Ulster 2014/2015

First topic message reminder :

Details of pre-season games to confirmed- we take on Exeter Chiefs at Ravenhill on Friday the 22nd August and then travel to Donnybrook to face Leinster on Friday the 29th August. On the transfer front, it seems like our business for the year is concluded. Second row looks strong and our back line is stronger than ever, but there are concerns about our depth in the front row and back row of the pack. A lot depends on Wiehahn Herbst turning out to be a hit and Chris Henry staying fit- our decision to spend a valuable NIQ spot on Louis Ludik and Sean Doyles departure leaves us exposed at open side with two new, extremely untested players in Reidy and Butterworth vying to be Henrys understudy. Rob Herring is another player who needs to avoid injury at all costs. Niall Annett has been allowed to leave along with Brady in recent seasons and the 3rd choice hooker is not obvious. With seedings in Europe determined by league performance, Ulster may very well rue their lack of depth in the forward pack come May.

Players Out
Johann Muller (retired), Paddy Wallace (retired), Stephen Ferris (retired), Chris Cochrane (retired), Chris Farrell (Grenoble), Niall Annett (Worcester), John Afoa (Gloucester), Tom Court (London Irish), James McKinney (Rotherham), David McIlwaine (Rotherham), Paddy McAllister (Aurillac), Sean Doyle (ACT Brumbies), Adam Macklin (Rotherham), Ian Porter (Connacht)

Players In
Franco van der Merwe (Golden Lions), Louis Ludik (Agen), Wiehahn Herbst (Natal Sharks), Ruaidhrí Murphy (ACT Brumbies), Dave Ryan (Zebre), Ian Humphreys (London Irish), Charlie Butterworth (Lansdowne), Sean Reidy (Counties Manukau)

Ulster don't do turbulent off seasons but if we did...

We've also been rocked with the seismic revelation David Humphreys is leaving the province- indeed has already left- for Gloucester. Anscombe was slated to be seeing out the last year of his contract before being quietly let go but the Humphreys bombshell left him as the odd man out, and he's been pushed out the door. The decision was partly because he was hired to work under a Director of Rugby and Ulster are looking for someone with more experience in the market to take on Humphreys role in addition to the coaching responsibilities. As usual, the rumour mill is on overdrive and opinions are polarised- but this is Ulster Rugby after all. Les Kiss is our interim Director of Rugby and it seems Allen Clarke is filling the role of forwards coach in the short term. More changes or appointments could be forthcoming.

If all that wasn't enough we've been dealt a real group of death in the new Champions Cup- double-winners Toulon will brave the Ravenhill roar along with old friends Leicester Tigers and old foes the Scarlets. All in all, this team should be capable of securing a Top 4 finish at the very least in the Pro12 and we need to target the top two, our prospects in Europe look more occluded- it might come down to best runners-up and our pool promises to be tight and competitive.

Opening fixtures

F; Exeter Chiefs (H)
F; Leinster (A)

Pro12; Scarlets (A)
Pro12; Zebre (H)
Pro12; Cardiff Blues (A)
Pro12; Zebre (A)
Pro12; Edinburgh (H)

Standulstermen wrote:

Sin é wrote:Maybe the IRFU decided enough was enough and decided they wanted their man in there. Maybe they are peed off that Humphreys took off to Gloucester after all the backing they have given him with extra 1m cash etc.

Sears (former CEO of Connacht) didn't have a rugby background like Logan - maybe they are afraid that Logan might have similar problems without a rugby head involved.

If the irfu we're putting 'their man' in anywhere at the minute it would be Munster Sin. Given they have had to renegotiate their debt and apply for a cash injection from the IRFU this year. Ulster were (rightly) underfunded for years under the previous boss but Logan has done very well from a business perspective.

I don't know about how Kiss is regarded from a coaching perspective in the irfu but I suspect this is purely about helping Ulster out in the short term with potential long term implications

Stand, Ulster have been having regular implosions over the last number of year. Christ, you would think Munster were throwing money at foreign signings! They have just redeveloped a 26K stadium (at a cost of 48m) and still owe the IRFU 10m on it. They are getting a purpose built training centre and redeveloping their 2nd ground (does any other club in the world have 2 grounds - most don't even have a pot to pee in).

Sin é wrote:It was a really messy situation for the players. Presumably Anscombe picked the team, but Humphreys did the hiring and firing of both players and coaches. Who exactly was in charge?

Think you just answered your own question there. Humphreys was in charge of hiring and firing and Anscombe was in charge of selection and tactics. I do think their reluctance to trust Anscombe with Humphreys responsibilities after Humph left is one of the major reasons this happened.

It undermines the coach though and leads to maybe a lack of respect from the players.

Alan Quinlan said that D Humphreys told him that he had a look at Penney (and others) for the job of head coach, but though he was a bit 'too strong' for Ulster. This would imply to me that Anscombe was weak.

I that you paraphrasing Humph or a direct quote there sin?

Seriously though, this is not a healthy situation at Ulster, there same thing happened McLaughlin - senior players going behind his back to Humph and the Ulster management.

We are going to struggle to attract top coaches if certain players with influence over the management can get the coach sacked every time they aren't picked are don't like the tactics.

rodders wrote:I that you paraphrasing Humph or a direct quote there sin?

Its what Alan Quinlan said Humphs said to him (on RTE before a Munster v Ulster game).

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

Sin é wrote:Maybe the IRFU decided enough was enough and decided they wanted their man in there. Maybe they are peed off that Humphreys took off to Gloucester after all the backing they have given him with extra 1m cash etc.

Sears (former CEO of Connacht) didn't have a rugby background like Logan - maybe they are afraid that Logan might have similar problems without a rugby head involved.

If the irfu we're putting 'their man' in anywhere at the minute it would be Munster Sin. Given they have had to renegotiate their debt and apply for a cash injection from the IRFU this year. Ulster were (rightly) underfunded for years under the previous boss but Logan has done very well from a business perspective.

I don't know about how Kiss is regarded from a coaching perspective in the irfu but I suspect this is purely about helping Ulster out in the short term with potential long term implications

Stand, Ulster have been having regular implosions over the last number of year. Christ, you would think Munster were throwing money at foreign signings! They have just redeveloped a 26K stadium (at a cost of 48m) and still owe the IRFU 10m on it. They are getting a purpose built training centre and redeveloping their 2nd ground (does any other club in the world have 2 grounds - most don't even have a pot to pee in).

Ulster were a shambles before humph and Logan. That's the point. They have been stable with no 'regular implosions' as you put it since those men have been in charge. Obviously now with one unexpected
Y leaving there is an amount of upheaval. The irfu gives out when and where it is needed. I don't begrudge Munster any extra spending (or indeed the restructuring of the debt) but mentioning the irfu being annoyed as a result of the 'extra help' doesn't really ring true then

Ulster looks to me to be back where they started before Humphreys and Logan came in. I think the demotion of Brian McLaughlin was very poorly handled, the sacking of Matt Williams was shocking and I think any decent coach would now give Ulster a wide birth. Maybe McCall is the only one who might be interested in the job, but I think Ulster probably need a Michael Cheika type coach who would take no Poopie from anyone (including the blazers).

Standulstermen wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

Sin é wrote:Maybe the IRFU decided enough was enough and decided they wanted their man in there. Maybe they are peed off that Humphreys took off to Gloucester after all the backing they have given him with extra 1m cash etc.

Sears (former CEO of Connacht) didn't have a rugby background like Logan - maybe they are afraid that Logan might have similar problems without a rugby head involved.

If the irfu we're putting 'their man' in anywhere at the minute it would be Munster Sin. Given they have had to renegotiate their debt and apply for a cash injection from the IRFU this year. Ulster were (rightly) underfunded for years under the previous boss but Logan has done very well from a business perspective.

I don't know about how Kiss is regarded from a coaching perspective in the irfu but I suspect this is purely about helping Ulster out in the short term with potential long term implications

Stand, Ulster have been having regular implosions over the last number of year. Christ, you would think Munster were throwing money at foreign signings! They have just redeveloped a 26K stadium (at a cost of 48m) and still owe the IRFU 10m on it. They are getting a purpose built training centre and redeveloping their 2nd ground (does any other club in the world have 2 grounds - most don't even have a pot to pee in).

Ulster were a shambles before humph and Logan. That's the point. They have been stable with no 'regular implosions' as you put it since those men have been in charge. Obviously now with one unexpected
Y leaving there is an amount of upheaval. The irfu gives out when and where it is needed. I don't begrudge Munster any extra spending (or indeed the restructuring of the debt) but mentioning the irfu being annoyed as a result of the 'extra help' doesn't really ring true then

Munster's repayment of the IRFU loan was far too ambitious and was agreed at the height of the celtic tiger.

The IRFU would be annoyed (and rightly so) if all the extra cash given resulted in Ulster (or Munster) still being in the same situation.

Sin é wrote:Ulster looks to me to be back where they started before Humphreys and Logan came in. I think the demotion of Brian McLaughlin was very poorly handled, the sacking of Matt Williams was shocking and I think any decent coach would now give Ulster a wide birth. Maybe McCall is the only one who might be interested in the job, but I think Ulster probably need a Michael Cheika type coach who would take no Poopie from anyone (including the blazers).

I'm glad it's only you that seems to see things that way Sin, Ulster are a much different beast these days and are fit to absorb a lot more upheaval than they would have in the pre-Humps days when a mild flu would have wiped out the season

Sin é wrote:Ulster looks to me to be back where they started before Humphreys and Logan came in. I think the demotion of Brian McLaughlin was very poorly handled, the sacking of Matt Williams was shocking and I think any decent coach would now give Ulster a wide birth. Maybe McCall is the only one who might be interested in the job, but I think Ulster probably need a Michael Cheika type coach who would take no Poopie from anyone (including the blazers).

Is there any evidence to suggest Ulster sacked Matt Williams?    

Whilst the demotion of McLaughlin was poorly handled you could hardly say the club was in a shambles given they went on the longest winning streak in the league from the start of the next season, made the pro12 final, won their HEC group and all the while built an 18000 seater with record attendances.

It's a different matter now obviously but contrary to Rodders belief it seems they have thought about the implications of the coaching structure and are re-evaluating it whilst not panicking and giving someone a long term contract.

All the while with record numbers of season ticket up takes and a brand new stadium with new money.

Standulstermen wrote:

Sin é wrote:Ulster looks to me to be back where they started before Humphreys and Logan came in. I think the demotion of Brian McLaughlin was very poorly handled, the sacking of Matt Williams was shocking and I think any decent coach would now give Ulster a wide birth. Maybe McCall is the only one who might be interested in the job, but I think Ulster probably need a Michael Cheika type coach who would take no Poopie from anyone (including the blazers).

Is there any evidence to suggest Ulster sacked Matt Williams?    

Whilst the demotion of McLaughlin was poorly handled you could hardly say the club was in a shambles given they went on the longest winning streak in the league from the start of the next season, made the pro12 final, won their HEC group and all the while built an 18000 sweater with record attendances.

It's a different matter now obviously but contrary to Rodders belief it seems they have thought about the implications of the coaching structure and are re-evaluating it whilst not panicking and giving someone a long term contract.

All the while with record numbers of season ticket up takes and a brand new stadium with new money.

Evidence - Matt Williams is not with Ulster now and didn't finish out his contract. I believe the story put out by Ulster was that he wanted to be back in Australia with his family (yet he appeared to be doing a heck of a lot of work for Setanta in the NH). My understanding is that Matt Williams was sacked by text which he received in Singapore!

Any coach who doesn't end up with another job more than likely was sacked (and if not sacked, not wanted). For example, Tony McGahan left Munster to work as Robbie Deans assistant back in Aus.

On the contrary Stand I think a lot of planning went in to McLaughlin's sacking. Humph always planned to replace him, and even when the club did better than expected, Humph stuck to his guns and refused to extend McLaughin's contract.

On this occasion there was a clear decision to keep Anscombe in place for one more season, until Ulster were in a position to put in place a longer term coaching set up.... this is where the cracks come in, I believe Humphreys wanted the main role of director of rugby but Logan had other ideas - this is just speculation but have seen it muted in a few places.

Realizing Logan has a different vision to him, Humphreys jumps ship to Gloucester whilst his stock is still high, leaving Logan with no option but to go cap in hand to the IRFU to put something in place before pre-season starts.

The fact that Ulster have Kiss until November, rather than September, suggests they have no other options in place and that this was all sprung on them unexpectedly and that Kiss appointment was reactionary rather than pre planned. Another fact that supports this is that Kiss requested squad information on each player, something he'd have access to anyway, in order to plan preseason. If he'd been in a longer term discussions about this role he wouldn't be requesting this information whilst on holiday in Australia.

Sin

So you have no evidence to say matt Williams was sacked nevermind 'shockingly sacked'.

Rodders

I don't dispute the planning behind McLaughlin. It was still poorly handled though especially that horrible press conference. Also I'm not saying we entered the off season planning to have Les Kiss in the DoR role. Far from it. Humph leaving has come as a shock and this was admitted by everyone. That doesn't mean what has happened since is poorly thought out though. Of course everything is a reaction to humph not being here but that's no to say it's ill advised.

Notch wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Sure, maybe he will only last a few weeks, as we swoop in to sign up Scott Johnston  

Come back Mark! All is forgiven   

heh heh. Sure Johnston might take us to the next level. Level of what I don't know though  

Standulstermen wrote:Sin

So you have no evidence to say matt Williams was sacked nevermind 'shockingly sacked'.

So what do you believe happened with Matt Williams?

Standulstermen wrote:Sin

So you have no evidence to say matt Williams was sacked nevermind 'shockingly sacked'.

Rodders

I don't dispute the planning behind McLaughlin. It was still poorly handled though especially that horrible press conference. Also I'm not saying we entered the off season planning to have Les Kiss in the DoR role. Far from it. Humph leaving has come as a shock and this was admitted by everyone. That doesn't mean what has happened since is poorly thought out though. Of course everything is a reaction to humph not being here but that's no to say it's ill advised.

Yeah maybe stand, look it is what it is - for me we'd have went another season on Humph and Anscombe to provide continuity with so many key senior players leaving. Sometimes you have to roll with the punches.

I hope Kiss does the business - he did a great job as defence coach for a while but do feel his stock is on the wane. Maybe this is the right role to find himself in.....if nothing else it will help Ulster get more players into the Irish RWC squad ....

rodders wrote:The fact that Ulster have Kiss until November, rather than September, suggests they have no other options in place and that this was all sprung on them unexpectedly and that Kiss appointment was reactionary rather than pre planned. Another fact that supports this is that Kiss requested squad information on each player, something he'd have access to anyway, in order to plan preseason. If he'd been in a longer term discussions about this role he wouldn't be requesting this information whilst on holiday in Australia.

Ulster have Kiss all season. Kiss would hardly request squad information before he was offered the job? Obviously this has all come in the wake of Humphreys leaving so it is reactionary. We didn't know he was going to leave, and give us no notice too boot. He left us in the lurch, there's no doubt, but that doesn't mean the steps taken to deal with this are bad. Indeed I think Ulster deserve a great deal of credit for the way they've reacted. Having a new coaching structure in place the first day of pre-season is very good.

Notch wrote:
Ulster have Kiss all season. Kiss would hardly request squad information before he was offered the job?

That's not what I meant. He could have accessed the information at any point - the fact that he had to request post appointment suggests things happened very quickly, rather than there being prior discussion about him taking on the role for next season.

Oh no, there wouldn't have been any prior discussion about it due to the fact we had planned that Humphreys would be here next year. And if Humphreys was here, then Anscombe probably would be too for better or worse regardless of what this or that player might think. All of the discussion would have come post-Humphreys departure and Kiss has pretty much been on holiday in Australia for that whole time, part from the few days he was with the Ireland squad in Argentina before they broke up.

It is reactionary, I agree with you there, but it has to be after Humphreys dropped his bombshell. We either react to that badly or well. But I don't think thats Ulster Rugbys fault. It was certainly Humphreys decision to leave and the manner that he left that has set off this chain of events. But you know, he's made that decision and it has to be dealt with.

I suppose the argument is whether they've reacted to Humphreys departure well or not. And really we'll only know when we're looking back at this point with 20/20 hindsight.

No I agree with all that but I suppose the other question to ask is whether there was something wrong with the set up that led, directly or otherwise to Humphreys departure.

Has Humph caused this mess, or was his leaving a symptom of it.

In terms of how Ulster reacted to the situation, well time will tell if Kiss does a better job than Anscombe. The reaction of the players says a lot but lets not forget the most popular coaches don't necessary do the best job - everyone loves Deccie for instance.... anyways good luck to Kiss, I hope it works out for both parties because we need some stability now..

rodders wrote:No I agree with all that but I suppose the other question to ask is whether there was something wrong with the set up that led, directly or otherwise to Humphreys departure.

Has Humph caused this mess, or was his leaving a symptom of it..

I wish I knew... I still think it was an opportunistic move from Humphreys. But who knows? Maybe he was aware that Anscombe was unpopular and destined for the exit, and wanted to avoid the blowback on him. Maybe he just thinks his stock was high enough now for him to secure that move but it might fall if Ulster fail to adapt to losing to the key players we've lost. But I really don't know, I'm just in the realms of speculation here and there's not much more we can say.

rodders wrote:anyways good luck to Kiss, I hope it works out for both parties because we need some stability now..

Agreed without a doubt! I like that we aren't rushing the process and I think we're very lucky to have Kiss as interim head coach as opposed to an internal promotion. We'll see whether he's capable of being a long-term solution or not. Generally when any new coach comes in performances go up for a brief period initially as everyone suddenly is fighting for a place in the team and working hard to impress the new coach. That, plus the extra motivation of our Head Coach having a voice in Ireland selection, should serve to see the whole squad wanting to it the ground running.

rodders wrote:Has Humph caused this mess, or was his leaving a symptom of it.

Yes and yes. His sudden departure has obviously precipitated Anscombe's departure, but his departure is a symptom of his own earlier "mess".

As Director of Rugby he is responsible for all things rugby and aside from a few Pyrrhic victories such as wins in France and pool topping, he hasn't won anything tangible. He didn't do it with McLaughlin and he didn't do it with Anscombe so the pressure was undoubtedly mounting. He dithered over extending Anscombe's contract which obviously unsettled their relationship, and probably made him question his own position.

Kiss isn't replacing Anscombe but rather Humphreys AND Anscombe - one figurehead responsible for the rugby product. That's a model that other clubs use successfully so why not Ulster - mess what mess?

Sin é wrote:Someone has an over active imagination Rodders. I can imagine David Nucifora telling his friend Joe Schmidt is that he has decided that Mark McCall (whom he has probably never even met and knows little about) is to be brought back to put him out of a job    

Not to put him out of a job....to be there in situ when Schmidt finally decides to leave...as he inevitably will do. He's a three year guy mostly during his coaching career so far. Two to go at most.

I'd still doubt that the IRFU would recruit McCall for the Ireland job 3 years out.

Most they might say is that if he thinks he might want the Ireland job, he better come back. I think maybe some people are putting 2+2 together and getting 5. It would be an admirable aspiration for the IRFU to want to have an indigineous coaching staff in all the provinces within the next 5 or six years. Munster are already there and Leinster seem to be heading that way with Girvan & Fogs running their academy and Leo the Forwards coach.

But back to Kiss.  So it is assumed that the Ulster players like Kiss and his ways.  But that hypothesis only comes from Ireland camp and Ulster International players.  

What will things be like if Kiss stumbles in the Ulster job?  What will the mood be like if his methods see Ulster slide down in performance levels rather than consolidate and rise above current levels?  What will the Ulster players think of him then?  

Well, we probably know what many of them would think of him as regards his Ulster job (see Anscombe) - but what would they think of him in terms of his second hat job at Ireland?  
In the Ireland set-up, Kiss might be still part of a successful unit; but what strains would be added to Ireland camp by having a group of Ireland players turn up with not too much of an opinion on a central coaching figure within the Ireland camp?  Now there's potential friction of an impact level above anything that might have been buzzing between Anscombe and Ulster senior players.

And obversely! - if Kiss is successful with Ulster - pushes them higher, increased their performances levels - that in itself might begin to see broadsides thrown his and the IRFU's way by other fans and other coaches.   Ulster might be seen to enjoy favourable status by having their head coach have longer with his focal players through a season than the other Provincial heads get with theirs.  
This is dog eat dog world in Provincial terms as it applies to trophy getting in either Pro12 or Europe.  Qualification is now tougher for Europe - every little edge might count - or might be seen to count.  If Ulster punches hard and Kiss has a leg in two camps, then other Provincial coaches and fans will begin to growl... another 'as sure is day is day' inevitability  

And finally - there's also an issue that other Provincials might begin to complain that Ulster's head coach is in a preferential 'Ireland player selection'  position that potentially sees biased conditions applied to his players over players at other Provinces.  ("I won't be a yes man, we'll make decisions together" - to paraphrase Kiss himself when talking about Schmidt last year)
If Kiss is there long enough at Ulster, and if he remains also in Ireland camp, then that accusation will raise its head.  It's as inevitable as the buzz about Zebo and fellow Munster players being overlooked by an ex-Leinster man  

So that's three areas to think about if Kiss lasts longer than a few months as Ulster Number 1 and if, in the meantime, he continues on as Number 2 at Ireland. 

I'd prefer to ideally see a direct cut between Kiss and Ireland.  I'd prefer Schmidt now finds a replacement for Kiss unless Ulster really is only a very temporary role.

The Great Aukster wrote:

rodders wrote:Has Humph caused this mess, or was his leaving a symptom of it.

Yes and yes. His sudden departure has obviously precipitated Anscombe's departure, but his departure is a symptom of his own earlier "mess".

As Director of Rugby he is responsible for all things rugby and aside from a few Pyrrhic victories such as wins in France and pool topping, he hasn't won anything tangible. He didn't do it with McLaughlin and he didn't do it with Anscombe so the pressure was undoubtedly mounting. He dithered over extending Anscombe's contract which obviously unsettled their relationship, and probably made him question his own position.

Kiss isn't replacing Anscombe but rather Humphreys AND Anscombe - one figurehead responsible for the rugby product. That's a model that other clubs use successfully so why not Ulster - mess what mess?

Hey Auk - any thoughts on Logan's role in all this? For instance Anscombe was unhappy about the state of the Ravenhill pitch, which Logan was dismissive off.

It seems to me, from a few reports I've read, that Logan's influence was encroaching more into rugby matters and this may have contributed to the strained relationship with Humph.... Logan has also come out with some statements lately that are pretty incredulous if you ask me but seems to be whiter than white in all this.

The timing of the selling of the Ravenhill naming rights seems too co-incidental to me as well. Whatever happened in the 3 weeks between Logan and Humph's meeting and Humph resigning - something obviously unsettled Humph enough to resign and I don't believe it was just money.

rodders wrote:
It seems to me, from a few reports I've read, that Logan's influence was encroaching more into rugby matters and this may have contributed to the strained relationship with Humph.... Logan has also come out with some statements lately that are pretty incredulous if you ask me but seems to be whiter than white in all this.

The timing of the selling of the Ravenhill naming rights seems too co-incidental to me as well. Whatever happened in the 3 weeks between Logan and Humph's meeting and Humph resigning - something obviously unsettled Humph enough to resign and I don't believe it was just money.

Keep going rodders. I'm nodding my agreement to every blasted thing you're saying in the last few days.

If Kiss was interested in the Ulster job, he had several opportunities to apply for it over the last couple of years.

I don't think it makes much difference when it comes to Ireland selections. Axel Foley did a couple of stints (forwards and defence) with Ireland and I can't recall much change from what went before.

Its pretty obvious to everyone I think that Joe Schmidt selects the Ireland team (for example, Zebo was selected as starting winger for Ireland when Kiss was coaching the backs).

Sin é wrote:If Kiss was interested in the Ulster job, he had several opportunities to apply for it over the last couple of years.

I don't think it makes much difference when it comes to Ireland selections. Axel Foley did a couple of stints (forwards and defence) with Ireland and I can't recall much change from what went before.

Axel neither had the experience, the long term influence nor Head Coach role that Kiss had with Ireland and will now have with Ulster.  Axel v Kiss in the influence department isn't the same subject.  It might be down the line depending on Axel's own performance - but right now and back then, Axel hadn't close to the influence that Kiss would have wielded.

Its pretty obvious to everyone I think that Joe Schmidt selects the Ireland team (for example, Zebo was selected as starting winger for Ireland when Kiss was coaching the backs).

It's obvious to you.  To others it might have been Kiss and not Joe keeping Zebo away from Ireland for so long after Simon's disinterested phone-in role two summers ago.

Sin é wrote:
I don't think it makes much difference when it comes to Ireland selections.

PS - it won't be what you're saying if it pans out that way and more Ulster players go where Munster guys might have played better to get there. There'll be two blame clowns for you then Sin. It'll be the Kissin'Joe show.

SecretFly wrote:[
It's obvious to you.  To others it might have been Kiss and not Joe keeping Zebo away from Ireland for so long after Simon's disinterested phone-in role two summers ago.

He wasn't the only one to phone in a performance and that hasn't stopped them from getting selected - at least Zeebs had some sort of an excuse.

Sin é wrote:I'd still doubt that the IRFU would recruit McCall for the Ireland job 3 years out.

Being groomed for the job as a long term successor doesn't mean he'll definitely get it. Munster did something very similar with Foley in terms of grooming him to be their next coach even with Penney in place.

Foley was already in situ before Penney. He wasn't brought back from another club where he was doing well.

Not one of Munster's new coaching staff have worked outside Munster in rugby.

Munster are doing well on the succession planning it must be said. John Kelly (former player) is being groomed to take over from Garrett as CEO - he is generally on interview panels and sits on the Professional Game Board. He is an accountant by training.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:[
It's obvious to you.  To others it might have been Kiss and not Joe keeping Zebo away from Ireland for so long after Simon's disinterested phone-in role two summers ago.

He wasn't the only one to phone in a performance and that hasn't stopped them from getting selected - at least Zeebs had some sort of an excuse.

Not so. Others struggled with ability. Zebo struggled with motivation to get involved. Have another look at the tour games he was in. And what kind of excuse is phoning in an Ireland contribution as you wait for a Lions call-up? That's an excuse?

But again, Notch is right - this is an Ulster thread. We'll leave it there.

Sin é wrote:Foley was already in situ before Penney. He wasn't brought back from another club where he was doing well.

Thats irrelevant. If the IRFU have McCall in mind as a potential long-term successor they'll want to keep him close to assess his suitability, just as Munster did with Foley. I don't know if McCall would be a good choice though. He still has a lot to prove. I'd be pleased if he was to return to Ulster but he would need to be successful for his province in the same way Schmidt was and Kidney was before he was considered.

Also, keep the debate on Ireland selections off this page and in the International section. This is about Ulster.

Don't we know it!

rodders wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

rodders wrote:Has Humph caused this mess, or was his leaving a symptom of it.

Yes and yes. His sudden departure has obviously precipitated Anscombe's departure, but his departure is a symptom of his own earlier "mess".

As Director of Rugby he is responsible for all things rugby and aside from a few Pyrrhic victories such as wins in France and pool topping, he hasn't won anything tangible. He didn't do it with McLaughlin and he didn't do it with Anscombe so the pressure was undoubtedly mounting. He dithered over extending Anscombe's contract which obviously unsettled their relationship, and probably made him question his own position.

Kiss isn't replacing Anscombe but rather Humphreys AND Anscombe - one figurehead responsible for the rugby product. That's a model that other clubs use successfully so why not Ulster - mess what mess?

Hey Auk - any thoughts on Logan's role in all this? For instance Anscombe was unhappy about the state of the Ravenhill pitch, which Logan was dismissive off.

It seems to me, from a few reports I've read, that Logan's influence was encroaching more into rugby matters and this may have contributed to the strained relationship with Humph.... Logan has also come out with some statements lately that are pretty incredulous if you ask me but seems to be whiter than white in all this.

The timing of the selling of the Ravenhill naming rights seems too co-incidental to me as well. Whatever happened in the 3 weeks between Logan and Humph's meeting and Humph resigning - something obviously unsettled Humph enough to resign and I don't believe it was just money.

Rodders - not sure how much Logan was dismissive of the pitch problems, but I do know he acknowledges there are issues. He has plans to put a 3/4 sized 4G training pitch in the Aquinas grounds and if that's successful put one in Ravenhill itself.

Logan has recognised that the most important missing ingredient at Ulster is success on the pitch, and has tried to facilitate whatever his DoR and Coach have asked for. The improvements in the commercial deals, training facilities, youth participation and ticket sales under his control have all meant that the focus and pressure is now very much on the team's success. The Logan / Humphreys relationship wasn't in anyway "strained", but that's not to say that Humph wasn't feeling the pressure of failure.

Aside from the dithering over the Anscombe contract extension, Humphreys was under the spotlight for a few questionable calls going back to the Sarries QF in 2013, the Afoa contract arrangement and dealing with Williams going AWOL. The naming rights to Ravenhill have been under negotiation since last year and have little to do with Humphreys other than to heap more pressure onto him as another piece of the jigsaw was slotted into place.

If its the IRFU who is deciding who the coach should be, Ulster are in serious trouble.

I think Ulster are going to find it difficult to attract a coach. The expectations are way too high and they won't be given a chance to try and succeed.

Any mention of international stuff was to do with Kiss's involvement in both. Some see it as a positive that Kiss will know the Ulster players. It can also be a negative because he might now like what he sees up close.

Aukster Logan has come out with some gumph lately that really makes me question his integrity on any of this. I think there is more to Humphreys and Anscombe's departure than meets the eye.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a few more players depart in the near future to be honest but hope I'm wrong and things settle down behind the scenes.

rodders wrote:Aukster Logan has come out with some gumph lately that really makes me question his integrity on any of this. I think there is more to Humphreys and Anscombe's departure than meets the eye.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a few more players depart in the near future to be honest but hope I'm wrong and things settle down behind the scenes.

I haven't seen or heard anything to make me question Logan's integrity. What is this "gumph" you speak of - have you a link?

Sin é wrote:I think Ulster are going to find it difficult to attract a coach. The expectations are way too high and they won't be given a chance to try and succeed.

Shoot for the moon and even if you miss you'll be among the stars instead. Why shouldn't Ulster aim high?

First and foremost Ulster aren't looking for a Coach but a Director of Rugby, who will manage everything to do with rugby, (including expectations). He will manage the coaches and may want to appoint his own. The Coach(es) will be given as much chance to succeed by the DoR as anywhere else, so to think that it will be hard to attract interest is nonsense.

Franco van der Merwe started his first game in a long while against the Melbourne Rebels but had to come off early... hope he's not been rushed back or injured.

Apparently it's just a knock on the shoulder, not serious.

I was just going to ask,

"How early?"

Surely returning players would rarely play 80 mins?

Also, all this stuff about Humph and Anscombe etc?

Has anyone any idea of the time frames involved?

To say that Humph jumped because he regretted extending Anscombe's contract makes it sound like he had a string of offers just waiting for him to decide when he needed an escape route.

Surely the offer from Glos was started some time ago, no? He did not time this to coincide with anything, he just took a very good offer when it presented itself?

Far to many folks with tin-foil hats around here.

Yeah but normally they'd last until halftime, he was subbed a few minutes before.

Thus the question.

What was his previous injury?

The Great Aukster wrote:

rodders wrote:Aukster Logan has come out with some gumph lately that really makes me question his integrity on any of this. I think there is more to Humphreys and Anscombe's departure than meets the eye.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a few more players depart in the near future to be honest but hope I'm wrong and things settle down behind the scenes.

I haven't seen or heard anything to make me question Logan's integrity. What is this "gumph" you speak of - have you a link?

A combination of contradictory comments in the media and reports I heard from the meeting content. Some examples:

Claiming Leinster and Munster weren't able to sell naming rights to the RDS and Thomond, despite the fact Leinster don't own the RDS and aren't in a position to sell the rights.

Comments that the backroom staff weren't able to use the video analysis equipment properly - I know for a fact this isn't true.

Saying Ulster decided not to convince Humphreys to stay, then contradicting this later by saying he asked him to him to take some time to reconsider which Humph refused as Gloucester were going to go public.

The contradictory statements from Afoa and Ulster about whether Ulster offered him a contract.

He has also made some odd comments about Herbst, Doyle and Afoa too which doesn't seem befitting of someone not involved in the rugby aspects of the club.

I'm not saying that he is to blame, but I don't buy a lot of what Logan says publically, which makes me not entirely convinced that the full story is known about why Humph left and subsequently Anscombe.

rodders wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

rodders wrote:Aukster Logan has come out with some gumph lately that really makes me question his integrity on any of this. I think there is more to Humphreys and Anscombe's departure than meets the eye.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a few more players depart in the near future to be honest but hope I'm wrong and things settle down behind the scenes.

I haven't seen or heard anything to make me question Logan's integrity. What is this "gumph" you speak of - have you a link?

A combination of contradictory comments in the media and reports I heard from the meeting content. Some examples:

Claiming Leinster and Munster weren't able to sell naming rights to the RDS and Thomond, despite the fact Leinster don't own the RDS and aren't in a position to sell the rights.

Comments that the backroom staff weren't able to use the video analysis equipment properly - I know for a fact this isn't true.

Saying Ulster decided not to convince Humphreys to stay, then contradicting this later by saying he asked him to him to take some time to reconsider which Humph refused as Gloucester were going to go public.

The contradictory statements from Afoa and Ulster about whether Ulster offered him a contract.

He has also made some odd comments about Herbst, Doyle and Afoa too which doesn't seem befitting of someone not involved in the rugby aspects of the club.  

I'm not saying that he is to blame, but I don't buy a lot of what Logan says publically, which makes me not entirely convinced that the full story is known about why Humph left and subsequently Anscombe.  

Is this contradictory?

Humph told him.

Logan asked for time.

Humph tells him the deal is done.

Logan doesn't try to convince him to stay as there is no point.


  

Where is the comtradiction?

MrsP wrote:Thus the question.

What was his previous injury?

Ankle.