AP Final Northampton Saints v Saracens

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd start a thread for the final.

I hope it'll be a close game and as a neutral attending, a lot more interesting then the HC final.

Saracens: Goode; Ashton, Bosch, Barritt, Strettle; Farrell, De Kock; Barrington, Brits, Stevens; Borthwick (capt), Botha; Brown, Burger, B. Vunipola.

Replacements: George, Gill, Johnston, Haregreaves, Wray, Wigglesworth, Hodgson, Wyles.

Northampton Saints: Foden; K. Pisi, G. Pisi, Burrell, North; Myler, Fotuali'i; Corbisiero, Haywood, Ma'afu; Manoa, Lawes; Clark, Wood (capt), Dickinson.

Replacements: Hartley, Waller, Mercey, Day, Dowson, Dickson, Wilson, Stephenson.

Heart say's Saints to get their first ever AP title and the cup to get a new name on it, head say's Saracens will do enough to get a win after the let down on Saturday.

HongKongCherry wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:
It was a fantastic game and whilst I fully understand why Sarries will feel aggrieved, they should also be very proud of a fantastic season. On the day they were just pipped, but they are still an excellent side.
 

 
Define fantastic?
 
They've done a Glaws, finished miles clear and blown it in the play-offs. Reached two finals, been thrashed in one and outplayed in the other.
 
Exeter got more silverware than Saracens this year...

You really are in antagonistic mode today aren't you?! Thrashed in one final and outplayed in another... They were certainly outplayed by Toulon, but it was far from a thrashing.  The outstanding game of the tournament was Sarries v Clermont and to lose to arguably the strongest club side ever assembled is no disgrace.  

They lost to Saints with the very last play of extra time, I'm not sure how that can ever be described as being outplayed.

They may not have ended up with any silverware, but the reality is that the bulk of teams won't and that doesn't mean they all failed.  Sarries have dominated the league and have got to the final of the pinnacle of club rugby.  Losing both finals will be a major disappointment to them, but it doesn't define their season.  They should be proud of a fantastic season, but I'm pretty sure you already knew that...

 
What strikes me as amusing - particularly in view of how the London-based national press has gone into raptures about the "Wolf Pack", etc etc - is how the "Something Special" is not quite as "Special" as everyone at Sarries would wish.
 
The "Something Special" started just before 2010, and has continued ever since. During this time what have Sarries won? One Premiership (in 2011).
 
I know that they have finished top of the table ahead of the Play-offs and that they have been narrowly beaten in both Premiership and Heineken Cup finals during this time. But if Tigers had the same record over this time then the less gracious would be calling them "chokers" and similar.
 
Having a glance at the domestic trophies (Premiership and Anglo Welsh Cup) winners since 2006/2007 - a good year to begin I am sure everyone will agree  - we see that over the eight seasons Tigers have won six trophies (4 Prem + 2 AW); Saints have won two (1 Prem + 1 AW); Quins have won two (1 Prem + 1 AW); the other six trophies have been shared out one a piece - Glaws (AW); Exeter (AW); Wasps (Prem) and SARRIES (Prem). [The other two AWs went to the Ospreys and Cardiff].
 
So - not quite as special as the media and Sarries themselves would have us believe.
 
Having said this I believe that having several clubs competing for the main trophies is healthy for the sport, and likely to help it develop and attract fans. In this regard, a little (microscopic) bit of me welcomes the efforts that Sarries have put in to raise their profile and that of rugby. I suppose its the media hype that they invite and nurture gets up my nose.
 
What will be really interesting is the impact that losing two finals in two weeks will have on the psychology of the Sarries players. Given their home Play-off defeats in recent years following their finishing top of the table, I anticipate that players' minds will be moving to one of "we always manage to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory". Of course, this will be denied, but I just wonder ............
 
Again, well done to Saints. It's good to see the trophy going to a proper rugby club and of course, the trophy staying in the powerhouse of the game - the East Midlands. If you want to borrow some silver polish for your trophy Jim, just pop down to Welford Rd, i'm sure they'll lend you some.
 
Finally, I must admit to a bit of Schadenfreude for poor little Chris Ashton. He leaves Saints to Sarries to be sure of winning trophies. Since then Saints have won the Premiership and the Amlin, and Sarries have won..... Good call Chris - it couldn't happen to anyone nicer

Nice attitude Jimpy.

Jimpy you missed out some Challenge Cup wins for premiership teams in those 8 seasons. Northampton won that this year.

To be honest I would not get excited about winning the AW with so many understrength sides

Amlin is far more worthy of note.
Also making a HC final is sort of achievement and certaintly way way above winning the AW.

Basically what you are saying is Leicester have been top dog and Saracens are one of the best of the rest.

Jimpy you do seem to enjoy gloating.

You would think with your attitude that it was the Tigers who had won! Not your nearest rivals. Suppose you've got to hang onto someone's coat tails.    

It's a win for the East Midlands no?  How the mighty Tigers have fallen.

Saints deserve to celebrate - to be fair to them on the day they were the more clinical side and despite having less territory and possession they made more of having the ball and looked more threatening. Plus they've been one of the top sides in the AP this season - it's not like they struggled to make the playoffs. Also after quite a few near misses this is their time in the sun.

As for Farrell - yes it was foolish. I agree he's not the brightest lad around.

It's a shame it's become about winning trophies rather than winning games. Winning to tournament over all should be the icing on the cake not the whole thing (IMO). Everyone can't win and the idea there are 11 failed seasons each year is quite sad. But then I'm a 'try your best and see what happens' kind of guy.

Personally, I'm glad Saints won simply because they haven't before and it means there have been 4 different winners in the last four years. Given the same 4 teams 'tend' to be in the playoffs these days it adds some needed variety. I'd be more than happy for Saracens to win it next year and I expect them to be contenders (although I'd prefer another team, as in not Saints, Leicester, Quins or Sarries).

Hammerofthunor it's just I feel sorry for Nigel Wray who has put so much effort into the club - he will see the lack of trophies as failure. Of course most won't feel sympathy for the man - fair enough I guess. He's got so much passion for the club, not just a money man.

As for the club itself unfortunately Saracens has put so much emphasis on the players that if they don't perform on the pitch it puts them in a tough position.

From personal experience I certainly feel Saracens should treat their fans much better.

In a way Saracens put all their eggs in one basket - win a trophy or two and the Saracens management could use that win to justify the emphasis on the team instead of the fans.

One of the strangest days rugby I have been involved with. The Pub was packed with Tigers fans all cheering on Northampton... all seemed a bit surreal and maybe a little unfair on Sarries.

Most of my mates justified their supporting Saints as follows: Saints are local to us and East Midland boys. Sarries have won the title, Saints never have and Sarries have dominated the league so much over the last couple of years that they are the team everyone wants to beat.

Anyway, congratulations to both teams for making it a hell of a game. The last match I watched that went to the 99th minute was... well you know which game... but shhhhh! you can't mention it on here.

I think Sarries reputation, these days at least is unwarranted. yes a few years ago they paid big money to bring in SA has-beens and the like and theydominated the 1st XV, but these days they are nurturing and bringing on a host of good EQ players, even if they import them from Quins and Saints

Harrington, is a good prospect as is George in the front row, Kruis in the 2nd row and Fraser and Wray in the back row, plus established but young players in the Vunipola bros.

Wiggy is a good English 9, O Farrrell a Sarries product, Strettle, Ashton and Goode all international (or close) level backs with the possibility of Tomkins when he adapts better to Union.

I think they can get a bit carried away by there own publicity, but it can no longer be said that they are bad for the AP or English rugby in general.

Most of the remaining SA (and Namibians) are getting to the end of their careers, the replacements coming through are generally English which at the level Sarries paly at can only be good for English rugby.

I will back Saints against them every time, but I don't understand the enmity people have for them, not now anyway.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I think Sarries reputation, these days at least is unwarranted. yes a few years ago they paid big money to bring in SA has-beens and the like and theydominated the 1st XV, but these days they are nurturing and bringing on a host of good EQ players, even if they import them from Quins and Saints

Harrington, is a good prospect as is George in the front row, Kruis in the 2nd row and Fraser and Wray in the back row, plus established but young players in the Vunipola bros.

Wiggy is a good English 9, O Farrrell a Sarries product, Strettle, Ashton and Goode all international (or close) level backs with the possibility of Tomkins when he adapts better to Union.

I think they can get a bit carried away by there own publicity, but it can no longer be said that they are bad for the AP or English rugby in general.

Most of the remaining SA (and Namibians) are getting to the end of their careers, the replacements coming through are generally English which at the level Sarries paly at can only be good for English rugby.

I will back Saints against them every time, but I don't understand the enmity people have for them, not now anyway.

Totally agree, just about echo's my sentiments on Saracens.

Commiserations beshocked, can totally understand your frustrations and I'm sure that I would feel the same way if the rolls were reversed. Still I think Saracens should be proud of their season and I can see them challenging in both major competitions again next season.

One observation, do you think maybe the tactics were a little conservative in the finals compared to the rugby you were playing towards the end of the season? This year your attacking play signifacnlty improved and when I think of games like Clemont and even against Saints at the Alliez you were just about impossible to live with but seemed to go into your shell a little in the finals. I know how the opposition goes about their business can have a big impact on a teams performance (ie Toulon) but I just wonder if you had backed yourselves a bit more with ball in hand it could have made a difference. This isn't a dig at Saracens coaching staff who I happen to think are just about the best in the AP, just a thought I had.

beshocked wrote:Jimpy you do seem to enjoy gloating.

You would think with your attitude that it was the Tigers who had won! Not your nearest rivals. Suppose you've got to hang onto someone's coat tails.    

It's a win for the East Midlands no?  How the mighty Tigers have fallen.
Saints deserve to celebrate - to be fair to them on the day they were the more clinical side and despite having less territory and possession they made more of having the ball and looked more threatening. Plus they've been one of the top sides in the AP this season - it's not like they struggled to make the playoffs. Also after quite a few near misses this is their time in the sun.

As for Farrell - yes it was foolish. I agree he's not the brightest lad around.

 
Our nearest rivals, but still Midlanders, and East Midlanders at that. And a proper club too. When the occasion warrants, we stick together against a common foe. I'm very pleased for Saints, as were a great deal of Tigers fans. And, Tigers have fallen have they? PMSL, you just keep believing that. Saying they've fallen implies they had a distance to drop.... which is true. Tigers are rightly the yardstick by which most teams would measure success against. So, coatails? er, no, I don't think so (you just keep those hackneyed cliches coming, its very amusing). They may have underachieved this year (most teams woulds have been crippled by the injury list Tigers had for a start) but its but a blip, not a serious malaise, as it appears may be the case at other 'clubs'.

B91212 not sure the tactics were necessarily that conservative through each of the matches but Saracens certainly did struggle to break down both Toulon and Saints defensively.

I would say that Saracens were certainly overly conservative when they were an extra man up vs Toulon but it was more the inability to break them down defensively throughout both which was the main problem.

Saracens were also wasteful with opportunities/field position. Plus good defence by Saints and Toulon.

Perhaps Saracens have become too predictable in attack (perhaps their attacking moves have been worked out).

Jimpy you're not top of the AP anymore hence need to hanging onto coat tails. Still the team with highest attendance sure but not with the best team.

Underachieved? I don't think so - both Saracens and Saints have stronger squads plus stronger academies in my opinion.

Keep banging on about your injury list - like every year.  Remember only Leicester get injuries.

It's the excuse you can always count on the Tigers fans churning out every year without fail.

beshocked wrote:B91212 not sure the tactics were necessarily that conservative through each of the matches but Saracens certainly did struggle to break down both Toulon and Saints defensively.

I would say that Saracens were certainly overly conservative when they were an extra man up vs Toulon but it was more the inability to break them down defensively throughout both which was the main problem.

Saracens were also wasteful with opportunities/field position. Plus good defence by Saints and Toulon.

Perhaps Saracens have become too predictable in attack (perhaps their attacking moves have been worked out).

Jimpy you're not top of the AP anymore hence need to hanging onto coat tails. Still the team with highest attendance sure but not with the best team.

Underachieved? I don't think so - both Saracens and Saints have stronger squads plus stronger academies in my opinion.

Keep banging on about your injury list - like every year.  Remember only Leicester get injuries.

It's the excuse you can always count on the Tigers fans churning out every year without fail.

 
Like tactics, team selection and making the most of opportunities at Saracens 
 
Leicester's injury list was extensive and certainly had its part to play. Notice, I didn't cite it as the ONLY reason for a poor (by Leicester's standards) season. But of course, you only saw what you wanted to see.
 
Look, I know you're all upset at the moment, but don't worry, Saracens will win another title some day. Can't think when though.

I have gotten over the loss to be honest. Your ridiculous posts have cheered me up too - always good for a laugh.

Thank you jimpy.  

"Your ridiculous posts have cheered me up too"

Not as much as watching Saracens' epic fails this year made me laugh, I can assure you.

Thank you Nigel wray   

I go back to how anyone can think being the best team in the league is an epic fail?

Jimpy if Saracens' season is an epic fail then what category does the Tigers' season fall into?

  

beshocked wrote:Jimpy if Saracens' season is an epic fail then what category does the Tigers' season fall into?

  

 
Disappointing probably. An underachievement.
 
As they didn't contest a final this year, they didn't fail (in a final) by definition though. To fail in two finals, that's epic.
 
As for who was the best team this year, well, the best team in Europe was Toulon and what do you know, they backed it up with a T14 victory too. Saracens on the other hand, may have been the 'best' team in the league this season, but that's opinion - it means absolutely nothing if that isn't reinforced with a title. The domestic season is 24 matches long for the contenders, not 22. Nobody will care that Saracens' name isn't on the trophy, or what moral right they claim to it, only that Northampton's is.

It's not opinion that Saracens were the best team in the league; they finished top. I do like the your point of Leicester being less of a failure because they failed to get to the final! Top WUM.

Well this thread has descended into madness...

I think Sarries have shown how hard it is to compete on two fronts successfully unless you have a French teams riches. For what its worth, I think Sarries would have won if their European run had ended vs Ulster. As it was I think The Toulon effort took a lot out of the team.

It will be interesting to see how the Sarries coaching team approach next season, for me they have the been the best English team for a couple of years now but haven't had the silverwear to show for it.

Bathman_in_London wrote:Well this thread has descended into madness...

I think Sarries have shown how hard it is to compete on two fronts successfully unless you have a French teams riches. For what its worth, I think Sarries would have won if their European run had ended vs Ulster. As it was I think The Toulon effort took a lot out of the team.

It will be interesting to see how the Sarries coaching team approach next season, for me they have the been the best English team for a couple of years now but haven't had the silverwear to show for it.

We do like our glorious failures in this country don't we.... the underdog, the nearly rans...

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not opinion that Saracens were the best team in the league; they finished top. I do like the your point of Leicester being less of a failure because they failed to get to the final! Top WUM.

 
No, I said they didn't fail in a final, therefore they hadn't failed that achievement by definition. Which was the crux of Saracens failure.
 
Leicester will probably consider their season a failure of sorts because they didn't reach a final - something that they would do pretty much every year. But then they weren't the 'best' team in the league either, so probably didn't merit a place in the final anyway. Frankly, to be so dominant in a league as Saracens undoubtedly were, and then to come away with nothing verges on the incompetent.

Jimpy you are right Tigers didn't fail in finals because they weren't good enough to get there!

The reality is that Tigers are currently the 3rd best side in the AP with Quins and Bath looking like contenders to push them further down the pecking order. Then there's of course Gloucester who might make something of having a new coach and frontrow. Sale might carry on their dark horse reputation. The likes of Wasps,London Irish and Exeter? Who knows?

Tigers actually did get a bit of a wake up call because they lost their consecutive runs to the final with that loss to Saints. That's failure.

Saracens shouldn't be weaker next season - they've done some good recruitment and have some excellent youngsters coming through. Probably need to find some extra cutting edge in attack - exciting youngsters could hold the solution.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I think Sarries reputation, these days at least is unwarranted. yes a few years ago they paid big money to bring in SA has-beens and the like and theydominated the 1st XV, but these days they are nurturing and bringing on a host of good EQ players, even if they import them from Quins and Saints

Harrington, is a good prospect as is George in the front row, Kruis in the 2nd row and Fraser and Wray in the back row, plus established but young players in the Vunipola bros.

Wiggy is a good English 9, O Farrrell a Sarries product, Strettle, Ashton and Goode all international (or close) level backs with the possibility of Tomkins when he adapts better to Union.

I think they can get a bit carried away by there own publicity, but it can no longer be said that they are bad for the AP or English rugby in general.

Most of the remaining SA (and Namibians) are getting to the end of their careers, the replacements coming through are generally English which at the level Sarries paly at can only be good for English rugby.

I will back Saints against them every time, but I don't understand the enmity people have for them, not now anyway.

This is brilliant. You dont have to like a side to admire them, and Sarries have kept up a level of performance over league and european matches that is quite remarkable both for their high rate of scoring and great defense (except for, you know, the last two games...). And they have done this with a squad full of English qualified talent. If that isnt worth a little respect I dont know what is.

beshocked wrote:Jimpy you are right Tigers didn't fail in finals because they weren't good enough to get there!

The reality is that Tigers are currently the 3rd best side in the AP with Quins and Bath looking like contenders to push them further down the pecking order. Then there's of course Gloucester who might make something of having a new coach and frontrow. Sale might carry on their dark horse reputation. The likes of Wasps,London Irish and Exeter? Who knows?

Tigers actually did get a bit of a wake up call because they lost their consecutive runs to the final with that loss to Saints. That's failure.

Saracens shouldn't be weaker next season - they've done some good recruitment and have some excellent youngsters coming through. Probably need to find some extra cutting edge in attack - exciting youngsters could hold the solution.

I actually agree with most of what you've said there, but in the case of those highlighted, I think we probably do know...

No 7&1/2 wrote:I go back to how anyone can think being the best team in the league is an epic fail?

Hear! Hear!

Whilst I was concerned regarding our fixtures against Quins, Bath or Saints I still remained quietly confident that if we played to our potential we would get the result... Sarries on the otherhand I viewed with dread. They have been the most consistantly powerful team in the AP over the last couple of years and always challenge for honours.

A few years back Tigers dominated the league for years but kept being pipped at the post by the Pests. They were our bogey team for a long time.

Are Saints becoming Sarries bogey team? 2 years... 2 knockouts?

I think I got lost somewhere along the line in this thread, but cannot remember where. Has been very amusing, though.

I havent read any of this, I just wanted to state that that was one hell of a game of rugby!!

Commiserations to Sarries fans, sour way to lose a game (however correct/incorrect the decisions were - not my place to say).

Congrats to Saints fans!!!

Neutrals were the real winners!

Comfort wrote:Neutrals were the real winners!  

I dunno, it felt quite good as a Saints fan. Even got to lift the trophy (they took it out in Northampton after the game).

Scottrf wrote:

Comfort wrote:Neutrals were the real winners!  

I dunno, it felt quite good as a Saints fan. Even got to lift the trophy (they took it out in Northampton after the game).

Agree. As a Saints fan, this doesn't suck.

Scottrf wrote:

Comfort wrote:Neutrals were the real winners!  

I dunno, it felt quite good as a Saints fan. Even got to lift the trophy (they took it out in Northampton after the game).

I'm suprised they got the trophy back.

Northampton. Pike-iest. city. Ever.

Marvellous heritage with regards to the shoe making industry though.

Jimpy wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Comfort wrote:Neutrals were the real winners!  

I dunno, it felt quite good as a Saints fan. Even got to lift the trophy (they took it out in Northampton after the game).

I'm suprised they got the trophy back.

Northampton. Pike-iest. city. Ever.

Marvellous heritage with regards to the shoe making industry though.

We don't really care about trophys too much in Northampton. We could have so many, but don't because we are humanitarians: We know that gents from other towns feel a little...........inadequate, if you know what I mean......from time to time. Not a problem in Northampton when we are virtually tripping over things.................

doctor_grey wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Comfort wrote:Neutrals were the real winners!  

I dunno, it felt quite good as a Saints fan. Even got to lift the trophy (they took it out in Northampton after the game).

I'm suprised they got the trophy back.

Northampton. Pike-iest. city. Ever.

Marvellous heritage with regards to the shoe making industry though.

We don't really care about trophys too much in Northampton.  We could have so many, but don't because we are humanitarians:  We know that gents from other towns feel a little...........inadequate, if you know what I mean......from time to time.  Not a problem in Northampton when we are virtually tripping over things.................

I totally agree Doc, compassion for those less fortunate than ourselves. We have even gotten into the habit of giving lesser teams the thrill of thinking they are going to beat us, imagine the happiness that must bring, for 78 minutes or so anyway before we kindly and quietly administer the fatal dose of reality.

Mind you if you are tripping over things.................... like shoe laces, where better to be.   


Jimmy, I didn't know there was that much fishing in Northampton, certainly not for pike.