HC final - Saracens vs Toulon - Cardiff - Wilko vs Farrell.....

First topic message reminder :

Should be a cracker (England vs France) with two of the best teams in the NH playing each other in a celebration of rugby, can't wait to get there and soak up the atmosphere before, during and after the game, roll on 24th May.

i'm going to go to the final too. will be great. loads of tickets being re-hawked on viagogo.

and notch, none of the irish centric stuff is in relation to my post. bit silly of you to attempt to make it look so. the only person who took the bait was you!

Who do we think will ref this one? Surely it is Owens or Rolland.

Unfortunately the refs decisions/interpretation of proceedings do shape the outcome in such a significant manner plus they also shape the sort of encounter it will be.

In my opinion I would say as refs - Owens and Rolland are chalk and cheese. One generally allows a game to flow better but allows a real battle at the breakdown whilst the other is more strict and ready to stop play at any moment. Get on the wrong side of Rolland's interpretation of the game at the peril because he'll ping you off the field.

Now it's blatantly obvious which ref I would prefer. Sarries do struggle when Rolland is the ref for whatever reason, perhaps it's do with his interpretation of the game I am unsure.

The vast majority of the players who will take place in the final speak English. I don't think a French speaking ref is necessary which will hopefully mean Owens gets the nod.

I believe Sarries are marketing the tickets as 'The Clash of the Cash'   

Sin é wrote:I believe Sarries are marketing the tickets as 'The Clash of the Cash'   

          

The thing that makes it so funny is the tedious relentlessness. Oo how my sides are splitting.

Do people think this game will sell out ?

It was an amazing atmosphere in Cardiff when Leinster beat Saints, is this one going to be a bit of a damp squib in comparison ?

I can see there being a hell of a lot more neutrals at this one

I have been to 10 finals, neutrals usually outnumber the partisan in the bigger stadiums.

LondonTiger wrote:I have been to 10 finals, neutrals usually outnumber the partisan in the bigger stadiums.

Really ? I'd be surprised if that was the case when Leinster were playing Saints.

I thought it was. I would also argue that the Munster Biarritz game had more neutrals - even though mythology now tells us there were 2bn Munster fans in Cardiff that day.

It's always an amazing occasion because of the neutral fans. They add so much colour.

In 2012 Ulster and Leinster fans both travelled in absolutely massive numbers but it elevated it to another level to see the Biarritz fans, the Toulouse fans etc. in the stadium singing their songs as well. As well as Kiwis, Saffers, fans of English clubs etc.

munkian wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I have been to 10 finals, neutrals usually outnumber the partisan in the bigger stadiums.

Really ? I'd be surprised if that was the case when Leinster were playing Saints.

Not from where I was sitting but there was a decent amount of neutrals too. Seemed to be quite a lot of Spanish.

LondonTiger wrote:I thought it was. I would also argue that the Munster Biarritz game had more neutrals - even though mythology now tells us there were 2bn Munster fans in Cardiff that day.

If they were neutrals there, they were all wearing red. Thats the season that Munster sold 90K jerseys! (average sales for Munster, which is still the best selling jersey in the UK & Ireland is about 24K p.a.)

In the 08 final there were a fair few Leicester fans in the crowd, but again I'd say that most were wearing red.

So the Irish provinces have the history, the large numbers of fanatical followers, the successful merchandise operations, beneficial tax agreements and close support from their union (which is all, truthfully, wonderful) and yet there are lots of excuses about not being able to compete financially with English and French teams.

I just wonder sometimes how it all adds up.

People shouldn't complain too much. Be thankful that even clubs like Ulster, Exeter & the Dragons with their 10,000 fans average per game and limited market appeal in the UK have bigger financial power then the Stormers & Bulls etc who bring in on ave. about 35,000-40,000 fans per game and are the 2 biggest sporting clubs in a country of 50MM people with huge merchandise appeal domestically.

SA clubs don't even bother counter-offering these days when a player gets a contract offer from Europe.

Because they aren't bankrolled by millionaires operating at a huge financial loss would be my first guess

fa0019 wrote:People shouldn't complain too much. Be thankful that even clubs like Ulster, Exeter & the Dragons with their 10,000 fans average per game and limited market appeal in the UK have bigger financial power then the Stormers & Bulls etc who bring in on ave. about 35,000-40,000 fans per game and are the 2 biggest sporting clubs in a country of 50MM people with huge merchandise appeal domestically.

SA clubs don't even bother counter-offering these days when a player gets a contract offer from Europe.

Yeah, Dragons really don't get 10,000 average per game....not sure why we were mentioned or where you got that figure from ?

I don't think we can't compete with English clubs. That might change in the future but over the past few seasons I would say its only the richest English clubs who have bigger budgets than us and we're much more in line with the mid-table to Top 4 English clubs.

I mean in terms of everything, not just player salaries. We're roughly able to be around about the English salary cap. The big French clubs can spend more than both the English and the Irish. Right now the Irish provinces and most of the English are about on a par financially I would say, with the exception of a few English clubs that are run at a big loss.

Whether changes in European rugby make a difference to that remains to be seen.

Come off it munkian. Every ones the Dragons are the worst contenders for sweeping players off their feet and dazzling them with massive paychecks.

HammerofThunor wrote:Come off it munkian. Every ones the Dragons are the worst contenders for sweeping players off their feet and dazzling them with massive paychecks.

True dat, we are the Bath of South East Wales

Notch wrote:I don't think we can't compete with English clubs. That might change in the future but over the past few seasons I would say its only the richest English clubs who have bigger budgets than us and we're much more in line with the mid-table to Top 4 English clubs.

I mean in terms of everything, not just player salaries. We're roughly able to be around about the English salary cap. The big French clubs can spend more than both the English and the Irish. Right now the Irish provinces and most of the English are about on a par financially I would say, with the exception of a few English clubs that are run at a big loss.

Whether changes in European rugby make a difference to that remains to be seen.

According to one of the Ulster posters (Geoff?) one of the big wigs at Ulster said the player salaries at the Provinces was comparable with the English cap. I think this WAS supposed to include the central contracts. That was from a couple of years ago. No idea how accurate (is similar within a few 100k or 1M? Has it gone up? Down?, etc) it is now but there is certainly no 'evidence' that the Provinces don't match the English salary cap. The Scottish teams do.

munkian wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Come off it munkian. Every ones the Dragons are the worst contenders for sweeping players off their feet and dazzling them with massive paychecks.

True dat, we are the Bath of South East Wales

  

NB: Does this "  " come across as laughing AT someone or WITH them?

Yep. Thats where we were under the old ERC and where we are now.

I don't know what the figures look like for next season. I believe the provinces have had some difficult planning player recruitment etc. for next season as the IRFU had imposed a cut in their budgets if there was no European Rugby, but we're likely to see an initial raise in the budget instead if this competition is pulling in more money.

Whether we are still level pegging with the English in budgetary terms from next season on, I don't know. Their share of the European pot has increased but they still have 8 more teams than us to split it between. I can see the likes of Saracens and Bath overtaking us but remaining roughly level with most English clubs to be honest.

munkian wrote:

fa0019 wrote:People shouldn't complain too much. Be thankful that even clubs like Ulster, Exeter & the Dragons with their 10,000 fans average per game and limited market appeal in the UK have bigger financial power then the Stormers & Bulls etc who bring in on ave. about 35,000-40,000 fans per game and are the 2 biggest sporting clubs in a country of 50MM people with huge merchandise appeal domestically.

SA clubs don't even bother counter-offering these days when a player gets a contract offer from Europe.

Yeah, Dragons really don't get 10,000 average per game....not sure why we were mentioned or where you got that figure from ?

Just picked some medium of the road clubs in the UK thats all. How many do you get 5000.... still probably have more financial power then the biggest in SA.

Weird.
Still can't pick who I want to win, and also who I think will win. The positives virtually equal out, as do the negatives.

If all else fails, there is always the default selection of picking Jonny.

fa0019 wrote:

munkian wrote:

fa0019 wrote:People shouldn't complain too much. Be thankful that even clubs like Ulster, Exeter & the Dragons with their 10,000 fans average per game and limited market appeal in the UK have bigger financial power then the Stormers & Bulls etc who bring in on ave. about 35,000-40,000 fans per game and are the 2 biggest sporting clubs in a country of 50MM people with huge merchandise appeal domestically.

SA clubs don't even bother counter-offering these days when a player gets a contract offer from Europe.

Yeah, Dragons really don't get 10,000 average per game....not sure why we were mentioned or where you got that figure from ?

Just picked some medium of the road clubs in the UK thats all. How many do you get 5000.... still probably have more financial power then the biggest in SA.

Thing is, you've picked clubs in different leagues and in totally different positions in the table.

Ulster are hardly 'medium' of the road, got into the Heino knock out stages and are 4th in the Rabbo league.

Dragons are 10th in the Rabbo (   ) and probably have a smaller budget than Ulster and spend within our meagre means.

Exeter are 8th in a completely different league with a completely different salary cap.

Whats with people making up shiz recently with blanket statements ?

Nothing to do with their league position Munkian... rather the size of their club.

The western force are hardly giants in SR, they are often 4th to 5th in the AUS conference vying with Rebels for the bottom place in the log yet are lucky to bring in 10,000 to a game... yet they are 4th in the overall ladder at the moment.

Contrary to this, the stormers, without question the best supported club in the world, often averaging 40,000 a game... and they are bottom of the SR ladder currently.

The finances of the two will surely be completely different. Nothing to do with their league status.

That was the point of the post.... one club, self owned, self owned stadium etc which it fills out with 10,000 more a week then near all others bar say the reds... yet when they face the financial strength test.... they can't even compete with medium European clubs with limited gate receipts and appeal.

How many exeter, newport to Ulster shirts are sold outside of their definitive region?

WP/Stormers are one of the top brands in SA, probably behind the bulls to be fair... but otherwise they have no peers. We don't even compete with clubs such as those listed.

Hmmm, I think budget and league position are related but thats a whole different thread.

My point was that the Dragons are hardly a good example to use. We recruit and build infrastructure within our smallish budget and share our ground with Newport RFC and Newport County football club.

I'd be surprised if our budget was higher than any SR team. I think our average attendance is around 6-7 thousand.

Will the roof be open or closed?

Closed

Really!   

Thats a shame.   

Its very quite on here seeing as its the main event in the club rugby calendar this weekend.

As a rugby fan I can't wait to see the two best teams in Europe do battle in the MS.  

Plenty of tickets still available as well if any one wants to go...

At least queuing for a pint won't take as long this weekend

I don't think Toulon will have big travelling report from what I've read. Estimated crowd will be 65,000. Roof is scheduled to be closed because, unlike the last week, it is forecast to be raining with the possibility of lightning

Possibility of Lightning + Chris Ashton possibly standing by a big metal post!

What's the problem?   

PenfroPete wrote:I don't think Toulon will have big travelling report from what I've read. Estimated crowd will be 65,000. Roof is scheduled to be closed because, unlike the last week, it is forecast to be raining with the possibility of lightning

some of the Toulon fans had to make a choice between travelling to Lille for the T14 SF, to Cardiff for the HC final and/or the T14 final in Paris. loads of miles to travel and not sure a lot can afford to go to all those games.

For those of you coming down

http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2653822

http://uk.weather.com/weather/weekend/Cardiff+CRF+United+Kingdom+UKXX0030:1:UK

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/forecast/cardiff-cardiff#?tab=fiveDay

You pays your money and takes your choice. Mind you, looked at the forecast on the weekend and today was supposed to be awful - just been out for a stroll and it's lovely    Let's hope they've got this wrong too as I've got friends coming in from Ireland, Scotland, England, Holland & France for this weekend

Sarries by 20.

JW to get a huge standing ovation whilst hobbling off around the 55min mark.

Toulon team announced...bench very forward orientated .

D. Armitage ; Mitchell, Bastareaud, Giteau, Habana ; Wilkinson, Tillous-Borde ; Fernandez Lobbe, S. Armitage, J. Smith ; Rossouw, Botha ; Hayman, Burden, Chiocci.

Subs : Orioli, Menini, Castrogiovanni, Williams, Suta, Bruni, Mermoz, Claassens.

http://www.saracens.com/saracens-name-heineken-cup-final-team/

Saracens side to face Toulon;
15. Alex Goode; 14. Chris Ashton, 13. Marcelo Bosch, 12. Brad Barritt, 11. David Strettle; 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Richard Wigglesworth; 1. Mako Vunipola, 2. Schalk Brits 3. Matt Stevens, 4. Steve Borthwick ©, 5. Alistair Hargreaves, 6. Kelly Brown, 7. Jacques Burger, 8. Billy Vunipola.
Replacements: 16. Jamie George, 17. Richard Barrington, 18. James Johnston, 19. Mouritz Botha, 20. Jackson Wray, 21. Neil de Kock, 22. Charlie Hodgson, 23. Chris Wyles.

Discipline will be key. Discipline was very poor last saturday - Saracens must dramatically improve.

Saracens cannot afford to allow themselves to be pinged off the park by Monsieur Rolland.

Just need to do the obvious things - be clinical, be disciplined, not be forced to chase the game, do the basics well, make their tackles.

Would love to know the average age of both sides.

Toulon look very powerful on paper but can't see past Sarries - they look hungrier, fresher and younger - can see them winning comfortably unless Toulon can smother them up front.

I think Toulon have better backs from 9-14, but Sarries have a better overall pack, ceratinly more mobile. Probably decided at the breakdown. Very close match. Really looking forward to it.

Toulon only has 3 players in their 20s starting (bastareaud 25, steffan 28 and tillous bordes 28 as well) so the average must be around 31-32 I'd say

still can't call this one................

Well if Saracens can play like they did in the SF then they would be a good shout. Mind you, for such a big match against Toulon, I would actually start Hodgson ahead of Farrell. Just think that Hodgson and Wigglesworth play a very similar game.

if you did that, the Rugby media would go into convulsions after all the Wilko-Farrell hype. I'm not a Sarries fan, but it does seem that Wiggly is not a great partner to Farrell.

They certainly would go into meltdown doctor. Wigglesworth is far more suited to Hodgson than Farrell and I think that Sarries will struggle in this area today.

I can't call it. I'm going Saracens by 2, because of their aggressive defence.

The problem is both teams are very good.  I'm not really a supporter of either team so it will come down to personalities or other unquantifiable factors.

The ugliest nose in world Rugby:  Jacques Burger, runner up:  Borthwick, of course
The most French name on a French team by an Anglo:  Matt Giteau
The fat player who runs most like a pregnant hippo:  Matt Stevens
The longest name in Rugby, give the bloke a nickname, ffs: Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe, runner up:  Sebastien Tillous-Borde
Should be racing F1, not playing Rugby:  Marcelo Bosch
Easiest to confuse with a fat fly half with bad hair:  Alex Goode (c'mon, this was an easy one, eh?)
Gender name confusion:  Maxime Mermoz, runner up:  Virgile Bruni (Carla in men's clothes?)
Serious need of a name change:  Neil de Kock, runner up:  Richard Wigglesworth
Should be the name of a butler in Downton Abbey:  Alistair Hargreaves  (come Hargreaves, bring me my tea)
The 'I just don't know what to do with this name':  Xavier Chiocci, runner up:  none
The BEST name in Rugby:  Mathieu Bastareaud

On the other hand, seriously, my favourite players out there today are:
Sarries:
Schalk Brits, of course
Steve Borthwick
Jacques Burger
Kelly Brown
Chris Wyles

Toulon:
Bakkies Botha
Juan Smith (this man's recovery from catastrophic injury damage is inspiring)
Martin Castrogiovanni
Matt Giteau
Bryan Habana
and,
Jonny Wilkinson

Well good luck to both teams. At home watching this, not as much build up as I would have expected but hopefully it will be a good match.