Englands Summer Tour of NZ - The rugby

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NZ tour squad

England squad flying on May 27 (30)
Props
Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (London Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Gray (Harlequins), Dave Ward (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Back rows
James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Fly halves
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)

Centres
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Wings
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Marland Yarde (London Irish)

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)

Prem Final - 31st May (Sarries v Saints)

England v Baa Baas - 1st June

New Zealand v England (First Test)- 7th June
New Zealand v England (Second Test) - 14th June
Crusaders v England - 17th June
New Zealand v England (Third Test) - 21st June.

Is Marler a doubt?

bluestonevedder wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Balmain getting a call up is nice to see. He's a young prop that's been working hard on his technique and can cover both sides. Big unit that gets stuck in in defence and attack. Tigers decided he was a better prospect than Brookes. Brookes and Balmain will certainly offer plenty of weight to our front row.

Hoping to see a Slater/Launchbury combination in the first test. The Hask/Robshaw/Morgan to give us some bulk on the back row and we'll be Ok. Just the front row that worries me. Catt is hardly the kind of loose head to worry an AP side let alone the ABs. Need Marler to be fit and put a shift in there.

I was thinking Mullan will be on the bench for the tests now Mako is out. Catt to run out against the Crusaders.

Sorry Sam, just seen the news regarding Marler. Probable that Catt might get a run out against NZ if Mullan is forced to start!

yappysnap wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Pretty excited about the tour either way now.

What will the weather be like in NZ? I guess it's their winter so very windy and wet?

Oh and if anyone watched the SR on the weekend, NZ teams are looking omminusly good. Disgusting amount of talent in their backlines once you get past 9.

Front row and scrum half are the only weaknesses to my mind, target them there and hope for the best. Pressure the 9, make every breakdown a mess, get as many scrums as possible and play it the England way!   

The second test is in Dunedin under cover so there will be at least one dry test but generally that's the worst time of the year here bar probably July.

9 weak? Aaron Smith is possibly the best 9 in the world today (maybe we're wrong?) and is in peak form so if you're relying on that then good luck with that.

I'm hoping to see Tuilagi face Malakai Fekitoa at least once in this series. He'd be our fastest on the rise this year along with the returning Kaino.

Cheers for the info Tman, is it an artificial pitch in Dunedin as well?

I guess I mean comparatively weak! Aaron Smith is a talent but he still lets his head drop at times when he's got at, and his basics of passing and kicking aren't as good as they could be. He's deadly with the ball and has great vision, but still the weak link in the backs.

Do you think that massive Crusaders wing will get a call up as well? Him and Savea would be pretty potent out wide.

Nadolo? No I don't think he's in the picture for NZ. Don't even know if he's eligible. But the wings will be Savea and one of Jane or Ben Smith if Dagg is selected.

Re Aaron Smith you must be looking at a different Smith than I am. His box kicking has been one of the AB weapons of the last year and his passing is by far the strongest of any 9 we've had since.. probably Bachop or even Chris Laidlaw and thats going back a while. Hes been in stunning form sxv this year- he got caught a couple of times by a very envious Perenara a game or two back but he's got his own running game going strongly now, so with with respect, I believe Smith is going to be a major weapon against England, possibly one of a few but he's the top 9 here by some distance.

I wonder if their having second thoughts about Corbisiero, especially if he plays/starts this saturday.

Sinckler and Corbisiero would be a real boost to our depleted front row.

The last thing Corbisiero needs is a tour to NZ. The coaches and himself need to make the decision to best ensure his long term fitness not a quick fix.

Welly wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Brookes was lazy and spent most of his time in Nandos whilst in Leicester.

Blimey! How much Nandos do you need to eat to get as big as he got?! It's only chicken!!      

 You havn't eaten much from nandos have you.  

And he ate ALOT!!!!   

Taylorman wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Pretty excited about the tour either way now.

What will the weather be like in NZ? I guess it's their winter so very windy and wet?

Oh and if anyone watched the SR on the weekend, NZ teams are looking omminusly good. Disgusting amount of talent in their backlines once you get past 9.

Front row and scrum half are the only weaknesses to my mind, target them there and hope for the best. Pressure the 9, make every breakdown a mess, get as many scrums as possible and play it the England way!   

The second test is in Dunedin under cover so there will be at least one dry test but generally that's the worst time of the year here bar probably July.

9 weak? Aaron Smith is possibly the best 9 in the world today (maybe we're wrong?) and is in peak form so if you're relying on that then good luck with that.

I'm hoping to see Tuilagi face Malakai Fekitoa at least once in this series. He'd be our fastest on the rise this year along with the returning Kaino.

Cheers for the info Tman, is it an artificial pitch in Dunedin as well?

I guess I mean comparatively weak! Aaron Smith is a talent but he still lets his head drop at times when he's got at, and his basics of passing and kicking aren't as good as they could be. He's deadly with the ball and has great vision, but still the weak link in the backs.

Do you think that massive Crusaders wing will get a call up as well? Him and Savea would be pretty potent out wide.

Nadolo? No I don't think he's in the picture for NZ. Don't even know if he's eligible. But the wings will be Savea and one of Jane or Ben Smith if Dagg is selected.

Re Aaron Smith you must be looking at a different Smith than I am. His box kicking has been one of the AB weapons of the last year and his passing is by far the strongest of any 9 we've had since.. probably Bachop or even Chris Laidlaw and thats going back a while. Hes been in stunning form sxv this year- he got caught a couple of times by a very envious Perenara a game or two back but he's got his own running game going strongly now, so with with respect, I believe Smith is going to be a major weapon against England, possibly one of a few but he's the top 9 here by some distance.

Might have got mixed up there and be thinking of Perenara...

GeordieFalcon wrote:
And he ate ALOT!!!!   

  

 To be fair injury cost him any chance it could have worken out but injury meant he never got a chance to show his potential, so no wonder he got bored and spent his times at Nandos.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The last thing Corbisiero needs is a tour to NZ. The coaches and himself need to make the decision to best ensure his long term fitness not a quick fix.

Agreed, however if we're starting Mullan T1, who to be fair has been 2nd choice at Wasps for most of the season, well you have to agree that its all a bit of a farce - no disrespect to MM who I'm sure will relish the opportunity.

Also OT a bit November test on o2 priority tickets are up now. against the big 3 the tickets are £90ish although you can get the NZ tickets @ £57.80, just ordered 3 adult and 1 kid for the Samoan game at 327.80 per adult ticket and £10.80 a kid good value I thought.

Welly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:
And he ate ALOT!!!!   

  

 To be fair injury cost him any chance it could have worken out but injury meant he never got a chance to show his potential, so no wonder he got bored and spent his times at Nandos.

Yeah your right, he was very unlucky with injuries. He's actually being managed carefully by Dean this season...not playing every game etc.
He's looked better for it.

On the Armitage question again:
Interesting article...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10856780/England-were-right-to-snub-Steffon-Armitage-picking-him-would-risk-a-talent-exodus.html

kingelderfield wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The last thing Corbisiero needs is a tour to NZ. The coaches and himself need to make the decision to best ensure his long term fitness not a quick fix.

Agreed, however if we're starting Mullan T1, who to be fair has been 2nd choice at Wasps for most of the season, well you have to agree that its all a bit of a farce - no disrespect to MM who I'm sure will relish the opportunity.

I'd rather that than risk Corbs long term future. Obviously the medical teams should have the players welfare at the top of their to do list but if there's any question or risk Mullan should surely start.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The last thing Corbisiero needs is a tour to NZ. The coaches and himself need to make the decision to best ensure his long term fitness not a quick fix.

Agreed, however if we're starting Mullan T1, who to be fair has been 2nd choice at Wasps for most of the season, well you have to agree that its all a bit of a farce - no disrespect to MM who I'm sure will relish the opportunity.

I'd rather that than risk Corbs long term future. Obviously the medical teams should have the players welfare at the top of their to do list but if there's any question or risk Mullan should surely start.

I guess those are the breaks.

I do remember something similar happening when Duncan Bell featured and I suppose you can quote the AB's 10 issues during the last WC, so its not just something that happens to us.

Marler will be fit

Mullan will be on the bench for the 1st test. BUt for the second i would think Alex Waller will be on his way to NZ.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Welly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:
And he ate ALOT!!!!   

  

 To be fair injury cost him any chance it could have worken out but injury meant he never got a chance to show his potential, so no wonder he got bored and spent his times at Nandos.

Yeah your right, he was very unlucky with injuries. He's actually being managed carefully by Dean this season...not playing every game etc.
He's looked better for it.

On the Armitage question again:
Interesting article...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10856780/England-were-right-to-snub-Steffon-Armitage-picking-him-would-risk-a-talent-exodus.html

sorry Georgie but thats rubbish.

it's the same kind of point that celtic fans were making about changes to the Heineken Cup heralding the end of professional rugby outside of England and France. narrow-minded journalistic doom-mongering.

Ah i dont think its totally rubbish.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Marler will be fit

Hope so CJ, I wouldn't feel too confident about Catt or Mullen

yappysnap wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Pretty excited about the tour either way now.

What will the weather be like in NZ? I guess it's their winter so very windy and wet?

Oh and if anyone watched the SR on the weekend, NZ teams are looking omminusly good. Disgusting amount of talent in their backlines once you get past 9.

Front row and scrum half are the only weaknesses to my mind, target them there and hope for the best. Pressure the 9, make every breakdown a mess, get as many scrums as possible and play it the England way!   

The second test is in Dunedin under cover so there will be at least one dry test but generally that's the worst time of the year here bar probably July.

9 weak? Aaron Smith is possibly the best 9 in the world today (maybe we're wrong?) and is in peak form so if you're relying on that then good luck with that.

I'm hoping to see Tuilagi face Malakai Fekitoa at least once in this series. He'd be our fastest on the rise this year along with the returning Kaino.

Cheers for the info Tman, is it an artificial pitch in Dunedin as well?

I guess I mean comparatively weak! Aaron Smith is a talent but he still lets his head drop at times when he's got at, and his basics of passing and kicking aren't as good as they could be. He's deadly with the ball and has great vision, but still the weak link in the backs.

Do you think that massive Crusaders wing will get a call up as well? Him and Savea would be pretty potent out wide.

Nadolo? No I don't think he's in the picture for NZ. Don't even know if he's eligible. But the wings will be Savea and one of Jane or Ben Smith if Dagg is selected.

Re Aaron Smith you must be looking at a different Smith than I am. His box kicking has been one of the AB weapons of the last year and his passing is by far the strongest of any 9 we've had since.. probably Bachop or even Chris Laidlaw and thats going back a while. Hes been in stunning form sxv this year- he got caught a couple of times by a very envious Perenara a game or two back but he's got his own running game going strongly now, so with with respect, I believe Smith is going to be a major weapon against England, possibly one of a few but he's the top 9 here by some distance.

Might have got mixed up there and be thinking of Perenara...

perhaps...yes Perenaras not delivered what he originally promised. A bit lippy, always in a rush (not always in a good way) where Aaron Smith's just developed nicely. He's going to be a handful this year if he keeps going the way he is.

If its Read, Kaino and McCaw, Smith and Barrett, there could be a considerable flow of quality ball to the outsides where the fun usually starts. We certainly can't complain about the options or form of the likely side.

A comment from another site:
"The Highlanders’ All Blacks were also in fine form. Ben Smith is simply a superb footballer who makes good things happen, while Aaron Smith gave a master-class in halfback passing; fast, long and accurate, off both hands, right to the 80th minute. Anyone who hasn’t seen the match should check it out for this alone."

The Highlanders Saders match was probably the best in NZ this year, certainly of the local derbys.

I have been banging on about SA for months. Predicted he would easily win the ERC PoTY too

He is just too good to be ignored. AND he offers something very different. AND he covers 6,7,8 all at world class level. AND he is brimming with confidence and really plays to his strengths.

How many players in WORLD rugby could turnover Billy V 4 or 5 times in a match? None. possibly O'Brien. Those turnovers scored key penalties and relieved key pressure. If England genuinely dont think that his very differentiated skillset adds anything to their chances of RWC2015 victory then i am a strawberry milkshake!

And please can i not read any more posts about SA having received an armchair ride? i think he won MoM in 3 of his last 4 HC matches. It must have been a very turbo-charged armchair. If SA manages to pick when to intervene and effectively turnover the ball or force a penalty to be conceded, i would argue that is 10 times as valuable as running the most metres on the pitch and making the most tackles and running yourself into the ground. Rugby is all about key decisions and changes in possession at critical moments. SA delivers by this measure like no-one else in world rugby.

To exclude him from RWC2015 is dumb. If England do not win, SL will be absolutely SLATED after the competition for not having tried something different and brought in SA. Guarantee it. Billy V is big and strong, but he is very, very predictable. His rugby brain and maturity are very far from where they need to be to put any fear into the likes of NZ or South Africa. Steffon Armitage highlighted Billy V's vulnerabilities extremely publicly last weekend.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah i dont think its totally rubbish.

i know. and i completely respect your opinion.

i would happily see any rule broken if it got us a better shot at winning RWC2015. let's change the rule to "no foreign based players apart from Steffon Armitage"

He could come play in the premiership if he was really bothered about his international chances.

I thought originally the overseas 'rule' had a proviso that in special cases it would be ok to select form abroad, eg for wilko. If that still applies then I'd say SA is a special case:

he's a regular fixture for the best team in Europe,
he regularly gets mom,
he's just won the HK,
he's just won the ERC POY,
he plays in a position where we haven't many in-form classic 7s,
he's a versatile BR (something SL lurves as he thinks all BR players are the same ),
his only real test-quality competition at 7 is Robshaw,
we going on a tour to NZ where a fair number of players aren't available,
and we're approaching a RWC where a team that is a serious contender to win needs a couple of top quality players in each position (which at 7 is a bit of a weakness for England at the moment).

Still never mind eh

he's also going to win the top14 PoTY too
and he is very much a team-player, from all his gracious statements and from everything his team-mates say about him (i only mention that because it is a criticism that is often levelled at him by some)
and he is THE most effective closer out of games in world rugby at the moment, because when teams get tired and big ball carriers get isolated, he wins either possession or a penalty, every time. That is a huge weapon to have on the pitch, or even on the bench for the last 20...have bill v run over everyone in the first 55, then SA nick the ball when the oppo is tired....just an idea.

Kitchenor to captain England against baa baas

England XV to face Barbarians at Twickenham on Sunday, June 1 (kick-off 3pm)
15 Elliot Daly (London Wasps)
14 Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
12 Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs)
11 Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby)
10 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
9 Joe Simpson (London Wasps)

1 Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks)
2 Rob Buchanan (Harlequins)
3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
4 Michael Paterson (Sale Sharks)
5 Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers, captain)
6 Jamie Gibson (Leicester Tigers)
7 Luke Wallace (Harlequins)
8 Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs)

Replacements

16 Tommy Taylor (Sale Sharks)
17 Fraser Balmain (Leicester Tigers)
18 Will Collier (Harlequins)
19 Charlie Matthews (Harlequins)
20 James Gaskell (Sale Sharks)
21 Dan Robson (Gloucester Rugby)
22 Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby)
23 Rob Miller (Sale Sharks)

Chuffed to bits for all the Quins boys, just hope they can do themselves proud this Sunday.

Has Ward already flown out with the squad? Or was he just not picked?

The backs chosen will definitely live up to the Baabaa's ethos, all of them are definitely attack first options, defence could be pretty ropey!

Please let it be sunny!

Wonder if then Kitchener is the next on the list if a second row gets injuryed. ability I would have him ahead of Slater, Parling and Attwood but experience is the main issue at the moment, Also Attwood and Slater are more of the bulk players.

 Think in the next 2 seasons Kitchener will put huge pressure on Launch and Lawes.

quinsforever wrote:I have been banging on about SA for months. Predicted he would easily win the ERC PoTY too

He is just too good to be ignored. AND he offers something very different. AND he covers 6,7,8 all at world class level. AND he is brimming with confidence and really plays to his strengths.

How many players in WORLD rugby could turnover Billy V 4 or 5 times in a match? None. possibly O'Brien. Those turnovers scored key penalties and relieved key pressure.  If England genuinely dont think that his very differentiated skillset adds anything to their chances of RWC2015 victory then i am a strawberry milkshake!

And please can i not read any more posts about SA having received an armchair ride? i think he won MoM in 3 of his last 4 HC matches. It must have been a very turbo-charged armchair. If SA manages to pick when to intervene and effectively turnover the ball or force a penalty to be conceded, i would argue that is 10 times as valuable as running the most metres on the pitch and making the most tackles and running yourself into the ground. Rugby is all about key decisions and changes in possession at critical moments. SA delivers by this measure like no-one else in world rugby.

To exclude him from RWC2015 is dumb. If England do not win, SL will be absolutely SLATED after the competition for not having tried something different and brought in SA. Guarantee it. Billy V is big and strong, but he is very, very predictable. His rugby brain and maturity are very far from where they need to be to put any fear into the likes of NZ or South Africa. Steffon Armitage highlighted Billy V's vulnerabilities extremely publicly last weekend.

You, quinny, are a strawberry milkshake

Aye, I think Kitchener is one who'll be there in the next few years. He needs to take the 1st choice (alongside Slater probably) for Tigers. Having them as a partnership would be very beneficial.

Pretty happy with the team given the guys already flying out and the guys in the final.

Welly wrote:Wonder if then Kitchener is the next on the list if a second row gets injuryed. ability I would have him ahead of Slater, Parling and Attwood but experience is the main issue at the moment, Also Attwood and Slater are more of the bulk players.

 Think in the next 2 seasons Kitchener will put huge pressure on Launch and Lawes.

Size wise I think Kitchener is the bigger player at 19 stone.

ASBO, i think that England and Steffon Armitage are unusual in my opinion in that they both would genuinely be BETTER TOGETHER   

kingelderfield wrote:

Welly wrote:Wonder if then Kitchener is the next on the list if a second row gets injuryed. ability I would have him ahead of Slater, Parling and Attwood but experience is the main issue at the moment, Also Attwood and Slater are more of the bulk players.

 Think in the next 2 seasons Kitchener will put huge pressure on Launch and Lawes.

Size wise I think Kitchener is the bigger player at 19 stone.

 I meant more enforcer strength players.

Nadolo? No I don't think he's in the picture for NZ. Don't even know if he's eligible

Hes in the Fiji squad.

Have you seen their backs!!?? Theres just rediculous runners everywhere...

Back to England...i like that side.

Is Kitchener 19st??

Wow i wouldnt have him at that. He's bigger than i thought!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is Kitchener 19st??

Wow i wouldnt have him at that. He's bigger than i thought!

 I think he is more around 17 1/2 stone.

Welly wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:

Welly wrote:Wonder if then Kitchener is the next on the list if a second row gets injuryed. ability I would have him ahead of Slater, Parling and Attwood but experience is the main issue at the moment, Also Attwood and Slater are more of the bulk players.

 Think in the next 2 seasons Kitchener will put huge pressure on Launch and Lawes.

Size wise I think Kitchener is the bigger player at 19 stone.

 I meant more enforcer strength players.

Gotcha.

We've got great strenght at Lock at present and for the future.

I know Wicki quotes 17 stone + but both Tigers and the RFU quote the 19 stone figure - also I do recall Cockerill saying something similar earlier in the season.

Cockers said Kitchener wad 19 stone in the Mercury. He's a huge bloke and a friendly guy. Him and Slater have some serious pace considering their hulking frames.

Hows his lineout work going?

An awful lot of "quoted" weights seem very optimistic - usually on the high side. I always thought it would be an interesting exercise if players were weighed going onto the field. Just to get a really accurate weight.

CB

Is he really 19st?

Heavier than Attwood? Although they say Lawes is up at 18 and a half at the moment after his bulking period a year ago.

So maybe it is right.

If it is ....then its scary to think blokes that tall and heavy, are yet seriously agile, athletic and fit.

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