Whats Going On In Wales Part 3

by geoff998rugby Tue 10 Jun 2014, 11:01 am

First topic message reminder :

Understand but if the EGM had gone a certain way his position would have been untenable.

Thats not going to happen now.

Did I hear correctly that a joint statement is due by WRU and RRW concerrning central/joint contracts.
Also heard something about an East/West split within RRW but they may be just groundless gossip

by Sin é Mon 18 Aug 2014, 6:33 pm

If the SRU can afford to run two, so could the WRU - both similar debt situations (although the SRU earns considerably less than the WRU).

by Cardiff Dave Mon 18 Aug 2014, 6:38 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:So we are still at starting point one - the Regions need the WRU to function, however the WRU don't need the Regions, they need sides to represent Wales in the league and cups and to develop players for the international stage; I think they would "like" that to be the Regions but they dont "need" to be them.

The whole forking thing is a complete shambles from both sides and is going to have (probably already is) on the whole future of rugby in Wales - at a point when Cardiff City are bouyant despite relegation, Swansea are more than holding their own in the Premier League and Welsh athletes and para athletes are getting lots of publicity for some great performances, Welsh rugby is on the verge of dissappearing up its own fundament.

Looks like it and those skeletons in the closet still don't want to come out and spill the beans. Head in hands smiley for the rest of your post.

by Cardiff Dave Mon 18 Aug 2014, 6:59 pm

Sin é wrote:If the SRU can afford to run two, so could the WRU - both similar debt situations (although the SRU earns considerably less than the WRU).

Although the SRU "rested" 5 or 6 of their top players after the 6Ns prior to the last WC. Meaning they didn't feature in many of the latter Pro12 games. Not good for our league if the Welsh follow suit.

by Cardiff Dave Mon 18 Aug 2014, 7:25 pm

Sin é wrote:They don't need four regions though - could probably afford to run 2.

There's only one region in Wales though and it happens to be called Wales surprisingly enough. Simon Schama mun! Lookout!

by Seagultaf Mon 18 Aug 2014, 8:01 pm

It's the Regions that produce the players that the WRU go on to use to generate their turnover, profit and the bonuses for Lewis and Pickering. Without this generation of great players produced since the formation of the Regions, Wales would not have such a successful side.

Without top level professional rugby in Wales, how many George Norths and Leigh Halfpennys would not have taken up the oval ball game? And if they had how many would have been picked up under Rugby Scholarships, to play for the top English and French sides and after 3 years they would be eligible (and no doubt under pressure from their employers) to play for their new country of residence.

Without the Regions the WRU would lose the TV and competition moneys generated from the Regional game. Would they then get the same level of access to the players who remained loyal to the land of their birth. Or would we see a similar picture as other rugby minnows such as Fiji and Argentina, whose players relinquish the right to turn out for their country when they sign up to professional contracts in other countries?

Wales needs successful Regions and a successful national side and they are interdependent, the WRU bigwigs probably do not yet realise it but they rely on the Regions for their jobs and their success.

by Stone Motif Mon 18 Aug 2014, 8:36 pm

Sin é wrote:If the SRU can afford to run two, so could the WRU - both similar debt situations (although the SRU earns considerably less than the WRU).

They at least had the sense not to tell a major corporate investor not to Bugger Themselves when they wanted to name their stadium

by Steffan Mon 18 Aug 2014, 8:51 pm

3 regions would be good. A west, an east and a north. That's would I would like to see happen if the WRU decided to bring regional rugby to Wales. We live in hope

by Sin é Mon 18 Aug 2014, 9:00 pm

Seagultaf wrote:It's the Regions that produce the players that the WRU go on to use to generate their turnover, profit and the bonuses for Lewis and Pickering. Without this generation of great players produced since the formation of the Regions, Wales would not have such a successful side.

Without top level professional rugby in Wales, how many George Norths and Leigh Halfpennys would not have taken up the oval ball game? And if they had how many would have been picked up under Rugby Scholarships, to play for the top English and French sides and after 3 years they would be eligible (and no doubt under pressure from their employers) to play for their new country of residence.

Without the Regions the WRU would lose the TV and competition moneys generated from the Regional game. Would they then get the same level of access to the players who remained loyal to the land of their birth. Or would we see a similar picture as other rugby minnows such as Fiji and Argentina, whose players relinquish the right to turn out for their country when they sign up to professional contracts in other countries?

Wales needs successful Regions and a successful national side and they are interdependent, the WRU bigwigs probably do not yet realise it but they rely on the Regions for their jobs and their success.

In the case of George North, I'd say it was his school or amateur club that developed him bearing in mind he was about 17 when he was capped internationally and he had played about 2 games for the Scarlets before that.

Shane Williams, stephen Jones (and Hensen) probably did more to promote rugby in Wales than anything the regions did - and they were there pre-regions. Wasn't Alex Cuthbert a 7s player paid a pittance by the WRU when he was first capped. Cardiff were getting him on the cheap.

Most of the Welsh players don't really care about the Regions. They do care about the Welsh national team and so it is highly unlikely that they will turn their backs on Wales even with the French / English scholarships.

by Sin é Mon 18 Aug 2014, 9:04 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
Sin é wrote:If the SRU can afford to run two, so could the WRU - both similar debt situations (although the SRU earns considerably less than the WRU).

They at least had the sense not to tell a major corporate investor not to Bugger Themselves when they wanted to name their stadium

The Millenium Stadium sponsorship is worth a heck of a lot more than 20m as they have a lot more games there and will be hosting world cup games. The IRFU got double that for the Aviva and I'd say the Millenium Stadium would be worth more than what they got. BT were trying to screw them.

by bedfordwelsh Mon 18 Aug 2014, 9:46 pm

Plus its not just the rugby that the MS holds, they have concerts, speedway,football. All would have been excellent source of promotion for whoever sponsored it.

by Steffan Mon 18 Aug 2014, 10:15 pm

The WRU should try going regional. That will bring back the crowds

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 19 Aug 2014, 9:31 am

Steffan wrote:The WRU should try going regional. That will bring back the crowds

(both of us with that btw). If we had four regions based on geographical area, then we would have West (Scarlet), East (Blues), North (Dragons, relocated), and South (Ospreys), so realistically the sides would be the same. Also they would need to be based where the quality stadia and population centres of their geographic area are, so west would be Llanelli, South would be Swansea, and East would be Cardiff. Unless you decided to go the other way and base the West in Milford Haven or Aberwysyth (proper west), for example, which would have no transport links, and no decent stadia, oh and a population of sod all and even less able to afford to attend games regularly. Same could be done for the South, East and North etc. That would lead to the death of the game within a season or two.

by Chunky Norwich Tue 19 Aug 2014, 9:36 am

Sin é wrote:

In the case of George North, I'd say it was his school or amateur club that developed him bearing in mind he was about 17 when he was capped internationally and he had played about 2 games for the Scarlets before that.

Shane Williams, stephen Jones (and Hensen) probably did more to promote rugby in Wales than anything the regions did - and they were there pre-regions. Wasn't Alex Cuthbert a 7s player paid a pittance by the WRU when he was first capped. Cardiff were getting him on the cheap.

Most of the Welsh players don't really care about the Regions. They do care about the Welsh national team and so it is highly unlikely that they will turn their backs on Wales even with the French / English scholarships.

This is one of the funniest posts I've ever read.

It is absolutely atypical of the Irish mindset. And especially regarding the Welsh rugby climate, of which they are ever so keen to butt their tinker noses in to, but evidently don't have a scooby do about.

UNIONS forever!!!!!!!!!! Down with independent rugby!!!!!!

Hilarious.

by Sin é Tue 19 Aug 2014, 9:46 am

Chunky, facts, not mindset. George North was 17/18 when he was capped for Wales. How much development work did Scarlets do for him? Did he play rugby in school or an amateur club?

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 19 Aug 2014, 9:51 am

Sin, some facts, some total cods. The theory that players don't care about regional rugby is totally of the mark and has not fact behind it at all.

I know of a regional player who was so distraught at losing a game last minute, because he is a regional fan first and player second, that he locked himself in the cubicle in the changing rooms and had to have his father talk him out of there. No IMO that is a fact that proves, your opinion in correct.

by Chunky Norwich Tue 19 Aug 2014, 9:59 am

Sin é wrote:Chunky, facts, not mindset. George North was 17/18 when he was capped for Wales. How much development work did Scarlets do for him? Did he play rugby in school or an amateur club?

He played for Llandovery college. Was earmarked by Gareth jenkins (scarlets head of recruitment) as a potential world star, fast-tracked to Llandovery RFC (a Scarlets feeder club), promoted to Scarlets pre season and plucked off by Wales.

Yes, this proves that there is no place in rugby for independent businesses.

by **George Carlin** Tue 19 Aug 2014, 10:13 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:Chunky, facts, not mindset. George North was 17/18 when he was capped for Wales. How much development work did Scarlets do for him? Did he play rugby in school or an amateur club?

He played for Llandovery college. Was earmarked by Gareth jenkins (scarlets head of recruitment) as a potential world star, fast-tracked to Llandovery RFC (a Scarlets feeder club), promoted to Scarlets pre season and plucked off by Wales.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 19 Aug 2014, 10:35 am

Stone Motif wrote:
Sin é wrote:If the SRU can afford to run two, so could the WRU - both similar debt situations (although the SRU earns considerably less than the WRU).

They at least had the sense not to tell a major corporate investor not to Bugger Themselves when they wanted to name their stadium

I really wouldn't look to the SRU or Scottish rugby for any template beyond what not to do. Even within the confines of the system creates, we have managed to mismanage matters with dreadful selection of personnel to run our two professional clubs and international side, poor signings of overseas players and at times laughable team selection (particularly at international level).

1.Dell 2.Ford 3.Nel 4.Gilchrist 5.Bresler 6.Coman 7.Du Preez 8.Denton 9.Hart 10.Bezuidenhout 11.Visser 12.Strauss 13.Beard 14.Fife 15.Cuthbert

If you are wondering what that is, it is a highly possible Edinburgh 1st XV next season, and in it are 8 players who cannot play for Scotland. There are other NSQ players in the squad, but the above is genuinely a possible 1st XV. The also play in front of about 3,500 people on average, at Murrayfield. The only thing that generates any sort of atmosphere is (a) the weather, and (b) the away fans, Munster in particular.

We have two professional sides and, when you add the NSQ players at Glasgow to those above (De Klerk, Naka, Strauss, Matawalu and DTH), roughly half of the players regularly featuring for the Scottish pro sides could be NSQ.

It is not hard to see why Scotland, at international level, is not competing well in the 6 Nations. Scottish players do not have enough opportunity to get into professional rugby. Look at our representation in the Lions over the last few tours. Even setting aside tolkenism of previous generations (you know of what I speak Peter Wright), we are now lucky to get more than a couple of players in the touring squad, let alone the Test side, and yet only as far back as 1997 did Scots play a key role in a series win, getting into the side on merit (any arguments that Smith, Townsend and Tait didn't deserve their place in 1997? Weir was also going like a train up until his injury and Wainwright also played a role on that tour).

I really don't mean to hijack a Welsh thread with Scottish rugby issues, but look long and hard at the state of our national side before casting your eye north for any sort of guidance as to what to do.

by Chunky Norwich Tue 19 Aug 2014, 10:43 am

Thanks for that FunnyExiledScot. Good post.

Kind of pours water on the whole "Let the Union run the show" agenda.

by Sin é Tue 19 Aug 2014, 10:54 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:Thanks for that FunnyExiledScot. Good post.

Kind of pours water on the whole "Let the Union run the show" agenda.

No it doesn't. The IRFU is still the best run Union in the NH - no debt, owns a couple of redeveloped stadia, 3 successful pro teams and now the 4th being well supported, contenders for the Six Nations every year and capable of taking a SH international scalp and most importantly, keeping most its players in Ireland despite the temptations of French money.

by Sin é Tue 19 Aug 2014, 10:57 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:Chunky, facts, not mindset. George North was 17/18 when he was capped for Wales. How much development work did Scarlets do for him? Did he play rugby in school or an amateur club?

He played for Llandovery college. Was earmarked by Gareth jenkins (scarlets head of recruitment) as a potential world star, fast-tracked to Llandovery RFC (a Scarlets feeder club), promoted to Scarlets pre season and plucked off by Wales.

Yes, this proves that there is no place in rugby for independent businesses.

So, George North was developed by amateurs. Fair play to Gareth Jenkins for spotting him though.

by **George Carlin** Tue 19 Aug 2014, 11:10 am

Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Thanks for that FunnyExiledScot. Good post.

Kind of pours water on the whole "Let the Union run the show" agenda.

No it doesn't. The IRFU is still the best run Union in the NH - no debt, owns a couple of redeveloped stadia, 3 successful pro teams and now the 4th being well supported, contenders for the Six Nations every year and capable of taking a SH international scalp and most importantly, keeping most its players in Ireland despite the temptations of French money.

Whats Going On In Wales Part 3 - Page 12 Smug-910

by Irish Londoner Tue 19 Aug 2014, 11:11 am

What's the latest actual position between the WRU and Regions has there been any movement at all, given that we a couple of weeks from the season starting?

by Sin é Tue 19 Aug 2014, 11:15 am

George Carlin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Thanks for that FunnyExiledScot. Good post.

Kind of pours water on the whole "Let the Union run the show" agenda.

No it doesn't. The IRFU is still the best run Union in the NH - no debt, owns a couple of redeveloped stadia, 3 successful pro teams and now the 4th being well supported, contenders for the Six Nations every year and capable of taking a SH international scalp and most importantly, keeping most its players in Ireland despite the temptations of French money.

Did you read what I was responding to?

by **George Carlin** Tue 19 Aug 2014, 11:16 am

Sin é wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Thanks for that FunnyExiledScot. Good post.

Kind of pours water on the whole "Let the Union run the show" agenda.

No it doesn't. The IRFU is still the best run Union in the NH - no debt, owns a couple of redeveloped stadia, 3 successful pro teams and now the 4th being well supported, contenders for the Six Nations every year and capable of taking a SH international scalp and most importantly, keeping most its players in Ireland despite the temptations of French money.

Did you read what I was responding to?

I am not questioning the merit of what you wrote in the slightest.

I've just wanted to use that graphic for ages. Run

by Chunky Norwich Tue 19 Aug 2014, 11:20 am

Sin é wrote: The IRFU is still the best run Union in the NH - no debt, owns a couple of redeveloped stadia, 3 successful pro teams and now the 4th being well supported, contenders for the Six Nations every year and capable of taking a SH international scalp and most importantly, keeping most its players in Ireland despite the temptations of French money.

So one of it's provinces DOESN'T owe it 10m Euros?

by Sin é Tue 19 Aug 2014, 11:26 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote: The IRFU is still the best run Union in the NH - no debt, owns a couple of redeveloped stadia, 3 successful pro teams and now the 4th being well supported, contenders for the Six Nations every year and capable of taking a SH international scalp and most importantly, keeping most its players in Ireland despite the temptations of French money.

So one of it's provinces DOESN'T owe it 10m Euros?

Yea, thats right. The IRFU is owed 10m by one of its Provinces, Munster.

The Aviva Stadium company also owe the IRFU 35m Euro as well.

The IRFU is a very well run outfit. They are owed 45m euro as well as running very successful Provincial teams (not to mention the Ireland Ladies having a 100% win record against NZ. Wink

PS - Connacht got an extra 1 million euro this year.

by Chunky Norwich Tue 19 Aug 2014, 11:27 am

Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote: The IRFU is still the best run Union in the NH - no debt, owns a couple of redeveloped stadia, 3 successful pro teams and now the 4th being well supported, contenders for the Six Nations every year and capable of taking a SH international scalp and most importantly, keeping most its players in Ireland despite the temptations of French money.

So one of it's provinces DOESN'T owe it 10m Euros?

Yea, thats right. The IRFU is owned 10m by one of its Provinces, Munster.

The Aviva Stadium company also owe the IRFU 35m Euro as well.

The IRFU is a very well run outfit. They are owed 45m euro as well as running very successful Provincial teams (not to mention the Ireland Ladies having a 100% win record against NZ.

And Munster missed the £m's repayments due to the IRFU in April didn't they.

Oirish rugby is da model.

by St John The Enforcer Tue 19 Aug 2014, 11:31 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:It is absolutely atypical of the Irish mindset. And especially regarding the Welsh rugby climate, of which they are ever so keen to butt their tinker noses in to, but evidently don't have a scooby do about.

Interestingly, a guy on a Leinster blog just posted about considering a B&I League.

He probably hasn't a scooby do, but sure he tried.

Not sure he is from the travelling community though. Rugby would not be a big sport among Travellers

http://bluestalktv.wordpress.com/2014/08/19/a-welsh-solution-to-a-welsh-problem/

by Sin é Tue 19 Aug 2014, 11:32 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote: The IRFU is still the best run Union in the NH - no debt, owns a couple of redeveloped stadia, 3 successful pro teams and now the 4th being well supported, contenders for the Six Nations every year and capable of taking a SH international scalp and most importantly, keeping most its players in Ireland despite the temptations of French money.

So one of it's provinces DOESN'T owe it 10m Euros?

Yea, thats right. The IRFU is owned 10m by one of its Provinces, Munster.

The Aviva Stadium company also owe the IRFU 35m Euro as well.

The IRFU is a very well run outfit. They are owed 45m euro as well as running very successful Provincial teams (not to mention the Ireland Ladies having a 100% win record against NZ.

And Munster missed the £m's repayments due to the IRFU in April didn't they.

Oirish rugby is da model.

The loan has been restructured. It was a bit ambitious to think it would pay off its entire loan in 10 years to its parent company. Still, the IRFU have a 50% stake in Thomond Park and the restructed loan allows Munster to do ahead and redevelop its 2nd ground in Cork. Wink

by Chunky Norwich Tue 19 Aug 2014, 11:39 am

St John The Enforcer wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:It is absolutely atypical of the Irish mindset. And especially regarding the Welsh rugby climate, of which they are ever so keen to butt their tinker noses in to, but evidently don't have a scooby do about.

Interestingly, a guy on a Leinster blog just posted about considering a B&I League.

He probably hasn't a scooby do, but sure he tried.

Not sure he is from the travelling community though. Rugby would not be a big sport among Travellers

http://bluestalktv.wordpress.com/2014/08/19/a-welsh-solution-to-a-welsh-problem/

Interesting piece, but it fails to recognise any of the commercial problems the regions face due to being hamstrung by the celtic accord. That is part of the reason a new league would be nice. The Irish love to quote the old "They feel that playing v English teams week in week out would solve their issues with crowd size" - as if that's the only issue.

by Chunky Norwich Tue 19 Aug 2014, 11:40 am

Sin é wrote:

The loan has been restructured. It was a bit ambitious to think it would pay off its entire loan in 10 years to its parent company. Still, the IRFU have a 50% stake in Thomond Park and the restructed loan allows Munster to do ahead and redevelop its 2nd ground in Cork.

So why they set the deadline in the first place? I thought they were top of the class?

by Sin é Tue 19 Aug 2014, 11:53 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:

The loan has been restructured. It was a bit ambitious to think it would pay off its entire loan in 10 years to its parent company. Still, the IRFU have a 50% stake in Thomond Park and the restructed loan allows Munster to do ahead and redevelop its 2nd ground in Cork.

So why they set the deadline in the first place? I thought they were top of the class?

The loan agreement would have been made in 2006/07. In the meantime there has been a bit of an economic downturn or hadn't you noticed.

Munster Rugby are not the only people to have had to renegotiate loans over the last couple of years. You probably would not have noticed this because the Welsh Regions's business model is all about getting handouts.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 19 Aug 2014, 11:58 am

I actually don't think there's a right or wrong approach in terms of centralised union vs clubs.

I think each nation needs to find its own way and I don't think there's a one size fits all. Whichever option is selected through it needs to be run well, and that's where Scotland has historically got it so so wrong. The breakage in the links initially between the well supported club and creation of professional sides with barely any interest and chocked full of foreign journeymen cannot be a blueprint for success.

Ireland have made it work to a degree, I still have question marks over the level of debt in Irish rugby. I'm not saying it isn't at a serviceable level, I don't have enough insight into the finances and profit forecasts to make that judgment call, but whilst there has been a lot of investment there is also a lot of debt, and success on the field will need to be sustained with the new European rugby structure in order to service that. Taking security over stadia is all good and well, but is there any realistic possibility of enforcing that security? Who would they sell Thomond Park to? It sounds more like a paper exercise of shuffling around debt and security, but ultimately the equation comes down to money in versus money out (including interest on debt), and I remain to be completely convinced the IRFU has a complete handle on such matters.

That said, on the pitch it's hard to argue with the success Ireland have had. Munster, Leinster and Ulster have all been excellent over the last decade.

by Sin é Tue 19 Aug 2014, 12:13 pm

FES, the IRFU has no debt (and the Aviva is only about 3 years old)!

Business bio of Tom Grace, IRFU Hon. Treasurer.

Mr. Tom Grace was a Partner of PricewaterhouseCoopers until 2005, where Mr. Grace led its Insolvency Department since 1987. Mr. Grace worked in the audit division and management consultancy division, principally in the area of financial advice and has 34 years of experience at PricewaterhouseCoopers. Mr. Grace has been involved with a number of high profile receiverships and liquidations throughout his career and in 1998, was appointed by the High Court to investigate the affairs of National Irish Bank. Mr. Grace has been Senior Independent Director at Paddy Power plc since January 2009 and has been its Non-Executive Director since January 3, 2006. He is also well known as a former rugby international. He won 25 international rugby caps for Ireland between 1972 and 1978 and captained the side on eight occasions. Mr. Grace also toured as a British and Irish Lion in 1974.

by Chunky Norwich Tue 19 Aug 2014, 12:14 pm

Sin é wrote: The IRFU is still the best run Union in the NH - no debt

Has this been sorted now then? Or is that nothing to do with the Union, as they are the best in the NH?

The union has expressed its concern over a combined €24.6m bank debt spread across 102 clubs. Those clubs are paying €800,000 annually in interest alone.

[Irish independent, 2012]

by Stone Motif Tue 19 Aug 2014, 12:24 pm

Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:

The loan has been restructured. It was a bit ambitious to think it would pay off its entire loan in 10 years to its parent company. Still, the IRFU have a 50% stake in Thomond Park and the restructed loan allows Munster to do ahead and redevelop its 2nd ground in Cork.

So why they set the deadline in the first place? I thought they were top of the class?

The loan agreement would have been made in 2006/07. In the meantime there has been a bit of an economic downturn or hadn't you noticed.

Munster Rugby are not the only people to have had to renegotiate loans over the last couple of years. You probably would not have noticed this because the Welsh Regions's business model is all about getting handouts.

Oi'll remember dat next time Chairman Rog drops trou for a good shafting off our O'Celtic brethren in. the. best. interests of. Welsh. rugby.

by Sin é Tue 19 Aug 2014, 12:25 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote: The IRFU is still the best run Union in the NH - no debt

Has this been sorted now then? Or is that nothing to do with the Union, as they are the best in the NH?

The union has expressed its concern over a combined €24.6m bank debt spread across 102 clubs. Those clubs are paying €800,000 annually in interest alone.

[Irish independent, 2012]

Well, a couple of clubs went bust (like Blackrock) and have had to sort their finances out like not paying players and entering into ground shares.

The IRFU didn't borrow the money, so I don't know why you can blame them for this problem.
Good to see the IRFU highlighting the problem though.

by Chunky Norwich Tue 19 Aug 2014, 12:28 pm

Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote: The IRFU is still the best run Union in the NH - no debt

Has this been sorted now then? Or is that nothing to do with the Union, as they are the best in the NH?

The union has expressed its concern over a combined €24.6m bank debt spread across 102 clubs. Those clubs are paying €800,000 annually in interest alone.

[Irish independent, 2012]

Well, a couple of clubs went bust (like Blackrock) and have had to sort their finances out like not paying players and entering into ground shares.

The IRFU didn't borrow the money, so I don't know why you can blame them for this problem.
Good to see the IRFU highlighting the problem though.

So the IRFU doesn't support these clubs enough financially, and therefore can claim no negligence?

No wonder they're debt free then.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 19 Aug 2014, 12:34 pm

Sin é wrote:FES, the IRFU has no debt (and the Aviva is only about 3 years old)!

Well it does if you believe it's latest audited accounts (page 42 and footnote 11).

That wasn't what I was talking about though. I was referring to the debt within Irish rugby, and not simply sitting at parent company level.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 19 Aug 2014, 12:42 pm

Anyway - apologies to the Welsh, I don't mean to go off topic.

Suffice to say there are pitfalls whatever the solution you end up with. What you do have is a very talented group of players, huge and passionate support within the country for rugby and one of the best national stadiums in the world. Somehow there has to be a way of combining that into a successful domestic game.

by Sin é Tue 19 Aug 2014, 12:43 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote: The IRFU is still the best run Union in the NH - no debt

Has this been sorted now then? Or is that nothing to do with the Union, as they are the best in the NH?

The union has expressed its concern over a combined €24.6m bank debt spread across 102 clubs. Those clubs are paying €800,000 annually in interest alone.

[Irish independent, 2012]

Well, a couple of clubs went bust (like Blackrock) and have had to sort their finances out like not paying players and entering into ground shares.

The IRFU didn't borrow the money, so I don't know why you can blame them for this problem.
Good to see the IRFU highlighting the problem though.

So the IRFU doesn't support these clubs enough financially, and therefore can claim no negligence?

No wonder they're debt free then.

The IRFU doesn't do handouts to clubs who are going to waste the money anyway on massive ego trips buying in players and coaches.

It does provide infrastructure grants though.

by Chunky Norwich Tue 19 Aug 2014, 12:46 pm

Sin é wrote:

The IRFU doesn't do handouts to clubs who are going to waste the money anyway on massive ego trips buying in players and coaches.

It does provide infrastructure grants though.

Handouts are something you get for free.

by Irish Londoner Tue 19 Aug 2014, 12:52 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Anyway - apologies to the Welsh, I don't mean to go off topic.

Suffice to say there are pitfalls whatever the solution you end up with. What you do have is a very talented group of players, huge and passionate support within the country for rugby and one of the best national stadiums in the world. Somehow there has to be a way of combining that into a successful domestic game.

This a million times !

by Sin é Tue 19 Aug 2014, 12:53 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Sin é wrote:FES, the IRFU has no debt (and the Aviva is only about 3 years old)!

Well it does if you believe it's latest audited accounts (page 42 and footnote 11).

Sounds like a bank overdraft to cover cashflow. It states it will be repaid by

That wasn't what I was talking about though. I was referring to the debt within Irish rugby, and not simply sitting at parent company level.[/quote]

Balance at 30 April 2014 was 70,814,490 Euro (page 27).

The IRFU could bail the clubs out, but they would be wrong to do so.

(The WRU has 12m I think which the Regions want)!

by Sin é Tue 19 Aug 2014, 12:55 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:

The IRFU doesn't do handouts to clubs who are going to waste the money anyway on massive ego trips buying in players and coaches.

It does provide infrastructure grants though.

Handouts are something you get for free.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. Wink

by Chunky Norwich Tue 19 Aug 2014, 1:01 pm

Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:

The IRFU doesn't do handouts to clubs who are going to waste the money anyway on massive ego trips buying in players and coaches.

It does provide infrastructure grants though.

Handouts are something you get for free.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Exactly

by Chunky Norwich Tue 19 Aug 2014, 1:02 pm

Sin é wrote:

(The WRU has 12m I think which the Regions want)!

Where do you get this from?

by Sin é Tue 19 Aug 2014, 1:08 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:

(The WRU has 12m I think which the Regions want)!

Where do you get this from?

Comments from Welsh posters on various websites. Page 69 of the WRU Annual Report give the figure as 11,268m.

by Chunky Norwich Tue 19 Aug 2014, 1:16 pm

Sin é wrote:

Comments from Welsh posters on various websites. Page 69 of the WRU Annual Report give the figure as 11,268m.

I can't see any such figure on page 69. Are you taking that from the capital employed figure? That is not how much they have in the bank.

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