HC final - Saracens vs Toulon - Cardiff - Wilko vs Farrell.....

First topic message reminder :

Should be a cracker (England vs France) with two of the best teams in the NH playing each other in a celebration of rugby, can't wait to get there and soak up the atmosphere before, during and after the game, roll on 24th May.

doctor_grey wrote:I actually thought Rolland had a good match,  Nice for him to go out that way,  

I agree, he wasn't the centre of attention and that IMO is as good a job a ref can do.

geoff998rugby wrote: Putting aside our own views for one moment I hope everyone can say a fond fairwell to 3 outstanding servants of the game

Rolland
Borthwick
and of course Wilkinson.  

You can all be proud of your record

Borthwick and Wilkinson. Two players who made absolutely everything of their talents.

TJ wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote: Putting aside our own views for one moment I hope everyone can say a fond fairwell to 3 outstanding servants of the game

Rolland
Borthwick
and of course Wilkinson.  

You can all be proud of your record

Borthwick and Wilkinson.  Two players who made absolutely everything of their talents.

Borthwick's only real talent was as a line-out technician. He offered little else in my opinion. My view of him maybe somewhat tainted by the fact that his tenure as captaincy in a lacklustre England team was notable only for the cringeworthy post match interviews.

Scrumpy really? I thought Rolland made himself his presence pretty clear with repeatedly going to the TMO. Rolland is the king of the stodgefest. One of his better games but still a ref I have never liked.

You want a decent game of rugby for the neutral then get Nigel Owens...... I would say the best ref in the AP for a decent game is JP Doyle at the moment.

Luckily JP Doyle has the AP final.

geoff agree. Completely unacceptable from the club. Sounds like many fans got the short straw.

It was a pretty stodgy game, and the use of the TMO was symptomatic of the way rugby is going these days. The stakes are high so I don't blame the refs for using the technology available to them, but it's getting silly now. It was even worse in the Stade vs Wasps game.

I thought Toulon handled Sarries superbly well, and their tactics and strategy spot-on. The Sarries defence is about as good as it gets, and yet Toulon figured out a couple of set moves to get around it and had a clear strategy to avoid players getting isolated. Despite the stop/start nature of the game, it was a great battle of strength and wits. A credit to both sides really.

I echo those calls to bid Wilkinson and Borthwick a fond farewell. Wilkinson is right up there with the top fly halves of his generation, and Borthwick, whilst never an international player in my view, is a top top club captain and a man who milked every ounce of his potential. Very much the English equivalent of our Al Kellock north of the border. Both at Bath and at Saracens he became the leader and soul of the club, and a great lineout caller. Kellock fulfils the same role at Glasgow - the go to guy when things get tough.

'Has there been foul play?' shouldn't be an acceptable use of the TMO. Point to the exact incident or don't use it. Same with tries, don't just say 'Try yes or no?', ask them to check the grounding, for forward passes etc. Right now you have TMOs going back over long stretches of play looking for some incident. It's tedious.

geoff998rugby wrote: Putting aside our own views for one moment I hope everyone can say a fond fairwell to 3 outstanding servants of the game

Rolland
Borthwick
and of course Wilkinson.  

You can all be proud of your record

+1

The fans need to pull up their socks and stop giving abuse / booing refs for the decisions they make if they want them to stop (over)using the TMO.

Sin é wrote:The fans need to pull up their socks and stop giving abuse / booing refs for the decisions they make if they want them to stop (over)using the TMO.

Well, that is true.

Scottrf wrote:

Sin é wrote:The fans need to pull up their socks and stop giving abuse / booing refs for the decisions they make if they want them to stop (over)using the TMO.

Well, that is true.

Agreed on both counts. I don't blame the refs for using it. Fans like GreyGhost have been prattling on for years about refs missing borderline passes at full speed late on in matches, so you can't have it both ways. Either you accept that human error is a fact of life (and, incidentally, the TV review system doesn't guarantee the right decision either), and stand by the ref and his decisions, or you accept that rugby matches will soon be 4 hour epic affairs with every ruck and maul eventually scrutinised to the nth degree in slow motion relay.

I personally think it's already gone too far. As noted above, it should only be used where a ref has seen something specific and is in some doubt, and the opposition players should certainly not be permitted to request it. It's a no brainer otherwise for the opposition captain to ask the ref about some ruck that occurred 3 minutes previously up the other end of the field, or to double check a pass. It's become the last line of defence, and it's hardly worth celebrating these days when your side scores, as it isn't usually confirmed until about 5 minutes later.

Just one more point - Saracens stupidly played Farrell for 65 minutes when he picked up an injury before the match began by tripping over a cable.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/may/25/owen-farrell-mako-vunipola-stuart-lancaster-england

I didn't see him trip up but I saw his reaction - bowed head, not good body language before a final.Farrell didn't look right whilst warming up and contributed to his poor performance.

It annoys me how foolish the Saracens coaches could be.

Bringing on Hodgson for Farrell was a no brainer decision. Should have rung the change early on in the 2nd half if not earlier.

Beshocked, i think Saracens will get stronger through this.

We discussed before that i dont rate your second row...or Stevens at TH.

Replacing Borthwick (who is a top lineout man but offers zero elsewhere ) with young Kruis is a massive improvment straight away. No doubt you'll sign a few then you have the likes of Tompkins, Itoje, and that young wing / FB who looks a cracking prospect all coming through.

Toulon were just very strong on the day, and Saracens just needed to be a bit smarter ball in hand. Difficult against that side.
Vunipola was excellent but gave turniovers on numerous occasions...but that is more to do with the Saracens support not being there with him allowing Armitage to just have a field day.

The odd thing is thats an area Saracens are normally brutal at.

Well I don't. They didn't learn anything from last year. Toulon's tactics were predictable yet again Saracens had no answer - just like last year and the two games vs Toulouse.

Saracens need to be smarter in general. Vunipola gave away turnovers because there was no support and no Plan B - just give the ball to Billy......

Tactically and performance wise Saracens were not at the races. Of course credit has to be given to Toulon - they executed their gameplan and tactics well but it's not something revolutionary.

I do not believe Toulon are unbeatable. I believe Saracens could have beaten Toulon if they had done certain things like be more positive during Toulon's YC period, nail the kicks on offer, bring on two fresh halfbacks when 4 points down not 17. Mix things up more.

I don't think Toulon played as well as they could either but they were more intelligent and clinical on the day. Decision making was superior too.

beshocked wrote:Well I don't. They didn't learn anything from last year. Toulon's tactics were predictable yet again Saracens had no answer - just like last year and the two games vs Toulouse.

Saracens need to be smarter in general. Vunipola gave away turnovers because there was no support and no Plan B - just give the ball to Billy......

Tactically and performance wise Saracens were not at the races. Of course credit has to be given to Toulon - they executed their gameplan and tactics well but it's not something revolutionary.

I do not believe Toulon are unbeatable. I believe Saracens could have beaten Toulon if they had done certain things like be more positive during Toulon's YC period, nail the kicks on offer, bring on two fresh halfbacks when 4 points down not 17. Mix things up more.

I don't think Toulon played as well as they could either but they were more intelligent and clinical on the day. Decision making was superior too.

This is the main point I think. We've been used to seeing Saracens run around teams all season, but they couldn't make the extra man count on Saturday. In credit to Toulon, their defence was unbelievable. Saracens defence for the most part was strong too, but Wilkinson and Giteau found some room with the boot that other teams simply couldn't find all season. That's just a credit to the attacking flair of the players in Toulon's line up.

I agree that Toulon aren't unbeatable. Saracens in my mind started better and were dominant until around the 30 minute mark. Toulon were able to alter their attacking game plan in response to Sarries' aggressive defence, whereas Saracens just continued with the bish-bash-bosh approach, which ultimately, Toulon absorbed, chewed, and spat back out again.

Well Saracens are reknowned for being a machine like unit rather than an all singing all dancing affair.

A few tweeks...maybe one or two players with a bit more flair, that the likes of young Tompkins has in abundance.

I also think they need to look at the 9 10 12 axis. Is it creative enough...does it have people to open up a game when it needs it. Maybe switch Wigglesworth for someone like Danny care.

Barritt is a warrior in there...but he'll never be a hugely creative playmaker

I think switiching one of those probably Wigglesworth would help.

bluestonevedder they didn't try and run it though during that period. Reminded me of how Saracens laboured when they had the extra man vs Ulster. Any team must make the extra man count. The week before Quins mostly squandered 2 extra men vs Saracens too

Saracens only had a 3-0 lead plus there was no variety in their play. I don't think any side is impossible to break down with the right tactics. As you say Toulon used intelligent tactics to break down the Saracens defence.

I feel that bringing on De Kock and Hodgson earlier might have given Saracens an injection of new ideas - no point doing it when the game was lost (17 points down, 16 minutes to go). Might have not worked but it was the only way by that time that Saracens could have turned things around.

Coaches and players did not adapt well to the changing situations. To win you have to be bold and take chances when they come - Toulon struck first and ultimately that first try was the decisive blow and turning point.

Geordiefalcon well there weren't a well oiled machine on Saturday. More like one in need of repairs/broken.

De Kock and Hodgson were players who could have given some much needed impetus off the bench but weren't used till it was too late - almost as soon as Hodgson came on his passes were much faster,slicker than the crocked Farrell and put in one particularly deft kick.

Saracens haven't become a bad team overnight but one win huge over Clermont doesn't change that they have in general struggled with the big French sides. They had a very good day vs Clermont but the benchmark is Toulon.

Toulon are the best side in Europe at the moment but are not invincible. I genuinely believe Saracens have good enough players to beat Toulon but must play more intelligently vs Toulon.

beshocked wrote:bluestonevedder they didn't try and run it though during that period. Reminded me of how Saracens laboured when they had the extra man vs Ulster. Any team must make the extra man count. The week before Quins mostly squandered 2 extra men vs Saracens too

Saracens only had a 3-0 lead plus there was no variety in their play. I don't think any side is impossible to break down with the right tactics. As you say Toulon used intelligent tactics to break down the Saracens defence.

I feel that bringing on De Kock and Hodgson earlier might have given Saracens an injection of new ideas - no point doing it when the game was lost (17 points down, 16 minutes to go). Might have not worked but it was the only way by that time that Saracens could have turned things around.

Coaches and players did not adapt well to the changing situations. To win you have to be bold and take chances when they come - Toulon struck first and ultimately that first try was the decisive blow and turning point.

You're right beshocked. Saracens just didn't seem interested in running the ball. It almost seems that they were waiting to capitalise on their rush defence forcing errors from Toulon.
Toulon's second try for instance came from a pass from Giteau (I think) who was pressurised from a flying Strettle. 9 times out of 10 that ball might not have made it to hand and Sarries might have had a chance of hacking on for territory or a try. Things just didn't go their way.

At the end of the day, Saracens didn't seem to play like they have done all season. It was a little bit deflating to be honest, but as people above have said, hopefully it is something they will learn from.

Did I imagine it, or were Sarries using BVunipola as their primary weapon from the start, with the occasional thrust from Brits and latterly from Kelly B? It felt like the wrong tactic from the start, and one that RCT had clearly prepared thoroughly for. It struck me that a plan B and C were required to go beyond the rather one-dimensional game that Toulon seemed prepared to soak up and punish right from the get-go. I agree with beshocked that Hodgson's arrival on the pitch brought a more varied gameplan and a quicker one too

Poor game for the neutral. I suspected Saracens had been a bit fortunate to get to the final. Toulon were just too good for them. But these beatings are a part of building a champion team. Hopefully they can use what went wrong this time to improve in future.

What annoys me about Toulon is their style of play. It's a perfectly legitimate way to play the game of course. But after buying in so many talented players. Why not try and do it with a more attractive style?

Armitage is so brilliant because at the breakdown he's pretty much impossible to move. But he also is not totally on his feet either. England should make every effort to get him into the squad and try him out. But if international refs decide to start pinging him for going off his feet, then he won't be anywhere near as useful to them.

Lol !

beshocked wrote:Just one more point - Saracens stupidly played Farrell for 65 minutes when he picked up an injury before the match began by tripping over a cable.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/may/25/owen-farrell-mako-vunipola-stuart-lancaster-england

I didn't see him trip up but I saw his reaction - bowed head, not good body language before a final.Farrell didn't look right whilst warming up and contributed to his poor performance.

It annoys me how foolish the Saracens coaches could be.

Bringing on Hodgson for Farrell was a no brainer decision. Should have rung the change early on in the 2nd half if not earlier.

What are the tournament rules? Could Saracens have started Hodgson and switched Farrell to the bench, or would they have been obliged to withdraw Farrell completely in order to change the starting line-up?

If the latter, then I can understand why Saracens might have persevered with Farrell. He even made that break in the second half, which Ashton nearly followed up, so yo can imagine how hope might have clouded the coaches' judgement.

Nevertheless, Saracens looked largely toothless in attack, no matter how near they were on the scoreboard, so Hodgson should have come on much earlier.

Personally, I think Saracens have peaked under the current management and coaching set up. It's clear they havent learnt their lessons from last year and if the status quo remains, it seems likely that they'll take no lessons away from this year too. As i've said before, its concieveable that Saracens having reached two finals could leave with nothing - its entirely possible that Saints will turn them over in the AP final. That would be disasterous for a team of such potential.

bluestonevedder not sure I would say things didn't go Saracens way - they just didn't make the most of the penalty count against Toulon in the first half and of course that YC.

aslongasbut100ofus I agree but a plan B and C aren't really part of the Saracens system. It's also working out what they would be.

Feckless Rogue I do agree but the only way you could get a team like Toulon to change their style is by effectively neutralising their current one. If it isn't broken...

Rugby fan not sure about the rules but the coaches should have been able to see Farrell's discomfort.

Jimpy perhaps you are right. We'll see.

Sarries just lost the kicking battle. Wilkinson, Giteau etc were all able to kick to touch or to kick and allow Toulon to compete. Sarries kicked long and aimlessly. Gifted Toulon ball to put into the right areas of the pitch.

Nah i think Sarries wil be fine next season.

Just need to bring a bit more intelligence into their play...and a bit more flair.

The management probably messed up a bit in some tactics and selections for this game, but its not an accusation you can throw at them in many games this season. Saracens will be back again next season, and will have new players.

I definately think a playmaking 9 in the French style might help them.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Sarries just lost the kicking battle. Wilkinson,  Giteau etc were all able to kick to touch or to kick and allow Toulon to compete. Sarries kicked long and aimlessly. Gifted Toulon ball to put into the right areas of the pitch.

That's it in a nutshell, we saw the Sarries of seasons past on Sat, but their kicking was a lot worse and they couldn't bully the opposition = easy win for Toulon.

Really not sure what the coaches were thinking with that gameplan. Try to out kick the best 'limited gameplan' team in the comp   

Especially with a flakey kicker like Farrell.

Noticed Ford wasn't great against the Saints either.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Nah i think Sarries wil be fine next season.

Just need to bring a bit more intelligence into their play...and a bit more flair.

The management probably messed up a bit in some tactics and selections for this game, but its not an accusation you can throw at them in many games this season.  Saracens will be back again next season, and will have new players.

I definately think a playmaking 9 in the French style might help them.

Maybe so, but if there's one game you really don't want to muck up the tactics and selections for, it would be a HC final right? Shows a fundamental flaw in coaching that you would hope had been rectified - but hasn't.

Well thats true Jimpy, lets see how they go in the Prem Final.

Will they have learnt?

After losing to Toulon last year they went on to lose to Saints - could happen again - to be honest I think it will.

Jimpy can't argue with that.

Munkian agreed Farrell has been flakey with his kicking lately.

Sam agreed but its something Saracens should definitely not do.

Geordiefalcon it's not just on the pitch where Saracens must improve.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well thats true Jimpy, lets see how they go in the Prem Final.

Will they have learnt?

I hope not...   

beshocked wrote:Just one more point - Saracens stupidly played Farrell for 65 minutes when he picked up an injury before the match began by tripping over a cable.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/may/25/owen-farrell-mako-vunipola-stuart-lancaster-england

I didn't see him trip up but I saw his reaction - bowed head, not good body language before a final.Farrell didn't look right whilst warming up and contributed to his poor performance.

It annoys me how foolish the Saracens coaches could be.

Bringing on Hodgson for Farrell was a no brainer decision. Should have rung the change early on in the 2nd half if not earlier.

i saw him do it. they were running a set play at speed and it looked like he really hurt it. was in obvious pain and medic came on. i wonder if that explains why farrell did almost no kicking from hand during the game and only made 1 break with the ball?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Did I imagine it, or were Sarries using BVunipola as their primary weapon from the start, with the occasional thrust from Brits and latterly from Kelly B?  It felt like the wrong tactic from the start, and one that RCT had clearly prepared thoroughly for.  It struck me that a plan B and C were required to go beyond the rather one-dimensional game that Toulon seemed prepared to soak up and punish right from the get-go.  I agree with beshocked that Hodgson's arrival on the pitch brought a more varied gameplan and a quicker one too

yes i agree with this. and toulon clearly targeted both billy v (who armitage turned over 4 times) and brits (who got mullered by his opposite number half way through the first half).

quinsforever wrote:

beshocked wrote:Just one more point - Saracens stupidly played Farrell for 65 minutes when he picked up an injury before the match began by tripping over a cable.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/may/25/owen-farrell-mako-vunipola-stuart-lancaster-england

I didn't see him trip up but I saw his reaction - bowed head, not good body language before a final.Farrell didn't look right whilst warming up and contributed to his poor performance.

It annoys me how foolish the Saracens coaches could be.

Bringing on Hodgson for Farrell was a no brainer decision. Should have rung the change early on in the 2nd half if not earlier.

i saw him do it. they were running a set play at speed and it looked like he really hurt it. was in obvious pain and medic came on. i wonder if that explains why farrell did almost no kicking from hand during the game and only made 1 break with the ball?

Makes you wonder why they left him on for 65 minutes.....   

quinsforever wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Did I imagine it, or were Sarries using BVunipola as their primary weapon from the start, with the occasional thrust from Brits and latterly from Kelly B?  It felt like the wrong tactic from the start, and one that RCT had clearly prepared thoroughly for.  It struck me that a plan B and C were required to go beyond the rather one-dimensional game that Toulon seemed prepared to soak up and punish right from the get-go.  I agree with beshocked that Hodgson's arrival on the pitch brought a more varied gameplan and a quicker one too

yes i agree with this. and toulon clearly targeted both billy v (who armitage turned over 4 times) and brits (who got mullered by his opposite number half way through the first half).

Makes sense to target two of Saracen's go to players with ball in hand. Frustates me that the coaches and players didn't adapt.

Really felt for Billy.

Jimpy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well thats true Jimpy, lets see how they go in the Prem Final.

Will they have learnt?

I hope not...   

Well actually i do. They have been the best team in the league ...been top for most of it, so they deserve it.

beshocked wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Did I imagine it, or were Sarries using BVunipola as their primary weapon from the start, with the occasional thrust from Brits and latterly from Kelly B?  It felt like the wrong tactic from the start, and one that RCT had clearly prepared thoroughly for.  It struck me that a plan B and C were required to go beyond the rather one-dimensional game that Toulon seemed prepared to soak up and punish right from the get-go.  I agree with beshocked that Hodgson's arrival on the pitch brought a more varied gameplan and a quicker one too

yes i agree with this. and toulon clearly targeted both billy v (who armitage turned over 4 times) and brits (who got mullered by his opposite number half way through the first half).

Makes sense to target two of Saracen's go to players with ball in hand. Frustates me that the coaches and players didn't adapt.

Really felt for Billy.

That was the critical thing. Saracens support of their carriers is usually top class. In this game they always were a yard behind. And when you have players like Botha, Armitage, Juan Smith etc in there...your going to lose alot of ball ....as Saracens in fact did.

They need to correct that aspect of their game more than anything for the weekend.

Agreed Geordiefalcon. It seemed like everything Saracens normally do well they didn't. Of course Toulon must be given a lot of credit for never allowing Saracens anything breathing space or opportunity to settle into any rhythm.

Toulon were more streetwise,intelligent and effective but I expected more from Saracens in a HC final from both the coaches and players.

Must of course be disappointing for neutrals too - not the most absorbing contest was it?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:Poor final sarries really disappointing! Munster the only team to put it up to Toulon

Notch beat me to the punch.

Bit late here but i should point out the blues beat Toulon in the group stage

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24573827

So it seems the blues were the only team to put it up to Toulon :-)

True dat , was a huge win anyway, considering their poor form - pretty much against all odds

was a crap game though. rain sideways and mudbath pitch with long grass.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well thats true Jimpy, lets see how they go in the Prem Final.

Will they have learnt?

I hope not...   

Well actually i do. They have been the best team in the league ...been top for most of it, so they deserve it.

Its easy to say that when you support a team that will never, ever contest a final...

quinsforever wrote:was a crap game though. rain sideways and mudbath pitch with long grass.

  

Jimpy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well thats true Jimpy, lets see how they go in the Prem Final.

Will they have learnt?

I hope not...   

Well actually i do. They have been the best team in the league ...been top for most of it, so they deserve it.

Its easy to say that when you support a team that will never, ever contest a final...

Erm...we have many a time...winners at Twickenham several times and Premiership winners once aswell.

We will be back challenging for silverware soon aswell again.

beshocked wrote:Agreed Geordiefalcon. It seemed like everything Saracens normally do well they didn't. Of course Toulon must be given a lot of credit for never allowing Saracens anything breathing space or opportunity to settle into any rhythm.

Toulon were more streetwise,intelligent and effective but I expected more from Saracens in a HC final from both the coaches and players.

Must of course be disappointing for neutrals too - not the most absorbing contest was it?

And they can expect exactly the same from a team containing Tom Wood, Courtney Lawes, Manoa, Hartley (If Fit) or Hayward who has been excellent etc etc

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well thats true Jimpy, lets see how they go in the Prem Final.

Will they have learnt?

I hope not...   

Well actually i do. They have been the best team in the league ...been top for most of it, so they deserve it.

Its easy to say that when you support a team that will never, ever contest a final...

Erm...we have many a time...winners at Twickenham several times and Premiership winners once aswell.

We will be back challenging for silverware soon aswell again.

Note the future tense...

How? Is Dean Richards going to rob a jewelers in the Metro Centre?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:Agreed Geordiefalcon. It seemed like everything Saracens normally do well they didn't. Of course Toulon must be given a lot of credit for never allowing Saracens anything breathing space or opportunity to settle into any rhythm.

Toulon were more streetwise,intelligent and effective but I expected more from Saracens in a HC final from both the coaches and players.

Must of course be disappointing for neutrals too - not the most absorbing contest was it?

And they can expect exactly the same from a team containing Tom Wood, Courtney Lawes, Manoa, Hartley (If Fit) or Hayward who has been excellent etc etc

Well Saracens didn't have a problem vs Saints when they last played till the last 10 minutes.

With all due respect I don't think the backrow of Saints is proficient as the Toulon one but I could be proved wrong on the weekend.

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:Agreed Geordiefalcon. It seemed like everything Saracens normally do well they didn't. Of course Toulon must be given a lot of credit for never allowing Saracens anything breathing space or opportunity to settle into any rhythm.

Toulon were more streetwise,intelligent and effective but I expected more from Saracens in a HC final from both the coaches and players.

Must of course be disappointing for neutrals too - not the most absorbing contest was it?

And they can expect exactly the same from a team containing Tom Wood, Courtney Lawes, Manoa, Hartley (If Fit) or Hayward who has been excellent etc etc

Well Saracens didn't have a problem vs Saints when they last played till the last 10 minutes.

With all due respect I don't think the backrow of Saints is proficient as the Toulon one but I could be proved wrong on the weekend.

Past history doesn't really count for much. Until the play-offs, Saints had lost to Tigers nine straight times, home and away.

Also, it's 3-1 to Saints this season, the home league game being a 41-20 rout. Granted 2 of the games weren't with full sides.