Ireland's Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

Hey all,

Haven't been on here in a while, living out in the middle east so time is short and the chances to watch rugby are a little too rare. I saw the entire 6 Nations and Autumn series but haven't seen as much pro12 or HCup as I would like. So apologies if some of my picks or reasoning are off, I can only judge on what I have seen and am more than happy to watch clips that shed more light on selections etc.

So this is one for the summer tour. I am going to go out on a limb here and say this is probably the biggest summer tour we've had in a while in terms of importance. Last year gave us a look at some lads out in North America and gave some semi meaningful game time to some individuals. Two years ago we very nearly dispelled the curse of the All Blacks and previous ones have all had merit too. This one I feel is different for a number of reasons.

1) We have a new coach who is massively system and skill based. Individuals need to learn the way he wants to play, develop into it and then become comfortable playing with it in International settings. This can't be fully achieved over two games in Argentina but those two games can help.

2) We had the oldest squad of the six nations (significantly oldest). Age is not something that should affect selection but it does slow players down and increase the likelihood of injuries in some cases. We need depth here and in some positions replacements.

3) We have a bank players who are in the 1-10 cap category. These guys need game time to get accustomed to international rugby.

4) This is our last major testing opportunity for new players before the RWC. Players will come through during the 14/15 season at HCup and Pro12 level but next years 6Nations and the majority of the Autumn series will have a fairly settled look to it with less experimentation.

This is who I'd bring to Argentina for the two test series

PROPS:

McGrath: Second choice. Has impressed but has lots to learn and the gametime as first choice will do him good. Healy knows Joe's system and needs rest.
Kilcoyne: Form appears to have fallen from last season. We want depth in this position as it could be an area of strength. Better option than Court imo.
Moore: Could well end up being first choice sooner rather than later. Still has work to do on scrummaging but is developing well. Ross to rest.
Fitzpatrick: If fit he could well end up breaking into matchday 23s. He needs a chance to work in Joe's systems and learn accordingly.

HOOKERS:

Best: An obvious choice for leadership and consistency in the front row where a lot of experimentation is happening.
Cronin: An excellent impact option and deserves to tour.
Strauss: Needs further gametime at international level following his heart condition. A very talented player.

LOCKS:

O'Connell: Captain but among a number who need to mold themselves into Joe's systems still. It's still early days yet regarding new playing style.
Toner: His learning curve is rocketing and this should be allowed to continue.
Henderson: A much more dynamic player that should be explored to give us a different option in selection. Will get gametime there in Ulster 14/15.
Tuohy: I don't think he is back yet but neither is Ryan and like Hendy, Tuohy offers something different in a Hines/Thorn style.

BACKROW:

O'Mahony: Excellent player who is still learning Joe's style and about international rugby. Has a lot of growing to do imo but can become outstanding.
O'Donnell: An exciting and different option and one that should be nurtured to give Schmidt selection choices in horses for courses scenarios.
Henry: Excellent in the 6N, can kick on from this imo.
Murphy: A dynamic, powerful and versatile player that could be perfect for a world cup squad.
Heaslip: Leadership and consistency required much in the same way Best offers this. High standard and versatile playing style.

SCRUMHALVES:

Murray: An all round excellent player and first choice.
Reddan: Playing quite well and doing all the basics really well, needs to gain consistency and show he can excel when his pack are being chewed up.
Marmion: The most potential of all 9s in Ireland. Needs to be given gametime to see what he can do and possibly prepare him for more regular international gametime.

FLYHALVES:

Jackson: Leaving Sexton to rest. Jackson should start as first choice. An excellent player who has more potential and needs time with joe.
Madigan: Needs time to get back to his best and experience in high intensity rugby environments.

CENTRES:

Marshall: Needs gametime as while he has the raw materials he has lots to learn and should be aiming to challenge Darcy more.
Henshaw: My choice for the Irish 13 jersey this summer. Needs gametime at this level and time with Joe. One of my favourite players.

BACK 3:

Zebo: Needs gametime with Joe and to be in this camp. That being said needs to learn a lot before hand and McFadden could get into this squad.
Fitzgerald: Injury dependent for rest of season. Down as back up centre cover too. Could be simply excellent but needs gametime to prove his class.
Earls: Possibly best winger in Ireland in January. I really want to see him back in.
Bowe: Again seen as centre cover. Needs time with Joe and admist lots of good wingers needs to show he is one cut above the rest.
Kearney Jr: Big brother given a rest as he is a clear first choice. Dave given the chance to show he can play 15.
Trimble: Opportunity to show that he is top class after an unbelievable six nations championship.


MAIN GOALS:

1) Come away with a series win.
2) To get options at centre.
3) To create depth at loosehead prop and give Moore/Fitzpatrick the opportunity to prove they are better than Ross.
4) To improve the quality of halfbacks through gametime and time in camp.
5) To incorporate players into the new Irish way of playing the game.

What do people think?
What are peoples main goals.

I tend to agree with Sin É concerning how Schmidt is viewed in NZ. It would be interesting to see how some of the Kiwis on here view him? I would say its like Gatland...who has two Grand Slams and was within a whisker of getting into a World Cup Final...if you dont beat the SH teams regularly you just arent going to be considered.

I think Joe has the spine of his RWC team picked and is looking to fill in a few blanks. A few things are clear:-

Centre is a priority - he's not looking beyond Madigan, Henshaw and Payne to play outside and Cave rather than Marshall seems to be preferred back up to D'arcy.

Zebo is down the wing pecking order and has a lot to do if he wants to make the RWC team. Even Bowe is touch and go at this stage with Trimble, Kearney and McFadden the preferred wings.

Tight 5 is pretty much set in stone along with the bench.

Joes preferred 15 imo:

15 Kearney
14 Trimble / Bowe / McFadden
13 ? Payne / Henshaw  
12 D'arcy / Cave
11 Kearney/ McFadden / Zebo
10 Sexton / Jackson / Madigan
9 Murray / Reddan
8 Heaslip / Murphy
7 O'Brien /Henry
6 POM/ Ruddock
5 O'Connell / McCarthy
4 Toner / Henderson
3 Ross / Moore
2 Best /Cronin
1 Healy / McGrath

Bolters - Kilcoyne, Zebo, Earls, Marmion, Donnacha Ryan

ME-109 wrote:I tend to agree with Sin É concerning how Schmidt is viewed in NZ. It would be interesting to see how some of the Kiwis on here view him? I would say its like Gatland...who has two Grand Slams and was within a whisker of getting into a World Cup Final...if you dont beat the SH teams regularly you just arent going to be considered.

Yeah I agree, I don't think he's on the radar down there....which is great for us because he's the best technical coach in the NH - let them take Gatland! ....

I reckon..... the opinion of New Zealanders in New Zealand would be that Schmidt has less genuine A class, individual natural talent to work with than Gatland has.  

The view always amongst New Zealanders seems to be that Wales is a more natural talent pool for natural exciting rugby players.  Ireland, on the other hand, is populated mostly with honest grafters who often fight above their abilities and more often don't.

I think New Zealanders would be far more impressed by what Schmidt might get out of his ordinary blokes than what Gatland seems to constantly fail to get out of his uber slick Welsh boys.

None of those aspersions of how naturally good or bad the Irish and Welsh are in respect to each other would be shared by me personally.  But I think overall - going on my years of experiences about public opinions and from a general overview of New Zealand media etc - that would be their more emotional reading of the abilities of Schmidt and Galtand.

Gatland should have been getting more bang for buck from his Individual stars - whilst Ireland is once again shooting above their natural abilities due to the presence of a pretty handy Kiwi super strategist.  They'll keep a close eye on his progress.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Earls has got to get gametime down in Argentina I think, he has looked really good I think.

I'm expecting Marmion to be kicking around the Autumn Internationals 23 man squad, I'd predict Moore to be starting, SOB obviously, either Payne or Henshaw and possibly another winger somewhere too.

I think NZ would be delighted to get Joe in 2/3/4 years time

Joe Schmidt will be up against Dave Rennie (thats if Hansen calls it a day) back-to-back super rugby winner and coach to 3xU20s world cup teams in the last 6 years.

Joe will have to go back to NZ and do his apprenticeship there first - just like Henry had to and Hansen had to before they got the top job.

PS. He might not be offered a quick step into the Commander's role straight away but an offer of a strategic backs coaching role might be thrown his way to get him in and to set him up for possible promotion from there.  All that will of course depend on that (Irish) progress continuing to impress.

SecretFly wrote:I reckon..... the opinion of New Zealanders in New Zealand would be that Schmidt has less genuine A class, individual natural talent to work with than Gatland has.  

The view always amongst New Zealanders seems to be that Wales is a more natural talent pool for natural exciting rugby players.  Ireland, on the other hand, is populated mostly with honest grafters who often fight above their abilities and more often don't.

I think New Zealanders would be far more impressed by what Schmidt might get out of his ordinary blokes than what Gatland seems to constantly fail to get out of his uber slick Welsh boys.

None of those aspersions of how naturally good or bad the Irish and Welsh are in respect to each other would be shared by me personally.  But I think overall - going on my years of experiences about public opinions and from a general overview of New Zealand media etc - that would be their more emotional reading of the abilities of Schmidt and Galtand.

Gatland should have been getting more bang for buck from his Individual stars - whilst Ireland is once again shooting above their natural abilities due to the presence of a pretty handy Kiwi super strategist.  They'll keep a close eye on his progress.

Graham Henry and Steve Hansen both failed with Wales, unlike Gatland!

Schmidt will be seen to be doing better with the calibre of players New Zealanders presume to be working with Schmidt.

How many times do you have to drop under Australian pressure before ambitious New Zealanders turn their All Seeing Eye to other candidates?  When they see one operating pretty damn close to the 'current favourite'.

We'll see Sin.  We'll see.

Another PS!  Any fool can see that Schmidt has many more style tricks up his sleeve than Gatland's age old mechanisms.  With Schmidt's ideas and the natural flair of New Zealand players - that would be a much richer soup of ideas dropped onto unfortunate All Black opponents into any future post McCaw and Carter

SecretFly wrote:Schmidt will be seen to be doing better with the calibre of players New Zealanders presume to be working with Schmidt.

How many times do you have to drop under Australian pressure before ambitious New Zealanders turn their All Seeing Eye to other candidates?  When they see one operating pretty damn close to the 'current favourite'.

We'll see Sin.  We'll see.

Yea, I'm sure they are impressed that the likes of Simon Zebo couldn't make the squad - how is he going to be able to deal with a whole team of skilful and talented players.

The NZ rugby union were very loyal to Graham Henry even when he had a disaster of a world cup in 2007.

Sin é - hate to break it to you this way - but New Zealanders don't rightly care or know (in overall citizen terms) who Zebo is at this point, much less fret about what Schmidt is doing with or without him.

They're calmly keeping an eye on the overall package.  And that's what they'll keep doing; they'll keep watching the overall package and how it progresses or regresses under the coming strains of WC.

Zebo?  He'll be as far from the loop of their thoughts (unless he's a crucial ruck hitter at that point for Ireland!!! ) - he'll be as little in their thoughts as Carlos Spencer will be.

The New Zealanders aren't sentimental when it comes to picking the right guy for the right role.  The whole idea about them is that they're ruthless.

New Zealenders don't care what goes on in the NH - HEC and 6N means very little when it comes to the ABs.

For Schmidt to put himself in the AB frame he'd need to go down and win some silverware in super rugby, as well as get a win or 2 as Ireland (or Lions) coach.

There is no way this man (Schmidt) is going back to club rugby to give him his shot at All Blacks - anymore than Gatland is thinking of heading back to club rugby to have his shot.

The upcoming WC is the audition for any future All Black position and then, after that, perhaps further International stints with other International outfits before a vacancy comes up.

If Schmidt is forced to drop back down to Super rugby then it'll be a drop back down that he won't be coming up from.  The world will have moved on and Foley will be All Blacks coach by then

PS3! He could of course go straight to Saracens and forget International rugby completely of course.
Club will be the New Manchester United in a few years. Coaching salaries will be into the millions, all top coaches will be in England or France with Supercharged clubs. None of them will care a hoot about International, International won't be able to afford them. McCafferty will be king of England after toppling William in a bloodgate coup, supported by South African troops and His PRL Bible-speak....

rodders wrote:I think Joe has the spine of his RWC team picked and is looking to fill in a few blanks. A few things are clear:-

Centre is a priority - he's not looking beyond Madigan, Henshaw and Payne to play outside and Cave rather than Marshall seems to be preferred back up to D'arcy.

Zebo is down the wing pecking order and has a lot to do if he wants to make the RWC team. Even Bowe is touch and go at this stage with Trimble, Kearney and McFadden the preferred wings.

Tight 5 is pretty much set in stone along with the bench.

Joes preferred 15 imo:

15 Kearney
14 Trimble / Bowe / McFadden
13 ? Payne / Henshaw  
12 D'arcy / Cave
11 Kearney/ McFadden / Zebo
10 Sexton / Jackson / Madigan
9 Murray / Reddan
8 Heaslip / Murphy
7 O'Brien /Henry
6 POM/ Ruddock
5 O'Connell / McCarthy
4 Toner / Henderson
3 Ross / Moore
2 Best /Cronin
1 Healy / McGrath

Bolters - Kilcoyne, Zebo, Earls, Marmion, Donnacha Ryan

I would say thats right except I reckon Scmidt will go for Earls over McFadden on the bench as he can cover centre/wing and FB. I would have Touhy before McCarthy as well. Other than that the team will not change significantly. Cant see Marshall getting in given his form has dropped but also the way he has been in and out the revolving door since the november internationals. With Payne also coming available (when?) he will also be cover for Kearney at FB, so if Henshaw isnt the new thing its either he or Payne with Payne/Henshaw/Earls/McFadden fighting it out for the bench spot. Bowe will have to show a significant improvement in form to make it as well.

Fly, Graham Henry went back to Super Rugby after Wales as the Blues Defence Coach. Gatland went back to NZ to coach an ITM team, won the ITM Cup and couldn't get a job in Super Rugby. Thats why he is with Wales.

Joe is going to have to coach Super Rugby if he wants to coach the ABs. His problem will be getting a job in Super Rugby though.

Zebo is not out of the woods in Schmidt's books yet. He is the only player he said that was selected for the squad who still has 'a lot of work to do'.

joe schmidt wrote:"There are still some things he will be working hard on in camp and he'll be given some direction about some other things that we do need," Schmidt said of Zebo yesterday.

"There are a few things. I think if you were objective on Friday night, you'd see a few things he needs to work on. And at the same time you'd definitely see a few of those things that he brings."

I know this is the Indo, but this is the comment they made:

The coach does not relish talking about the Munster wing and took issue with the idea that he was "not in his thinking" during this season. But, the fact remains that Ireland have used five wingers ahead of the Lion this season.

I'd say Earls is ahead of him. He is good at hitting rucks.

Zebo's not out of the woods but he's in that "here's your chance now show what you can do camp" along with Cave and some others like Kilcoyne and Earls.

Anyone who was fit and didn't feature in the 6N has some work to do to elbow their way in to the inner circle.

The first 15 is close to nailed on - maybe 10 or so and some guys are nailed on for the squad like McFadden and Dave Kearney because Joe trusts them to do a job if they are picked.

Sin é wrote:Fly, Graham Henry went back to Super Rugby after Wales as the Blues Defence Coach. Gatland went back to NZ to coach an ITM team, won the ITM Cup and couldn't get a job in Super Rugby. Thats why he is with Wales.

Joe is going to have to coach Super Rugby if he wants to coach the ABs. His problem will be getting a job in Super Rugby though.

It's the 21st century these days though, Sin. It's a whole new woyld out there. Them good ol' days methods won't work no more. There's just too much ambitiousness around concerning money and stuff. The old ways of yore will be set adrift on an indifferent wind as Professionalism dictates that no more will coaches have to go down to come up again. Or, if'n they do go down, it'll be to go up in cash terms - never to go back up to less cash again down there in the upper terrain of International.

Nah...cant see Zebo making it with Schmidt. He will be out the revolving door come November (as will Marshal and Cave). Earls is the only one I see making it (possibly Bowe). The only player under threat would be McFadden.

It will be interesting to see if he parachutes Payne into the group when he becomes available. I doubt it though.

Sin é wrote:Zebo is not out of the woods in Schmidt's books yet. He is the only player he said that was selected for the squad who still has 'a lot of work to do'.

DOD keeps telling you. Ruck hitting. More ruck hitting - most especially in training. No waiting for the lights and cameras of play day - ruck hitting in training.

rodders wrote:I think Joe has the spine of his RWC team picked and is looking to fill in a few blanks. A few things are clear:-

Centre is a priority - he's not looking beyond Madigan, Henshaw and Payne to play outside and Cave rather than Marshall seems to be preferred back up to D'arcy.

Zebo is down the wing pecking order and has a lot to do if he wants to make the RWC team. Even Bowe is touch and go at this stage with Trimble, Kearney and McFadden the preferred wings.

Tight 5 is pretty much set in stone along with the bench.

Joes preferred 15 imo:

15 Kearney
14 Trimble / Bowe / McFadden
13 ? Payne / Henshaw  
12 D'arcy / Cave
11 Kearney/ McFadden / Zebo
10 Sexton / Jackson / Madigan
9 Murray / Reddan
8 Heaslip / Murphy
7 O'Brien /Henry
6 POM/ Ruddock
5 O'Connell / McCarthy
4 Toner / Henderson
3 Ross / Moore
2 Best /Cronin
1 Healy / McGrath

Bolters - Kilcoyne, Zebo, Earls, Marmion, Donnacha Ryan

rodders you not think Olding has a good shout if he's fit?

ME-109 wrote:Nah...cant see Zebo making it with Schmidt. He will be out the revolving door come November (as will Marshal and Cave). Earls is the only one I see making it (possibly Bowe). The only player under threat would be McFadden.

It will be interesting to see if he parachutes Payne into the group when he becomes available. I doubt it though.

It's a tough love session between Schmidt and Zebo.  He's preparing Zebo mentally to be the best player Ireland has ever had.  Schmidt will be thanked one day for continually telling a frustrated Zebo "You still don't impress me yet".

Zebo, like Decimus before him - will be unleashed when he's just about had enough Schidt from Schmidt.  The WC final against New Zealand

I think he'll definitely give Payne a chance in the Autumn.

He's definitely in the thinking for the 13 jersey. He needs to prove he can fit Joes plan too so definitely not a certainty. However looking at the alternatives I'd say Payne's fate is in his own hands.

marty2086 wrote:
rodders you not think Olding has a good shout if he's fit?

Not really no. Not for the RWC unless he has an incredible season for Ulster. He's definitely one for the future, like Hanaran, but think the RWC has come foo soon, He needs to try and nail down a position at Ulster next season.

When is the Emerging Ireland squad being announced...I wonder will JJ or Keatley go with Madigan (or both).

Who is in charge of Emerging Ireland?  Ruddock?  (Nope he's busy!)
And why is it called Emerging Ireland and not simply a Wolfhound side?  You spend money on manufacturing a Wolfhound name and then invent another one?
There was an excuse for an ''Emerging Ireland' name last year when Irish players were practically divided into three between Lions players in Australia, Ireland players in America and Canada and then that Emerging Ireland mini tour in Georgia.  Not so much of an excuse this year though.

rodders wrote:I think he'll definitely give Payne a chance in the Autumn.

He's definitely in the thinking for the 13 jersey. He needs to prove he can fit Joes plan too so definitely not a certainty. However looking at the alternatives I'd say Payne's fate is in his own hands.  

I wouldn't be too sure of that. Henshaw seems to be the anointed one (and probably the main reason why there is so much investment going into Connacht).

Extra 1m announced today for Connacht, Mils, loads of stuff. It must be for Henshaw because I don't think Connacht has that much talent coming through to warrant that amount of investment. Their squad is full of foreign players who hope to become Ireland qualified.

SecretFly wrote:Who is in charge of Emerging Ireland?  Ruddock?  (Nope he's busy!)
And why is it called Emerging Ireland and not simply a Wolfhound side?  You spend money on manufacturing a Wolfhound name and then invent another one?
There was an excuse for an ''Emerging Ireland' name last year when Irish players were practically divided into three between Lions players in Australia, Ireland players in America and Canada and then that Emerging Ireland mini tour in Georgia.  Not so much of an excuse this year though.

At a guess, I'd say that outside the UK & Ireland, no one would have a clue as to who or what the Wolfhounds is and that wouldn't be good going to a Nations Cup competition where everyone else is playing their first team and are called by their country name. Only the Saxons & Wolfhounds have given their A teams names.

No more piggyback rides into successor to HEC, so more self perpetuation will be needed in Pro12.  It's only natural that IRFU who own all four Irish units would give some resources to Connacht to help them fight that future battle.

The negotiators were true to their word - no more free lunches into Europe - unless of course you still have six guaranteeds like always.  

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Who is in charge of Emerging Ireland?  Ruddock?  (Nope he's busy!)
And why is it called Emerging Ireland and not simply a Wolfhound side?  You spend money on manufacturing a Wolfhound name and then invent another one?
There was an excuse for an ''Emerging Ireland' name last year when Irish players were practically divided into three between Lions players in Australia, Ireland players in America and Canada and then that Emerging Ireland mini tour in Georgia.  Not so much of an excuse this year though.

At a guess, I'd say that outside the UK & Ireland, no one would have a clue as to who or what the Wolfhounds is and that wouldn't be good going to a Nations Cup competition where everyone else is playing their first team and are called by their country name. Only the Saxons & Wolfhounds have given their A teams names.

Not the point though.  Wolfhounds are Wolfhounds, regardless of who knows anything or nothing about them.  They learn quickly when the media let them know it's Ireland A with fur and they wear the usual green and things  And following on from that logic - so too would an Ireland A be an Ireland A.

'Emerging Ireland' is fine when we're stretched into virtually three sides in any given summer monhts like happened last year... but Ireland A would have done if nobody wanted the Mythological Battledog analogies to upset their cornflake breakfasts.

No real issues with it though except that it seems needlessly fussy to have so many Irish names floating around to describe very similar selections of players.

PS one last time! BTW, the President's XV is a little naming fun and games that South Africa use now and again. So we ain't alone in the fancy name department.

Joes preferred 15 imo:

15 Kearney
14 Trimble / Bowe / McFadden
13 ? Payne / Henshaw  
12 D'arcy / Cave
11 Kearney/ McFadden / Zebo
10 Sexton / Jackson / Madigan
9 Murray / Reddan
8 Heaslip / Murphy
7 O'Brien /Henry
6 POM/ Ruddock
5 O'Connell / McCarthy
4 Toner / Henderson
3 Ross / Moore
2 Best /Cronin
1 Healy / McGrath

Bolters - Kilcoyne, Zebo, Earls, Marmion, Donnacha Ryan

Given his form this season especially in defence Earls has to be genuine contender on the wing.

Depending on how he goes for Munster next season I think Copeland may force himself into the equation at some stage and it's quite disappointing that he's not going to Argentina. It may be just a numbers thing though and he might be off with Ireland 'A'.

I would definitely think that Ferris will be in contention in the backrow. If he get back to his best and remains injury free how could you ignore him?

Similarly with Donnacha Ryan if he gets back to his absolute best he will be back in contention. Certainly a better player than McCarthy and also covers 6.

Bolter - If Mike Sherry could put an injury free run together come next summer he could be hard to ignore.

Sin é wrote:Nope. He isn't liked in New Zealand because of the way he handled Carlos Spencer.

He already interviewed with Cotter (whose stock has fallen) the last time. He will need to work in Super Rugby (or assistant AB coach) before he would get the top Job.

Lol you must have mentioned that over 20 times on this site and a quick google search shows you've been banging the same drum on boards and munsterfans.You read an article with no sources or quotes with one line mentioning Schmidt and you keep repeating it like it's a verified fact.Have you anything else to back up this idea that he isn't liked because Spencer struggled when Schmidt was an assistant coach with his team in Super rugby.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:I think he'll definitely give Payne a chance in the Autumn.

He's definitely in the thinking for the 13 jersey. He needs to prove he can fit Joes plan too so definitely not a certainty. However looking at the alternatives I'd say Payne's fate is in his own hands.  

I wouldn't be too sure of that. Henshaw seems to be the anointed one (and probably the main reason why there is so much investment going into Connacht).

Extra 1m announced today for Connacht, Mils, loads of stuff. It must be for Henshaw because I don't think Connacht has that much talent coming through to warrant that amount of investment. Their squad is full of foreign players who hope to become Ireland qualified.

Afraid not - BOD and Schmidt met with Payne last August to see if he had aspirations to play centre for Ireland.

Henshaw is seen as one for the future and Payne will be mentoring him. The investment in Connacht is to help them compete for a European spot and also as a sweetner for Henshaw and Marmion moving to Leinster in the near future.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10791216

Here is the article concerning Spencer and Schmidt...it just points out that Carlos and Scmidt didnt see eye to eye and that since Spencer left the Blues went from being very good to no hopers because of it.

Not Schmidts finest hour. What is interesting is that he wasnt able to develop a new backline...might have been why taking over a work in progress like Cheika's leinster suited him....

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:I think he'll definitely give Payne a chance in the Autumn.

He's definitely in the thinking for the 13 jersey. He needs to prove he can fit Joes plan too so definitely not a certainty. However looking at the alternatives I'd say Payne's fate is in his own hands.  

I wouldn't be too sure of that. Henshaw seems to be the anointed one (and probably the main reason why there is so much investment going into Connacht).

Extra 1m announced today for Connacht, Mils, loads of stuff. It must be for Henshaw because I don't think Connacht has that much talent coming through to warrant that amount of investment. Their squad is full of foreign players who hope to become Ireland qualified.

Afraid not - BOD and Schmidt met with Payne last August to see if he had aspirations to play centre for Ireland.

Henshaw is seen as one for the future and Payne will be mentoring him. The investment in Connacht is to help them compete for a European spot and also as a sweetner for Henshaw and Marmion moving to Leinster in the near future.

So the plan is to have a player who mainly plays fullback mentor a player who up to now plays at fullback as a centre.  

Makes sense bringing in Mils then!

What has Payne done in the game to be able to mentor anyone (at fullback or at centre)?

Super rugby player of the season 2010/11 playing at centre.

Wing and centre were his main positions before coming to Ulster as a fullback after the deal for Corey Jane fell through.

Well he could teach Henshaw
1. How not to contest a ball in the air and
2. How not to tackle (alá Ian Madigans try last weekend).

ME-109 wrote:Well he could teach Henshaw
1. How not to contest a ball in the air and
2. How not to tackle (alá Ian Madigans try last weekend).

Well you may as well learn these things from the best. If Earls could teach him how to butcher a try by ignoring his supporting players then he could be the total package....

ME-109 wrote:http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10791216

Here is the article concerning Spencer and Schmidt...it just points out that Carlos and Scmidt didnt see eye to eye and that since Spencer left the Blues went from being very good to no hopers because of it.

Not Schmidts finest hour. What is interesting is that he wasnt able to develop a new backline...might have been why taking over a work in progress like Cheika's leinster suited him....

Schmidt Wasn't head coach with Blues.  How many times do I have to repeat that when this Carlos thing comes up and up and up again?

Schmidt wasn't head coach.  Had Blues Head honchos considered Schmidt's ways wrong, he and not Spencer would have been shipped. But Schmidt stayed and Spencer walked..... one night when Blues head coach was sleeping obviously.

Stop pinging Schmidt with an issue that wasn't his.  You might as well say that Zebo's 'problems' and 'issues' with Ireland camp didn't start with Schmidt at all, or involve him at all, but with Kiss.  Kiss is the guy who said about Schmidt - paraphrase: "we'll cooperate but I won't be a 'Yes' man - I'll make my opinions known, we'll come to consensus."

Any 606 ME's or Sins mentioning Kiss in relation to any coldness of intent about the role or lack thereof of Zebo in Irish camp?  Nope?   Never a mention of Kiss.  Kiss is just a sub-coach, he doesn't call the shots on who is and isn't wanted in camp?  The buck stops with schoolmaster Schmidt and his ruck hitting blackboard.

Good.  Glad that's settled.  We're back to the bloody Blues and bloody Carlos  
Bloody Carlos Spencer and how mad a Kiwi might get with another Kiwi and cause a World War in the process.  Over to ME and Sin for the continuing story on that well disguised conflagration that the world is too dumb to notice as it gets ready for a Ruskie and American fight in Europe.

I didnt say anything fly...the journo mentioned Schmidt with Carlos, doesnt mention the headcoach at all. What I found more interesting was his inability to develop the backline after the changes that happened in the blues.

rodders wrote:Super rugby player of the season 2010/11 playing at centre.

Wing and centre were his main positions before coming to Ulster as a fullback after the deal for Corey Jane fell through.

That doesn't qualify him to mentor anyone. He hasn't played in a team that have won anything of note.

Payne needs to improve his big match temperment. He should hang out with Zebo a bit, he might pick up something.

ME-109 wrote:I didnt say anything fly...the journo mentioned Schmidt with Carlos, doesnt mention the headcoach at all. What I found more interesting was his inability to develop the backline after the changes that happened in the blues.

It should ME.  Afterall, we always do here in Ireland, don't we

SecretFly wrote:

ME-109 wrote:I didnt say anything fly...the journo mentioned Schmidt with Carlos, doesnt mention the headcoach at all. What I found more interesting was his inability to develop the backline after the changes that happened in the blues.

It should ME.  Afterall, we always do here in Ireland, don't we

Seems to me there was a clear identification of the parties involved in this instance....

Sin é wrote:
Payne needs to improve his big match temperment. He should hang out with Zebo a bit, he might pick up something.

Like gonorrhea? ....

SecretFly wrote:

ME-109 wrote:http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10791216

Here is the article concerning Spencer and Schmidt...it just points out that Carlos and Scmidt didnt see eye to eye and that since Spencer left the Blues went from being very good to no hopers because of it.

Not Schmidts finest hour. What is interesting is that he wasnt able to develop a new backline...might have been why taking over a work in progress like Cheika's leinster suited him....

Schmidt Wasn't head coach with Blues.  How many times do I have to repeat that when this Carlos thing comes up and up and up again?

Schmidt wasn't head coach.  Had Blues Head honchos considered Schmidt's ways wrong, he and not Spencer would have been shipped.  But Schmidt stayed and Spencer walked..... one night when Blues head coach was sleeping obviously.

Stop pinging Schmidt with an issue that wasn't his.  You might as well say that Zebo's 'problems' and 'issues' with Ireland camp didn't start with Schmidt at all, or involve him at all, but with Kiss.  Kiss is the guy who said about Schmidt - paraphrase: "we'll cooperate but I won't be a 'Yes' man - I'll make my opinions known, we'll come to consensus."

Any 606 ME's or Sins mentioning Kiss in relation to any coldness of intent about the role or lack thereof of Zebo in Irish camp?  Nope?   Never a mention of Kiss.  Kiss is just a sub-coach, he doesn't call the shots on who is and isn't wanted in camp?  The buck stops with schoolmaster Schmidt and his ruck hitting blackboard.

Good.  Glad that's settled.  We're back to the bloody Blues and bloody Carlos  
Bloody Carlos Spencer and how mad a Kiwi might get with another Kiwi and cause a World War in the process.  Over to ME and Sin for the continuing story on that well disguised conflagration that the world is too dumb to notice as it gets ready for a Ruskie and American fight in Europe.

From the blues website:

''Sloane and assistants Joseph Schmidt and David Nucifora had discarded playmaker Carlos Spencer and revamped the backline after losing three players to suspension.''

Joe Schmidt was the Backs coach at the Blues. You think he had no say in the matter.

http://www.theblues.co.nz/News/2005-4-4/Blues-have-second-row-crisis.aspx

Spencer was replaced by Tasesa Lavea (who followed him to Clermont). Goppart was in there as well.

Schmidt has made comments about Madigan (who said that Spencer was his idol as a kid) that he would prefer if he played more like Mehrtens.

Some quotes from Schmidt:

"I think it is fair to say attitude and organisation were a big part of this victory," Schmidt said.

The Blues also got a return from their remodelled team, one in which Tasesa Lavea was asked to replace Spencer.

"His brief was to give us direction and to try and play us into a position so we could launch our attacks from near their 22," said Schmidt.

It was a pressure-cooker game for Lavea who had been chosen to move up from his understudy role.

"Tasesa is not easily shaken, he is not overawed. He was excited more than nervous," Schmidt said.

and from whoever wrote the news item (bit strange as its on the Blues website).

Had Spencer been behind a pack with the same urgency and been given similar slick service by Steve Devine it was easy to imagine the impact he would have made.

ME-109 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

ME-109 wrote:I didnt say anything fly...the journo mentioned Schmidt with Carlos, doesnt mention the headcoach at all. What I found more interesting was his inability to develop the backline after the changes that happened in the blues.

It should ME.  Afterall, we always do here in Ireland, don't we

Seems to me there was a clear identification of the parties involved in this instance....

The party that hires and fires is the head coach.  He's certainly the buck-stopper when it comes to recommendations to owners.

Here's how it would have panned out if the Blues boss didn't agree with Schmidt:

"Schmidt!!  Cut it out!!!  You and Spencer better start getting along or you're sacked coz I can't work with a coach that disagrees with me and Carlos knows what he's doing.  Coach the rest of the guys if you must, but leave Carlos alone.  He knows more about the intricacies of rugby than you'll ever hope to learn, you little sanctimonius runt!"

It's all good clean fun though.  I actually secretly love that Spencer keeps coming up. It's good 606 entertainment to continuously postulate on the significance of the Blues and Spencer chapter in the event of any invitation to an All Blacks interview that Schmidt might get in the future.  Keep Carlos coming guys.  And I'll keep the old exclamation marks ready for me 'exacerbated' retorts.

Well after the Blues went down hill when Schmidt was brought on board he only lasted the three years before going to Clermont..

Sin é wrote:

Joe Schmidt was the Backs coach at the Blues. You think he had no say in the matter.

'Course he would, Sin. But I mention Kiss all the time. That's probably the first time you mentioned Sloane And it ain't even you mentioning him - it's a bloomin' quote.

ME-109 wrote:Well after the Blues went down hill when Schmidt was brought on board he only lasted the three years before going to Clermont..

Just to add...Sloane went first then Schmidt and then Nucifora....

Everyone deserves a second chance, even Joe.

ME-109 wrote:Well after the Blues went down hill when Schmidt was brought on board he only lasted the three years before going to Clermont..

Schmidt only does three years everywhere. That's his "Get out of Jail" calling card That was one good move going to Clermont, it set him up to win his two HECs and even the 6N. Always know your enemy from within. I suppose that's why all the Kiwi coaches like Ireland - close hand view of prospective future main enemies (England, France and... Italy)