitely fly out after the Baa Baas game.

There are also some interesting quotes from Lancaster saying that he will only pick players based outside England in case of injury - he seems to have ruled out selecting Armitage for this tour or the 2015 6N (in preference for developing England-based players) but is effectively saying he'd consider it picking him if he had injury worries immediately before the RWC itself. That's only a small comfort for Steffon, but I bet Nick Easter is happy to read that.

So what options do we have at 7?

Robshaw - England 1st choice

Can any of the Challengers make the grade?
Kvesic
Will Fraser
Luke Wallace
Will Welch
Andy Saull
Dave Seymour

Any ive missed?

Haskell and Johnson could do a job as could maybe wood or fearns.not top draw

GeordieFalcon wrote:Any ive missed?

I made a similar point and was told Tom Wood was a real option so we would be talking about who takes his place on the blindside. I remain unconvinced by that.

Haskell had a great game at 7 for Wasps against Stade, and he seems less of knob these days. He could certainly do a decent job if coupled with Wood at 6 and Launchbury at lock.

Rugbyfan,

It wouldnt be my idea either...it does open up all sorts of options...

His Saints back row partner...Callum Clark for example.
Matt Garvey
Fearns
Haskell
etc etc

Personally, I'd like to see a backrow of:

6. Haskell
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

Bench: Johnson or Kvesic

for the first test. Kveisc might not warrant his selection on the bench, but he covers all three backrow positions well, and carries with a bit more oomph than Johnson.

bluestonevedder wrote:Personally, I'd like to see a backrow of:

6. Haskell
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

Bench: Johnson or Kvesic

for the first test. Kveisc might not warrant his selection on the bench, but he covers all three backrow positions well, and carries with a bit more oomph than Johnson.

 Cant argue with that.

 Did someone just mention Clark,    how dare he.

    

Well i know he has had his moments...

But you cant argue he has played well, and offers a physical uncompromising option at 6. And possibly a reasonable lineout option aswell.

And lets be honest...if Lancaster had to put his perfect player profile in to a computer....it would bring out Launchbury, Lawes, Clark and Wood.

This time last year I was worried kearnan myall was the template for perfect player profile

GeordieFalcon wrote:So do we think LCD will make the bench in the first test?

I can't see LCD making the first Test. I'm surprised Gray has been taken given the fact I don't think he's even appeared on the bench for Harlequins for eons. Having said that, Joe Gray has excellent basic skills for a hooker. If we're looking at a pack of:

1. J Marler
2. D Ward
3. D Wilson
4. J Launchbury
5. D Attwood
6. J Haskell
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan

Then having Joe Gray as 16 makes a lot of sense. Accepting Webber is unlikely to train and Hartley out altogether, having someone on the bench who's throwing is accurate and tackle success rate very high to replace Ward if he goes off-beam is a good ploy. If you put LCD in there who also hasn't resolved his throwing technique it could be frying pan to fire time.

My suggested backrow for the first test would be: -

Slater
Morgan
Robshaw

Just think we should be a bit physical in the first test and not lie down and roll-over. We could then adjust for the second but at least try to put some pressure on New Zealand. Maybe play differently in the second as well.

I was also a bit surpised that Fearns was not in any of the squads. Also like to see Watson in the squad if fit.

regards

CB

sickofwendy wrote:This time last year I was worried kearnan myall was the template for perfect player profile

  

I dont think you'll see Slater on the flank. Not when the likes of Robshaw, Haskell, Johnson and Kvesic is in the squad

cb wrote:My suggested backrow for the first test would be: -

Slater
Morgan
Robshaw

Just think we should be a bit physical in the first test and not lie down and roll-over.  We could then adjust for the second but at least try to put some pressure on New Zealand.  Maybe play differently in the second as well.

I was also a bit surpised that Fearns was not in any of the squads.  Also like to see Watson in the squad if fit.

regards

CB

I was likewise surprised about Fearns not featuring at all. Astounded even. Perhaps like Croft et al they want to give him a proper pre-season?

I don't think playing Slater at BS in a Test against New Zealand is a remotely good idea. Yes he's been excellent in the SR for Tigers but playing at BS in a Test match is a very different thing, as Courtney Lawes proved. Slater just doesn't have the pace to the breakdown required of the way England play with Woodshaw and that is most definitely the template. Our play revolves around the work-rate of those two and Launchbury in the SR.

Garvey is getting there as a more physical option but with a high work-rate, as is Fearns. Having Haskell in at 6 certainly doesn't sacrifice anything in the way of physicality and if anything improves the carrying options whilst maintaining work-rate.

If we really wanted to go for a fat-pack it would have to be: 4. E Slater 5. D Attwood 6. J Launchbury - that could work as a unit. Besides it's not overwhelming physicality which trumps the ABs it's execution.

Chjw131 wrote:Besides it's not overwhelming physicality which trumps the ABs it's execution.

Absolutely 100%. The closest side to beating the ABs last season was the Irish, and the technique from Ireland at the breakdown in the first half was almost flawless. The timing and body positions hitting the rucks was superb, as well as knowing when to commit and when not to commit. The speed of play completely took the All Blacks by surprise in that first half.

England managed something similar winning at Twickenham the previous year. It was all about execution at the breakdown and speed of possession. Players like Launchbury and Wood are not the biggest in their position, but they are quick and fit, and work tirelessly to ensure quality quick ball.

England should not sacrifice speed and technique just to have the bigger pack. It's extremely rare that the All Blacks get beaten in a arm wrestle. Even the great and enormous South African sides struggled to do that. The All Blacks have a supreme ability to absorb such pressure and counter-attack, and when the All Blacks have momentum and are playing at pace, the last thing you need is a cumbersome pack.

I dont think its Lancasters way to play a cumbersome pack.

He seems to have his player template...Launchbury, Wood, Lawes, Calum Clark (like him or not)...

6'4-6-7,
17.5 - 19 stone,
Lean, athletic, pacy but powerful at the same time.
Comfortable in all facets of the game. Second row and flankers are almost the same role under Lancaster.

Its possibly why Garvey has been overlooked for so long.

Looking at first test it now feels the fitness of Webber and Twelvetrees could have a huge bearing on how the side looks.

If Webber gets fit he provides us with another very physical presence around the park and excellent work at the breakdown (key against NZ), however most importantly would offer some set piece solidity. He's strong in the scrum and at the line-out whilst not faultless is more reliable than Ward. It would also give us the club axis of Webber throwing and Attwood calling which as we saw with Hartley and Lawes in the 6N can be a huge bonus.

I accept Twelvtrees isn't everyone's favourite player but with Farrell and Ford out his work as a first receiver would take a lot of pressure of the shoulders of Burns or Cipriani at 10. He also offers a huge boot for clearing our line when under pressure. An additional option which could ease the kicking burden on our half backs considerably.

Yeh I was right Catt to NZ

Surprised balmain called up for baabaas he has great potential.

Have to say our potential depht at TH in the next 4/5 could be huge.

Very impressed with our front row depth,although some are raw and unproven.not too long ago we wouldn't even have had 6 EQ hookers or props in the jeff.in 2009 Duncan bell was our only option
Good times

Quote from Haskell
"Playing NZ is just the same as any other team-is just appears the stakes are a bit bigger,not getting fooled by the magic of the all blacks is probably the key"

Regardless of who is selected, starting or from the bench, they must be fit. We absolutely cannot be carrying anyone be that 36 or Webber or whoever.

This series is all about performance and opportunity, if we achieve at these then we will have had a successful tour.

If anyone expects a scoreboard win to be a measure of success then I think they need to adjust their perspective. We are massively disadvantaged across all the key factors; seasonal fatigue, injury, availability, experience and home advantage/crowd.

There are realistic positives that can be taken from this incredible opportunity.

Welly wrote:Yeh I was right Catt to NZ

Surprised balmain called up for baabaas he has great potential.

Have to say our potential depht at TH in the  next 4/5 could be huge.

Though i assume the Baltrain is covering LH for this game.

Pretty excited about the tour either way now.

What will the weather be like in NZ? I guess it's their winter so very windy and wet?

Oh and if anyone watched the SR on the weekend, NZ teams are looking omminusly good. Disgusting amount of talent in their backlines once you get past 9.

Front row and scrum half are the only weaknesses to my mind, target them there and hope for the best. Pressure the 9, make every breakdown a mess, get as many scrums as possible and play it the England way!   

yappysnap wrote:Pretty excited about the tour either way now.

What will the weather be like in NZ? I guess it's their winter so very windy and wet?

Oh and if anyone watched the SR on the weekend, NZ teams are looking omminusly good. Disgusting amount of talent in their backlines once you get past 9.

Front row and scrum half are the only weaknesses to my mind, target them there and hope for the best. Pressure the 9, make every breakdown a mess, get as many scrums as possible and play it the England way!   

The second test is in Dunedin under cover so there will be at least one dry test but generally that's the worst time of the year here bar probably July.

9 weak? Aaron Smith is possibly the best 9 in the world today (maybe we're wrong?) and is in peak form so if you're relying on that then good luck with that.

I'm hoping to see Tuilagi face Malakai Fekitoa at least once in this series. He'd be our fastest on the rise this year along with the returning Kaino.

Balmain getting a call up is nice to see. He's a young prop that's been working hard on his technique and can cover both sides. Big unit that gets stuck in in defence and attack. Tigers decided he was a better prospect than Brookes. Brookes and Balmain will certainly offer plenty of weight to our front row.

Hoping to see a Slater/Launchbury combination in the first test. The Hask/Robshaw/Morgan to give us some bulk on the back row and we'll be Ok. Just the front row that worries me. Catt is hardly the kind of loose head to worry an AP side let alone the ABs. Need Marler to be fit and put a shift in there.

Tigers decided he was a better prospect than Brookes

Its ok Sam, we're fixing him again after the Tigers broke him   

In fact England should be thanking the Falcons for producing so many Tight heads   

Tigers are certainly thankful you decided not to offer Balmain a place in the academy. Brookes was lazy and spent most of his time in Nandos whilst in Leicester. It's good Richards and Wells have given him the kick up the back side he needed.

He's been banned from Nandos and been put on serious conditioning programmes. Looking all the better for it.

He'll be first choice without question next season.

All the better for England though having all these lads beginning to come through at their respective clubs.

Taylorman wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Pretty excited about the tour either way now.

What will the weather be like in NZ? I guess it's their winter so very windy and wet?

Oh and if anyone watched the SR on the weekend, NZ teams are looking omminusly good. Disgusting amount of talent in their backlines once you get past 9.

Front row and scrum half are the only weaknesses to my mind, target them there and hope for the best. Pressure the 9, make every breakdown a mess, get as many scrums as possible and play it the England way!   

The second test is in Dunedin under cover so there will be at least one dry test but generally that's the worst time of the year here bar probably July.

9 weak? Aaron Smith is possibly the best 9 in the world today (maybe we're wrong?) and is in peak form so if you're relying on that then good luck with that.

I'm hoping to see Tuilagi face Malakai Fekitoa at least once in this series. He'd be our fastest on the rise this year along with the returning Kaino.

Cheers for the info Tman, is it an artificial pitch in Dunedin as well?

I guess I mean comparatively weak! Aaron Smith is a talent but he still lets his head drop at times when he's got at, and his basics of passing and kicking aren't as good as they could be. He's deadly with the ball and has great vision, but still the weak link in the backs.

Do you think that massive Crusaders wing will get a call up as well? Him and Savea would be pretty potent out wide.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Brookes was lazy and spent most of his time in Nandos whilst in Leicester.

Blimey! How much Nandos do you need to eat to get as big as he got?! It's only chicken!!      

yappysnap wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Brookes was lazy and spent most of his time in Nandos whilst in Leicester.

Blimey! How much Nandos do you need to eat to get as big as he got?! It's only chicken!!      

 You havn't eaten much from nandos have you.  

formerly known as Sam wrote:Balmain getting a call up is nice to see. He's a young prop that's been working hard on his technique and can cover both sides. Big unit that gets stuck in in defence and attack. Tigers decided he was a better prospect than Brookes. Brookes and Balmain will certainly offer plenty of weight to our front row.

Hoping to see a Slater/Launchbury combination in the first test. The Hask/Robshaw/Morgan to give us some bulk on the back row and we'll be Ok. Just the front row that worries me. Catt is hardly the kind of loose head to worry an AP side let alone the ABs. Need Marler to be fit and put a shift in there.

I was thinking Mullan will be on the bench for the tests now Mako is out. Catt to run out against the Crusaders.