Barclays Premier League 13/14 Thread Part 'x'

[It Must Be Love]

First topic message reminder :

I wouldn't mind Klopp replacing Moyes, if he does leave.

[Liam]

I honestly can't see Reus/Kroos wanting to come to utd to play under the current management. I can't see them coming anyway but why on earth would they want to come and play for Moyes. People wanted to play under Fergie, the manager themselves can persuade a player to come to a football club, Moyes will not do this for the best players. He has to go because even if we line up with Reus/Kroos/Carvalho/Shaw I can't see it improving under him. He'll just throw them out there with no game plan and hope individual brilliance saves us, like RVP did vs Olympiakos. He's been out-tacticed in every big game this year, Liverpool being the worst one where everyone could see we needed to change something after 10 mins!

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I think another manager could get better out of these players, don't get me wrong, but I think that would cover up a rebuilding job that needs to be done regardless. Say Klopp came in and got you fourth with this squad, I'd still think all the players that need to go now should be gone then (in that made up future).

Fergie bought a lot of dross if you ask me.

[Liam]

He was never the right appointment for the task of taking over Fergie. I was always willing to give him time, as long as you could see what he was trying to achieve. Its been non-existent. He's so far out of his depth. He could potentially ruin the clubs chances of CL football for years if we give him until xmas time next year. He's made so many mistakes its beyond. His excuses of 'transition' and 'we were unlucky' is just embarrassing now. For his own sake, he needs to be sacked or leave mutually. I think its clear he's lost the players as well (apart from rooney, who he put all his summer effort in trying to keep instead of trying to rebuild the squad, then handing him a 300k a week contract extension).

[mystiroakey]

I think he has even lost rooney- he just has a good agent

[Ent]

Even in the 26 year drought when Liverpool were winning everything we were the most supported club in England, the year we dropped a division we still were getting more at OT than any other club and in the modern era the way the club has marketed itself as a brand is light years ahead of its rivals. It really does make a difference. The club is pulling in £150m profit every year, that's with the debt payoff and it'll still be well over £100m next year despite no CL football.
Compare it to F1, Ferrari haven't won that for a few years, but they're still the team everyone idealises, that drivers would still want to join and what appeals to the global audience.

We will always be a big club in England, with the local support and our history - but that doesn't sell shirts in Asia or TV rights in the USA - this is where our money comes from now, this is what triggers these big sponsorship deals.

We don't make anywhere near £150 million in profits, don't know where you get that from. Operating profit (income - expenses, ignoring transfer fees in and tax issues) has oscillated around the 50 million mark the last 5 years. That is great as wages have gone up by £70 million.

This £150 million is dodgy rearranging of money from closing red football ltd and moving the tax base to the USA + the IPO. Our debt was only decreased 13% last year.

All the sponsorship deals are tied into the CL, nike pay a minimum amount so we've lost millions from them - never mind tv rights, match day revenue, prize money etc - this is a disaster for the finances of the club and can't happen a second time.

We don't have £100's of millions lying about to spend.

http://ir.manutd.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=133303&p=irol-reportsannual

[Hero]

Here's where the £150m profit comes from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24143384

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I have read that the Champions League, not being in it, next season will cost United 10% of their revenue. Not gonna kill them

[Hammersmith harrier]

Here's where the £150m profit comes from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24143384

I don't think Ent realises that that £150mil goes on transfers and wages.

[Ent]

Here's where the £150m profit comes from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24143384

I don't think Ent realises that that £150mil goes on transfers and wages.

No it doesn't, profit = income - expenses.

That £150 million is from moving money around and tax refunds due to changing the tax base to USA, it isn't real profit from increasing revenue etc. Our operating profit this year was £58 million.

Overall profit for the last 5 years reads as: profit(loss)

146,419,000; 23,313,000; 12,990,000; (47,484,000); 5,260,000

The plc reports are available on uniteds website, no need for BBC articles.

We do not in any shape or form make £150 million in profit year upon year.

[mystiroakey]

you can spend money though and still be well within the frame work of the ffp.

thats all that matters, any big club can get money- man u can go into an increased debt if it wants to and still be ok short term in regards to ffp- unlike teams like citeh, chelsea, psg and athletico

[Ent]

I'm not denying we can spend money under FFP rules, I'm disputing how much and the suggestion we regularly make £150 million quid a year in profit, why the hell would we still have any debt if we did that...

Just reading a bit about FFP, I don't think it will make a blind bit of difference.

[Hero]

Yes that's right Dolph;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26981223

Oh and that states this years profits will be around £130m too.
Yes we all understand profits = income - expense. And for all companies they reinvest that profit in renewing depreciation, investment in new channels etc, the same as which Utd by purchasing new players.

The 130m-150m means they have they have a good 100m etc every year in which they can bring in players.

[mystiroakey]

I'm not denying we can spend money under FFP rules, I'm disputing how much and the suggestion we regularly make £150 million quid a year in profit, why the hell would we still have any debt if we did that...

Just reading a bit about FFP, I don't think it will make a blind bit of difference.

profit and debt are two very different things ent. but there is no way united are making 150m a year anyway, so that is mute.

however ffp is already making a difference to teams like chelsea and citeh in the pl and almost every spanish team

[Hero]

Chelsea with the number of players they've brought in and then loaned out to Vitesse etc will be fine, they've basically already bought their team for the next 5-10 years with just a bit of tinkering (ie Costa).

[Kay Fabe]

Really routing for Liverpool this season, I've got no great affinity with any English club, I just like some depending on how they try and play the game or what players I enjoy, I've always had a major soft spot for Everton tho'...

Liverpool have been a joy to watch all season, any team who try their damndest to fit two strikers into their line up week in week out are ok in my book, I just cant get the feeling of Man City pipping them put of my head. With City having 2 games in hand and a superior goal difference and the pressure somewhat off for now since its not in their hands I can see them rack up a big goal advantage and Chelsea spoiling the party at Anfield.

I hope to God I'm wrong, with no European Football this season I feel if Liverpool didn't win it now then God knows how long it will be to be in this position again, 2 wins and a draw, on paper thats very do-able but after 11 straight wins you keep feeling a slip up is somewhere, absolutely brilliant Title race tho'

[Hero]

It's a horrible thought as a Utd fan to hope City pip Liverpool to the title.

[Ent]

I'm not denying we can spend money under FFP rules, I'm disputing how much and the suggestion we regularly make £150 million quid a year in profit, why the hell would we still have any debt if we did that...

Just reading a bit about FFP, I don't think it will make a blind bit of difference.

profit and debt are two very different things ent. but there is no way united are making 150m a year anyway, so that is mute.

however ffp is already making a difference to teams like chelsea and citeh in the pl and almost every spanish team

Yes but it you had £150 million in profit, genuine profit (which is being suggested) a year you would pay off the debt as it costs money to service. You'd literally be wasting money for no reason if you had this fantasy £150 million.

Please stop reading the BBC and read the PLCs annual financial statement, it is available on the website through the link I provided. You will then see the actual finances.

FFP I don't know as much about, but it seems to revolve around allowing a certain amount of losses per year over a 3 year period. Spending £70 million a year servicing and reducing debts hampers us in FFP, revenues dropping being out of the CL hampers us.

Before tax credits we lost £8million pounds last year, that isn't compliant with FFP - we then noted £150 million odd in tax credits and reported a huge profit, you can't do that every year.

No top club will get hit by FFP, they will just rejig the accounts, write stuff off etc so they come in under the required losses year after year - it's a nonsense.

[mystiroakey]

I'm not denying we can spend money under FFP rules, I'm disputing how much and the suggestion we regularly make £150 million quid a year in profit, why the hell would we still have any debt if we did that...

Just reading a bit about FFP, I don't think it will make a blind bit of difference.

profit and debt are two very different things ent. but there is no way united are making 150m a year anyway, so that is mute.

however ffp is already making a difference to teams like chelsea and citeh in the pl and almost every spanish team

Yes but it you had £150 million in profit, genuine profit (which is being suggested) a year you would pay off the debt as it costs money to service. You'd literally be wasting money for no reason if you had this fantasy £150 million.

Please stop reading the BBC and read the PLCs annual financial statement, it is available on the website through the link I provided. You will then see the actual finances.

FFP I don't know as much about, but it seems to revolve around allowing a certain amount of losses per year over a 3 year period. Spending £70 million a year servicing and reducing debts hampers us in FFP, revenues dropping being out of the CL hampers us.

Before tax credits we lost £8million pounds last year, that isn't compliant with FFP - we then noted £150 million odd in tax credits and reported a huge profit, you can't do that every year.

No top club will get hit by FFP, they will just rejig the accounts, write stuff off etc so they come in under the required losses year after year - it's a nonsense.

why are you asking me to read the BBC?

a couple of things you need to be aware of though.

paying off debt or not does nothing to your profit. so you truely need to understand that fact- the only thing debt comes in to when talking about profit is the servicing costs(interest)

and yes top clubs will be hit by ffp- its going to happen.

I havent read the BBc and agree with you that Man U are not making 150m in profits. I am just telling you that debt and profits are completely immaterial to each other.

debt can be owner debt, it can be bank loan debt. However FFP allows a certain amount of debt to be paid of by the owners - so in effect they pay back into capital. this increases the value of the club but redices debt. Clubs like athletico have no way of doing this and are basically screwed

[Ent]

It was a general reply as people keep linking the bbcs stories for evidence of profits.

Apologies for the confusion.

The PLC reports are actually very interesting, since the IPO the glazers have had to relist the company and therefore put up the annual financial report. Surprised no one has noticed this before.

[mystiroakey]

Borac Banja Luka
Bosnia-Herzegovina
Rudar Pjevlja Montenegro
Sarajevo Bosnia-Herzegovina Ruch Chorzow Poland
Zeljeznicar Bosnia-Herzegovina Sporting CP Portugal
CSKA Sofia Bulgaria Dinamo Bucharest Romania
Hajduk Split Croatia Rapid Bucharest Romania
Osijek Croatia Vaslui Romania
Atletico Madrid Spain Rubin Kazan Russia
Malaga Spain Partizan Serbia
Maccabi Netanya Israel Vojvodina Serbia
Shkendija 79 Macedonia Eskisehirspor Turkey
Floriana Malta Fenerbahce Turkey
Buducnost P'gorica Montenegro

these are the teams that where last hit with ffp.

athletico are now a big club- however it doesnt look like they will be for long. The sad truth of FFP is that it is protecting the big boys.. Just like the quota system in place- it seems to be doing an adverse affect

[Ent]

I'm not denying we can spend money under FFP rules, I'm disputing how much and the suggestion we regularly make £150 million quid a year in profit, why the hell would we still have any debt if we did that...

Just reading a bit about FFP, I don't think it will make a blind bit of difference.

profit and debt are two very different things ent. but there is no way united are making 150m a year anyway, so that is mute.

however ffp is already making a difference to teams like chelsea and citeh in the pl and almost every spanish team

Yes but it you had £150 million in profit, genuine profit (which is being suggested) a year you would pay off the debt as it costs money to service. You'd literally be wasting money for no reason if you had this fantasy £150 million.

Please stop reading the BBC and read the PLCs annual financial statement, it is available on the website through the link I provided. You will then see the actual finances.

FFP I don't know as much about, but it seems to revolve around allowing a certain amount of losses per year over a 3 year period. Spending £70 million a year servicing and reducing debts hampers us in FFP, revenues dropping being out of the CL hampers us.

Before tax credits we lost £8million pounds last year, that isn't compliant with FFP - we then noted £150 million odd in tax credits and reported a huge profit, you can't do that every year.

No top club will get hit by FFP, they will just rejig the accounts, write stuff off etc so they come in under the required losses year after year - it's a nonsense.

why are you asking me to read the BBC?

a couple of things you need to be aware of though.

paying off debt or not does nothing to your profit. so you truely need to understand that fact- the only thing debt comes in to when talking about profit is the servicing costs(interest)

and yes top clubs will be hit by ffp- its going to happen.

I havent read the BBc and agree with you that Man U are not making 150m in profits. I am just telling you that debt and profits are completely immaterial to each other.

debt can be owner debt, it can be bank loan debt. However FFP allows a certain amount of debt to be paid of by the owners - so in effect they pay back into capital. this increases the value of the club but redices debt. Clubs like athletico have no way of doing this and are basically screwed

They really aren't.

I am looking at uniteds financial spreadsheets for the last 5 year, they spend 60-70 million a year on "financial costs". This is servicing the debt etc - it wipes out operating profits.

It is all on the official website, this isn't some guess or amateur write up - it is Manchester uniteds plc statement and accounts.

I don't think FFP will get anyone, you just need to show you aren't losing a certain amount over 3 years - easily done by a decent accountant.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Indeed, FFP does no good for anyone but the established sides. Basically, its saying "Hey, guys, don't worry, there won't be anyone else crashing the party".

Sometimes I think about this European Super League they want to build and hope they f off and do it. Liverpool have only further proved to me that there are only a certain set of teams that will ever win the Premier League.

[Ent]

Borac Banja Luka
Bosnia-Herzegovina
Rudar Pjevlja Montenegro
Sarajevo Bosnia-Herzegovina Ruch Chorzow Poland
Zeljeznicar Bosnia-Herzegovina Sporting CP Portugal
CSKA Sofia Bulgaria Dinamo Bucharest Romania
Hajduk Split Croatia Rapid Bucharest Romania
Osijek Croatia Vaslui Romania
Atletico Madrid Spain Rubin Kazan Russia
Malaga Spain Partizan Serbia
Maccabi Netanya Israel Vojvodina Serbia
Shkendija 79 Macedonia Eskisehirspor Turkey
Floriana Malta Fenerbahce Turkey
Buducnost P'gorica Montenegro

these are the teams that where last hit with ffp.

athletico are now a big club- however it doesnt look like they will be for long. The sad truth of FFP is that it is protecting the big boys.. Just like the quota system in place- it seems to be doing an adverse affect

Yes I don't think FFP will effect the big boys/elite.

Malaga got hit as their owners decided they weren't putting anymore money into it. So you've only Atletico in there really. These guys are more worried about going out of business than complying with FFP.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Ent, and I say this out of curiosity nothing else, can you highlight which areas suggest you are vastly right and we are vastly wrong? It could, of course, well be that United are making these profits before debt repayments and also as a consequence of not going massive in the transfer market for some time.

[Ent]

Indeed, FFP does no good for anyone but the established sides. Basically, its saying "Hey, guys, don't worry, there won't be anyone else crashing the party".

Sometimes I think about this European Super League they want to build and hope they f off and do it. Liverpool have only further proved to me that there are only a certain set of teams that will ever win the Premier League.

It's a good idea just badly implemented.

Just means there will be some very well paid accountants.

[mystiroakey]

We will see on may the 5th if UEAF are going to stand by the statement that clubs cannot overly sponsor themselves through parent company. If they do take the stand PSG and Citeh could be in trouble.

Well lets see anyway. I like the rest am not holding my breath

[GSC]

FFP is to protect the elite.

You really think UEFA wants to urine off Barca or Real when the big clubs keep making noises about setting up their own CL

[Ent]

Ent, and I say this out of curiosity nothing else, can you highlight which areas suggest you are vastly right and we are vastly wrong? It could, of course, well be that United are making these profits before debt repayments and also as a consequence of not going massive in the transfer market for some time.

You can just read the plc report, the club lost 48 million in 2010.

Apart from a one off tax credit there haven't been big profits over the last 5 years. Now a lot of this is accounting etc as revenues have increased by 90 million in the last 5 years (up to 2013). Operating profit is steady at 50-60 million, that is before player sales and things like debt servicing.

That is with us spending £40 million a year on transfers (like arsenal we average out the cost of the transfer fee over the duration of the contract) on average and 180 million a year on wages (employee benefit expenses).

Now the club could well have money tied up etc but there is nothing here that suggests to me we are suddenly going to spend like real madrid.

I am no financial guru so I could just be misunderstanding it but we don't make £150 million a year, that much is clear.

[FootballLight]

That looks good on paper but Moyes is getting nothing out of most of those players.

Only De Gea has had a good season, Rooney has been very patchy and Welbeck has scored a few more goals - everyone else has been worse than last year, much worse.

A year ago you would have said we need a midfielder and a left back, now you look through the side and we look like we need 2 fullbacks a centre half, 2 centre mids and some wide players. How do we explain that decline in 1 year?

This side under moyes with a new left back and centre midfielder will still be terrible.

Those are just the one's I'd keep personally for squad reasons, a lot of them anyway. Some of them are wanting to be playing with top class players, not average mid table players. Like Rooney will want to play with players like Kroos, Koke etc. Not Nani, Young etc.

I don't really think any Man United players can say they have had a good season. Some have been half decent but no one for United have stood out at all and none look good enough for Champions League just yet.

This is only because people didn't really complain about any of them players last season really, but they haven't performed under Moyes. That's the only way I'd sack him. The only reason I'd have to sack him is because that he hasn't made his players perform, they've been poor. I knew that they were going to have a poor season though, but I didn't think it would be this bad. I thought the players would perform, but it would be a rebuilding task. That's all. But it seems not.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Listening to 606, Ian Wright consistently kept saying that managers should make their players better players. He was talking about how Martinez does that and how Wenger did (and still does). I'm not sure its strictly true with a club like United, or the same for City and Chelsea. Rodgers has done it fantastically, but I think they'd be expecting to shop in a slightly better market now where that improvement is hard to drag out.

[Ent]

I think you should make players 'better'.

Now that might be getting the best out of them by playing them in a better side, in a different position, getting them fitter, more motivated, increasing their tactical awaremess.

For others it might be improving their technique.

It can mean a lot of things and it is a managers job to do it, players can always improve.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

True, but in the way he meant it basically belied that being better was anything but "attacking more". It also had the insistence that having a bad season made someone a bad manager. It also ignored the work Moyes had done at Everton because Martinez has taken them on a bit more.

[Liam]

I hope people like Powell and Lindgard and some of the other emerging youth players at utd get a good run out next year. Part of me feels we should call them back now and give them a run out the last few games. They're in no way worse than Young/cleverly/nani/fellaini etc!

That's why I want Klopp also. He invests heavily with the youth team and always gives youth a chance. I think Januzaj could progress like Sterling has this season next season under Klopp. I see him stalling under Moyes if anything.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

According to Twitter hes being sacked. Thats from the Mail, Telegraph, Guardian and Times

[Hammersmith harrier]

True, but in the way he meant it basically belied that being better was anything but "attacking more". It also had the insistence that having a bad season made someone a bad manager. It also ignored the work Moyes had done at Everton because Martinez has taken them on a bit more.

Not to take anything away from Martinez but I do think he's been a bit fortunate this year, everything seemed to fall perfectly into place for him. The loan signings of players not available last season like Barry, Lukaku and Deulofeu, the Fellaini money that made it all possible in the first place. This season has been very unique for a number of seasons and I do think the status quo will be restored somewhat next year.

[The Special Juan]

Oh my club,what have you done?

[The Special Juan]

"Ferguson’s support of Moyes is also understood to have been eroded by the poor performances and results" - I think that's key.

Ancelotti might be available if Real don't win the CL, Klopp might also be about. No to Mourinho.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Every major paper reporting he's being sacked imminently

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Suggestions that Giggs will take over till the end of the season

[Ent]

Wow, breaking on all the major sources now.

Nothing official but looks like the writings on the wall.

As awful as he has been I feel sorry for him, the club is in turmoil.

I bet Bobby Charlton is delighted Mourinho hasn't been here misbehaving and ruining our good name...

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Do you know what, I bet most United fans and Bobby Charlton are happy they don't have Mourinho. He's been a sad little swine all season and doesn't suit a club that tries to have some class.

[mystiroakey]

losing at everton was the writing on the wall.

[The Special Juan]

Do you know what, I bet most United fans and Bobby Charlton are happy they don't have Mourinho. He's been a sad little swine all season and doesn't suit a club that tries to have some class.

I am. I don't like him and I don't like his football.

[Ent]

losing at everton was the writing on the wall.

It was the way they lost, 11 days to prepare whilst everton were on there 3rd game in 8 days etc etc

Everton are better than us, no shame in losing to them - plenty of shame in the way we performed.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Van Gaal fav to be next manager.

Sky Bet:

Van Gaal 7/2
Klopp 6/1
Giggs 14/1
Fergie 16/1
Simeone 18/1
Conte 20/1

[Ent]

Do you know what, I bet most United fans and Bobby Charlton are happy they don't have Mourinho. He's been a sad little swine all season and doesn't suit a club that tries to have some class.

I am.  I don't like him and I don't like his football.

We'd be challenging for the title if he was in charge.

Instead we are staring into the abyss, potentially sacking the manager with 4 games left in the season - the club would be in absolute turmoil.

Oh but Mourinho is a bit of a tinky at times, can't be having that.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Fergie was a git, but he understood prestige and class. Mourinho has none. I think the United fans of the terrace and the United fans who have lived before the Fergie era would be disgusted by Mourinho.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Moyes' sacking is another indictment of the modern footballer for me. I think Sunderland players showed it and now United; they will hide behind anything to block the blame.

[Ent]

The telegraph are reporting Giggs is set to be long term manager.

Wow. Just wow.

[GSC]

Giggs as long term manager is nothing more than the knee jerkers deserve

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