Pro12 Final 31/5

First topic message reminder :

The Ladyboys v The Soap Dodgers
At RDS Dublin, 6.15pm.

Live on RTE/BBC ALBA/ BBC WALES/TG4/Mediaset

Referee: Nigel Owens (WRU, 111th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Leighton Hodges, Ian Davies (both WRU)
Citing Commissioner: Maurizio Vancini (FIR)
TMO: Derek Bevan (WRU)

***
Glasgay

15. Peter Murchie
14. Sean Maitland
13. Alex Dunbar
12. Peter Horne
11. Tommy Seymour
10. Finn Russell
9. Chris Cusiter

1. Gordon Reid
2. Dougie Hall
3. Jon Welsh
4. Jonny Gray
5. Al Kellock
6. Rob Harley
7. Chris Fusaro
8. Josh Strauss

16. Pat MacArthur
17. Ryan Grant
18. Moray Low
19. Tim Swinson
20. Leone Nakarawa
21. Niko Matawalu
22. Ruaridh Jackson
23. Sean Lamont

Cuige Laighean

15: Rob Kearney
14: Fergus McFadden
13: Brian O'Driscoll
12: Gordon D'Arcy
11: Zane Kirchner
10: Jimmy Gopperth
9: Eoin Reddan
1: Cian Healy
2: Sean Cronin
3: Mike Ross
4: Devin Toner
5: Mike McCarthy
6: Rhys Ruddock
7: Shane Jennings
8: Jamie Heaslip CAPTAIN

REPLACEMENTS:
16: Aaron Dundon
17: Jack McGrath
18: Martin Moore
19: Leo Cullen
20: Sean O'Brien
21: Isaac Boss
22: Ian Madigan
23: Darragh Fanning

I hope Big Al the ruck inspector steps up to the physicallity of this game and is not just going to "run line outs"

Going to be an almighty bash at the breakdown with both teams having fire-power on the bench!

[Journalist presses 'start' button on Rugbyhackograph 2.0]

"Glasgow will be without Stuart Hogg, their bestest player ever, when they take to the field in the Rabo12 Pro Direct Celtic Leaguey Magners Championship on Saturday. This match has been scheduled after the final in which Owen and Billy are playing, but before the final featuring Jonny, who's also really humble in case we forgot to mention it. For Lannister, this will also be Brian O'Driscoll's last game, and he's their bestest player ever, but still not as good as Jonny.

Glasgow have won nine straight games against some other teams, but they're playing against Lannister at the RBS Arena, which will be a really tough place to play because it isn't in Glasgow. Alastair Kellogg's will captain Glasgow Rangers, then make a quick auto-gyro flight to Dublin to also lead the Warriors. He's quite a guy, and he played for Scotland a few times.

Lannister will look to overcome recent troubles with the House of Stark by becoming the first team to defend their throne in ages. They have left the BFG on the bench, but have retained the Robot from News of the World, who's really tall.

Lannister coach Paul O'Conner says that Glasgow are favourites, but since they don't have any star names we don't really think they are.

Who will win? We have absolutely no idea."

Brilliant, Bru - I can actually hear it (or is that the voices back again?)

Other significant weegie calls from Toonie are Jacko over Weir, with the former departing and the latter being retained; plus Low over Cross, which reverses how they finished the 6Ns - pleased that Low will get one final run out (like pretty Rob, it will be his 150th Glasgow appearance) before heading to the shire

Bru   

Dammit, dammit all to hell. Having spent since the semi refusing to post my XV for this game I find myself gazumped.
I was in the gym this morn with Bigson, "Pit mair weight oan that bar" and he asked me who I thought would be selected. He looked askance when I put Hornee Furra at 12 and Dunbar at 13. The only one I got wrong was to argue that Holmes might be a more physical seven than Fozzie. So, either I am a genius or Toonie has slipped up bigtime.  
Going forward I think Hornee will have to much gas for Darcy. In defence : BOD against Ecky the Brawler should be worth watching. And the collisions around the breakdown will probably be measured on the Richter scale.
Actually having seen the teams I can't say that one looks any better than t'other. It may come down to an errant bounce of the ball, or a dodgy decision from the TMO.
Finally, to all my Warrior posrs: BELIEVE. To the rest of you: enjoy the game.
p.s. notice how early pre-season has to start when you're my age?

And in true BBC style there's absolutely no mention of the teams on the rugby front page.

Apparently the Falcons extending the contract of a player hardly anyone has heard of is more important!

Only a couple of calls worth talking about on the Glasgow side:

1. Schlong instead of the Messiah on the bench. That's a big call. Bennett is more of a game breaker and has made tries out of nothing this season, so that's a missed opportunity for me. Perhaps experience matters more for a final in the eyes of Toonie, though, and you can be sure that Sean will work his arse off. Still not a 'form' pick, though, which is disappointing.

2. Kellock instead of Swinson starting. Mind you, it worked well against Munster. Expect Al to come off after about 30 minutes, having inspected more rucks than his eyes can handle. Happy enough with this. Al gets on well with Nigel Owens.

3. Horne instead of Bennett starting. Marginal call, hope Peter is now fully fit. He will have had enough time to prove it. What we would lose with Bennett's line breaking, we gain with Horne's vision and footballing skills. Either way, a great centre pairing.

4. Low instead of Cross on the bench. This is also a big call and I don't think is the right one. Leinster front row will be "cunning as a bag of weasels" (RIP Bill McLaren) and we need a technician. Cross is a technician. Low is not, he's just a 20 stone bloke. That said, it will mean a lot to Moray to have one final crack in a Glasgow jersey.

5. Murchie instead of Hogg. The pathetically ignorant mainstream rugby press will hype this as Toonie's 'big' selection call. Anyone who knows anything about Glasgow's season will know that it is less controversial than the other 4 mentioned above.

In summary, all of Glasgow's 23 are full cap internationls apart from Strauss (who can still play a bit, don't worry) and Russell (who will be capped this summer).

Leinster look as weak and rubbishey as we expected.

Ah George, can the Messiah play back row to the same high standard as Schlong?
Actually that's a helluva bench for us. The only concern is if we were to lose Dunbar early and have Russell and Hornee with Jacko at 10.
Still, feeling confident I am. In a Jedi kind of way.
WE ARE GLASGOW WE FEAR NO-ONE  

It is, as was said by both coaches this week, basically a test match.

Toonie says Hogg not playing is down to form and that he expects him to be playing for Glasgow next year.

If that is the case then I am happy with that, you can't really argue about Murchie playing on form over Hogg, who just has not quite fired this year. I would also be pleased to hear that all the speculation about fallings out were nonsense and the rumours about moving on were just rumours. It was always going to be a big deal for a young player to break a contract and move on, it really does not happen very often in rugby. George North is the only one I can think of and that was not his choice but that of his team.

I will be very glad to see him playing for us next year, even if it is just for one more season, hopefully older and wiser and ready to fight for his place!

BigGee wrote:Toonie says Hogg not playing is down to form and that he expects him to be playing for Glasgow next year.

If that is the case then I am happy with that, you can't really argue about Murchie playing on form over Hogg, who just has not quite fired this year. I would also be pleased to hear that all the speculation about fallings out were nonsense and the rumours about moving on were just rumours. It was always going to be a big deal for a young player to break a contract and move on, it really does not happen very often in rugby. George North is the only one I can think of and that was not his choice but that of his team.

I will be very glad to see him playing for us next year, even if it is just for one more season, hopefully older and wiser and ready to fight for his place!

Where did you see that? I'd be over the moon if it did turn out to be false and that he is staying another year.

I think it was from the press conference, various people quoting it on Twitter

Glasgow were/are looking for compensation for the rest of Hogg's contract - Ulster are not prepared to pay it.
If Glasgow insist they will go elsewhere for a 15

geoff998rugby wrote:Glasgow were/are looking for compensation for the rest of Hogg's contract - Ulster are not prepared to pay it.
If Glasgow insist they will go elsewhere for a 15

You seem to get a lot of insider info! Are you Humphries in disguise??   

Dam straight Ulster would have to pay compensation - especially for such a prized asset.

geoff998rugby wrote:Glasgow were/are looking for compensation for the rest of Hogg's contract - Ulster are not prepared to pay it.
If Glasgow insist they will go elsewhere for a 15

Aw Geoff, you could have allowed us more than 15 minutes of hope.  

The compensation wanted takes him over the salary rate we are prepared to pay - especially when he would be missing during the international windows.

Outside of central contracts we only have 2 players over the ceiling we are prepared to pay for new contracts and Hogg is not as important to us as Pienaer or Henry.

My money is on Hogg not joining Ulster for this reason but I do not think it is beyond the bounds of feasilbilty that Glasgow will cave in.
Ulster won't. In the end it comes down to a question of do Glasgow want to keep him and is he prepared to stay.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

BigGee wrote:Toonie says Hogg not playing is down to form and that he expects him to be playing for Glasgow next year.

If that is the case then I am happy with that, you can't really argue about Murchie playing on form over Hogg, who just has not quite fired this year. I would also be pleased to hear that all the speculation about fallings out were nonsense and the rumours about moving on were just rumours. It was always going to be a big deal for a young player to break a contract and move on, it really does not happen very often in rugby. George North is the only one I can think of and that was not his choice but that of his team.

I will be very glad to see him playing for us next year, even if it is just for one more season, hopefully older and wiser and ready to fight for his place!

Where did you see that? I'd be over the moon if it did turn out to be false and that he is staying another year.

To be fair, I'm not sure that Toonie could have said anything else? He's not about to confirm that Hoggy is leaving which then becomes the main story, takes the focus away from the game tomorrow night, and potentially sows discord within the suqad

I suppose the word 'expect' still comes with some degree of doubt.

I'd say it was more positive though - he could have just declined to comment, which would have been a sure sign he was leaving!

I suspect its simply a clash of ideas - the Hawick way vs the Gala way

RDW_Scotland wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Glasgow were/are looking for compensation for the rest of Hogg's contract - Ulster are not prepared to pay it.
If Glasgow insist they will go elsewhere for a 15

You seem to get a lot of insider info! Are you Humphries in disguise??   

Dam straight Ulster would have to pay compensation - especially for such a prized asset.

Fixed that for you sir

No charge

geoff998rugby wrote:The compensation wanted takes him over the salary rate we are prepared to pay - especially when he would be missing during the international windows.

Outside of central contracts we only have 2 players over the ceiling we are prepared to pay for new contracts and Hogg is not as important to us as Pienaer or Henry.

My money is on Hogg not joining Ulster for this reason but I do not think it is beyond the bounds of feasilbilty that Glasgow will cave in.
Ulster won't. In the end it comes down to a question of do Glasgow want to keep him and is he prepared to stay.

There are other complications too, Geoff. Townsend has knit a squad together very tightly and anyone who seeks to jeopordise that to try and obtain more folding will not be looked upon kindly, regardless of whom they are. The SRU has just netted 25 million squid from BT for naming Murrayfield, so it's not (for once) as though Glasgow is desperate for the money. No player is bigger than the team and big names like Johnny Beattie, Kelly Brown and Ritchie Gray all showed that they were eminently dispensible when they left.

What I'm saying is that it even if Hogg is "prepared to stay" and condescend to see out the rest of his contract, it may still be better for the squad as a whole if he left, and Townsend knows that.

Asking that the remainder of a contract be bought out is hardly the strangest thing in the world and it's not as though Hogg will be short of suitors. Practically, I think that a compromise will be reached on price but if not, Hogg will just find a Jeff or Top 14 club. It will look better for Townsend if his side is not facing off against Hogg next season in any event.

For what it's worth, given the other squad cover available it's fairly unarguable that Hogg is less important to Ulster than Pienaar or Henry.

If Hogg has been actively trying to force a move and Glasgow were the only thing to stand in the way, I have to say Hogg's position at Glasgow is surely untenable.

As GC says - it won't be great for the team moral if Hogg is there next year and everyone knows he was trying to leave.

There are more 'ifs' in this conversation than a YeSNP referendum promise...

aye, all this talk of Hogg has scared away our Irish buddies!

  

tis like an Irish ghost town!

IanBru wrote:There are more 'ifs' in this conversation than a YeSNP referendum promise...

But not quite the same multiple as Danny Alexander applies to costings   

This Hogg business is quite a distraction...

...Keep it up

Well I dont know the full story but what I have been told is if Glasgow drop the demand for compensation he will probably join, if they don't Ulster will walk away and look elsewhere

geoff998rugby wrote:Well I dont know the full story but what I have been told is if Glasgow drop the demand for compensation he will probably join, if they don't Ulster will walk away and look elsewhere

If the SRU don't hold out for some level of compensation, what message does it send out to the other players and the other clubs. That the contracts are not worth the paper they are written on?

Its a difficult situation as nobody wants to keep an unhappy player. But if Hogg does not get his move, with it being a World Cup year coming up and if he is nothing but professional next season it really says a lot about his character.

Either he stays and runs out his contract and he can move where he wants or the club gets the compensation they think fair.

Mickado wrote:This Hogg business is quite a distraction...

...Keep it up

Ha.

Its not been a disraction for the players as its been rumbling on for weeks. He was not selected for the Munster game and the players got on with it.

I will be there as will lots more of us Glasgow fans cheering on the players who are playing tomorrow, not worrying about those who are not.

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:

Mickado wrote:This Hogg business is quite a distraction...

...Keep it up

Ha.

Its not been a disraction for the players as its been rumbling on for weeks. He was not selected for the Munster game and the players got on with it.

I will be there as will lots more of us Glasgow fans cheering on the players who are playing tomorrow, not worrying about those who are not.

Man Dot. Enjoy your stay in the Ol Town, mo chara.    

Believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm99WtK_hPE

Here's to a lot of this tomorrow:

Just watched the interview with GT and there did not seem to be any doubt about where Hoggy will be next season.

I now suspect that he won't be going anywhere next year, I think if he was it would have been wrapped up by now and Tonnie would have left his answer a little more open than he did. Don't forget that he is now going to be out of the country for the next month on tour, in a different environment, lots of travelling and a new coach to impress. Plenty to keep his mind occupied. When he gets back it is going to be a couple of weeks on holiday, then back into pre-season.

Glasgow don't need to let him go, he is not on massive money yet, that will come with his next contract, so they can afford to sit on him should they wish. If he really is unhappy there and choose to listen to some advice from any wise old sage, they would no doubt advise him to get his head down, put all this behind him and play to get back in the team. If nothing else it will push up his value when he becomes a free agent at the end of next season. To really do that he needs to get back into the Glasgow and Scotland teams, which now, with others playing so well, is not going to be the formality of before.

Probably worth saying again at this stage that there never really has been any real evidence that he is not happy at Glasgow, other than a dirty look at Niko when he pinched his try, probably understandable in the circumstances. The rest of it is all hearsay and rumour. If there is any truth in any of it, it has no doubt been much exaggerated as well.

Hoggy will move on from Glasgow at some stage, he is potentially a good enough player to play for a bigger club and earn top dollar in the game. I would not begrudge him that chance when it comes along, but hopefully it will not be for at least another season, maybe even longer.

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Well I dont know the full story but what I have been told is if Glasgow drop the demand for compensation he will probably join, if they don't Ulster will walk away and look elsewhere

If the SRU don't hold out for some level of compensation, what message does it send out to the other players and the other clubs.  That the contracts are not worth the paper they are written on?

Its a difficult situation as nobody wants to keep an unhappy player.  But if Hogg does not get his move, with it being a World Cup year coming up and if he is nothing but professional next season it really says a lot about his character.

Either he stays and runs out his contract and he can move where he wants or the club gets the compensation they think fair.

Ulster just signed Louis Ludik. Sounds like Hogg was too much bother to pursue further. Good chance Agen failing to get promoted helped.

I think Hogg might yet end up at Saracens because as far as I know buying out his contract doesn't count against the salary cap. But he ain't coming to Belfast, thats for sure. Despite those people swearing to his good character and his obvious talent, I'm relieved.

a) If he acts like this with regards to honouring his Glasgow contract, whats to say he'll honour his contract with us if it doesn't go his way?
b) Ludik will be available all season and has no international commitments, and I think we should target the Pro12 next year. Consistency is key and we'll be struggling without Trimble, Bowe, Marshall, Payne, Jackson etc. in those windows.

Visser tweeted that he was flying off to Texas tomorrow, so presumably the players not involved in the cup final will be flying out before the others and will make up the bulk of the first team to play the USA.

Hopefully Hoggy will be on that flight. It will be good for both him and the Glasgow team to be out of sight and out of mind now. He can get acquainted with Mr Cotter whilst the mighty warriors get on with their business.

Niko does have a knack of, generally, scoring / setting up scores at turning point moments...

lets all remember that no one, not Toonie, not any glasgow player inc Hogg himself have said anything along the lines of Hogg not beng happy or Hogg being too big for his boots!

We could easily see a happy Hogg starting at 15 for the weeg in the first game of the season, firing on all cylinders and assusing his place in the Scotland team!

tigertattie wrote:lets all remember that no one, not Toonie, not any glasgow player inc Hogg himself have said anything along the lines of Hogg not beng happy or Hogg being too big for his boots!

We could easily see a happy Hogg starting at 15 for the weeg in the first game of the season, firing on all cylinders and assusing his place in the Scotland team!

Exactly, let's hope so!

To be fair tattie, no one is going to come out in public saying he is unhappy are they?

Would be good to here from those who say they have insider info - was it Maj and CraigS?

I don't think Hogg will come out in public, I'm not sure he's that bothered but his Mr. 10% agent definitely is. I would say almost all of this is the work of an agent.

RDW_Scotland wrote:To be fair tattie, no one is going to come out in public saying he is unhappy are they?

Would be good to here from those who say they have insider info - was it Maj and CraigS?

I know a couple of the Glasgow players and neither have said anything about Hogg being difficult or anything like that. He can be hot headed at times which I've seen but from what I have heard he gets on with the rest of the squad.

As a neutral I'm really looking forward to this one (I'm English, am I even allowed to post on this thread ). I don't get to watch that much Pro12 but enjoyed the semi's especially the Leinster Ulster game game which was super intense and committed. Feel Leinster are slightly stronger on paper but the Glasgow loose forward trio are about even with their Irish counterparts and this is where the game could be won.

Going to go with a Leinster win seeing as they are at home but hopefully it will be a close game that goes right down to the wire.

Welcome B9 - don't let the celtic cliques put you off, they're nothing special

I think home advantage will take it too. A shame Glasgow couldn't secure more BPs this season - they won more games!

Thank you for the welcome Ineffable. It is a bit of a shame about the games location - think playing the game anywhere else would have just about completely evened the teams up.

I do think that Townsend has done such a great job. Only seems like yesterday that the fans were up in arms about his appointment and Sean Lineen's 'roll change'. Almost looks like future Scotland coach material now, not many would have said that during his reign as Andy Robinson's assistant.

Welcome B9.
Toonie planned to avoid accruing BP's. This way we get revenge for last season's semi [b]in their front room[b] as it were.
Remember: anyone can get revenge but a Glaswegian will embarrass you at your granny's funeral given half a chance.

Jayziz we'll miss seeing this:

RDW_Scotland wrote:To be fair tattie, no one is going to come out in public saying he is unhappy are they?

That's very true RDW, old mucker, but it's hardly evidence of anything.

I wouldn't come out in public and admit to being an ill-tempered mutated seabass, but thus far only Jimbo and Schitz can attest to the truth of any rumours concerning my status as a Centropristis striata.

I'm not saying it's evidence, but it can't be used as evidence to the contrary!

Gibson wrote:Jayziz we'll miss seeing this. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rSgHc7hlA7Y

Very nice. Glad they showed the assists as well as the tries.

Feel incredibly sorry for whomever has to replace him. When we see someone with that level of ability again, it's almost a statistical certainty that he won't be Irish. Feel sorry for teenage Irish rugby fans who think that they get one of these players every rotation. That's not even tongue in cheek.