Whats Going On In Wales Part 3

by geoff998rugby Tue 10 Jun 2014, 11:01 am

First topic message reminder :

Understand but if the EGM had gone a certain way his position would have been untenable.

Thats not going to happen now.

Did I hear correctly that a joint statement is due by WRU and RRW concerrning central/joint contracts.
Also heard something about an East/West split within RRW but they may be just groundless gossip

by Cardiff Dave Fri 18 Jul 2014, 7:15 pm

Today was D-Day wasn't it? 18July?
Heard or read nothing to the contrary. Time for the 4 to go for it.

by Guest Fri 18 Jul 2014, 7:23 pm

Everyday is D-Day in RRW land.

According to Simon Thomas a deal is close, heard that one before, and he claims to have come to that conclusion after having talked with three of those on the RRW side, and three on the WRU side.

by Cardiff Dave Fri 18 Jul 2014, 7:37 pm

Munchkin wrote:Everyday is D-Day in RRW land.

According to Simon Thomas a deal is close, heard that one before, and he claims to have come to that conclusion after having talked with three of those on the RRW side, and three on the WRU side.

The Fail bloke? More interested in riding a bike than investigating what's been going on and what is going on in Welsh rugby.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 18 Jul 2014, 8:22 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just a bit of run, what is the best Nwq team your side has had (regional time only)

My Cardiff computer says no. I'll reboot.
Still says no?

Its got nowt to do with having to put SNK or Parks in there lol.

Also Simon Thomas is a set up on Andy Bowel, he knows the shape of a rugby ball.

by **Notch** Fri 18 Jul 2014, 8:39 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just a bit of run, what is the best Nwq team your side has had (regional time only)

15 - Iongi
14 - Havili'i
13 - Finau
12 - King
11 - Lamont
10 - Hercus
9 - Mertens

1 - Manu
2 - Schwalger
3 - Adriaanse
4 - Earle
5 - Snyman
6 - Lyons
7 - Barclay
8 - Morgan

Bar Iongi all have given their all to us when they were here

Oooh, can I join in? Well our whole squad is NWQ. I'll have to do NIQ...

1. Robbie Kempson (SA)
2. Matt Sexton (NZ)
3. BJ Botha (SA)
4. Justin Harrison (Aus)
5. Johann Muller (SA)
6. Robbie Diack (SA- played for Ireland on residency)
7. Andy Ward (NZ- played for Ireland on residency)
8. Pedrie Wannenburg (SA)
9. Ruan Pienaar (SA)
10. Adam Larkin (Aus)
11. Simon Danielli (Sco)
12. Paul Steinmetz (NZ)
13. Jared Payne (NZ- may play for Ireland on residency)
14. Timoci Nagusa (Fiji)
15. Stefan Terblanche (SA)

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 18 Jul 2014, 8:42 pm

Notch, that's cheating, you guys only by good NIQs

by Cardiff Dave Fri 18 Jul 2014, 8:50 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just a bit of run, what is the best Nwq team your side has had (regional time only)

My Cardiff computer says no. I'll reboot.
Still says no?

Its got nowt to do with having to put SNK or Parks in there lol.

Also Simon Thomas is a set up on Andy Bowel, he knows the shape of a rugby ball.

Now you've done it. The Fail likes to avoid the issues and do a "best of" or "worst of" type articles.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 18 Jul 2014, 8:51 pm

The fail only runs the worst of articles, as in the worst articles going

by Cardiff Dave Fri 18 Jul 2014, 9:02 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The fail only runs the worst of articles, as in the worst articles going

The Fail is the WRU. No ifs and buts about it. Hope the 4 take the chance and do the necessary.

by Cardiff Dave Mon 21 Jul 2014, 9:18 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just a bit of run, what is the best Nwq team your side has had (regional time only)

My Cardiff computer says no. I'll reboot.
Still says no?

Its got nowt to do with having to put SNK or Parks in there lol.

Also Simon Thomas is a set up on Andy Bowel, he knows the shape of a rugby ball.

Now you've done it. The Fail likes to avoid the issues and do a "best of" or "worst of" type articles.

Typical Fail junk;

July 21, 2014;

"The rugby jerseys that made you cringe...The boldest and most bizarre kits in recent history"

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 21 Jul 2014, 9:29 pm

Dai. I saw that today. The Scarlets green away kit was good. Our white euro kit, our poop/red quarter shirt, they were bad. Bit like your shirt thats in the worst dressed list ain't as bad as the pink one (granted for charity).

by Chunky Norwich Tue 22 Jul 2014, 10:17 am

The more you copy and paste links to articles from that disgusting publication, the more you contribute to Andy Howell's salary.

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 22 Jul 2014, 10:34 am

Chunky is right, the fail is becoming more of a comic than a paper, the article on ugliest kids, best NWQs, worst NWQs, Famous Players I Was In School With, etc. They are not news, they are just pointless drivel.

by Chunky Norwich Tue 22 Jul 2014, 10:46 am

PLEASE paste the article in full and NOT the link to it.

by Cardiff Dave Tue 22 Jul 2014, 11:31 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:PLEASE paste the article in full and NOT the link to it.

Agreed and earlier post edited accordingly.

by SecretFly Tue 22 Jul 2014, 11:36 am

Today is the deadline.

by lostinwales Tue 22 Jul 2014, 11:39 am

SecretFly wrote:Today is the deadline.

What for? Deciding the date of the next deadline?

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 22 Jul 2014, 11:41 am

SecretFly wrote:Today is the deadline.

Is it, I thought it was Friday just gone.

by Cardiff Dave Tue 22 Jul 2014, 11:52 am

I can see it now; "The Top 10 deadliest deadlines, ever"

by Irish Londoner Tue 22 Jul 2014, 12:34 pm

All this deadline stuff reminds me of the sort of phone calls you used to have with your girlfriend when you were about 16 "You put the phone down", "No, you put the phone down", "No you", etc.

Short answer is that RWW has only two options:
1 - Negotiate the best they can and then take whatever the WRU offer.
2 - Don't make a deal and collapse the regions - which I think is the WRU endgame anyway.

by HammerofThunor Tue 22 Jul 2014, 12:38 pm

I just hope the other unions in the PRO12 force the WRU to nominate their teams for the PRO12 sooner rather than later (it's needed). Then we can move on the legal debates on whether the WRU would be forced to hand over the competition money or keep it.

by Kingshu Tue 22 Jul 2014, 1:21 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Notch, that's cheating, you guys only by good NIQs

Not always, remember Tamaiti Horua, Carlo Del Fava (he was ok, no Muller though) Simin Daniellie (good but not the highest quality NIQ) while Scarlets had King (in his prime) and some other quality NWQ players

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 22 Jul 2014, 1:23 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:All this deadline stuff reminds me of the sort of phone calls you used to have with your girlfriend when you were about 16 "You put the phone down", "No, you put the phone down", "No you", etc..

And they always used to end up "oh feck this, its just too much like hard your, feck off"

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 22 Jul 2014, 1:25 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:I just hope the other unions in the PRO12 force the WRU to nominate their teams for the PRO12 sooner rather than later (it's needed). Then we can move on the legal debates on whether the WRU would be forced to hand over the competition money or keep it.

With the fixtures already being announced etc, I would assume that the regions are already 'nominated' for this season.

by **Notch** Tue 22 Jul 2014, 1:57 pm

Kingshu wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Notch, that's cheating, you guys only by good NIQs

Not always, remember Tamaiti Horua, Carlo Del Fava (he was ok, no Muller though) Simin Daniellie (good but not the highest quality NIQ) while Scarlets had King (in his prime) and some other quality NWQ players

Ulster Worst NIQ Players

1. Joel Vetiayaki (Fiji)- Rumours at the time it was his brother turned up instead of him.
2. Rob Dewey (Sco)- Injury problems, fitness problems and a guy who sees a four on one overlap and decides to run into the one defender. Seriously, this happened a few minutes from time when we were at home to Scarlets by less than one score and deep in their territory. He ignored the three guys who all had the line at their mercy and ran directly into the Scarlets player and knocked it on. Worst moment of my life.
3. Tamaiti Horua (Aus)- a guy I felt sorry for, because he was just permanently broken. Injured and when he did get on the pitch was clearly not right and had to retire just a few months after signing. But his cameos were bad enough to make this list, hope he was better that that before he got perm-crocked!
4. Grant Webb (NZ)- Injury replacement in the season from hell, remember teams just kicking every restart to him because he couldn't catch a cold.
5. Paul Emerick (USA)- evidently thought he was at Ulster on an MMA contract. What he lacked in not making any positive contribution to the game, not even once, he made up for with aggro and cheap shots

Others I've forgotten? Maybe. But before Humphreys took over as Director of Rugby and announced the signings of Pienaar, Muller and Xavier Rush (there's another one- so bad he never even turned up) we would have had a pretty shocking selection!

Sorry for hijacking the thread, Roger Lewis out etc.

by **Notch** Tue 22 Jul 2014, 2:25 pm

Anyway, back on topic Ryan Jones has some strong words about the current impasse and how its affecting Adam Jones.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/adam-jones-national-icon-its-7475770#.U85lIEzeeV4.twitter

by Chunky Norwich Tue 22 Jul 2014, 3:00 pm

Don't click on the link if you care about welsh rugby.

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 22 Jul 2014, 3:18 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:Don't click on the link if you care about welsh rugby.

I tried copying and pasting from there earlier, and I was unable to highlight anything, maybe they have wised up to people boycotting sending links

by Steffan Tue 22 Jul 2014, 5:28 pm

Very sad that the players are being effected by the greed of the four current Pro Clubs

The sooner the WRU shuts them down, sets up real regions and gives the best players in Wales a decent contract and wage the better

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 22 Jul 2014, 5:49 pm

Its sad a player had two good contracts in front of him and signed neither, because he wanted a longer term.

by Steffan Tue 22 Jul 2014, 6:03 pm

Ah well hopefully next season he will be playing for either a real region or a team in England

by HammerofThunor Tue 22 Jul 2014, 6:32 pm

Wales online wrote:Wales legend Ryan Jones has labelled the ongoing limbo his Wales team mate Adam Jones finds himself in as 'tragic', highlighting as the 'human' cost of the sport's political warfare.

Tighthead prop Adam, who has been linked with joining Ryan at Bristol, remains in no-man's land with the season just weeks away.

A deal remains on the table from the Ospreys but cannot be progressed because of the unresolved wrangling with the Welsh Rugby Union.

A central contract with the WRU has been mooted but that has also come to nothing and has no chance of doing so until an agreement with the regions is reached.

And as well as Bristol, there have been suggestions of interest from other English clubs including Sale and Saracens.

Now Ryan Jones, a team mate of Adam's at regional and international level for years, has given an emotional appraisal of his good friend's situation.

"I am very friendly with Adam and it's tragic he has been caught up in this," said the former Lions back row.

"That’s the human side of all of this. Hundreds of people are directly affected by what goes on behind closed doors.

"It’s guys like Adam and his family I worry about because he has been nothing but a wonderful servant to Welsh rugby.

"He is a national hero and an icon, yet he is currently without a contract or a club.

"He’s an incredibly proud Welshman and does not get the credit he deserves.

"He has made huge personal sacrifices to stay in Wales which has not been recognised.

"I hope for his sake it’s sorted and he can get on with playing rugby"

Jones went on to stress his concerns about the potential damage all the bitter in-fighting has done to the image of the Welsh game around the globe.

He even said he is glad to be away from his home country for the time being, and playing across the Severn Bridge at Bristol.

He added: "It’s our national game and I am concerned about the way its perceived by others around the world.

"I am glad to be out of the bowl but I keep close eye on what happens.

"I am a Welsh rugby fan too and have a lot of friends who are still involved in the game and it’s a deep concern for me.

"It’s sad it’s been so publicly lived out. I just hope they come to a speedy resolution.

"It’s about a time for compromise so let’s get it sorted and move on.

“We are going into the season and we have some big fixtures coming in and it’s a World Cup year.

"It is a time we should be focusing on the positives.

"Welsh rugby needs to be a in a good place for the players to be in a good place for the up coming tournaments.”

Jones was speaking in Glasgow where he is a Team Wales attache for the Commonwealth Games.

The former Ospreys forward insisted he still harbours international ambitions despite being left out of the summer tour of South Africa.

Yet Jones also hinted it might me time for younger back-rowers to come through.

"I would never turn down the opportunity to play for Wales," added Jones.

"I spoke at length with Warren Gatland and the Welsh Rugby Union before signing for Bristol and explained my reasons for going.

"Warren knows what I can do and if I am fit and I am playing well they know where to get hold of me.

"The time is now for the other guys and it’s about the future.

"I will always be available and want to be part of a strong Welsh Rugby Union."

Bristol Rugby's Ryan Jones receives treatment for an injury during the Greene King IPA Championship Final
Jones broke his leg playing for Bristol in the end of May in the Premiership play-off against London Welsh.

Bristol lost the two-leg encounter and Bristol will remain in the Championship next season having been huge favourites to go up.

"Two weeks into my Bristol career and I break my leg...you imagine how that went down!" he said.

"Hopefully I will be back in mid-October.

"Bristol have a long term goal and part of the reason I went there was Andy Robinson and Sean Holley’s desire to return to the Premiership and we did not quite manage that this season.

"But this is an exciting project and I am coming to the end of my career.

"We possibly weren’t ready to go up last season but we are making gains and strides behind the scenes which we hope will allow us to return to the top of English rugby."

by Steffan Tue 22 Jul 2014, 9:51 pm

Why doesnt the horrible Pieman give him a contract at Cardiff then if he is as committed to Welsh rugby as he says?

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 22 Jul 2014, 10:17 pm

Steffan wrote:Why doesnt the horrible Pieman give him a contract at Cardiff then if he is as committed to Welsh rugby as he says?

Could be because Adam just isn't the prop he once was, after all the blues have Craig Mitchell and Scott Andrews, two welsh capped tightheads for next season already.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 23 Jul 2014, 5:43 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Steffan wrote:Why doesnt the horrible Pieman give him a contract at Cardiff then if he is as committed to Welsh rugby as he says?

Could be because Adam just isn't the prop he once was, after all the blues have Craig Mitchell and Scott Andrews, two welsh capped tightheads for next season already.

SS,

I would still rate A Jones above both of them but I guess they are both younger so have more in tank etc and I guess at the moment no one wants to sign anyone until they know if or where they will be playing.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 23 Jul 2014, 8:17 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Steffan wrote:Why doesnt the horrible Pieman give him a contract at Cardiff then if he is as committed to Welsh rugby as he says?

Could be because Adam just isn't the prop he once was, after all the blues have Craig Mitchell and Scott Andrews, two welsh capped tightheads for next season already.

SS,

I would still rate A Jones above both of them but I guess they are both younger so have more in tank etc and I guess at the moment no one wants to sign anyone until they know if or where they will be playing.

I think that a lot of people look at Adam Jones through rose tinted specs. He has not been the force he was meant be for some time, and IMO he appears to be sliding further and further down the pecking order. We wasn't even first choice at the Ospreys by the end of the season.

He was offered a contract by the Ospreys and WRU and signed neither as he wanted a longer contract. He has now signed a deal with Toulon (in principle) to move there post RWC. Why the hell would anyone want to sign him, for one season without a chance of retaining him? The only option in Wales would be the Dragons, yet they are have that south African prop (their paying him as he is contracted, even though the WRU have not signed him off yet).

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 23 Jul 2014, 9:16 am

Just been on the fail website and in their players to watch this weekend at the 7s, they have Aaron Warren as a player to watch. But if you look out for the bloke in the picture, you'll never see him. They put the wrong bloody brothers photo up. Amateur work.

by Scrumpy Wed 23 Jul 2014, 11:38 am

Adam Jones should call it a day and start some real eating.

by bedfordwelsh Thu 24 Jul 2014, 6:00 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Steffan wrote:Why doesnt the horrible Pieman give him a contract at Cardiff then if he is as committed to Welsh rugby as he says?

Could be because Adam just isn't the prop he once was, after all the blues have Craig Mitchell and Scott Andrews, two welsh capped tightheads for next season already.

SS,

I would still rate A Jones above both of them but I guess they are both younger so have more in tank etc and I guess at the moment no one wants to sign anyone until they know if or where they will be playing.

I think that a lot of people look at Adam Jones through rose tinted specs. He has not been the force he was meant be for some time, and IMO he appears to be sliding further and further down the pecking order. We wasn't even first choice at the Ospreys by the end of the season.

He was offered a contract by the Ospreys and WRU and signed neither as he wanted a longer contract. He has now signed a deal with Toulon (in principle) to move there post RWC. Why the hell would anyone want to sign him, for one season without a chance of retaining him? The only option in Wales would be the Dragons, yet they are have that south African prop (their paying him as he is contracted, even though the WRU have not signed him off yet).

Agree with all the above and if the SA prop deal does come through then ok but he could still do a job for us at Dave and personally still rate him above Andrews and Mitchell. Just glad from a Welsh POV that Lee has started to come through now as our cupboard is fairly bare at T/Head. Just hope Lee can curb his discipline a bit though.

by **Notch** Thu 24 Jul 2014, 3:25 pm

Simon Thomas has just said on twitter "Looks like Wales might have a team to play the 'Boks in November after all! Hopes of peace increasing."

https://twitter.com/simonrug/status/492312887172816896

But we've heard that before as well. It would be fantastic if they could just get it sorted out before the pre-season games.

by Welshmushroom Thu 24 Jul 2014, 3:33 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Steffan wrote:Why doesnt the horrible Pieman give him a contract at Cardiff then if he is as committed to Welsh rugby as he says?

Could be because Adam just isn't the prop he once was, after all the blues have Craig Mitchell and Scott Andrews, two welsh capped tightheads for next season already.

SS,

I would still rate A Jones above both of them but I guess they are both younger so have more in tank etc and I guess at the moment no one wants to sign anyone until they know if or where they will be playing.

I think that a lot of people look at Adam Jones through rose tinted specs. He has not been the force he was meant be for some time, and IMO he appears to be sliding further and further down the pecking order. We wasn't even first choice at the Ospreys by the end of the season.

He was offered a contract by the Ospreys and WRU and signed neither as he wanted a longer contract. He has now signed a deal with Toulon (in principle) to move there post RWC. Why the hell would anyone want to sign him, for one season without a chance of retaining him? The only option in Wales would be the Dragons, yet they are have that south African prop (their paying him as he is contracted, even though the WRU have not signed him off yet).

Agree with all the above and if the SA prop deal does come through then ok but he could still do a job for us at Dave and personally still rate him above Andrews and Mitchell. Just glad from a Welsh POV that Lee has started to come through now as our cupboard is fairly bare at T/Head. Just hope Lee can curb his discipline a bit though.

I wonder if Adam may actually be on his way to Rodney. He clearly is waiting to annouce his signing until the WRU/Region thing has been sorted. If the rumours are that he is going to pen a deal with the WRU for 1 year and is then off to Toulon, he may very well be heading down to the parade as he has openly commented on the fact he would like to link up with Lyn again. I wonder if this is why the WRU have been slow in approving the south african tighthead signing?

That said will he actually leave the Ospreys, who knows?

by Pete330v2 Thu 24 Jul 2014, 3:36 pm

Notch wrote:Simon Thomas has just said on twitter "Looks like Wales might have a team to play the 'Boks in November after all! Hopes of peace increasing."

https://twitter.com/simonrug/status/492312887172816896

But we've heard that before as well. It would be fantastic if they could just get it sorted out before the pre-season games.

Fingers crossed Notch.....Come on Wales, we need you!!!!!!

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 24 Jul 2014, 3:38 pm

How many times have we seen Simon Thomas tweet that piece is on the horizon? He is starting to sound a bit like that Iraqi bloke that said the westerners were losing the battle in Iraq.

by **Notch** Thu 24 Jul 2014, 3:41 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:How many times have we seen Simon Thomas tweet that piece is on the horizon? He is starting to sound a bit like that Iraqi bloke that said the westerners were losing the battle in Iraq.

Simon Thomas is the Neville Chamberlain of Welsh Rugby Smile

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 24 Jul 2014, 10:40 pm

Apparently Scarlets have a plan A and B, depending on the negotiations with the union. And have/are prepared to go it alone per çe, until the AIs, when the union will be desperate to make a deal. Seems like they are serious about holding on for what they see as acceptable, even if they have to take a rough patch to get it.

by Irish Londoner Fri 25 Jul 2014, 8:55 am

Would it be the other way round - if there's no deal in place by the time the AI squads are announced would the pressure be on RRW to settle not the WRU.
Secnario being WRU announces the squad for the AIs, RRW says "were not releasing them", WRU reiterate that the players are selected and should attend international training unless they state they do not want to make themselves available to play for Wales in the future.
Players panic with RWC2015 round the corner, the Welsh public (most of whom are worried about the international side not the RRW teams) go ballistic, the WRU point out to RRW that if the AI's dont go ahead then the loss of income means even less to go to them - WRU will prioritise funding the Championship and amateur clubs before RRW, RRW painted into a corner.
Brinkmanship I know but after the Moffett vote Lewis is (or at least sees himself) as secure in his role.
Personally i think (hope) it will be all resolved before the AIs but if I was a RRW team owner I'd be looking at the best (least financially damaging) way I could disentangle myself from ownership and leave the WRU to run it.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 25 Jul 2014, 9:11 am

Irish, not really although I see you point.

The regions will say sorry but we are not releasing players until the IRB mandated times. The WRU will try to demonise the regions in the press, however by this time the rugby public will/are already divided into rrw or wru backers, so the press statements will not really have any impact. Then Wales will go to field a team against South Africa, discovering that they can not field the majority of players based in France or England, and now they will be stuck with fielding anyone on a regional contract (not just the regional starters, but some of the semi-pros are on regional development contracts etc), and will be forced into fielding a team made of Welsh Prem players who are deemed not up to international standards.

The loss of money going tot he regions from the WRU has already started, its almost been a month already! So the threat of the union not being able to fund them better wouldn't matter. The players considering careers elsewhere will most likely be doing so already as they will have been made aware of the situation regarding cash flows etc. However the WRU can not through the whole you need to attend the 'extra long' training sessions, as it will be only George North who is able to do it! Also the WRU have been offered to buy the regions out, but they can not financially do it without the money men behind them. So both sides know full well that the union needs the money men as much as the money men need the union.

I have heard that peace is around the corner, as in with before the end of the weekend, however the regions do seem to have cut their cloth a bit over the summer, and are genuinely prepared to go the distance.

by Irish Londoner Fri 25 Jul 2014, 11:08 am

SS - I really do hope it is resoloved, NH rugby needs a strong Wales.

by HammerofThunor Fri 25 Jul 2014, 11:09 am

I think some people are confusing releasing the players at all and releasing them in the additional slots outside the window. At least that's how it sometimes reads.

The players will be released for the window. They won't be outside it. As spiderman says, I can't see anyone suddenly becoming outraged by the change. Especially as it's already happened before when the Regions refused to release the players fr the additional time and the WRU took them to court (after the IRB turned them away as it was for additional time not IW time). That was over disagreements in what the PA at the time meant (I guessing it was non-specific). I don't remember much outrage at the time. And I think it was 2006, just before the world Cup

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 25 Jul 2014, 11:57 am

To be fair Since regionalism years we have had the court case between the regions and WRU (Moffet V Roger), we have had the court case over Pontypool (?) being kicked out the prem, we have had player strikes over the amount they get paid. However each time the resolution has either been in the WRU 's favour or a real bastardisation that has pleased neither side.

I think this time it has come to a head, and all the old arguments are being re-raked (maybe not in public) which might be causing the process to be harder this time around.

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