MEP Elections

First topic message reminder :

It's the European Parliament Elections on May 22nd, with UKIP hoping to gain the most seats after second place last time out, with Labour and Liberal Democrats looking to hold onto their seats.

But, does anyone care? Only one in three people voted in the last elections, but there seems to be more of a media interest, especially with the TV debates between Nigel Farage and Nick Clegg, which if you haven't seen are worth a watch. Could it be argued that by Labour and Conservatives not showing to the debates, that UKIP and LibDem will gain?

It seems that this year, there will be a higher turnout but will it be a significant amount? UKIP are certainly a more real opposition and will surely gain seats, with the opinion polls showing UKIP are likely to win.

skyeman wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

skyeman wrote:Already explained why, the voting for UKIP in the Euros is the protest. In a GE it would be POINTLESS up here and i still like the SNP's other policies. Things can change afterwards.

Seems pointless, you are voting for 1 party because they want to leave the EU and yet you are voting for another party who want to remain in the EU. If the SNP win independence for Scotland they will seek to join the EU.

You voting for the SNP will result in Sotland being a part of the EU because SNP winning elections and winning the referendum will mean they become independent from the UK and thus UKIP will have no say what happens in Scotland and thus the SNP's policy of joining the EU will be unopposed by any political party.

I just find it rather amusing you are so against the EU but you are voting for a party who are massively in favour of the EU and then you are demanding a referendum    How can you demand a referendum on the EU when youa re voting for a party who are fighting to join the EU?

If there is a YES vote it won't matter who you vote for up here SNP, LibLabCon they would all want the same.

The same way that the LibLabCon supporters who want out of the EU who will protest to their leaders by voting UKIP at the Euros but then return for the GE. Even though their leaders are pro EU. Democracy in action.

But you are going to be voting for a YES vote which will guarantee Scotland will be part of the EU. A NO vote will guarantee Scotland will remain part of the UK and thus will in all probability get a referendum on leaving the EU.

I don't think you have really thought about your actions regarding who you vote for. You are against the EU and are voting for UKIP but then you are voting YES in the Scottish referendum which will guarantee Scotland will be a EU member.

You really need to rethink if you want to vote YES at the Scottish referendum because I don't think you realise that a YES vote = Scotland joining the EU. A NO vote most likely = The UK having a referendum on the EU.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

skyeman wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

skyeman wrote:Already explained why, the voting for UKIP in the Euros is the protest. In a GE it would be POINTLESS up here and i still like the SNP's other policies. Things can change afterwards.

Seems pointless, you are voting for 1 party because they want to leave the EU and yet you are voting for another party who want to remain in the EU. If the SNP win independence for Scotland they will seek to join the EU.

You voting for the SNP will result in Sotland being a part of the EU because SNP winning elections and winning the referendum will mean they become independent from the UK and thus UKIP will have no say what happens in Scotland and thus the SNP's policy of joining the EU will be unopposed by any political party.

I just find it rather amusing you are so against the EU but you are voting for a party who are massively in favour of the EU and then you are demanding a referendum    How can you demand a referendum on the EU when youa re voting for a party who are fighting to join the EU?

If there is a YES vote it won't matter who you vote for up here SNP, LibLabCon they would all want the same.

The same way that the LibLabCon supporters who want out of the EU who will protest to their leaders by voting UKIP at the Euros but then return for the GE. Even though their leaders are pro EU. Democracy in action.

But you are going to be voting for a YES vote which will guarantee Scotland will be part of the EU. A NO vote will guarantee Scotland will remain part of the UK and thus will in all probability get a referendum on leaving the EU.

I don't think you have really thought about your actions regarding who you vote for. You are against the EU and are voting for UKIP but then you are voting YES in the Scottish referendum which will guarantee Scotland will be a EU member.

You really need to rethink if you want to vote YES at the Scottish referendum because I don't think you realise that a YES vote = Scotland joining the EU. A NO vote most likely = The UK having a referendum on the EU.

Of course i know that, i have previously stated what you have just said.

The YES/NO vote has now nothing to do with the SNP. They just gave us the choice, unlike LibLabCon on the EU.

And it will also guarantee nothing of the sort.

A YES could also have Scotland out of the EU. The EU are against Scotland gaining Independance and have said she might not get in. So it may be a win/win.

skyeman wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

skyeman wrote:

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

skyeman wrote:Already explained why, the voting for UKIP in the Euros is the protest. In a GE it would be POINTLESS up here and i still like the SNP's other policies. Things can change afterwards.

Seems pointless, you are voting for 1 party because they want to leave the EU and yet you are voting for another party who want to remain in the EU. If the SNP win independence for Scotland they will seek to join the EU.

You voting for the SNP will result in Sotland being a part of the EU because SNP winning elections and winning the referendum will mean they become independent from the UK and thus UKIP will have no say what happens in Scotland and thus the SNP's policy of joining the EU will be unopposed by any political party.

I just find it rather amusing you are so against the EU but you are voting for a party who are massively in favour of the EU and then you are demanding a referendum    How can you demand a referendum on the EU when youa re voting for a party who are fighting to join the EU?

If there is a YES vote it won't matter who you vote for up here SNP, LibLabCon they would all want the same.

The same way that the LibLabCon supporters who want out of the EU who will protest to their leaders by voting UKIP at the Euros but then return for the GE. Even though their leaders are pro EU. Democracy in action.

But you are going to be voting for a YES vote which will guarantee Scotland will be part of the EU. A NO vote will guarantee Scotland will remain part of the UK and thus will in all probability get a referendum on leaving the EU.

I don't think you have really thought about your actions regarding who you vote for. You are against the EU and are voting for UKIP but then you are voting YES in the Scottish referendum which will guarantee Scotland will be a EU member.

You really need to rethink if you want to vote YES at the Scottish referendum because I don't think you realise that a YES vote = Scotland joining the EU. A NO vote most likely = The UK having a referendum on the EU.

Of course i know that, i have previously stated what you have just said.

The YES/NO vote has now nothing to do with the SNP. They just gave us the choice, unlike LibLabCon on the EU.

And it will also guarantee nothing of the sort.

A YES could also have Scotland out of the EU. The EU are against Scotland gaining Independance and have said she might not get in. So it may be a win/win.

Voting SNP was the reason you are having a referendum because they won the election. The more votes they get also legitimises them more and thus people listen to what they have to say more and thus they get more support for independence. More support for independence = independence= Scotland joining the EU.

It doesn't matter if certain EU countries are for or against Scotland joining the EU. The fact of the matter is that you are against the EU but you will vote YES in a referendum which will result in your independent country fighting for its right to join the EU ( an establishment you hate so much that you are willing to use your democratic right to vote for UKIP whose only political ambition is to leave the EU)

If you know all of the above how can you sit there and argue that the UK shoud be given a referendum on the EU when you are voting for a political party whose ambition is to become a part of the EU?

It is a bit like me voting for party A whose sole ambition and sole political motivation is to offer free university education to everyone and then I vote for party B who have in their manifesto that they want to change the education system which will result in university students having to pay £20k a year.

Voting UKIP and then voting for the SNP is the definition of irony. You want out of the EU so you will vote for UKIP whose sole political aim is to get the UK indeendence from the EU and then you vote for the SNP whose sole political aim is to get Scotland independent from the UK and to make an independent Scotland a member of the EU.

I already said how ironic it was a page or two back. In the long game, once the referendum is given, i am quietly confident that the UK {whether with Scotland or not} will vote OUT, other countries will follow and the EU will collapse.

I only see a win/win

Why do you think they will not give a referendum? Panic

skyeman wrote:I already said how ironic it was a page or two back. In the long game, once the referendum is given, i am quietly confident that the UK {whether with Scotland or not} will vote OUT, other countries will follow and the EU will collapse.

I only see a win/win

Why do you think they will not give a referendum? Panic

If that helps you sleep at night   I'm going to laugh myself to sleep that I have been having a debate with someone for days about how bad the EU is and it turns out he votes for a party who are arguing their heart out to be accepted by the EU as a member state   And to make things worse he is going to vote YES in the Scottish referendum which will result in an independent Scotland becoming a member of the EU whilst the rest of the UK get a referendum on leaving the EU   

If you are a representation of UKIP voters then I truely am worried    'I hate the EU so I am going to vote UKIP but then I am also going to vote for the SNP who want an independent Scotland to join the EU' hahaha

Bless you I know your type you think the grass is greener on the other side hence why you are in favour of independence from the EU and Scottish independence (probably brainwashed that you will suddenly become richer if you are independent or some other crap). What you fail to realise is that if Scotland does vote for independence it will join the EU as a member state, which is something you don't want. And to make things worse instead of Scotland being a part of one of the most powerul EU nations (UK) with the strongest military and business and wealth etc you will just be a small 5 million population new country who will have no power whatsoever on EU matters.

All you are doing by voting for Scottish independence is voting for Scotland to be part of the EU but to have basically no power whatsoever within the EU.

But hey don't worry the EU will fall apart in a few years anyway           

skyeman wrote:I already said how ironic it was a page or two back. In the long game, once the referendum is given, i am quietly confident that the UK {whether with Scotland or not} will vote OUT, other countries will follow and the EU will collapse.

I only see a win/win

Why do you think they will not give a referendum? Panic

Don't worry, Skyeman, rational people like myself understand you perfectly.   

Are you honestly saying CS that if you disagree with ONE policy of a party you completely disregard voting for them?

Voting for an anti-European/pro UK party in the MEP election and a pro Europe/anti UK party in the GE.

I think some people don't quite understand the political process.

Derbymanc wrote:Are you honestly saying CS that if you disagree with ONE policy of a party you completely disregard voting for them?

I think if you are in total disagreement with a fundamental aspect of a party's ideology and major aspect of their election manifesto you should probably look elsewhere with your vote.

I'll give you that one Rodder's you've got a bit of a point there   

But as Skye say's there isn't really an alternative then his only option is to not vote, in which case he can't really argue the point at all.

Although the chance of Scotland actually joining the EU in a decent amount of time so as he says he's hedging his bets and therefore can vote for both parties.

Ha ha. CS, you know nothing of the sought. But i do know your type! First of all, you like to believe that you are always right, no matter what. You argue for fun, even in the wrong. I gave you answers, which were ignored and you went round and round in circles. I have seen plenty of your posts on 606, where others have made your stances look embarrassing and foolish. The ignorance and arrogance levels are akin to that of someone with a problem. If you do have a condition, sorry.

As stated before, you show by calling yourself Champagne Socialist what type you are, the do it our way or you are 100% wrong type or even worse, the Robin Hood - but you keep the money and say frig the poor. I'm alright Jack.

Since living in Scotland, i can see just how much the SNP have benefited Scotland, why the hell should i not vote for them because i don't particularly like one thing.

Why don't you want a EU referendum, when the majority do.?  If the EU is fairly decent, what are you worried about. Makes zero sense. You are in a small minority on this one, but like many Guardianista types, afraid of the truth.

Or, i can only think of the above.

rodders wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:Are you honestly saying CS that if you disagree with ONE policy of a party you completely disregard voting for them?

I think if you are in total disagreement with a fundamental aspect of a party's ideology and major aspect of their election manifesto you should probably look elsewhere with your vote.

I understand it perfectly rodders, just like the LibLabCon voters who will be voting UKIP as a protest because they either want out or a choice of in/out. Most will then return to their own party with that fundamental aspect diference.

SNP,LibLabCon, Greens up here are all proEU. Just not vote?

skyeman wrote:
SNP,LibLabCon, Greens up here are all proEU. Just not vote?

You should vote for the party who best represents you. However it make no sense whatsoever to vote for parties with conflicting ideologies in different elections as in whatever stage they are on - MP, MEP, Scottish parliament they will be pushing their political agenda and policies within that institution.  

If you are seriously anti-Europe and want to force a referendum then in whatever election through which you can enable a party with such a political goal to push for a referendum then you need to be voting that way.

It is totally nonsensical to vote for a pro European party if you are anti Europe and vice versa, the same way if you are pro Union then voting SNP is pretty naïve and stupid.

If you don't feel any party represents your view I would suggest contacting all your local parties and expressing your views and see which one is willing to raise your concerns if elected. Otherwise you could try standing for election yourself if you are that disenfranchised.

The 2 biggest problems in British politics is disenfranchised voters abstaining from voting and the second is the protest vote - probably the single most misguided and stupidest idea when it comes to casting your vote.

rodders wrote:

skyeman wrote:
SNP,LibLabCon, Greens up here are all proEU. Just not vote?

You should vote for the party who best represents you. However it make no sense whatsoever to vote for parties with conflicting ideologies in different elections as in whatever stage they are on - MP, MEP, Scottish parliament they will be pushing their political agenda and policies within that institution.  

If you are seriously anti-Europe and want to force a referendum then in whatever election through which you can enable a party with such a political goal to push for a referendum then you need to be voting that way.

It is totally nonsensical to vote for a pro European party if you are anti Europe and vice versa, the same way if you are pro Union then voting SNP is pretty naïve and stupid.

If you don't feel any party represents your view I would suggest contacting all your local parties and expressing your views and see which one is willing to raise your concerns if elected. Otherwise you could try standing for election yourself if you are that disenfranchised.

The 2 biggest problems in British politics is disenfranchised voters abstaining from voting and the second is the protest vote - probably the single most misguided and stupidest idea when it comes to casting your vote.

A protest vote for the disillusioned who use their vote on a party who has virtually no chance of winning, i agree, but in this case absolutely not. Ukip look likely to finish ahead on total votes and the big three will be panicing.

And if they still don't listen!

By the way, why don't you want the vast majority who do, to not have the choice of an in/out referendum? Are you anti-democracy.

Skye, I assume your FOR independance for Scotland, and if so what other party other than the SNP is arguing FOR Scottish Independance???

skyeman wrote:
By the way, why don't you want the vast majority who do, to not have the choice of an in/out referendum? Are you anti-democracy.

I think there is too much misinformation around to have a serious referendum at this time. This is a knee jerk reaction to the new EU banking regulations and at the other end of the spectrum driven by fear mongering about immigration.

With the upcoming Scottish referendum and the country still trying to recover from the 2008 economic crisis this is exactly the wrong time to be considering leaving the EU -even more so with what is going on with Syria and Russia.

The focus should be on working with the other EU member states to resolve the Ukraine crisis, revive the trade deal with the US and raise issues about immigration and fiscal union with other member states with similar concerns.

This is not the time for protectionist foreign policy and taking the ball and going home and quite frankly I think too much of the british electorate are too misinformed and in truth too stupid to be trusted with a vote on this.

So Rodders, you think you know better than everyone else?

It's a ridiculous small minded view and shows your opinion is based on you believing your better than everyone else. Pretty much what you accused UKIP of.

Didn't say that, but I know more than a lot of people, in my opinion  - and even I would be reticent in casting a vote in such a huge issue.

I'd want to be clear on the implications of the new treaty for the Eurozone and EU member states and specifically for Britain.

I'd be listening to the opinions of both sides - specifically regarding the economic and social impacts - think tanks representing businesses and universities, health services, community groups.

Everything I've seen or heard so far convinces me we'd be worse off by leaving although that is not a dogmatic view - if there was a cohesive and factual argument presented for leaving which didn't revolve around xenophobia, scaremongering and manipulated immigration figures I might be swsyed, but so far there hasn't been.

Derbymanc wrote:Skye, I assume your FOR independance for Scotland, and if so what other party other than the SNP is arguing FOR Scottish Independance???

Yes for me, although i can understand why the No's have concerns. No other party at all, but you do have voters from all parties who will either being voting YES/NO. Once again i will except either vote, fair and square. The same with an EU referendum, but we don't have that choice! YET

There are also some former influential party figures from the big four who have gone the other way on the YES/NO. Going to get hot up here soon, especially if Scotland get a few Golds in Glasgow. Good timing by Salmond  

rodders wrote:

skyeman wrote:
By the way, why don't you want the vast majority who do, to not have the choice of an in/out referendum? Are you anti-democracy.

I think there is too much misinformation around to have a serious referendum at this time. This is a knee jerk reaction to the new EU banking regulations and at the other end of the spectrum driven by fear mongering about immigration.

With the upcoming Scottish referendum and the country still trying to recover from the 2008 economic crisis this is exactly the wrong time to be considering leaving the EU -even more so with what is going on with Syria and Russia.

The focus should be on working with the other EU member states to resolve the Ukraine crisis, revive the trade deal with the US and raise issues about immigration and fiscal union with other member states with similar concerns.

This is not the time for protectionist foreign policy and taking the ball and going home and quite frankly I think too much of the british electorate are too misinformed and in truth too stupid to be trusted with a vote on this.

The last sentence was what i thought you would say, i was quite impressed until then  

I just thought maybe CS and the great and powerful Rodders (speaker of all people and great intellect,) could show you another party that offered independence and a referendum on Europe as they must know one.

P.S In my experience people that feel that they need to tell people what to do and claim to be smarter/better than someone else, generally isn't.

Derbymanc wrote:Are you honestly saying CS that if you disagree with ONE policy of a party you completely disregard voting for them?

UKIP have only got one policy.......

skyeman wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:Skye, I assume your FOR independance for Scotland, and if so what other party other than the SNP is arguing FOR Scottish Independance???

Yes for me, although i can understand why the No's have concerns. No other party at all, but you do have voters from all parties who will either being voting YES/NO. Once again i will except either vote, fair and square. The same with an EU referendum, but we don't have that choice!  YET

There are also some former influential party figures from the big four who have gone the other way on the YES/NO. Going to get hot up here soon, especially if Scotland get a few Golds in Glasgow. Good timing by Salmond  

Patriotism from the games could have a big effect on the undecided.

Wrong again Truss, just like labour   

http://www.ukip.org/issues

Derbymanc wrote:
P.S In my experience people that feel that they need to tell people what to do and claim to be smarter/better than someone else, generally isn't.

I think you mean generally aren't  

no I meant generally isn't

I think that's a question on the immigration test Derby.

I'm afraid we'll have to deport you and replace you with a shiny new eastern European version with fluent English.

Bet you it ain't

Derbymanc wrote:I just thought maybe CS and the great and powerful Rodders (speaker of all people and great intellect,) could show you another party that offered independence and a referendum on Europe as they must know one.

P.S In my experience people that feel that they need to tell people what to do and claim to be smarter/better than someone else, generally isn't.

  


Not very open minded as to others opinions,  even those people who will vote NO want the referendum ie the 70%.

As stated many times before i will except either vote, fair and square, but they do not want to give that choice until it suits or is more favourable. Frig the majority

rodders wrote:Voting for an anti-European/pro UK party in the MEP election and a pro Europe/anti UK party in the GE.

I think some people don't quite understand the political process.

Exactly my point.

UKIP are anti EU and pro UK whilst the SNP are pro EU and anti UK.

Anyone who finds themself voting for those two parties in two different elections is clearly confused  

CS can you tell us less enlightened people which party you can vote for that offers Scottish Independance AND a referendum on Europe.

OK, I don't think we'll be getting any sensible debate from Rodders or C_S any time soon.

No one agrees 100% with a party - unless you're the party leader, I suppose.

Duty281 wrote:OK, I don't think we'll be getting any sensible debate from Rodders or C_S any time soon.

No one agrees 100% with a party - unless you're the party leader, I suppose.

It's not a minor party policy we are talking about, it is their fundamental goal, their political ideology, their political motivation.

It is a bit like me voting for the BNP in 1 election and then voting for a pro immigration party in the next election.

No it's not, not in the slightest.
Only 1 party is offering Scottish Independance,
Only 1 party is offering a referendum on Europe

Therefore if you want both you have to vote for both and take the rough with the smooth (IE an independant Scotland that may (big massive huge MAY) be apart of Europe.

Derbymanc wrote:CS can you tell us less enlightened people which party you can vote for that offers Scottish Independance AND a referendum on Europe.

I don't think there is any party silly enough to want to be a seperate country from the UK and not join the EU. It would be a catastrophe for Scotland if that did happen. But if youf eel strongly enough about it then I am sure there is some kind of party or political movement that wants it or if not go and create your own political party.

But if you are so anti-EU that you are willing to spend days areguing on a public forum about how bad it is and how anti-democratic it is then there really is no justification in voting for a political party whose political ambition is to be a member of the EU.

Derbymanc wrote:No it's not, not in the slightest.
Only 1 party is offering Scottish Independance,
Only 1 party is offering a referendum on Europe

Therefore if you want both you have to vote for both and take the rough with the smooth (IE an independant Scotland that may (big massive huge MAY) be apart of Europe.

But it is counter-productive as the party that is offering Scottish independence from the UK is trying to force through a policy that Scotland will join the EU and the party that is offering the UK independence from the EU is also in favour of keeping Scotland a member of the UK.

Its the ONLY option available though, thats the point

Can I also make the point that I'm actually against Scotland becoming Indepent and am definately for us leaving the EU or a tightening up of the regulations that would benefit ALL of the EU countries.

I'm also FOR political parties being held to the promises they have made and am of the belief that the reason a lot of people are so adamant about there being a referendum is that it has been promised on numerous occasions by different parties.

How can I put this simply?

In an ideal world, Skyeman wants to live in an independent Scotland that isn't in the EU.

Presently, there is not a party that supports both.

In terms of his priority, an independent Scotland comes ahead of the issue of leaving the EU - and fair enough, because a vote for Scottish independence is once in a lifetime.

He is using his vote in next week's election as a protest, because he doesn't want his country to be in the EU.

Barring not voting, which would be worse, this is the only way, because, as I've already said, no one agrees with a party's manifesto 100%.

(I think I've got that right, Skyeman!)

Derbymanc wrote:Bet you it ain't

  

Back to the other point - UKIP and the SNP are two diametrically opposed parties, it really is nonsensical that anyone would consider voting for both parties.

Secondly an independent Scotland which is outside the EU? hmm that's one for the Scots to decide but probably not a wise direction for those who prefer first world living standards to be maintained for the foreseeable future.

What part of "protest vote" are you struggling with, Rodders?

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

Duty281 wrote:OK, I don't think we'll be getting any sensible debate from Rodders or C_S any time soon.

No one agrees 100% with a party - unless you're the party leader, I suppose.

It's not a minor party policy we are talking about, it is their fundamental goal, their political ideology, their political motivation.

It is a bit like me voting for the BNP in 1 election and then voting for a pro immigration party in the next election.

Pro EU yes.

It is not the parties main goal, not the reason why they are in a majority government. And most definitely not their political motivation.

And the comparion was no more than i would expect.

Duty281 wrote:How can I put this simply?

In an ideal world, Skyeman wants to live in an independent Scotland that isn't in the EU.

Presently, there is not a party that supports both.

In terms of his priority, an independent Scotland comes ahead of the issue of leaving the EU - and fair enough, because a vote for Scottish independence is once in a lifetime.

He is using his vote in next week's election as a protest, because he doesn't want his country to be in the EU.

Barring not voting, which would be worse, this is the only way, because, as I've already said, no one agrees with a party's manifesto 100%.

(I think I've got that right, Skyeman!)

Spot on  

Farage is a douche

That's all I have to add

Well I thought you made yourself perfectly clear, Skyeman.   

rodders wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:Bet you it ain't

  

Back to the other point - UKIP and the SNP are two diametrically opposed parties, it really is nonsensical that anyone would consider voting for both parties.

Secondly an independent Scotland which is outside the EU? hmm that's one for the Scots to decide but probably not a wise direction for those who prefer first world living standards to be maintained for the foreseeable future.

That is ridiculous.

An Independant Scotland could cope just as well as the rest of the UK could outside the EU. VERY IGNORANT TOO.

Olly wrote:Farage is a douche

That's all I have to add

Short and sweet  

But do you not see Duty, it's not the same as what Rodders and CS say so it cant be right.   
(just kidding you two).

  for everyone

Six days left, still undecided anyone  

skyeman wrote:
An Independant Scotland could cope just as well as the rest of the UK could outside the EU.

Pretty badly then.

Mind you even with the law of diminishing returns one would fancy the chances of a country with 60 odd million people, a permanent member of the UN security council and with trade deals already in place with many other of the worlds largest economies may fair slightly better than a small economy with 5-6 million people and a new currency outside the EU.