Ireland's Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

Hey all,

Haven't been on here in a while, living out in the middle east so time is short and the chances to watch rugby are a little too rare. I saw the entire 6 Nations and Autumn series but haven't seen as much pro12 or HCup as I would like. So apologies if some of my picks or reasoning are off, I can only judge on what I have seen and am more than happy to watch clips that shed more light on selections etc.

So this is one for the summer tour. I am going to go out on a limb here and say this is probably the biggest summer tour we've had in a while in terms of importance. Last year gave us a look at some lads out in North America and gave some semi meaningful game time to some individuals. Two years ago we very nearly dispelled the curse of the All Blacks and previous ones have all had merit too. This one I feel is different for a number of reasons.

1) We have a new coach who is massively system and skill based. Individuals need to learn the way he wants to play, develop into it and then become comfortable playing with it in International settings. This can't be fully achieved over two games in Argentina but those two games can help.

2) We had the oldest squad of the six nations (significantly oldest). Age is not something that should affect selection but it does slow players down and increase the likelihood of injuries in some cases. We need depth here and in some positions replacements.

3) We have a bank players who are in the 1-10 cap category. These guys need game time to get accustomed to international rugby.

4) This is our last major testing opportunity for new players before the RWC. Players will come through during the 14/15 season at HCup and Pro12 level but next years 6Nations and the majority of the Autumn series will have a fairly settled look to it with less experimentation.

This is who I'd bring to Argentina for the two test series

PROPS:

McGrath: Second choice. Has impressed but has lots to learn and the gametime as first choice will do him good. Healy knows Joe's system and needs rest.
Kilcoyne: Form appears to have fallen from last season. We want depth in this position as it could be an area of strength. Better option than Court imo.
Moore: Could well end up being first choice sooner rather than later. Still has work to do on scrummaging but is developing well. Ross to rest.
Fitzpatrick: If fit he could well end up breaking into matchday 23s. He needs a chance to work in Joe's systems and learn accordingly.

HOOKERS:

Best: An obvious choice for leadership and consistency in the front row where a lot of experimentation is happening.
Cronin: An excellent impact option and deserves to tour.
Strauss: Needs further gametime at international level following his heart condition. A very talented player.

LOCKS:

O'Connell: Captain but among a number who need to mold themselves into Joe's systems still. It's still early days yet regarding new playing style.
Toner: His learning curve is rocketing and this should be allowed to continue.
Henderson: A much more dynamic player that should be explored to give us a different option in selection. Will get gametime there in Ulster 14/15.
Tuohy: I don't think he is back yet but neither is Ryan and like Hendy, Tuohy offers something different in a Hines/Thorn style.

BACKROW:

O'Mahony: Excellent player who is still learning Joe's style and about international rugby. Has a lot of growing to do imo but can become outstanding.
O'Donnell: An exciting and different option and one that should be nurtured to give Schmidt selection choices in horses for courses scenarios.
Henry: Excellent in the 6N, can kick on from this imo.
Murphy: A dynamic, powerful and versatile player that could be perfect for a world cup squad.
Heaslip: Leadership and consistency required much in the same way Best offers this. High standard and versatile playing style.

SCRUMHALVES:

Murray: An all round excellent player and first choice.
Reddan: Playing quite well and doing all the basics really well, needs to gain consistency and show he can excel when his pack are being chewed up.
Marmion: The most potential of all 9s in Ireland. Needs to be given gametime to see what he can do and possibly prepare him for more regular international gametime.

FLYHALVES:

Jackson: Leaving Sexton to rest. Jackson should start as first choice. An excellent player who has more potential and needs time with joe.
Madigan: Needs time to get back to his best and experience in high intensity rugby environments.

CENTRES:

Marshall: Needs gametime as while he has the raw materials he has lots to learn and should be aiming to challenge Darcy more.
Henshaw: My choice for the Irish 13 jersey this summer. Needs gametime at this level and time with Joe. One of my favourite players.

BACK 3:

Zebo: Needs gametime with Joe and to be in this camp. That being said needs to learn a lot before hand and McFadden could get into this squad.
Fitzgerald: Injury dependent for rest of season. Down as back up centre cover too. Could be simply excellent but needs gametime to prove his class.
Earls: Possibly best winger in Ireland in January. I really want to see him back in.
Bowe: Again seen as centre cover. Needs time with Joe and admist lots of good wingers needs to show he is one cut above the rest.
Kearney Jr: Big brother given a rest as he is a clear first choice. Dave given the chance to show he can play 15.
Trimble: Opportunity to show that he is top class after an unbelievable six nations championship.


MAIN GOALS:

1) Come away with a series win.
2) To get options at centre.
3) To create depth at loosehead prop and give Moore/Fitzpatrick the opportunity to prove they are better than Ross.
4) To improve the quality of halfbacks through gametime and time in camp.
5) To incorporate players into the new Irish way of playing the game.

What do people think?
What are peoples main goals.

There is a lot of talent in this Argentina team, although little experience. I think people expecting a walkover will be surprised.

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/argentina-team-ireland-first-test-1503125-Jun2014/?utm_source=twitter_self

Backrow and centres look fairly weak though.

rodders wrote:I'll be watching his rucking that's for sure. DK hits an average of 18 rucks per game. He needs to pull his socks up that's for sure... no matter what colour they are.

DK also doesn't score many tries, gets caught by second rows and falls over on his own some two meters from the line...lets see if zebo has learnt anything

ME-109 wrote:

rodders wrote:I'll be watching his rucking that's for sure. DK hits an average of 18 rucks per game. He needs to pull his socks up that's for sure... no matter what colour they are.

DK also doesn't score many tries, gets caught by second rows and falls over on his own some two meters from the line...lets see if zebo has learnt anything

He can learn what it's like to win a medal.

These two games are auditions for much tougher games in the Autumn.  We can talk up the threat of weakened Argentina all we like but if we can't hit them hard, then talk of Autumn becomes much more gloomy.  
We hit lucky at times during the 6N.  It certainly wasn't all pomp.  So I say we absolutely do need other players in the mix.  We can't fall back on the considered comforts of our 6N mainstays.    So let's hope Schmidt at least expects a certain kind of performance.  And let's hope it matches our guilty expectations too .

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

rodders wrote:I'll be watching his rucking that's for sure. DK hits an average of 18 rucks per game. He needs to pull his socks up that's for sure... no matter what colour they are.

DK also doesn't score many tries, gets caught by second rows and falls over on his own some two meters from the line...lets see if zebo has learnt anything

He can learn what it's like to win a medal.

You don't rate a Pro12 medal then?

I am really hoping for a decent performance myself but I have this niggly feeling that Ireland may be a little complacent.

Realistically Ireland should win this well. I think they should pull away near the end.

For the next game I'd like to see Toner and Henderson in the second row.

Hey guys-anyone have a link for the IRE ARG game? Cheers in advance

disneychilly wrote:Hey guys-anyone have a link for the IRE ARG game? Cheers in advance

Looking for a link too please   

Ah, so it took Sky Sports exactly seven minutes to mention BOD and the 13 shirt.

I'm shocked and stunned.

link lads?

Also have no link wolfball, all my usual sources a crud..

try fromsport(dot)com

Marshall and Cave are looking very good! Linking up nicely and carving the defence up.

PM's sent

Argentina with a man in the bin have just scored a try, this huge winger looks the business for them just put Sexton on his backside like nothing. Going back to the yellow, under the Payne ruling why was it not a red card? He actually looked straight at Trimble and knew what was going on he took off more as a courtesy to make sure he didn't get sent off than to actually challenge for the ball are we saying now that as long as you jump no matter how late or even if you stared straight at the defender no red card, if you stay on the ground even if you ain't looking at the guy red card?
Also Chris Henry just scored for Ireland a lovely rolling maul

11-10 at the minute 36 mins gone

Very entertaining game of rugby this. Montero a star in the making, like a lot of these Pumas.

Half time Ireland 11-10 Argentina Ireland trying to go wide to early for me here could probably do with sticking it in behind the Pumas defence a bit more and keep them pinned back as we aren't really going anywhere out wide at the minute with the pace of the Argentina's defensive line. That big winger for them looks a real handful has already left Trimble and Sexton in his wake, a big European club looms for him I would imagine.

neilthom7 wrote:Argentina with a man in the bin have just scored a try, this huge winger looks the business for them just put Sexton on his backside like nothing.  Going back to the yellow, under the Payne ruling why was it not a red card? He actually looked straight at Trimble and knew what was going on he took off more as a courtesy to make sure he didn't get sent off than to actually challenge for the ball are we saying now that as long as you jump no matter how late or even if you stared straight at the defender no red card, if you stay on the ground even if you ain't looking at the guy red card?
Also Chris Henry just scored for Ireland a lovely rolling maul

The thing is, the player sent off didn't even jump for the ball. He had his eye on Trimbs the whole way and shoulder charged him. Yellow??

Good game. Argies are not the kittens we thought they'd be. That being said their defensive intelligence is poor from being so inexperienced.

Irish positives:

Attack midfield looks good
Solid lineout
Offensive maul
Low error count
Low penalty count
Good direct running in backs making a lot of yards

Irish Negatives:
Defense doesn't look sure
When past 5 phases we look a tad clueless

Pete330v2 wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Argentina with a man in the bin have just scored a try, this huge winger looks the business for them just put Sexton on his backside like nothing.  Going back to the yellow, under the Payne ruling why was it not a red card? He actually looked straight at Trimble and knew what was going on he took off more as a courtesy to make sure he didn't get sent off than to actually challenge for the ball are we saying now that as long as you jump no matter how late or even if you stared straight at the defender no red card, if you stay on the ground even if you ain't looking at the guy red card?
Also Chris Henry just scored for Ireland a lovely rolling maul

The thing is, the player sent off didn't even jump for the ball. He had his eye on Trimbs the whole way and shoulder charged him. Yellow??

From what I seen he literally just took off the ground as he was almost on top of Trimble it could not have been an attempt to play the ball, I don't understand it here is a question though is it now a difference in southern Hemisphere and Northern Hemisphere refs

Ah lovely try from Ireland great work by Diack then a great run by Murphy, lovely little wrap around and Sexton is in for the try

Thank you all lads for your help.

I love day games, cheeses me off how NZ never get to play them at home. Was no skin off my nose getting up at 3am living in NZ!

Trimble intercepts and goes under the posts for a try, classic Trimble interception really

Marmion on.   

And a great interception from Trimble. Some season from him

McFadden on for Luke Marshall, Cave to 12 I think. Kieran Marmion and Jamie Heaslip also on.

The future is very bright for this Argentina side. They are growing brilliant strength in depth and there are a number of future test stars on the pitch here. They'll be peaking nicely in 2015 when you factor in the guys who aren't involved in this series.

Thanks for links all. Being rude at a NYC BBQ watching the match on my phone. Yanks don't understand

Wow amazing pass from Zebo. Unlucky for Cave

19 point lead with 10 to go that should really be the game for Ireland

Argentina take another deserved try. This has been a very good game between two pretty good sides.

hmm not sure what I think of that overall performance :/

Feel that parts were good but some were pretty poor too

Argentina 17-29 Ireland FT

Very entertaining game. Diack had a very good game on his debut, Henderson is a beast, Cave the better of the two centres, worries over Sextons injury and the main negatives for Ireland were some porous defence around the ruck and missed chances when we got into the 22. But very good set piece, some good back play, very good maul and three lads making their debuts who all did very well. Job done Ireland, excited for next week now!   

Defence was a bit all over the place. Forced play a lot from deep but some lovely little touches in there as well. Set piece went well. Henderson had a strong game very impressive. Lots to improve on for next week.

Id say there will be a few of those Argies snapped up by French clubs soon enough

Thought Robbie Diack had a great game although the decision to cut inside in the first half instead of playing the ball out to Zebo for a straight run in cost me 50 quid. I also had Ireland minus 14 so I'm not in the best of form.

Mixed performance for me really. Sexton, Diack, Best pick of the bunch for me. Zebo had a decent game I thought and looked dangerous and thought Darren Cave did well.

Defence was worrying at times.

Shambolic performance from Ireland. Henderson the pick of the bunch. Luke Marshall didn't have a good game, either did Zebo, Jordi Murphy, Felix Jones and most of the pack were average. It was the worst defensive display in a long time. They just couldn't be bothered. Lets remember that this Argentina side are only semi pros. They were knackered near the end but still scored a try.

Lineouts and scrums went well. The only positive.

A canter game of apathy from my perspective.  I'm hoping there was method in the madness of standing off the Argentinians all night.  I'm hoping when Schmidt says he wants to put the prospect players under real pressure that he's organising them in such a way that they are actively attracting pressure, because that was no hardened international standard tempo from the current 6N champions of the variety that SA or Australia produced (two of our opponents a few short months away!)  Didn't see any of the EnglishvNew Zealand game so can't comment on that game.

So - I'm hoping its all part of one grand developing disguised/cloaked long term plan   .............but the only one making that game churn a little past a snore was Sexton and on occasion Trimble.  No Argentina weren't that good, they were carving holes where holes kept showing.  We invited them onto us and - well, they responded to the invitation.

Missed the game completely as on me hols. Will wait for what sin e says to get any proper perspective on it.

Zebo was on fire!!!!!! 22 ruck hits and no misses.  Even wore his white ankles socks as a mark of individualistic defiance.

That's what Sin will kinda say, I reckon.

Me?  Well, he weren't the worst but he found out pretty quickly how ordinary you can look when you're doing the hard graft for Schmidt's 'masterplan'.  He, and I'm sure Sin, will now appreciate boring Dave much, much more.

Keep it up Simon.  You might make the D Kearney grade yet before this tour is over.

Well from what I read he did well but didn't score any tries so he must have gone up in joes estimation

ME-109 wrote:Well from what I read he did well but didn't score any tries so he must have gone up in joes estimation

He did a D Kearney, ME.  Only D Kearney is better at it

Ah, I'm not picking on him really, just having fun with the idea that Kearney's shortfalls were assumed to be the flair stuff.  Zebo learned that it's hard to concentrate on both when you have your duty.  He looked confused at times...and tired too.  
Hope he gets another opportunity though in the next game when things might look a lot more fluid, aggressive and beligerent from the team.  But I wouldn't be singing the praises of much that transpired tonight (by the team as a whole).  A dud with the silver lining of a result.

McGrath- Looked excellent in the scrum, wheeling well with Hendy behind him. Ran for 17m which is pretty tidy for a prop.

Best- Lineout was excellent and made himself a nuissance in defense and in his workings at the ruck. Slows ball down so well.

Ross- Didn't offer much round the park but in our maul he was strong and on our rucks he was fairly immovable which is a vastly undervalued quality.

POC- Excellent lineout work and great workrate getting to the breakdown first off some of our linebreaks. Should never touch the ball though, it dies with him.

Hendy- Excellent aggression and lineout work was very impressive. Credited with 11 tackles and they were yard winners where he stopped lads dead a lot of the time.

Diack- Good debut but butchered that try. Looked tough in defense and ruck work and was used well in the lineout.

Henry- Serious defensive shift and used effectively as a link man in attack. Could be a tad more proactive in defense, was slow to get across when Sanchez stepped inside Marshall.

Murphy- Carried well but would have expected more athleticism to his game based on his speed and ability to read the game. Not a bad outing at all.

Murray- A really excellent game, passed so well and read the game very well too. Hope he's ok for next week.

Sexton- Awesome game. At times took the ball off Murray too often but gave width and selected good options. Defended well (mostly) and his offense is just class. Good chip kicks.

Zebo- Looked good in lots of facets and dodgy in others. Ran really well and tackled really well. When he blitzed the line off a 5m scrum he shot in and if pass had gone to hand Argies would have been in.

Marshall- Good in attack where he showed off lots of different skills will hate seeing that miss on Sanchez. Was a poor miss to make. For the most part played well enough but not great.

Cave- Looked the best of the backs other than Sexton. He attacked well and defender well, used space effectively and got stuck in at the rucks.

Trimble- Looked ok without showing us his 6Nations form. Ball didn't come his way too often and when he went looking for it he found blind alleys in Argie midfield.

Jones- I really don't rate him. Makes bad decisions and doesn't have the natural physicality of speed to be an instinctive runner. Payne, Zebo or Henshaw should take reserve 15.

Its amazing how differently people see the game. I honestly thought that Zebo (along with Sexton) was a standout player in a fairly poor overall team performance. Attacked and defended excellently, certainly offers this Ireland side more than Dave Kearney in my opinion.

Heaslip was taken to the cleaners when he came on, got driven back 15mtrs and turned over with his first touch and lost the ball in contact with his second touch.

Henry was excellent, he was a real driving force and I get more and more impressed with him every time I see him play.

Trimble constantly puts his body on the line but his reading of the game is something else, really am so happy he has been given the faith and he has more than earnt his place. Will take something special from another to oust him right now.

Nachos Jones wrote:Its amazing how differently people see the game. I honestly thought that Zebo (along with Sexton) was a standout player in a fairly poor overall team performance. Attacked and defended excellently, certainly offers this Ireland side more than Dave Kearney in my opinion.

You're so right and I'm always amazed by that - how differently we can all see one game.  

Back to Zebo - and I only bring him up again because of that idea that we all see things differently - I believe he has the potential to offer Ireland more than Kearney - at wing! I believe Kearney is in the wrong position for his talents, but that's another day's talk.  

But in no way do I see that game last night as an example of Zebo excelling Kearney.  Plus, he did the 7s 'skip before run' gig far far too often - that cuts out miliseconds out of any potential attack.  Defenders love players who do that 'pause then skip' stuff because it gives them vital miliseconds to pin down their man, and focus on him, and prepare for his arrival.  Plus - Kearney played against real teams, going for real prizes, stuffed with real world rugby stars.  Had Ireland played Australia or South Africa or England or New Zealand last night, and left so many doors open, and looked absolutely unable to sustain an aggressive tempo, then they'd have been slaughtered.  Everything is relative.

I agree that Ireland would have been stuffed by bigger sides yesterday but in no way would Dave Kearney have done better than Zebo. Zebo was at least trying to get things moving and his defence was excellent (no second rows out paced him ).
 
The little goose step you refer too fly, may cost milliseconds but it also puts and element of doubt into defending teams minds as to what he is going to do. It does not give them time to set their defence, it gives them a little doubt as Zebo is unpredictable. Dave Kearney is far too predictable in my opinion and that allows the defensive line to react far more than Zebo's goose step does.
 
Don't get me wrong, I like Dave Kearney and think that he is a decent player but I just feel Zebo offers Ireland a lot more.
 
I think that your comment "Kearney played against real teams, going for real prizes, stuffed with real world rugby stars"  is also a little condescending as Zebo was never afforded that chance.

Nachos Jones wrote:

I think that your comment "Kearney played against real teams, going for real prizes, stuffed with real world rugby stars"  is also a little condescending.

I speak truth (well as I see it) Nachos...and I don't avoid the risk of condescension to speak what I see as the truth. Worrying about condescension makes people avoid the truth.
And the truth, as I see it, is that the sides Kearney has played against under Schmidt were real teams (ie genuine first team selections from the Nations they come from), going for real prizes (hungry for 6N), stuffed with real world rugby stars (Welsh, English, New Zealand etc)

I've always stated that Dave Kearney is not a natural wing.  I believe he should shift to a central position.  But on the evidence so far, Zebo is not yet a natural 'Kearney' in terms of what Schmidt wants from his wings.  He might get there.  Good luck to him (and us!!) if he does.  But he ain't there yet.

Nachos Jones wrote:
 
The little goose step you refer too fly, may cost milliseconds but it also puts and element of doubt into defending teams minds as to what he is going to do. It does not give them time to set their defence, it gives them a little doubt as Zebo is unpredictable.

Oops, missed this bit - sorry. Nope, categorically disagree there Nachos. It's a ruse of 'unpredictability' that wise defending players have long adapted to with all but the best proponents. Even Jason Robinson began to run up dark alleys with that trick when teams stood waiting for him to do the goosestep stuff in front of them and then just grabbed him.

It wastes time. It fools few. Time is money.

So you honestly think that if Zebo had have played in those games against 'real teams' he would not have performed as well as Dave Kearney? I believe that he would have had an impact in those games.

His defence is better than DK, his attacking flair is also on a higher level, his work rate is better, his handling skills are better and his speed leaves DK for dead.

SecretFly wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:
 
The little goose step you refer too fly, may cost milliseconds but it also puts and element of doubt into defending teams minds as to what he is going to do. It does not give them time to set their defence, it gives them a little doubt as Zebo is unpredictable.  

Oops, missed this bit - sorry.  Nope, categorically disagree there Nachos.  It's a ruse of 'unpredictability' that wise defending players have long adapted to with all but the best proponents.  Even Jason Robinson began to run up dark alleys with that trick when teams stood waiting for him to do the goosestep stuff in front of them and then just grabbed him.

It wastes time.  It fools few.  Time is money.

Well I see this many times from him and the majority of the time the defensive team are stood up to re-line due to the unpredictable nature of his actions. Just my opinion though. Dave Kearney just does what he is told and as such is easier to defend against him than Zebo.