Toulon fans rejoice - Alain Rolland confirmed as ref for HC final. Garces gets Amlin Final.

First topic message reminder :

http://www.ercrugby.com/news/28481.php#.U2PI8YFdWa8


http://www.ercrugby.com/heinekencup/news/28478.php

Everything going the way of Toulon so far. They also get to have their own kit.

You might say - oh Beshocked you're making excuses already etc. You shouldn't blame the ref.

Saracens struggle when Rolland is referee - that's just the reality. We lost to Toulon last season - guess who was the ref? Loss to Clermont in the quarter finals? You guessed correctly - Rolland reffed that match. Loss to Toulouse away from home this season? Yup Rolland again.

Now I am not saying that we lost because Rolland was the ref but obviously he's a ref that as a team we have struggled with for whatever reason.

The only game in recent memory I can remember when Rolland reffed us when we have beaten French opposition was vs Racing Metro. We almost lost because of a very poor decision he made near the beginning of the match. This incident rocked our early momentum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn7sXouUXBI

Rolland does not even give a yellow card for this..... first the Racing Metro player shoulder charges one Saracens player then clotheslines Strettle and knocks him out.


Doesn't help my opinion of Rolland when you look at his heritage - French father and French name, plus his truly atrocious reffing style - "me,me,me!" I am going to be whistle happy!

His style of reffing also suits a side like Toulon who have been winning matches through penalty machine Jonny.

Obviously I am not happy about this. Would have much preferred the far superior Nigel Owens.

Beshocked...you have lots to be concerned about...

Some Facts about Monsewer Rolland.

1. He eats croissants for breakfast.
2. He drives a renault.
3. He holidays in France.
4. He celebrates Bastille day.
5. His children are called Nicole and Jean-Pierre
6. Even though in public he has an annoying Southside Dublin accent in reality he speaks English with a french accent.
7. After he retires he is revoking his Irish passport and taking up French citizenship.
8. I once saw him whistling along to "La Marseillaise" at the start of a French game.
9. He speaks French to French people (especially on rugby pitches) - cant trust that sort.
10. His previous car was a Peugeot.

Lots to be concerned about...

beshocked wrote:VinceWLB Yes we have had the rub of the green and I feel that's partly down to not having Rolland as ref.

Equally I find it ironic that criticism of Rolland is not allowed yet criticism of Owens and Garces is.

Rolland is a ref I have disliked long before this match. I said before the Ulster game I was pleased we didn't have him, pleased before the Clermont game he was not picked.

The ref has an unhealthy amount of influence on a match generally - Rolland brings that to another level - he's the star of the show. His style of reffing is awful in my opinion.

Hound and Harrow a ref who speaks French is unnecessary for a team like Toulon who barely have any Frenchman in their 23.

Toulon don't have many Frenchman in their team but they are still French in name. Of course Toulon are pleased they have a half Frenchman who favours their style of play.

http://www.espn.co.uk/premiership-2013-14/rugby/story/224025.html

I still hope my team can win but we have an uphill battle even before the game has started.

Munchkin let's be honest you hope Saracens lose because you still feel bitter Saracens knocked Ulster out in the 2nd consecutive HC.

As to why I am passionate about this - this is one of our biggest games of the season. I don't want to blame the ref - yet if you pick a ref like Rolland - calls of bias are inevitable, especially when the French pressured the ERC to pick him.

That isn't honesty, beshocked. I am not bitter about the Sarries in the slightest. As disappointed as I am about the Payne red card, the Sarries were not at fault for that, and so I have no reason to be bitter against them for the loss.
As far as the final is concerned, I hope it's a great game as a neutral. Beyond that I have no real interest as to who wins.

You're a bit of a whinge, beshocked. You whined leading up to the Ulster game, and you whined after the Ulster game, even though your team won it. Now your whining leading up to the Toulon game, and no doubt you will find some reason to have a good old whine after it.
I don't know, maybe the reason you whine so much is simply to spark interest? Maybe not. Maybe you're slightly paranoid, and more than a little precious? That would be in contrast to the fans who travelled over to Ulster for the game. They had a great time in Ulster, a great time with the Ulster fans, loved the atmosphere, as heated as it was at times, enjoyed their win, and enjoyed their celebrations. As it should be.

ME-109 wrote:Beshocked...you have lots to be concerned about...

Some Facts about Monsewer Rolland.

1. He eats croissants for breakfast.
2. He drives a renault.
3. He holidays in France.
4. He celebrates Bastille day.
5. His children are called Nicole and Jean-Pierre
6. Even though in public he has an annoying Southside Dublin accent in reality he speaks English with a french accent.
7. After he retires he is revoking his Irish passport and taking up French citizenship.
8. I once saw him whistling along to "La Marseillaise" at the start of a French game.
9. He speaks French to French people (especially on rugby pitches) - cant trust that sort.
10. His previous car was a Peugeot.

Lots to be concerned about...

indeed...He even talks to French captain by calling him simply "Pascal" ! (this is actually true)

that didnt prevent France to get trashed by Wales and be on the wrong side of a couple of scrum decisions though so here's some hope for you Beshocked ! he also gave a red card to a french player at least once (fritz against wasps in 2011) so you are bordering on paranoia.

He crossed that border a long time ago

There really is only one area where teams need to beware with Rolland. He is very quick to penalise infringements at the breakdown - not releasing the tackled player and holding onto the ball in the tackle. However, he is equally harsh on both teams in this respect.

This is in contrast to most other refs who will allow play to continue at the breakdown for a few seconds to see if the 'infringed against' team can secure the ball before awarding a penalty.

Once teams understand Rolland's approach to the breakdown they can avoid penalties. With two of the most accurate kickers likely to be playing, penalties could be decisive.

beshocked wrote:Pete I acknowledge we got the rub of the green. Does not mean we would have still not won - we crushed Clermont, with Ulster who knows? Sometimes Saracens switch off/get complacent when things seem too easy,even though the game isn't won.

I just find it comical that mainly Irish fans think it's acceptable that because Saracens have a bit of fortune it means we should have one of the  most controversial refs for the final.

You can call Alain Rolland Irish but he's always be of French heritage like Kevin Pietersen will always be seen as South African by some, North English, Manu Tuilagi Samoan, Eoin Morgan Irish etc.

Representing another country does not take away that attachment/identity with another.

It's not even French bias - I would rather have Poite,Gauzere or Garces. Just because I rate them higher.

I wish I could share your optimism.

Beshocked, difference between Rolland and KP, Tuilagi, Morgan etc is that he was born and raised in Ireland, not sure which of his parents is French but he has lived his entire life in Ireland apart from presumably lots of holliers in France. I'm married to a Canadian who came to Ireland 30 years ago and fell in love with this Irish hunk, my son has two passports and two citizenships (thanks be to jaysus for that in these sh1t times) but ask him if he's Canadian and he'd probably level ya (OK he takes an inordinate in the NHL ice hockey). Same goes no doubt with Rolland, he might have dual citizenship through parentage but he was brung up in Ireland, played rugby for Ireland. Rolland has his faults but would you seriously take Poite over him!

Poite to ref the scrums and Owens or Barnes for everything else.

Hey Hound, are you looking for this wasp-stade francais double encounter? Might be only a play off game but the fact we get a return fixture is quite new so should be interesting.

I will go to the home game, not the game in Paris. I will be going to the HCup final in Cardiff.

Wasps need to build a good lead in the first game to have any chance.
At least SF are one of the French teams who take both Euro competitions seriously.

Hound of Harrow wrote:There really is only one area where teams need to beware with Rolland. He is very quick to penalise infringements at the breakdown - not releasing the tackled player and holding onto the ball in the tackle. However, he is equally harsh on both teams in this respect.

This is in contrast to most other refs who will allow play to continue at the breakdown for a few seconds to see if the 'infringed against' team can secure the ball before awarding a penalty.

Once teams understand Rolland's approach to the breakdown they can avoid penalties. With two of the most accurate kickers likely to be playing, penalties could be decisive.

The problem with Rolland's style is this generally leads to a stodgy game in my opinion. In my opinion (you're welcome to disagree) this type of game is something that Toulon will prefer. Toulon have the potential to play a more open game with the players at their disposal but generally resort to the boot of Jonny.

In contrast Saracens have tried to expand their attacking repertoire and a lot of that has hinged on the breakdown. Would Rolland have allowed Saracens the number of turnovers they got vs Clermont? Let's be honest - probably not.

Both sides will of course need to adapt to Rolland, I just feel that for whatever reason Toulon are more comfortable doing that than Saracens. You would be well within your right to say that Saracens' fault. They should become more proficient at dancing to the tune of Rolland.

I just find it frustating when a ref's decisions seem to become more important in shaping a match than the players - whether luck goes for you or against you.

It's just a shame that the choice of ref - Rolland or Owens -is such a different one. Suppose it goes back to the inconsistency and interpretation that is a problem in rugby. Coaches now have to do an in depth analysis of not just the opposition players but also the ref.

In an ideal world surely you would want all refs on the same wavelength?

If we lose - I probably won't blame Rolland - the coaches and players should know what to expect - adapt accordingly.

Rolland wasn't my first choice, not even my 2nd,third, fourth, but he's the man in charge. I just hope my team make the ref as irrelevant as possible as the ref should be.

They say the best refs are the ones you don't notice.....

On a side note I think Luke Pearce has made excellent progress - from looking like a rabbit caught in headlights last year, I thought he did well looking after the Sarries-Saints game this time round.

Awarding the HC to Rolland is nothing more than a pat on the back, it has nothing to do with how well he has done over the season etc, for the showcase event the best Ref around should take charge and Rolland certainly isn't the right choice, his stop start style is annoying watch and will destroy the game as a spectacle.

Scrumpy wrote:Awarding the HC to Rolland is nothing more than a pat on the back, it has nothing to do with how well he has done over the season etc, for the showcase event the best Ref around should take charge and Rolland certainly isn't the right choice, his stop start style is annoying watch and will destroy the game as a spectacle.

I don't know how many finals you have watched, but they are rarely spectacules.

Sin é wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Awarding the HC to Rolland is nothing more than a pat on the back, it has nothing to do with how well he has done over the season etc, for the showcase event the best Ref around should take charge and Rolland certainly isn't the right choice, his stop start style is annoying watch and will destroy the game as a spectacle.

I don't know how many finals you have watched, but they are rarely spectacules.

Like a spectacle - only 'cooler'?

Sin e the Leinster-Northampton was a good one.

I enjoyed the Leinster-Ulster one too even though it was one sided.

Personally I find it's been the all french finals which have been snooze fests.

Rolland is a poor referee. Good luck Sarries

beshocked - this may sound odd, but I believe Rolland referees the breakdown the way he does to encourage quick ball - the players need to realise that.

S. Armitage will win lots of turnover penalties if he gets his mitts on the ball at the breakdown and Sarries players don't release. The answer is to have players clearing out the defenders quickly.

Pass this piece of advice on to McCall. No charge

Hound of Harrow wrote:beshocked - this may sound odd, but I believe Rolland referees the breakdown the way he does to encourage quick ball - the players need to realise that.

S. Armitage will win lots of turnover penalties if he gets his mitts on the ball at the breakdown and Sarries players don't release. The answer is to have players clearing out the defenders quickly.

Pass this piece of advice on to McCall. No charge

Phew....end of emergency...and lowering of paranoia levels...