England v New Zealand - Test 2 (14 Jun 2014)

First topic message reminder :

NEW ZEALAND v ENGLAND
Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin
Saturday 14th June, KO 19:35 local, 08:35 BST

TEAMS
New Zealand
1: Woodcock, 2: Coles, 3: O Franks, 4: Retallick, 5: Whitelock, 6: Messam, 7: McCaw (c), 8: Kaino, 9: A Smith, 10: Cruden, 11: Savea, 12: Nonu, 13: C Smith, 14: Jane, 15: B Smith
Bench: 16: Mealamu, 17: Crockett, 18: Faumuina, 19: Tuipulotu, 20: Vito, 21: Perenara, 22: Barrett, 23: Fekitoa
England
1: Marler, 2: Webber, 3: Wilson, 4: Launchbury, 5: Parling, 6: Wood, 7: Robshaw (c), 8: Morgan, 9: Care, 10: Farrell, 11: Yarde, 12: Twelvetrees, 13: Burrell, 14: Tuilagi (what was he thinking?), 15: Brown
Bench: 16: Hartley, 17: Mullan, 18: Brookes, 19: Lawes, 20: Vunipola, 21: Youngs, 22: Burns, 23: Ashton

OFFICIALS
Referee: Jaco Peyper (SARU)
ARs: Nigel Owens (WRU) & Jérôme Garcès (FFR)
TMO: George Ayoub (ARU)

Didn't manage the yellow card too well either, Burns should have been brought on, 36 subbed off and Burrel moved to 12 with Tuilagi at 13.

Against Costa Rica you mean, Duty?    

SimonofSurrey wrote:ABs 'stepping off the gas' two scores clear against England on home soil when they really could rub our noses in it? Come off it: about as likely as Hannibal Lector's best selling vegetarian cook book.

true :-)

TJ wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

I know it is boastful, but I think against any other team in the world we would be 2-0 up in the series after those two performances.  Nobody else would be able to hit us with that 25-30 minute spell like the All Blacks did.  

 

 South Africa?

This game does show that England are truely competitive but the all blacks ability to step up the pace and intensity for periods in the match without losing accuracy is unmatched anywhere in the world.

Difficult to say, we make so many mistakes while trying to attack that any competent attacking team could make us pay. We are a team that currently could just as easily lose by 10 to most top teams or run any one close.

yappysnap wrote:

Parling should never be playing for England again, Twelvetrees as well should have played his last game. Wood was anonymous, Haskell added so much power and operated so well on the deck, Wood didn't do any of this. Burrell's tackling was poor and he was anonymous for most of it. Care and Farrel just didn't create anything.

 By what logic had agreat first half.

 if that the case.

 Twelvetrees
 Burrell
 Webber
 Wood
 
 Should all never play for England again.

sickofwendy wrote:If we win by 10 next week can we have the shield?

Of course you can.

It looked like Haskell was on 5 Live, was he a sub, or not part of the squad?

Absolutely gutted with that.  Lancaster fecked that up royally.  Team selection was wrong and he failed to change things early enough when it was clear it was wrong.  His team selection for next week is going to tell us a lot about him, and about our chances in the world cup.

Not part of the squad.

That was really an 8 point loss. With no time left there is no way any team defends a 8 point lead the same way they would a 6, 4 or 2 point lead.

Same old problems though. Kicking badly and offloading when it's not on.

Welly wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

Parling should never be playing for England again, Twelvetrees as well should have played his last game. Wood was anonymous, Haskell added so much power and operated so well on the deck, Wood didn't do any of this. Burrell's tackling was poor and he was anonymous for most of it. Care and Farrel just didn't create anything.

 By what logic had agreat first half.

 if that the case.

 Twelvetrees
 Burrell
 Webber
 Wood
 
 Should all never play for England again.

Parling was anonymous all game mate, yes the lineout started well but even that didn't carry on. Otherwise he added nothing around the park and the scrum was weak.

As to the others on your list I said drop them! 36 should be gone until his club form picks up, Burrell as well is on thin ice after his tackling display. Wood i'd drop in a nano second for Haskell.

Webber was immense as well, not sure where you're going with that one...

I hope he plays Manu on the wing again.

For me the difference this week was the errors 36 made. The speculative offload that put Nz in for their second try lifted Nz and deflated England. there was no need as England were building nicely. After that we didn't see the ball again for 15 minutes. It was a long way back from there. 

Still, well played Nz and commiserations to England. SL will learn from this and they'll be stronger for it.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Absolutely gutted with that.  Lancaster fecked that up royally.  Team selection was wrong and he failed to change things early enough when it was clear it was wrong.  His team selection for next week is going to tell us a lot about him, and about our chances in the world cup.

+1

I think us scoring that last try will do more harm then good, it meant nothing compared to the rest of the game.

yappysnap wrote:
Parling was anonymous all game mate, yes the lineout started well but even that didn't carry on. Otherwise he added nothing around the park and the scrum was weak.

As to the others on your list I said drop them! 36 should be gone until his club form picks up, Burrell as well is on thin ice after his tackling display. Wood i'd drop in a nano second for Haskell.

Webber was immense as well, not sure where you're going with that one...

 See for me Parling play well in the first half made tackles, bossed the lineout etc.

 But also remember considering he had played 2 full games before tour.

 Him and Robshaw are the only forwards to play the full 80 in both games.

 Last week he had a great game but parling still imo lack match fitness for these sort of game.

 I thought he should have been subbed off instead of Launchbury.

 But to say he should never played for England again is a bit extreme considering he had a very good game last weekend.

Still can't see what Mike Catt brings to the team style as well.

Farrell has built a superb defensive structure and team tenacity.
Rowntree has the pack working as a unit that can compete with anyone (when selections are correct)
Lancaster has a culture that young players can drop into and play well within

Catt has given us? Loopy poor passes, guys out of position and a terrible kicking game.

Great game of rugby, the difference in this game is clearly the manner in which the AB’s contest at the breakdown, I counted one turn over made by England, and that was the maul that was stopped in the end.

AB’s certainly showed the English how to play at the breakdown, the incompetence of the English at the breakdown reminded me of the Boks in 2011.

Quick ball in the second half made all the difference.

How Tuilangi and Brown messed up a certain try near the end of the first half is certainly the biggest mystery, it was unimaginable that they stuffed that up.

I believe that was the moment that deflated the English, they would have gone into half time with a solid 11 point lead, and it gave the AB’s the heads up and the momentum.

The English also there after stopped using the space, they kept running into the defenders as if they have lost the plot, the All Blacks did what they do best, when you have the momentum, use it.

I did think though that it was a maul and Farrell was a tad unlucky to get a card, but then I didn’t hear Peyper call maul, so I suppose he got it right.

I thought Parling was anonymous.  He got the plaudits last week as the lineout was superb.  Once that wasn't the case this week, he offers very little in my opinion.  4. Launchbury 5. Lawes 19. Attwood has to be next weeks selection.

Congratulations to NZ, a powerful 2nd half performance, they should have won by more.

I wasn't impressed with England, certain aspects were very good, but that was heavily undermined by our woeful kicking game and chucking the ball about carelessly when it wasn't on.

Tuilagi on the wing is a waste. Lawes and Vunipola to start next week.

Welly wrote:

yappysnap wrote:
Parling was anonymous all game mate, yes the lineout started well but even that didn't carry on. Otherwise he added nothing around the park and the scrum was weak.

As to the others on your list I said drop them! 36 should be gone until his club form picks up, Burrell as well is on thin ice after his tackling display. Wood i'd drop in a nano second for Haskell.

Webber was immense as well, not sure where you're going with that one...

 See for me Parling play well in the first half made tackles, bossed the lineout etc.

 But also remember considering he had played 2 full games before tour.

 Him and Robshaw are the only forwards to play the full 80 in both games.

 Last week he had a great game but parling still imo lack match fitness for these sort of game.

 I thought he should have been subbed off instead of Launchbury.

 But to say he should never played for England again is a bit extreme considering he had a very good game last weekend.

True bringing Launchberry off was an odd call.

Parling to my mind just isn't good enough, there are younger players coming in that are as good as or better then him and his one big tick, leadership, just isn't there.

Well that was fun to watch. England played well and NZ struggled to match them for a while. It was disappointing to see so many errors from NZ still and then to let England back into it at the end shows that they still have a way to go in developing that hard edge of the best AB teams. It was good to see Barrett get time at first five. England lucky to get that try to Brown but I also thought it was a bad decision to card Farrell.

Very surprised Manu froze up on that Ben Smith run down. A flying Samoan in that situation would normally have worked Smith out.

I think his England days are numbered.

 considering I think Kitchener will over take him at Leicester next season.

 I would like to think next season rank our second rows as following

 1. Launchbury
 2. Lawes
 3. Attwood
 4. Slater
 5. Kitchener
 6. Kruis/Parling
 8. Stooke

Biltong wrote:Great game of rugby, the difference in this game is clearly the manner in which the AB’s contest at the breakdown, I counted one turn over made by England, and that was the maul that was stopped in the end.

AB’s certainly showed the English how to play at the breakdown, the incompetence of the English at the breakdown reminded me of the Boks in 2011.

Quick ball in the second half made all the difference.

A lot of us were calling for Steffon Armitage for this tour, but unfortunately politics have got in the way of it. This game showed us up massively at the breakdown, we didn't even come close to making a turnover all game and NZ just had total control there.

Taylorman wrote:Very surprised Manu froze up on that Ben Smith run down. A flying Samoan in that situation would normally have worked Smith out.

 Had an feeling Manu was looking for brown and released how far he was, by which time he didn't have enough speed to get to full ramming.

Well, we got the Tuilagi wing experiment out the way at least.

Lawes for Parling, Ashton for Burrell, 36 and Tuilagi in the centre and I think we have a team on a par with this NZ side.

Brown looked well off all game after that knock. Care had a poor game. Big positive? I think we have a top class 30man squad developing. Great to see how disappointed the players are and not celebrating a 1 point loss.

Let's finish on a win though lads?

I'll be hoping Wales break their SH hoodoo later, the WC is shaping up nicely!

Welly wrote:I think his England days are numbered.

 considering I think Kitchener will over take him at Leicester next season.

 I would like to think next season rank our second rows as following

 1. Launchbury
 2. Lawes
 3. Attwood
 4. Slater
 5. Kitchener
 6. Kruis/Parling
 8. Stooke

So after all that you agree with me?!      

Think you're right about that line up, will be interesting to see who gets picked for the Crusaders game and how they go.

yappysnap wrote:

Biltong wrote:Great game of rugby, the difference in this game is clearly the manner in which the AB’s contest at the breakdown, I counted one turn over made by England, and that was the maul that was stopped in the end.

AB’s certainly showed the English how to play at the breakdown, the incompetence of the English at the breakdown reminded me of the Boks in 2011.

Quick ball in the second half made all the difference.

A lot of us were calling for Steffon Armitage for this tour, but unfortunately politics have got in the way of it. This game showed us up massively at the breakdown, we didn't even come close to making a turnover all game and NZ just had total control there.

Sadly it doesn't like it will happen, but it certainly would have been interesting to see Armitage out there as a different option for us.

yappysnap wrote:

TJ wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

I know it is boastful, but I think against any other team in the world we would be 2-0 up in the series after those two performances.  Nobody else would be able to hit us with that 25-30 minute spell like the All Blacks did.  

 

 South Africa?

This game does show that England are truely competitive but the all blacks ability to step up the pace and intensity for periods in the match without losing accuracy is unmatched anywhere in the world.

Difficult to say, we make so many mistakes while trying to attack that any competent attacking team could make us pay. We are a team that currently could just as easily lose by 10 to most top teams or run any one close.

Not sure this current side would easily beat oz or SA at the moment. Oz are looking good and that bok team will tear Wales apart tonight.

yappysnap wrote:

Biltong wrote:Great game of rugby, the difference in this game is clearly the manner in which the AB’s contest at the breakdown, I counted one turn over made by England, and that was the maul that was stopped in the end.

AB’s certainly showed the English how to play at the breakdown, the incompetence of the English at the breakdown reminded me of the Boks in 2011.

Quick ball in the second half made all the difference.

A lot of us were calling for Steffon Armitage for this tour, but unfortunately politics have got in the way of it. This game showed us up massively at the breakdown, we didn't even come close to making a turnover all game and NZ just had total control there.

When Armitage decides he wants to play for his country, he will probably find a place. Up to him.

I love that Haskell has come back in fashion. I like Wood, and his engine and aggression is valuable, but we need players who can stop their forwards on the gainline. We have two at present - Haskell and Attwood. We need to play the former and have the latter on the bench. Sorry but Parling doesn't do enough outside of the lineout for me that Lawes doesn't do far better.

Welly wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Very surprised Manu froze up on that Ben Smith run down. A flying Samoan in that situation would normally have worked Smith out.

 Had an feeling Manu was looking for brown and released how far he was, by which time he didn't have enough speed to get to full ramming.

Best thing about that tackle was that he won the turnover.

I think the result reflects where england are at present, a one point defeat in NZ is disappointing but at the same time nothing to be sniffed at for a NH team, if anything I think SL selections cost us, Manu isn't a international winger.

Summer Mid term report:
Showing real signs of progress but loss of focus at crucial times needs to be worked on, other wise it's been a good 1st half. Well done.

Only issue now is that England have thrown everything at the ABs these last two games on the downward slope of a long season and holidays to get to... ABs still came out winners (just!) of both as they ratchet up their machine for the Rugby Championship.  Two opposite ends of a season doing battle.

So third game.  Will England have the fire in the belly to push for the line one more time or will the ABs have blown off whatever cobwebs are left on their systems, and put an 80 together that could punish England?

I was trying to work out the ending of this entertaining game - an ending which seemed strange to me.  England were typically England and came back for more.  I admire that attitude.  But ABs floundered and lost focus almost immediately when they knew there wasn't time enough for England to slice through the 8 points.  Job done before the game ended.  Minds closed down, which meant that yes, they defended their line notionally but they were fully prepared to take another hit of 7 points as long as it wasn't 8.

That attitude banboozles me as a competitive person but it also intrigues me because they are so clinical in that very thought.  Enough was enough.  They'd won - game over.  Close down the machine till next time.  Don't overheat it.  No pride required to keep England from scoring again.  Victory was victory - all one point.

So that attitude kinda makes me think they were content with the performance, they'd more fully assessed their machine and they're happy with the progress - all one point of it - and that they intend rising the performance a notch again next time.  Those ABs, they do keep you thinking and wondering what they're thinking.

yappysnap wrote:
So after all that you agree with me?!      

Think you're right about that line up, will be interesting to see who gets picked for the Crusaders game and how they go.

 I agree he will prob be out of the squad.

 But not because of how he played this weekend where I feel more players played worse than he did.

 Just the younger talent will have a season more experience which may prove vital.

 If you get that.

Would also be inclined to rest brown next weekend on the bench and start foden.

mid_gen wrote:Well, we got the Tuilagi wing experiment out the way at least.

Lawes for Parling,  Ashton for Burrell, 36 and Tuilagi in the centre and I think we have a team on a par with this NZ side.

Brown looked well off all game after that knock. Care had a poor game. Big positive? I think we have a top class 30man squad developing. Great to see how disappointed the players are and not celebrating a 1 point loss.

Let's finish on a win though lads?

I'll be hoping Wales break their SH hoodoo later, the WC is shaping up nicely!

I'm disappointed with, and for, Care, I think he's a much better option than Youngs and was hoping he'd nail the position today.

I'm torn on Ashton. We need a winger we all agree, but Savea up against Ashton is going to be a car-crash. I know people don't particularly like May but his defence is far better - if his positioning is a little off sometimes.

One thing I noticed was how much more effective the ABs were at making sure their forwards latched on and pushed the ball carrier over the gain-line and carried on going to clear out, with Smith then very quickly getting the ball away. We need to work out how we deal with that, and maybe how we replicate it. Lots of our forwards were going in isolated with our pack looking knackered.

We've said for a long time the first test was the best chance to win one, purely for the reasons the ABs showed tonight- familiarity and time together. Next week will be harder for England again. They've worked out what it takes to bring them down and another week together will see the ABs move up another gear. England meanwhile stagnated a bit, possibly spoilt by having too many selection options, and focussing on that rather than pushing the gains of last week. manu's selection on the wing was the biggest risk, and it showed.

I read a lot of good things about Brown during the 6N but I'm thinking Smith is better at FB. Smith had a stellar 2013 as well so his game today isn't a one off. Is Brown tired or did he just have a good 6N and hasn't pushed on?

yeah as soon as Smith moved to centre he went backwards. I'd say Daggs days are numbered unless he finds another gear.

ebop wrote:I read a lot of good things about Brown during the 6N but I'm thinking Smith is better at FB. Smith had a stellar 2013 as well so his game today isn't a one off. Is Brown tired or did he just have a good 6N and hasn't pushed on?

 
 Brown has played something like 32 games (I think) for Quins and England.

 and in the 6N was MothM like 4/5 times.

 I would put money on him being tired.

 Think foden should start next weekend.

Brown has been consistently good all seasons for quins again.

He just looked off after that early hit today to me.

Yeah, that's what I heard and am thinking. Manu was wasted on the wing. Yarde had a conspicuous first 1/4 then didn't see him again.

My thoughts on the game from an England perspective: didn't think we dominated the first half, we dominated the first 20.

Still left too many points out there in that first period, and we're still too impatient and force that pass or offload when it's not quite on.

-Lack of flow and creativity at 12/13 a problem
- Care not as sharp as usual.
-Despite that, this game was lost up front and compounded by panic kicking the ball back to the abs allowing them to build momentum.
-Restarts remain a problem
-Lineout chalk and cheese with last week.


I too would like to see an eastmond tuilagi partnership next week, Haskell certainly looked more dynamic than wood and merits a recall though that may have been circumstantial to the way the game was going around them.

Another awesome game to watch well done to both teams ! for me the main points are:
Burrell has lost his place..awful in defense, one dimensional in attack
Manu should retain the 13 jersey
Care had a shocker but give him a chance to recover
12 trees has been average in every game i've seen him in....Eastmond or even Barrit
Ashton deserves another shot, he would have finished that manu breakaway if starting
Parling was shattered at 50 minutes, trust Lawes to run the lineout with hartley; and impact attwood on the bench.
If care has a great game and we improve or tactical kicking to what it was in the 1st test we have a chance(albeit a slim one)

MArler
Hartley
Wilson
Lawes
Lunchbox
Wood
Robshaw
Vunipola

Care
FArrell
AShton
EAstmond
TUilagi
Yarde
Brown

Thomas
Mullan
Webber
Attwood
Morgan
Youngs
Burns
Foden

So many people making rash judgements after that game. The second half we were poor and made too many errors, with our kicking game not relieving any pressure. The ABs were far superior compared to last week and took the game away from us. But still in the first 20 we were v good and 3 tries against the ABs isn't bad at all. The score flatters us, but we weren't that bad. Tuilagi was wasted on the wing, 12T was inconsistent and Farrell was sub par. Parling is a very able deputy when Lawes isn't available and calls from people to not at for England again are ridiculous he had a good 1st half. But for next week we should have Manu and Eastmond in the centres, burns at fly half, Ashton on the wing and Lawes back with Launchbury and Attwood on the bench.

Yea Foden to come in next week, Brown looked well off the pace which I hope is just down to tiredness.

True Tman, smith must surely be the incumbent now.

So does it go:
B.Smith, Beaudie Barrett, Israel Dagg with Charles Piutau chugging up the rear?

So perhaps next week:

Marler
Webber
Flatman
Lawes
Launchberry (fitness?)
Haskell
Robshaw
Vunipola
Care
Farrel
Yarde
Eastmond
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden

Hartley, Brookes, Mullan, Attwood, Morgan, Youngs, Burns, Brown