Whats Going On In Wales Part 3

First topic message reminder :

Understand but if the EGM had gone a certain way his position would have been untenable.

Thats not going to happen now.

Did I hear correctly that a joint statement is due by WRU and RRW concerrning central/joint contracts.
Also heard something about an East/West split within RRW but they may be just groundless gossip

doctornickolas wrote:

Dave Parade has a capacity of just over 9,000 since the new stand. The capacity went down. So is it really suitable?

Yep. It's a marvelous ground although I preferred the old Argus and the nutter headcases it contained within. If demand for tickets increase for any reason, then put up prices. Easy.

No9 wrote:

I can't disagree with international results since 2005, but there's no evidence that it was Bourne out of the regional setup. It is more likely to be the coming through of good talented players at that period.

I disagree. Pooling the players into 5 then 4 teams worked wonders. Special mention for the Ospreys who supplied 13 of the 15 starters against England at Twickers in 2008. Mark Jones and Nugget being the non Os. What a game that was! England 19-26 Wales;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7215056.stm

I see that another EGM could be on the cards coz some little clubs aint happy with the league restructure. Also, Adam Jones maybe going to Bristol yeah? And a certain so-and-so is calling another certain so-and-so, a turd.
Feck me, what a joke Welsh rugby is.

I'd be surprised if another egm was on the cards - generally there is a time limit between calling egms (so you need to be very careful how you do it in the first place).

This rule is there to allow company boards to get on with running their business and not be continually disrupted from doing that.

Sin é wrote:I'd be surprised if another egm was on the cards - generally there is a time limit between calling egms (so you need to be very careful how you do it in the first place).

This rule is there to allow company boards to get on with running their business and not be continually disrupted from doing that.

I wouldn't know Sin. Just responding to the letter posted on the previous page of this thread. What I do believe though is that the WRU chief exec needs to go now, along with the rest of his cronies.

According to Scarlet Fever, the letter came from St Illtyds RFC in Cardiff.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:According to Scarlet Fever, the letter came from St Illtyds RFC in Cardiff.

Let's not add Catholics to the Welsh rugby equation ffs.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:According to Scarlet Fever, the letter came from St Illtyds RFC in Cardiff.

Let's not add Catholics to the Welsh rugby equation ffs.

Crud, we dont need sectarianism on top of this squabble! That would make things pale into insignificance to say the least  

Blydi tribal enough in Wales without arguing over creed! It's bad enough they let Jacks out amongst the general population  

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:According to Scarlet Fever, the letter came from St Illtyds RFC in Cardiff.

Let's not add Catholics to the Welsh rugby equation ffs.

Crud, we dont need sectarianism on top of this squabble! That would make things pale into insignificance to say the least  

Blydi tribal enough in Wales without arguing over creed! It's bad enough they let Jacks out amongst the general population  

Bonfire night though soon down our way when it's ok to burn a Catholic apparently.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

No9 wrote:

I can't disagree with international results since 2005, but there's no evidence that it was Bourne out of the regional setup. It is more likely to be the coming through of good talented players at that period.

I disagree. Pooling the players into 5 then 4 teams worked wonders. Special mention for the Ospreys who supplied 13 of the 15 starters against England at Twickers in 2008. Mark Jones and Nugget being the non Os. What a game that was! England 19-26 Wales;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7215056.stm

I remember the game and the Slam that followed... But what evidence ties this result to the benefits of regional rugby and not simply down to some very talented players who clicked that day, which gave them belief for the rest of the tournament. The fact that 13 of them played for the Ospreys, isn't a scientific tie back to the win being from the development of Regions. Just, that one region had the better players at the time.

I'm not saying that regions haven't developed the players, I'm simply saying there is no evidence one way or the other. But what is evident is that the money men of the RRW and the egos of the WRU have to be brought into cheque before their fighting brings the death of the game in Wales.

My concern is if a legend like Gerald Davies fails to get both parties to see sense, I haven't a clue where we go next.

Cardiff Dave wrote: a certain so-and-so is calling another certain so-and-so, a turd.

Not good enough, Dave!!! Let's be havin' 'em! Names.

Moffett and Lewis. 

So, Mondays 4pm deadline is past. Anymore deadlines before Fridays deadline? and is Fridays deadline the deadline, or are there more deadlines to come?

Robin Davy was tweeting that an agreement is close, and in favour of RRW! 

However.....

Simon Thomas disagrees.  He is tweeting he was told, by a leading RRW figure yesterday evening, that the RRW are now focused on survival.

I have heard that the Money men have had enough and want out.

Allty wrote:I have heard that the Money men have had enough and want out.

That is fully understandable, I think I would be the same if I had been pumping in my own cash to try and prop up a company that is only really there to support another company (which are making profit).

Although, I am not too sure how true the talk of the money men wanting out is. I really hope it is not true as that will signal the end of the regions.

If the regions did fold then I wouldn't be surprised to see the WRU facing lawsuits from other Pro12 nations.

I mean, what are they gonna do if the regions go down? Enter 4 new teams in the Pro12 who are basically the same teams, same stadiums, different ownership? Thats going to go down like a cup of cold urine with the regional fans.

Probably will an 'aw. If they don't they'll be very vulnerable to aforementioned lawsuits.

When is the real D-day?
If agreement isn't reached and the RRW prepare to go it without the WRU funding, when do they have to start releasing players from contracts.

They cannot afford the current squads without WRU assistance, think I read first Champions Cup monies is paid in Oct, so how long can the regions fund the current squads?

If it came to it, and the regions all had to release players, to have the around a £1million salary cap they could afford, it would take them years and years to recover, and build the squads up again, even with better funding from the WRU.

I think if the owners could get close to covering their losses they would probably walk, but I don't think the WRU can afford to buy them out at that price. They have no money in the pot now, certainly not that much, and so would have to take out a loan, which in turn scuppers their chances of paying the MS debt as quickly as they would like.

Edit: On the other hand, if WRU had someone lined up to pay for MS naming rights then who knows?

Kingshu wrote:When is the real D-day?
If agreement isn't reached and the RRW prepare to go it without the WRU funding, when do they have to start releasing players from contracts

That was 17 days ago, the region have been running this month without union assistance. I am not too sure if what that means to TV deal for the Rabo. Maybe RRW are going to try and sell their games (which WRU used to sell to BBC and S4C) themselves, which will reduce the amount that are down from last season. Also I think they have been well aware of the possibility of this situation, and against popular belief, started to cut their cloth over the summer (Warburton, 1/2p, A Jones, Hibbard, I Evans, Davies etc gone).

I guess the first day of the season would be real deadline day, could the Regions refuse to fulfill fixtures if still no agreement is reached?

I think the deadline has to be when the money runs out for the first Region, and according to one article, some Regions are close to going to the wall now. Without WRU financial support, cash flow is going to be a serious issue, and with the ongoing conflict between the Regions and WRU,so is their credibility at the Bank.

Munchkin wrote:I think if the owners could get close to covering their losses they would probably walk, but I don't think the WRU can afford to buy them out at that price. They have no money in the pot now, certainly not that much, and so would have to take out a loan, which in turn scuppers their chances of paying the MS debt as quickly as they would like.

Edit: On the other hand, if WRU had someone lined up to pay for MS naming rights then who knows?

Why would anyone pay anything for the regions. They are all insolvent really and loss making. On paper they are worth nothing. When you buy a company you don't pay enough to cover the previous owners debts, what if they were from poor business decisions like moving to Cardiff City Stadium for instance. In fact Cardiff Blues doesn't even exist other than as a dormant company, Cardiff Blues Ltd. All the 'Blues' trading goes through Cardiff RFC. They have huge historic debts which are nothing to do with regional rugby, how would you separate that out?

Munchkin wrote:I think the deadline has to be when the money runs out for the first Region, and according to one article, some Regions are close to going to the wall now. Without WRU financial support, cash flow is going to be a serious issue, and with the ongoing conflict between the Regions and WRU,so is their credibility at the Bank.

I think without WRU money it will all be over very quickly. When the Euro money cheque didn't arrive they were in a state of panic. The regions claim that they are independent businesses doesn't really hold any water when they rely on WRU money so much.

Fact is, as the PWC report, said they both need to work together in a partnership.

Stephen Jones - Sunday Times Article

Some of the four Welsh regional teams will run out of money at the end of July, after the latest (and apparently most poisonous) hiatus in negotiations between the regions and the Welsh Rugby Union on a new participation agreement - the old one ran out at the end of June, and with it funding from the Union to the regions

The latest painful twist of what Regional Rugby Wales called “an indescribably tortuous process.” throws into jeopardy the existence, let alone the profitability, of the Welsh professional game, could lead to a fire sale of leading players (the regions’ chief asset). It would mean that Welsh captain Sam Warburton and any other centrally contracted players would have to leave the country to play club rugby of a decent standard.

Ultimately, the lack of an agreement would also restricts access to the players employed by the regions – meaning that Warren Gatland would be without half a squad at least for the fourth Test match of the 2014 Autumn series, – match to which IRB regulations on player release do not apply. Already, we understand that the regions have been forced to deny access to their players for some WRU marketing days. The regions will not interfere with Wales preparations for the Commonwealth Games sevens in a fortnight, even though employ most of the squad

This is all after an 11th hour breakdown in negotiations over release of players, academies, dual contract of top players, control of club competitions and core funding from the Union to the clubs. RRW, believing that the deal was at long last imminent, were even making arrangements for a media conference in the near future heralding a new agreement

We understand that the core sum made available to them is £6.7m (the same as in the previous deal) but with the WRU adding £2m more for potential dual-contracts for a range of elite players – for example, Alex Cuthbert, Gethin Jenkins, Toby Faletau and others. RRW, while disappointed that the basic funding had not risen since the old agreement six years ago, believed that a deal had been done on the money, and other aspects - notably to restrict Welsh squad players to 31 games a year, 13 Test and up to 18 club games.

We understand that Gatland himself, after personally sitting in over 10 hours of meetings, was apparently happy at all aspects and that one RRW delegate professed himself “really thrilled” at the outcome.

There has also been further optimism with extra funding of around £700000 per region per season from the new European tournament, plus the arrival of Guinness and as the title sponsor and Sky Sports as lead broadcaster, and for the Pro-12 League.

And then, on Thursday evening, the WRU sent to RRW their latest “mark-up”, a massive document setting out the latest situation as they saw it. This document incensed RRW, with one senior figure in the organisation claiming that the WRU had “changed seven key items."

Now, RRW believe that there is no future in further talks until, as they told us, the WRU “ agree what they have already agreed.” For their part, the WRU deny that changes to the document are significant, and there are WRU insiders who claim that RRW’s recall of meetings and note taking is fallible. It is an accusation reciprocated.

The main contention of RRW is that whereas the £6.7m was meant to be ring-fenced and to be for their own use, the agreements they received on Thursday indicate that they will have to dip into it to pay for sevens programme and other incidentals. They also say that the agreements made in the Gatland meeting are not reflected in the document

We understand that the WRU accept that certain modifications of a minor nature were made, chiefly in legal terminology, and also that they are “mystified” by the assertion that the agreements made in the Gatland meetings have been changed.

What is the next move? I firmly believe following investigations yesterday that the RRW anger is real, not sabre-rattling. “We have some very successful businessmen on the boards of the four regions,” said a leading figure in RRW. “They are now going to have to make big decisions on the businesses, and whether they can sustain them or not.”

Some in the WRU believe that the regions have “demonised” them. Sources in RRW believe that the WRU have tried to dominate them. “How can we be expected to work with these people in the future?” Meanwhile, with the new season approaching, sponsors, television companies, rank-and-file followers and the elite players themselves, as frustrated beyond measure.

Rugby historians will remember that exactly the same stand-off between union and clubs has happened before, with the RFU and England clubs battling for control and self-determination. But that was almost two decades ago, since when the RFU has considerably reduced its old paternalistic attitudes, and found a rapport with the major clubs which, if not always sunny, has led to a boom in professional domestic rugby in England. On this count, Wales now lags nearly 20 years behind.

The hole at the centre of Welsh rugby now appears to be massive. The WRU has established a gleaming training headquarters for their national teams which leads the world in terms of sport science and preparation culture, and a complex for which the England coaches for one would die.

But this can only add on the extra few percentage points needed to win the really rarefied games. This Welsh system in itself cannot produce proper international rugby players. That can only be done on the field of play, in live action, by real and powerful rugby regions. Without powerful regions, the national team is also doomed

The only remaining impetus for agreement appears to lie in the vision of the sporting horror now looming - the collapse of the Welsh domestic professional game

doctornickolas wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I think the deadline has to be when the money runs out for the first Region, and according to one article, some Regions are close to going to the wall now. Without WRU financial support, cash flow is going to be a serious issue, and with the ongoing conflict between the Regions and WRU,so is their credibility at the Bank.

I think without WRU money it will all be over very quickly. When the Euro money cheque didn't arrive they were in a state of panic. The regions claim that they are independent businesses doesn't really hold any water when they rely on WRU money so much.

Fact is, as the PWC report, said they both need to work together in a partnership.

The WRU pay for a service and a good deal they've had up to now. Listen to Paul Turner's views on the PA. Also it's not surprising that the new deal, if there is to be one, will be entitled a Rugby Services Agreement (RSA).
Reckon the 4 will limp on in the meantime aided by the increased income from elsewhere and as for the PWC, well we really don't know much about that at all.

doctornickolas wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I think if the owners could get close to covering their losses they would probably walk, but I don't think the WRU can afford to buy them out at that price. They have no money in the pot now, certainly not that much, and so would have to take out a loan, which in turn scuppers their chances of paying the MS debt as quickly as they would like.

Edit: On the other hand, if WRU had someone lined up to pay for MS naming rights then who knows?

Why would anyone pay anything for the regions. They are all insolvent really and loss making. On paper they are worth nothing. When you buy a company you don't pay enough to cover the previous owners debts, what if they were from poor business decisions like moving to Cardiff City Stadium for instance. In fact Cardiff Blues doesn't even exist other than as a dormant company, Cardiff Blues Ltd. All the 'Blues' trading goes through Cardiff RFC. They have huge historic debts which are nothing to do with regional rugby, how would you separate that out?

We were told it was a "rugby decision" to move to CCS.

Allty wrote:I have heard that the Money men have had enough and want out.

I've reached the point where I wouldn't blame them if they decided to naff off.

So could the Regions refuse to fulfill fixtures as way of a bargaining tool?

bedfordwelsh wrote:So could the Regions refuse to fulfill fixtures as way of a bargaining tool?

I guess if there is no contract in place for them to be involved then yes, but likewise the union could threaten to pull them out totally (an take the fine off the other unions) as a bargaining tool too

Just another piece of the f*****g mess we are in then.

I know these things often are sorted last minute because no-one wants to give in but it's getting daft now. It's got to have an impact on everything else, good job Guinness came on board with this uncertainty, shows they're very interested in the product. Hopefully it'll all be sorted with long term agreements in place that work for everyone. And then they can get to work in the Middle East and sort that one out.

Think the middle east is easier than this mess

This whole mess has got to the point now that part of me just wants the union to kill the regions off, and the national team go belly up, just so that I can move on from Rugby and take up another hobby. As this farce has turned one of the few things I really enjoy in life into one of the most annoying things I have to contend with.

http://waleseye.com/post/91993578336/the-endgame

The regions thought they had a new six-year deal last week, only for the whole painful process to collapse.

Once again, the falling-out was followed by the tedious exchange of press releases.

The regions talked of an “indescribably tortuous process of endless telephone calls and meetings.”

The WRU put out a statement saying they would not respond.

The non-response included an accusation that the regions were "emotionally charged."

Wales Eye understand that both sides believed they had agreed a deal at the end of last month and shook hands on it.

It would have given Wales coach Warren Gatland free rein to gather his international players, and in return the regions would receive an extra £2 million a year on top of the £6.7 million.
Apart from better for the Wales team under Mr Gatland, the extra cash would, in effect, have been a refund - as the top Wales players were to be given central contracts, funded by the WRU, so saving the regions from having to pay them from their own funds.

But the deal collapsed because the WRU would not commit in writing to ring-fencing the extra money.

Instead of being totally guaranteed for each of the six years, close scrutiny of the union’s amendments to a document made it clear the money could conceivably be clawed back through other means and only be paid if the union felt they could afford it.




Well that says it all, "here you are, we will give you an extra £2m a year, cough but we might not bother next year cough"

Disgraceful Union. They have set Welsh rugby back 10 years.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Disgraceful Union. They have set Welsh rugby back 10 years.

Ah but the new boxes at the stadium look pretty, and the new pitch will be ultra useful, oh and have you heard the MS debt is dropping like a stone....

ESPN are reporting that among the topics Gatland was discussing with the regions was how many Welsh players are fielded in any match day squad. According to the report (link below) the regions want 5 and Gatland has managed to negotiate them to 8.

http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/234091.html?CMP=OTC-RSS

Now am I the only one who believes this is pure madness? We not only are selling current pro welsh players down the river here as well as the youth of tomorrow in my opinion. With no overseas quota the regions could barely end up with any welsh contingent in it at all. Further more are these imports monitored? This sounds to me as if they are just trying to keep salaries honest in wales again because they will be able to say to players "I'm not paying you that when I can get a S15 player for half that".

I fail to see how that is progress for professional rugby in anyway. I already think talent in wales often lacks game time at regional rugby and with these plans we may as well pack up the academies now as they will just be heading to English clubs to get some rugby.

BTW that 8 includes 2 non qualified residency based players. So basically in theory you could be looking at a total of 24 players actually getting into regional starting squads. That's just insane and will almost certainly weaken welsh rugby internationally.

A disgrace - you may as well just pin a notice on every youth team in the country saying "Enjoy it because you will never play pro rugby"

Worst part is with 10 non welsh players in their side I still fail to see them being any more successful than they are now. Who on earth thinks this stuff up?

There is no quota on the number of English players at English clubs. Yet the average is more than 70% are English. There is a financial incentive to have at least 65% but those straining at the salary cap won't care about that but still have the numbers.

Do you really think so little of your system that the Welsh players coming through won't be better than SH journeymen not good enough for France?

It's a negotiation ploy. You want more Welsh players you can pay for it (because it does drive wages up and therefore the costs.

Welshmushroom wrote:BTW that 8 includes 2 non qualified residency based players.  So basically in theory you could be looking at a total of 24 players actually getting into regional starting squads.  That's just insane and will almost certainly weaken welsh rugby internationally.  

A disgrace - you may as well just pin a notice on every youth team in the country saying "Enjoy it because you will never play pro rugby"  

Worst part is with 10 non welsh players in their side I still fail to see them being any more successful than they are now.  Who on earth thinks this stuff up?

That's what the limit was up until last season, or the season before 6 (+2), realistically that will not be every game, and that will not be all of them starting either.

Scarlets I think the suggestion is that the regions want a new limit of 15 NWQ players in each match day squad. The 6 + 2 here is the minimum number of Welsh players they can play, and the 2 are players who will qualify on residency.

This is madness from RRW. That is as impossible a demand as some of those demands made by the WRU. Both sides are setting red lines on issues that the other simply can't do their job if they compromise on.

The regions can't live with the low level of compensation for player release, the timing of the fourth test, the patrician way the Union conducts its business with the regions etc. But the Union can't live with the regions allowing player drain because they can't compete (I know this links back to Union under-investment) and they can't live with the prospect of having match day squads for regions with less than 50% Welshmen. Not with the talent that exists in Wales.

The 6+2 Welsh players was actually the level agreed by Gatland. The Regions wanted 5 (or up to 18 NWQ players per match day sqaud).

Unless there's been a miscommunication (no quotes on this bit). But as I said, there are no limits on the English clubs and they're 70% English. Welsh players coming through a good system will be cheaper and trained the way you want them to be.

"The regions reportedly wanted to have up to 10 foreign players in their team, meaning on any given weekend of Guinness PRO12 rugby there could be just 20 Welsh players in action.
Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/wales/rugby/story/234091.html#6SXdJ3Bku0fLjXwd.99"

I am getting really confused with everyones numbers here. We used to have 6+2, asked for 10, looks to be settled at 8 (6+2). Even if the limit was 10 NWQs as asked for that would be 13 WQ a week for each region, and a total of 52 WQ a week.

It looks like miscomunication. It was 10 NWQ in the squad which means as low as 5 WQ starting. That became a WQ quota of 5 in the squad.

The previous agreement was 6+2 become 6 by now I think (or 4+2, can't remember). The regions wanted it to go up to 10, but they settled on staying the same. I wish they got rid of the +2, it's just distasteful.

Yes, I agree with that. I don't like it when Ireland do it either.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:"The regions reportedly wanted to have up to 10 foreign players in their team, meaning on any given weekend of Guinness PRO12 rugby there could be just 20 Welsh players in action.
Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/wales/rugby/story/234091.html#6SXdJ3Bku0fLjXwd.99"

I am getting really confused with everyones numbers here.  We used to have 6+2, asked for 10, looks to be settled at 8 (6+2).  Even if the limit was 10 NWQs as asked for that would be 13 WQ a week for each region, and a total of 52 WQ a week.

"According to WalesOnline"; first line, second paragraph. MEH!!!
Haven't read the Fail's version as i'd rather not visit that place, but it does sound to me as though 10=8+2. So 2 extra NWQs. Sounds reasonable to me.

HammerofThunor wrote:The 6+2 Welsh players was actually the level agreed by Gatland. The Regions wanted 5 (or up to 18 NWQ players per match day sqaud).

Unless there's been a miscommunication (no quotes on this bit). But as I said, there are no limits on the English clubs and they're 70% English. Welsh players coming through a good system will be cheaper and trained the way you want them to be.

Aye, but the English have a policy of not picking players based outside England. Over our side of the bridge, we call this type of thing "Gatland's Law". Never really been implemented though which is a shame.

Welshmushroom wrote:ESPN are reporting that among the topics Gatland was discussing with the regions was how many Welsh players are fielded in any match day squad.  According to the report (link below) the regions want 5 and Gatland has managed to negotiate them to 8.  

http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/234091.html?CMP=OTC-RSS

Now am I the only one who believes this is pure madness?  We not only are selling current pro welsh players down the river here as well as the youth of tomorrow in my opinion.  With no overseas quota the regions could barely end up with any welsh contingent in it at all.  Further more are these imports monitored?  This sounds to me as if they are just trying to keep salaries honest in wales again because they will be able to say to players "I'm not paying you that when I can get a S15 player for half that".

I fail to see how that is progress for professional rugby in anyway.  I already think talent in wales often lacks game time at regional rugby and with these plans we may as well pack up the academies now as they will just be heading to English clubs to get some rugby.  

Cardiff would still continue to develop and employ Welsh players as they always have done. What would YOUR region do WM coz you seem very concerned and have tarred all 4 with the same brush?

Welshmushroom wrote:ESPN are reporting that among the topics Gatland was discussing with the regions was how many Welsh players are fielded in any match day squad.  According to the report (link below) the regions want 5 and Gatland has managed to negotiate them to 8.  

http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/234091.html?CMP=OTC-RSS

Now am I the only one who believes this is pure madness?  We not only are selling current pro welsh players down the river here as well as the youth of tomorrow in my opinion.  With no overseas quota the regions could barely end up with any welsh contingent in it at all.  Further more are these imports monitored?  This sounds to me as if they are just trying to keep salaries honest in wales again because they will be able to say to players "I'm not paying you that when I can get a S15 player for half that".

I fail to see how that is progress for professional rugby in anyway.  I already think talent in wales often lacks game time at regional rugby and with these plans we may as well pack up the academies now as they will just be heading to English clubs to get some rugby.  

Glad you mentioned "salaries" WM.
What d'you reckon has happened in the past with regards to the 4 attempting to satisfy the WQ quota?

Just a bit of run, what is the best Nwq team your side has had (regional time only)

15 - Iongi
14 - Havili'i
13 - Finau
12 - King
11 - Lamont
10 - Hercus
9 - Mertens

1 - Manu
2 - Schwalger
3 - Adriaanse
4 - Earle
5 - Snyman
6 - Lyons
7 - Barclay
8 - Morgan

Bar Iongi all have given their all to us when they were here

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just a bit of run, what is the best Nwq team your side has had (regional time only)

My Cardiff computer says no. I'll reboot.
Still says no?