HC final - Saracens vs Toulon - Cardiff - Wilko vs Farrell.....

First topic message reminder :

Should be a cracker (England vs France) with two of the best teams in the NH playing each other in a celebration of rugby, can't wait to get there and soak up the atmosphere before, during and after the game, roll on 24th May.

When Irish teams travel to say London, how many of their fans are actually travelling in from say Cork or Dublin... how many are simply Irish people living in London?

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:wonder how many times, between now and the final in 4 weeks time, we are going to have to read that Saracens aren't a proper club because they dont have as many fans as the irish provinces.

Just imagine how many more times it would be if there was an irish team actually involved...  

Few clubs are able to match the support the Irish provinces get, so I wouldn't expect many to even try and match them.
What I do find surprising is that a team like Saracens can get to the final of a Heineken Cup without attracting a few bandwagoners.

Saracens, in case you missed it, aren't a particularly fashionable team in the AP, most people quite enjoy 'loving to hate' them. However, they are without doubt the team to beat in Europe this year and I think most people in England respect what they've achieved and will be supporting them in the final. I know I will be, and that's something you won't hear from a Tigers supporter too often.

Scrumpy wrote:Why have English/French clubs got to match the support of the Irish Provinces again?

If Sarries/Toulon only bring along 5000 fans each then so what, they are in the European final.

I agree. Let's declare the Irish to have the 'best' fans and perhaps then we can discuss the forthcoming matches involving Saracens, Toulon, Bath and Northampton.

lostinwales wrote:Irish provinces have enjoyed a hard earned period of dominance in european rugby, but now that period may well be coming to an end, just like Leicester/Wasps period a few years back.

Whatever about Leicester, Munster are nothing like Wasps. Munster have played the most games in Europe in the Heineken Cup. On yesterday's evidence, I expect Munster to continue to challenge the Toulons & Saracens of this world. Toulon seem to be built around someone who is going to retire. Lets see what happens next year.

And the end result is small but very vocal bunch of irish supporters seemingly blaming everything else for the failure of the provinces this year and proclaiming the death of euro rugby. This in turn leads to the usual English suspects getting over excited and chaos on the forum.

As for the death of euro rugby we have a final made up of the defending champions and the current top English(mostly) team, a team who have been breaking scoring records on the way. They have both earned their places.

I don't think the Irish provinces were a failure this year. Its quite an achievement making the last 8, bearing in mind the financial muscle we are up against. I've no doubt that with a home draw in QFs or semis, there might have been different finalists. But that is luck and Munster have been particularly unlukey is rarely getting a home semi (2 out of 11).

I don't think anyone can say they have the best fans until they enter the Versfeld or Newlands on game day. SA is the best supported rugby nation in the world, second to none.

fa0019 wrote:When Irish teams travel to say London, how many of their fans are actually travelling in from say Cork or Dublin... how many are simply Irish people living in London?

I don't know, but apparently 8000 Munster fans were in Marseille yesterday and they came from all over Europe. You'd probably get double that for a London game.

For the second year running there will be no Rabo Irish finalist even under the old ERC rules.

and the times they are a'changin'...

And I don't like it either - now that Mammon has taken charge.

I have heard the words of 'shocked and quins validating their capitalist notions.

Meanwhile the heart and soul of competitive sport in rugby is slowly being extinguished.
Plus ca change.

fa0019 wrote:I don't think anyone can say they have the best fans until they enter the Versfeld or Newlands on game day. SA is the best supported rugby nation in the world, second to none.

Interesting that ... but CJ Stander's family never stop raving about the Munster support and Thomond Park. His father-in-law in particular Ryk Neethling (father of Olympic swimmer) was particularly impressed.

Is the new tournament going to be any different from the HC in reailty?

Same old same old for English and French clubs.  Rabo its hardly going to impact bar those at the bottom of the table... oh and they get more money.

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I don't think anyone can say they have the best fans until they enter the Versfeld or Newlands on game day. SA is the best supported rugby nation in the world, second to none.

Interesting that ... but CJ Stander's family never stop raving about the Munster support and Thomond Park. His father-in-law in particular Ryk Neethling (father of Olympic swimmer) was particularly impressed.

I think any comparison from the Standers should be taken with a pinch of salt though. Trying to justify his defection IMO... "the I didn't do it for the money angle/lie"

No doubt both are red-blooded passionate clubs though.

"Munster have played the most games in Europe in the Heineken Cup."

I'm not surprised seeing as they have always had free pass into the Comp, yes they have done well to get out of the groups etc but all good things come to an end just like Munster did yesterday.   

fa0019 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I don't think anyone can say they have the best fans until they enter the Versfeld or Newlands on game day. SA is the best supported rugby nation in the world, second to none.

Interesting that ... but CJ Stander's family never stop raving about the Munster support and Thomond Park. His father-in-law in particular Ryk Neethling (father of Olympic swimmer) was particularly impressed.

I think any comparison from the Standers should be taken with a pinch of salt though. Trying to justify his defection IMO... "the I didn't do it for the money angle/lie"

No doubt both are red-blooded passionate clubs though.

Stander hasn't defected yet. Until then he is no worse than Bryan Habana, John Smit, BJ Botha and lots of other Saffers who have come to Europe to earn a living.

By the way, in an interview in Saturday's Irish Times, he said that he was looking to move to Europe anyway when Munster came in for him as there were too many ahead of him in the Bulls. It was only afterwards that he realised he could become Irish qualified.

Sin é wrote:
Whatever about Leicester, Munster are nothing like Wasps. Munster have played the most games in Europe in the Heineken Cup. On yesterday's evidence, I expect Munster to continue to challenge the Toulons & Saracens of this world.

 Well unlike Munster, Leicester haven't played in the baby Amlin Europe league. How many clubs can say that.


 

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I don't think anyone can say they have the best fans until they enter the Versfeld or Newlands on game day. SA is the best supported rugby nation in the world, second to none.

Interesting that ... but CJ Stander's family never stop raving about the Munster support and Thomond Park. His father-in-law in particular Ryk Neethling (father of Olympic swimmer) was particularly impressed.

I think any comparison from the Standers should be taken with a pinch of salt though. Trying to justify his defection IMO... "the I didn't do it for the money angle/lie"

No doubt both are red-blooded passionate clubs though.

Stander hasn't defected yet. Until then he is no worse than Bryan Habana, John Smit, BJ Botha and lots of other Saffers who have come to Europe to earn a living.

By the way, in an interview in Saturday's Irish Times, he said that he was looking to move to Europe anyway when Munster came in for him as there were too many ahead of him in the Bulls. It was only afterwards that he realised he could become Irish qualified.

As I understand part of his contract was to pledge himself to Ireland. The boks tried to call him up in 2012 before he left and he declined the training camp because of it. His project player contract had to be ratified and approved by the IRFU. Hence why it was a far better contract than normally offered and why the bulls didn't even bother to counter offer.

Different to say Botha at Saracens (journeyman semi pro), Strauss at Leinster (a little better but ran his course at Cheetahs), Habana at Toulon (capped international at end of career).

Stander hasn't pledged himself to Ireland. If anything all he has stated how much of a proud SA he is. You as well as none of us have no idea what is in his contract.

Fa knows it all...even the history of Irish rugby...

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Stander hasn't pledged himself to Ireland. If anything he has stared how much of a proud SA he is. You as well as none of us have no idea what is in his contract.

We do know this.

It had to be ratified by the IRFU under the project player status.
He refused a call up to the boks because of it prior to him leaving the bulls (but post contract signing).

Also Stander only signed a two year contract at first... If he was brought in to play for Ireland why not give him a 3 year?

This is getting rediculous. It seems any uncapped player the provinces sign is now a "project player". Backrow is probably our best position in terms of depth... Why would we need to bring in foreign players there?

fa0019 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I don't think anyone can say they have the best fans until they enter the Versfeld or Newlands on game day. SA is the best supported rugby nation in the world, second to none.

Interesting that ... but CJ Stander's family never stop raving about the Munster support and Thomond Park. His father-in-law in particular Ryk Neethling (father of Olympic swimmer) was particularly impressed.

I think any comparison from the Standers should be taken with a pinch of salt though. Trying to justify his defection IMO... "the I didn't do it for the money angle/lie"

No doubt both are red-blooded passionate clubs though.

Stander hasn't defected yet. Until then he is no worse than Bryan Habana, John Smit, BJ Botha and lots of other Saffers who have come to Europe to earn a living.

By the way, in an interview in Saturday's Irish Times, he said that he was looking to move to Europe anyway when Munster came in for him as there were too many ahead of him in the Bulls. It was only afterwards that he realised he could become Irish qualified.

As I understand part of his contract was to pledge himself to Ireland. The boks tried to call him up in 2012 before he left and he declined the training camp because of it. His project player contract had to be ratified and approved by the IRFU. Hence why it was a far better contract than normally offered and why the bulls didn't even bother to counter offer.

Different to say Botha at Saracens (journeyman semi pro), Strauss at Leinster (a little better but ran his course at Cheetahs), Habana at Toulon (capped international at end of career).

According to Stander himself:

One imagines he had easier conversations with his family. His father Jannie had played on the wing for the South Western Districts. “He’s a big Blue Bulls supporter, and he’s also a big Springbok supporter. I sat down with him and said: ‘There’s about 20 guys in front of me and Munster are giving me a chance.’ Playing for Ireland wasn’t even in the picture then. I just wanted to go overseas. He said: ‘I will support you full on. You go and do your best’.”

From what I read, he was leaving SA anyway.

The Botha I was referring to was our BJ Botha. He left SA a long time ago.

Why is this thread littered with Irish rugby conundrums?

They're not in the final. Can you talk about them elsewhere.

ME-109 wrote:Fa knows it all...even the history of Irish rugby...

I would never say I know it all... for instance I know nothing of the history of the BNP nor uniforms of the third reich... when I need to find out though I will surely give you a PM.

fa0019 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Stander hasn't pledged himself to Ireland. If anything he has stared how much of a proud SA he is. You as well as none of us have no idea what is in his contract.

We do know this.

It had to be ratified by the IRFU under the project player status.
He refused a call up to the boks because of it prior to him leaving the bulls (but post contract signing).

He could have come anyway as Munster had a spare NIQ spot (NIQ then were BJ & Doug with Casey Lauala coming in also. Van Den Heefer has recently come to fill the 4th spot, so 2 years ago, he could have come anyway.

fa0019 wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Fa knows it all...even the history of Irish rugby...

I would never say I know it all... for instance I know nothing of the history of the BNP nor uniforms of the third reich... when I need to find out though I will surely give you a PM.

Ik weet zeker dat je zou er alles van weten in South Africa....

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I don't think anyone can say they have the best fans until they enter the Versfeld or Newlands on game day. SA is the best supported rugby nation in the world, second to none.

Interesting that ... but CJ Stander's family never stop raving about the Munster support and Thomond Park. His father-in-law in particular Ryk Neethling (father of Olympic swimmer) was particularly impressed.

I think any comparison from the Standers should be taken with a pinch of salt though. Trying to justify his defection IMO... "the I didn't do it for the money angle/lie"

No doubt both are red-blooded passionate clubs though.

Stander hasn't defected yet. Until then he is no worse than Bryan Habana, John Smit, BJ Botha and lots of other Saffers who have come to Europe to earn a living.

By the way, in an interview in Saturday's Irish Times, he said that he was looking to move to Europe anyway when Munster came in for him as there were too many ahead of him in the Bulls. It was only afterwards that he realised he could become Irish qualified.

As I understand part of his contract was to pledge himself to Ireland. The boks tried to call him up in 2012 before he left and he declined the training camp because of it. His project player contract had to be ratified and approved by the IRFU. Hence why it was a far better contract than normally offered and why the bulls didn't even bother to counter offer.

Different to say Botha at Saracens (journeyman semi pro), Strauss at Leinster (a little better but ran his course at Cheetahs), Habana at Toulon (capped international at end of career).

According to Stander himself:

One imagines he had easier conversations with his family. His father Jannie had played on the wing for the South Western Districts. “He’s a big Blue Bulls supporter, and he’s also a big Springbok supporter. I sat down with him and said: ‘There’s about 20 guys in front of me and Munster are giving me a chance.’ Playing for Ireland wasn’t even in the picture then. I just wanted to go overseas. He said: ‘I will support you full on. You go and do your best’.”

From what I read, he was leaving SA anyway.

The Botha I was referring to was our BJ Botha. He left SA a long time ago.

the 20 guys in front of him??? Interesting comment given he was first choice openside for the bulls in 2012 the year he left. Wasn't exactly holding the tackle bags for the reserves now was he.

ME-109 wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Fa knows it all...even the history of Irish rugby...

I would never say I know it all... for instance I know nothing of the history of the BNP nor uniforms of the third reich... when I need to find out though I will surely give you a PM.

Ik weet zeker dat je zou er alles van weten in South Africa....

Though you'd know that SA was on the side of the Allies. I'm not South African anyhow. I live there. Born and raised in UK.

Look at the Irish getting all upset.

Where is the warning from the MODs to stay on topic?

  

Personally I'm dumbfounded how the mods think its fine that persons who thinks its cool to name themselves after a nazi warplane should be allowed to do so.

fa0019 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I don't think anyone can say they have the best fans until they enter the Versfeld or Newlands on game day. SA is the best supported rugby nation in the world, second to none.

Interesting that ... but CJ Stander's family never stop raving about the Munster support and Thomond Park. His father-in-law in particular Ryk Neethling (father of Olympic swimmer) was particularly impressed.

I think any comparison from the Standers should be taken with a pinch of salt though. Trying to justify his defection IMO... "the I didn't do it for the money angle/lie"

No doubt both are red-blooded passionate clubs though.

Stander hasn't defected yet. Until then he is no worse than Bryan Habana, John Smit, BJ Botha and lots of other Saffers who have come to Europe to earn a living.

By the way, in an interview in Saturday's Irish Times, he said that he was looking to move to Europe anyway when Munster came in for him as there were too many ahead of him in the Bulls. It was only afterwards that he realised he could become Irish qualified.

As I understand part of his contract was to pledge himself to Ireland. The boks tried to call him up in 2012 before he left and he declined the training camp because of it. His project player contract had to be ratified and approved by the IRFU. Hence why it was a far better contract than normally offered and why the bulls didn't even bother to counter offer.

Different to say Botha at Saracens (journeyman semi pro), Strauss at Leinster (a little better but ran his course at Cheetahs), Habana at Toulon (capped international at end of career).

According to Stander himself:

One imagines he had easier conversations with his family. His father Jannie had played on the wing for the South Western Districts. “He’s a big Blue Bulls supporter, and he’s also a big Springbok supporter. I sat down with him and said: ‘There’s about 20 guys in front of me and Munster are giving me a chance.’ Playing for Ireland wasn’t even in the picture then. I just wanted to go overseas. He said: ‘I will support you full on. You go and do your best’.”

From what I read, he was leaving SA anyway.

The Botha I was referring to was our BJ Botha. He left SA a long time ago.

the 20 guys in front of him??? Interesting comment given he was first choice openside for the bulls in 2012 the year he left. Wasn't exactly holding the tackle bags for the reserves now was he.

I don't think he was first choice. He was on the bench a lot and got a few starts when the TriNations were on. He played a fair bit in the Currie Cup.

fa0019 wrote:Personally I'm dumbfounded how the mods think its fine that persons who thinks its cool to name themselves after a nazi warplane should be allowed to do so.

I don't have a problem with that, it was a fine piece of machinery until the Brits built the Spitfire and Hurricane to whip its ass.

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I don't think anyone can say they have the best fans until they enter the Versfeld or Newlands on game day. SA is the best supported rugby nation in the world, second to none.

Interesting that ... but CJ Stander's family never stop raving about the Munster support and Thomond Park. His father-in-law in particular Ryk Neethling (father of Olympic swimmer) was particularly impressed.

I think any comparison from the Standers should be taken with a pinch of salt though. Trying to justify his defection IMO... "the I didn't do it for the money angle/lie"

No doubt both are red-blooded passionate clubs though.

Stander hasn't defected yet. Until then he is no worse than Bryan Habana, John Smit, BJ Botha and lots of other Saffers who have come to Europe to earn a living.

By the way, in an interview in Saturday's Irish Times, he said that he was looking to move to Europe anyway when Munster came in for him as there were too many ahead of him in the Bulls. It was only afterwards that he realised he could become Irish qualified.

Nonsense, how you can compare Habana and the like who has given their all for the Springboks with a guy who decided he isn't going to make it in SA at such a young age is ludicrous.

Where is the warning from the MODs to stay on topic?

It seems very strange that they think its ok for a thread about the biggest club game in the NH to be de-railed by the ramblings of a few disgruntled supporters not represented in the final, unless of course they are receiving personal emails to cool it?

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I don't think anyone can say they have the best fans until they enter the Versfeld or Newlands on game day. SA is the best supported rugby nation in the world, second to none.

Interesting that ... but CJ Stander's family never stop raving about the Munster support and Thomond Park. His father-in-law in particular Ryk Neethling (father of Olympic swimmer) was particularly impressed.

I think any comparison from the Standers should be taken with a pinch of salt though. Trying to justify his defection IMO... "the I didn't do it for the money angle/lie"

No doubt both are red-blooded passionate clubs though.

Stander hasn't defected yet. Until then he is no worse than Bryan Habana, John Smit, BJ Botha and lots of other Saffers who have come to Europe to earn a living.

By the way, in an interview in Saturday's Irish Times, he said that he was looking to move to Europe anyway when Munster came in for him as there were too many ahead of him in the Bulls. It was only afterwards that he realised he could become Irish qualified.

As I understand part of his contract was to pledge himself to Ireland. The boks tried to call him up in 2012 before he left and he declined the training camp because of it. His project player contract had to be ratified and approved by the IRFU. Hence why it was a far better contract than normally offered and why the bulls didn't even bother to counter offer.

Different to say Botha at Saracens (journeyman semi pro), Strauss at Leinster (a little better but ran his course at Cheetahs), Habana at Toulon (capped international at end of career).

According to Stander himself:

One imagines he had easier conversations with his family. His father Jannie had played on the wing for the South Western Districts. “He’s a big Blue Bulls supporter, and he’s also a big Springbok supporter. I sat down with him and said: ‘There’s about 20 guys in front of me and Munster are giving me a chance.’ Playing for Ireland wasn’t even in the picture then. I just wanted to go overseas. He said: ‘I will support you full on. You go and do your best’.”

From what I read, he was leaving SA anyway.

The Botha I was referring to was our BJ Botha. He left SA a long time ago.

the 20 guys in front of him??? Interesting comment given he was first choice openside for the bulls in 2012 the year he left. Wasn't exactly holding the tackle bags for the reserves now was he.

I don't think he was first choice. He was on the bench a lot and got a few starts when the TriNations were on. He played a fair bit in the Currie Cup.

Have a look if you want. He was the first choice openside for the bulls in the 2012 SR season.

I also read he said he at 190cm he was told by Meyer he was too small... interesting its the same height as Frans Louw and taller than Kolisi by 5cm.

Its simply excuses.

I respect he made the decision he made, but not his excuses. Say it how it is... he was offered a huge contract, values at which few South Africans can comprehend.

Scrumpy wrote:Where is the warning from the MODs to stay on topic?

It seems very strange that they think its ok for a thread about the biggest club game in the NH to be de-railed by the ramblings of a few disgruntled supporters not represented in the final, unless of course they are receiving personal emails to cool it?

It's more or less an Irish run section of the forum these days. So don't expect to find accountability.

What happened to ScarletSpiderman? Hew as one of the few good Moderators.

fa0019 wrote:Personally I'm dumbfounded how the mods think its fine that persons who thinks its cool to name themselves after a nazi warplane should be allowed to do so.

  I'm claiming Godwin's Law   

Scrumpy wrote:Where is the warning from the MODs to stay on topic?

Dont you have anything positive to contribute rather than whinging about the MODs all the time? You are like a little girl in a playground. Get a grip.

Scrumpy wrote:Where is the warning from the MODs to stay on topic?

Make a list of everyone that is off topic, I am not going to read through this whole thread.

fa0019 wrote:

Have a look if you want. He was the first choice openside for the bulls in the 2012 SR season.

I also read he said he at 190cm he was told by Meyer he was too small... interesting its the same height as Frans Louw and taller than Kolisi by 5cm.

Its simply excuses.

I respect he made the decision he made, but not his excuses. Say it how it is... he was offered a huge contract, values at which few South Africans can comprehend.

I can't look it up now, but as far as I can recall, he was mainly a bench option for the Bulls in 2012.

If he was after the money, he would have gone to an English or French club. I do remember him saying that he was pretty flattered that such a big European Club (Province!) could be interested in recruiting him. It probably helped that Limerick has a 50m pool where the Irish elite swim squad train as his wife, a swimmer, is trying to make the next Olympics.

Munster would probably suit him as a farmboy as well, as Munster is fairly rural.

There is a fair few, why some people can't wish good luck to the two teams in the final is beyond me, I thought rugby was a gentlemans game.

No need for all the bitterness flying around today.

Scrumpy wrote:There is a fair few, why some people can't wish good luck to the two teams in the final is beyond me, I thought rugby was a gentlemans game.

No need for all the bitterness flying around today.

good luck to both teams in the final, even if they are extreme unlikeable!

Didnt know you had to like the teams in the final. Especially when they represent everything wrong with European rugby right now.

Hope they both lose.

Why do people have such a chip on their shoulders about Sarries and Toulon?

In my eyes Ulster and Munster are no different, all want to make as much money as possible in this era of pro sport and why shouldn't they?

I hope Sarries and Toulon put on a show to remember.

Vs Clermont was the first time Brown,Burger and Billy had started together. I think it's a very strong backrow - will be key to beating Toulon. Last year we were outmuscled. We should be a tougher prospect this year.

Burger has been getting the plaudits but Brits has been on fire in the last few matches. When Brits is playing well, Sarries generally do well.

Would be ideal for us to play Toulon next week! Keeping key men fit is going to be tough - fortunately our buffer at the top of the AP allows us the luxury to rest players and manage our squad for the big games to come. Still a loss to of pretty much any player would hit us hard.

The Me-109 was a fine aircraft. The name might just be linked to a certain coach currently running the Irish national team. The bill hicks on this (and related threads) really does rival some of the Anglo Welsh stuff in the past.

because they have bought success.
They are both manufactured teams.
Both teams have had horrible routes to the final. One the benefactor of some really poor officiating the other just strangles the life out of teams and relies on drop goals and penalties. Rugby's version of Chelski, without the dodgy source of wealth.
Both teams are run by money hungry guys with worrying visions for the game.

They are just two particularly horrible teams.

Do you want Salt and Vinegar with those Guns?   

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why is this thread littered with Irish rugby conundrums?

They're not in the final. Can you talk about them elsewhere.

Go back to quinsforevers post on Page 1. He hung out the rancid bait, now its being taken.

Scrumpy wrote:Do you want Salt and Vinegar with those Guns?   

Zzzz. Post something rugby related.