Englands Summer Tour of NZ - The rugby

by Welly Wed 28 May 2014, 2:55 pm

First topic message reminder :

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hows his lineout work going?

Master at it prob the best jumper in Leicester including Parling imo, commands it so well.

Well I think that anyway.

by sickofwendy Sun 01 Jun 2014, 9:31 pm

Tell that to the players,I bet they are looking forward to the tour,every players dream or should be

by kingelderfield Sun 01 Jun 2014, 9:54 pm

Listening to Talksport, Brian Moore interviewing Lancaster......Lancaster says 36 not trained yet and causing concern.....for me that translates 36 not playing which says two things to me;

who plays centre with Tuilagi?

and why announce this on Talksport for all of New Zealand to plan for? Seems quite a dumb thing to say really.

Sharples is the real deal, he's not Hosea Gear but as far as England wings go he's one of our better ones. I think Varndell is on the outer and Foden is a stop gap. Not a great state of affairs really and then tbh May is a basket case who I have real concerns about. If he comes out and does his impersonation of a petrified Bambi on ice again then I think project May should be shelved till November 2015 - such a shame, hugely talented and largely spoiled by every coach he's ever worked under.

by sickofwendy Sun 01 Jun 2014, 10:07 pm

Foden on form is more than a stop gap,just needs an injury free run like lawes did.
Maybe twelve trees is fine and Lancaster is playing mind games.
May's try scoring record is far superior to sharples who apparently played ok today

by Taylorman Mon 02 Jun 2014, 12:32 am

gosh...what a mess. Our boys are all together, primed, in form, and ready to go. All year I'd thought the first game up factor would help England but the closer we get the messier it sounds, and we're 5 days away. Hate to see the test count comparison for this one.

Anyway, we are spoilt. In the next 8 hours we have 6 live JWC matches, and its a public holiday here (Q Birthday). At least there's good planning of matches in some quarters.

by aucklandlaurie Mon 02 Jun 2014, 12:49 am

I'd just hate to see the All Blacks lose at Eden park.

by Taylorman Mon 02 Jun 2014, 1:00 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
I'd just hate to see the All Blacks lose at Eden park.

Bit of a waste really. Eden park alone gives the AB's 10-15, and its not this one they might need to fall back on it. If they lose- no matter what reason- suzie, Barnes, ebola or whatever it was could all be there this Saturday...still no excuse Whistle

This is the best AB side to take the field- sxv form wise anyway- for a while. If combinations click then this could be a bad day for some.

As expected, the temperatures have dropped like a brick here on the first day of June- just hope its not wet all week.

by kingelderfield Mon 02 Jun 2014, 9:24 am

kingelderfield wrote:Listening to Talksport, Brian Moore interviewing Lancaster......Lancaster says 36 not trained yet and causing concern.....for me that translates 36 not playing which says two things to me;

who plays centre with Tuilagi?

I'd play Eastmond with Tuilagi swapping IC/OC attack and defence. It's undeniably bold and will require a sophisicated understanding of defense from the entire team to work. Will Eastmond and Tuilagi and Cipriani be on the same page? Well obviously my hunch says a resounding YES!

and why announce this on Talksport for all of New Zealand to plan for? Seems quite a dumb thing to say really.

Sharples is the real deal, he's not Hosea Gear but as far as England wings go he's one of our better ones. I think Varndell is on the outer and Foden is a stop gap. Not a great state of affairs really and then tbh May is a basket case who I have real concerns about. If he comes out and does his impersonation of a petrified Bambi on ice again then I think project May should be shelved till November 2015 - such a shame, hugely talented and largely spoiled by every coach he's ever worked under.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 02 Jun 2014, 9:31 am

I assume you mean Sharples for the 2nd test? Unless May has a stormer this weekend I can only see Yarde and Ashton starting tbh with May to the bench.

by Geordie Mon 02 Jun 2014, 9:37 am

Surely Parling isnt in contention to start??!!

I would be seriously unhappy if he was selected over Slater or Attwood!

by kingelderfield Mon 02 Jun 2014, 9:48 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I assume you mean Sharples for the 2nd test? Unless May has a stormer this weekend I can only see Yarde and Ashton starting tbh with May to the bench.

No sorry my posting isn't clear.....I was initially responding to SickofWendy from yesterday 5.26pm above.......I've then answered my own question (as you do) regards a replacement for 36 which is the crucial factor.

Regards Sharples, I was just saying that he's a genuine winger with pace, does what it says on tin. I do hope May has a stormer but my fear is he'll only play himself out of contention, and I'd agree formwise Yarde and Ashton for T2 are our best offering. Neither is Smith or Savea (if fit) but on their day will give some cause for thought.

Basically apart from Wade who is broken we don't have the absolute top level talent. Yarde and Ashton are good and I do hope there is more development to come from Yarde, plus continued focus from Ashton.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 02 Jun 2014, 9:54 am

Ah. Yes you would think Eastmond is next off the rank if Twelvetrees doesn't make it. Think Yarde and Wade both have the potential but like a lot of our team it remains potential at present. Ashton, if he can take his club form to England again, could be extremely important to us. He's under a lot of pressure though.

by Geordie Mon 02 Jun 2014, 9:59 am

1st Test - Yarde and May on the wings.
2nd & Probably 3rd Test - Yarde and Ashton

However Yarde could have a shocker and May could be electric?

by kingelderfield Mon 02 Jun 2014, 10:10 am

I know its not good form, but hopefully we can buy a break and the AB's rest Savea, injury pending, for T1.

Otherwise amongst others, its going to be right old ding dong between Savea and Yarde - Yarde does have tendency to break.

by Geordie Mon 02 Jun 2014, 10:17 am

I rate may highly.

I think his style is very much going on mazy runs through traffic. Sometimes this is very effective, but as we saw in the 6n, very often its not.

He needs someone to really get hold of him and give him some direction. Focus on using his pace on the outside, and back himself. Learn from Ashton which lines to run etc.

Hopefully Mike Catt can do this, and training with the squad will improve this area of his game.

by kingelderfield Mon 02 Jun 2014, 10:19 am

The following eight gives us a real chance;

Marler
Webber
Wilson
Launchbury
Attwood
Robshaw
Haskell
Morgan

an exciting backline;

Care
Cipriani
Yarde
Eastmond
Tuilagi
May
Brown

but what does the bench offer, where is the impact?

by No 7&1/2 Mon 02 Jun 2014, 10:23 am

The bench is steady but no more. Parling does offer a lot off it though as we saw for the Lions. I think you could probably say Burns and Trinder should offer something different.

by kingelderfield Mon 02 Jun 2014, 10:32 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:I rate may highly.

I think his style is very much going on mazy runs through traffic. Sometimes this is very effective, but as we saw in the 6n, very often its not.

He needs someone to really get hold of him and give him some direction. Focus on using his pace on the outside, and back himself. Learn from Ashton which lines to run etc.

Hopefully Mike Catt can do this, and training with the squad will improve this area of his game.

If whoever can switch him 'ON' then great, seriously fantastic. I too am a real fan and so HATE to see such natrural talent wasted.

His game has been spoiled in an undisiplined Gloucester set up. It just reminds me of Balshaw going south against Australia on the 2001 Lions and he was never the same again and with his confidence shot he had nowhere left to run.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 02 Jun 2014, 10:42 am

No ones come out of Gloucesters season with any real credit, but May was fantastic last year. In the last few England games we've seen them cut loose a bit in the backs as well so cause for some optimism!

by kingelderfield Mon 02 Jun 2014, 10:47 am

England additions

Chris Ashton (Saracens) Brad Barritt (Saracens) Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints) Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints) Owen Farrell (Saracens) Ben Foden (Northampton Saints) Alex Goode (Saracens) Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints) Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints) Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints) Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins) Billy Vunipola (Saracens) Alex Waller (Northampton Saints) Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby) Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens) Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

by Geordie Mon 02 Jun 2014, 10:54 am

Pretty much as expected.

Great to see young Sinkler and Waller in there!

Two Props that have had amazing seasons.

by sickofwendy Mon 02 Jun 2014, 10:56 am

4 full backs or is foden now a winger for england

by sickofwendy Mon 02 Jun 2014, 10:57 am

Would have liked an extra back row in there

by Geordie Mon 02 Jun 2014, 11:01 am

Foden gives options as does Watson.

Wing and Fb's...and thats something Lancaster likes.

An extra back row would have been nice but that suggests he may be prepared to try Launchbury or Slater at 6 if it is really required.

by sickofwendy Mon 02 Jun 2014, 11:33 am

I like launchburys work rate at lock
Don't want to lose that

by BamBam Mon 02 Jun 2014, 12:39 pm

Can't think of a back rower that should have been picked that hasn't maybe Luke Wallace based on a decent performance yesterday

by Geordie Mon 02 Jun 2014, 2:45 pm

Well had he been fit i would hope that man Garvey would have toured!

by BamBam Mon 02 Jun 2014, 2:53 pm

Haha .. this would have been a good test to finally discover whether Garvey will ever get a shot under Lancaster

by markb Mon 02 Jun 2014, 4:12 pm

Even if we needed an additional BR on tour (the balance on numbers and competition is right), I don't see Garvey making it as an international blindside for us, I'd rather have his Bath teammate Fearns there (additionally helped by covering openside and 8 well, making him a great bench option).

I could see Garvey doing a good job at lock internationally, but I'd still have Lawes, Launchbury, Attwood, Kitchener & Slater ahead of him.

by Geordie Mon 02 Jun 2014, 4:18 pm

Garvey is a man who divides opinon. I think he's been outstanding when he's played this season. The only way we know if hes good enough is in the international arena.

In his brief glimpse for the Saxons he was putting in a MOM first half...he never turned out for the second half.

Fearns would be a good option also.

Haskell, Wood and Johnson will cover the 6 spot though. Then Slater and Launchbury if we start losing men to injuries....

by niwatts Mon 02 Jun 2014, 5:59 pm

The 606 folklore around Garvey and that 2012 Saxons game grows by the day. He did start the 2nd half, he was subbed about 10mins into it. Not particularly surprising given that the Saxons is largely about testing players and they wanted to see what a number of 2nd row options could offer. Garvey not being a lineout leader was always the one who was going to make way - he was playing well, but not this colussus performance that some have suggested. The following week the two other 2nd rows in the squad who hadn't featured, Slater and Kitchener, were duly given their chance.

by formerly known as Sam Mon 02 Jun 2014, 6:36 pm

Slater and Robson stated the game vs Scotland with Myall on the bench. Myall replaced Garvey in the game vs Ireland after 46 minutes. Given that Myall I'd only of use at the line out I think he could have paired Garvey perfectly well.

Garvey was the best player for the Saxons in that first half . His non selection after that game is bizarre.

by robbo277 Mon 02 Jun 2014, 7:56 pm

I think 47 is a ridiculous number to take on a 4-match tour. I'd have taken 38 in an ideal world, two teams of 15 and an 8 man bench. Ridiculous scheduling has meant we have an extra 9 (?!) players out there. It's just too many bodies and some will have flown halfway across the world for 20 minutes of rugby (or less).

by HammerofThunor Mon 02 Jun 2014, 9:08 pm

Someone a while back was talking about looking at the amount of rugby these guys are getting once the squad was fully announced.

Well I've looked at them for the Premiership games (one website and it publishes minutes played).

Not really looked that hard at the moment because the other games need doing but...

Mean number of games is 13.8 + 2.6
Mean number of minutes is 1065.9
Mean minutes per game is 64.7
Mean Full Equivalent Games is 13.3
Mean age is 26.0 years

Obviously the means mean little ( haha) but the distribution of FEG is:

0-5 = 0
5-10 = 7
10-15 = 22
15-20 = 14
20-25 = 2
25+ = 0

Remember there are up to 9 international games, 9 European games and LV games to add (plus the 3 games this summer). So for example Brown is currently at 14.3 FEG but is probably more like 31 in total.

by sickofwendy Mon 02 Jun 2014, 9:35 pm

robbo277 wrote:I think 47 is a ridiculous number to take on a 4-match tour. I'd have taken 38 in an ideal world, two teams of 15 and an 8 man bench. Ridiculous scheduling has meant we have an extra 9 (?!) players out there. It's just too many bodies and some will have flown halfway across the world for 20 minutes of rugby (or less).

Lancaster has always said that he prefers a 38 man squad for his summer tours.The extra 9 are only there because of the schedule fiasco.
Besides it's still a good learning experience for fringe players this close to the world cup.
47 players plus coaches and support staff
I'm sure British airways aren't complaining ................kerching!!!!

by Poorfour Mon 02 Jun 2014, 9:52 pm

robbo277 wrote:I think 47 is a ridiculous number to take on a 4-match tour. I'd have taken 38 in an ideal world, two teams of 15 and an 8 man bench. Ridiculous scheduling has meant we have an extra 9 (?!) players out there. It's just too many bodies and some will have flown halfway across the world for 20 minutes of rugby (or less).

I think you are forgetting the Crusaders game. No-one who starts that game is going to play in the 3rd test, and even the bench players will be pushing it. That suggests an absolute minimum of 38 players, but a sensible squad is more like 45 (two starting xvs plus cover for each position). On that basis, the squad we have is about right.

by johnpartle Tue 03 Jun 2014, 1:06 am

Wading into the Garvey discussion, given that he was taken off relatively quickly in the second half of his saxons game suggests to me that the coaches monitoring him saw a significant drop in his workrate data after the HT break. His fitness levels back then weren't at his current standard. If fitness was seen as a limiting factor he would have been told to go and work on it and fallen down the pecking order until he had.

I feel that if Garvey wants to rise through the England ranks he needs to offer more as a carrier. He's got a good engine on him these days, gets through a lot of work for the full 80, but he lacks the extra speed and athleticism that his England competiton possess, the small margins of which makes all the difference in the step up to international level, particularly with the game plan England are adopting. A more destructive carrying game would offset that as it does for some of our other bulkier players.

I think he's closer to what Lancaster wants in the second row than the back, so I hope that Bath (similar to Wasps) stop hampering their best selection via their choice of club captain and give us a regular 4-8 of Attwood, Garvey, Fearns, Louw and Houston.

by Geordie Tue 03 Jun 2014, 8:22 am

4-8 of Attwood, Garvey, Fearns, Louw and Houston..

Ouch thats a big ole back 5!!!

by kingelderfield Tue 03 Jun 2014, 10:17 am

Bombing England's T1 chances, I think these would be the wrong selections;

Ward to start over Webber
Parling over Attwood/Slater
Johnson over Haskell/Slater
Burns to start over Cipriani

With Eastmond in the centres with Tuilagi England cannot afford lightweight options elsewhere in their game.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Jun 2014, 10:28 am

Parling did go with Lions and didn't look out of place lets remember so I wouldn't be too scared to see him start.

by Welly Tue 03 Jun 2014, 11:17 am

yeh but with the pack looking like it is we need Attowd to start imo, and I think Slater would be a bench option to help bulk him the scrum if Thomas comes on and Wilson and attwood come off.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Jun 2014, 11:21 am

I'd like Attwood to start as I think with the form he's shown he deserves it. It's only the emergence of Lawes and Launchbury as a unit which has held him back. I'd much prefer Parling as the bench cover to the 2nd row rather than Slater. Do you reckon he has the quality for a back row international, I haven't seen enough of him there to know?

by Scrumpy Tue 03 Jun 2014, 11:29 am

36 is out of the first test, so what do the Beeb do show a picture of Launchbury
Laugh

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/

by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Jun 2014, 11:31 am

Scrumpy wrote:36 is out of the first test, so what do the Beeb do show a picture of Launchbury

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/

Erm, that's Twelvetrees.

by Welly Tue 03 Jun 2014, 11:32 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd like Attwood to start as I think with the form he's shown he deserves it. It's only the emergence of Lawes and Launchbury as a unit which has held him back. I'd much prefer Parling as the bench cover to the 2nd row rather than Slater. Do you reckon he has the quality for a back row international, I haven't seen enough of him there to know?

Maybe think he lacks a step of pace in between the break downs to be a top class Flanker.

No 8 maybe.

but imo this coming season or the one after Slater and Kitchener will be the starting SR for tigers, I myself feel Slater has more upside than Parling if Launchbury is a def 80 min.

by Scrumpy Tue 03 Jun 2014, 11:42 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:36 is out of the first test, so what do the Beeb do show a picture of Launchbury

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/

Erm, that's Twelvetrees.

Not on the front page it wasn't!!!!

Now changed.

by kingelderfield Tue 03 Jun 2014, 12:02 pm

Parling is 6th choice;

1 Lawes
2 Launchbury
3 Attwood
4 Slater
5 Kitchener
6 Parling

Our depth in SR is incredible, if only our wings were of the same quality.

Parling has not shown the form this year - last year YES but not this year - and if he's being brought back for his perceived lineout inteligence, well quite frankly I thought it was all getting a bit too clever clever at the end of last season.

However my primary concern is about grunt and by comparison he dosn't stack up as a carrier or defender or scrumager.

by Welly Tue 03 Jun 2014, 12:34 pm

Harsh he was in good form this season when he has played, he had a very bad injury.

One thing Parling is certainly an excellent defender, and makes some great covering tackles. and he has a high work rate.

Your selling him way short imo.

His trouble with England is there are so many great second rows playing and coming through in England.

by kingelderfield Tue 03 Jun 2014, 12:35 pm

Regards flyhalf, everyone knows I'm a fan of Burns, and Cipriani, and with greater exposure and improvement they will both make their mark on the international game.

I would definitely start Cipriani with Burns coming on for the last 20/25 based on how things develop.

Burns showed a little towards the end of the season and some moments throughout the year, however no one can deny that is was a horrible season that he will need to put behind him. I think to start him is more of a gamble but obviously Bomber is closer to the ground and has his loyalty hierachy 'knows our game' mantra to uphold.

I was recently critiical (unlike me I know) of the kicking in the AP final, especially Saracens who at other times in the season, especially under Hodgson, have shown a more developed game. Finals rugby perhaps? However we have to have the right balance to our game from FH and IC, somthing like Farrell and 36 though there is still some way to go in that partnership. Both Burns and Cipriani have the 'ball in hand game' and to some degree the required kicking game, however kicking from hand was never a strenght of Cipriani (all those charge downs) and so with 36 abscent the team will need to be aware of our kicking options given the specific play situations;

Care/Youngs
Cipriani, Burns
EASTMOND - is a very talented player and ofcourse has a great RL grubber, however I hav'nt seen much else of a kicking game?
Brown

So a balanced game that is neither default kick or run but offers options, but beware our defensive kicking - must make row 10 for NO quick throw or have enough depth to allow our defensive alignment - this is the All Blacks after all.

by WELL-PAST-IT Tue 03 Jun 2014, 12:37 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
I'd just hate to see the All Blacks lose at Eden park.

I wouldn't

by kingelderfield Tue 03 Jun 2014, 12:45 pm

Welly wrote:Harsh he was in good form this season when he has played, he had a very bad injury.

One thing Parling is certainly an excellent defender, and makes some great covering tackles. and he has a high work rate.

Your selling him way short imo.

His trouble with England is there are so many great second rows playing and coming through in England.

He is quality and yes makes good cover defense tackles, had a serious injury etc., so you're probably right I am seeling him short. However this is international rugby and we should be uber critical of players and I still believe he lacks grunt in comparison.

There can be no excuse for England to be out muscled again. The Boks was our lesson and the GS was our fault. Never again.

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