Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread IV

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

Historical Banter:

https://www.606v2.com/t48240-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread
https://www.606v2.com/t51313-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-ii
https://www.606v2.com/t53119-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-iii

A new thread for the 2014/5 season.

A. Edinburgh Rugby


1. Coaching Team

Alan Solomons - head coach
Stevie Scott -  assistant coach
Omar Mouneimne - assistant coach

2. Players In

Neil Cochrane from London Wasps
John Andress from Worcester Warriors
Rory Sutherland from Gala RFC
Tom Heathcote from Bath Rugby
Michael Tait from Newcastle Falcons
Fraser McKenzie from Newcastle Falcons
Phil Burleigh from the Highlanders
Anton Bresler from the Sharks
Brett Thompson from USA 7s

3. Players Out

Steven Lawrie retired
Alun Walker released
Alex Allan to Glasgow Warriors
Geoff Cross to London Irish
Lewis Niven released
Sean Cox to London Irish
Robert McAlpine released
Perry Parker to Rotherham Titans
Izak van der Westhuizen released
Ross Rennie to Bristol Rugby
Dimitri Basilaia released
Alex Black released
Greig Laidlaw to Gloucester Rugby
Chris Leck released
Piers Francis released
Gregor Hunter released
Harry Leonard to Leeds Carnegie
Ben Atiga retired
Ben Cairns retired
Nick De Luca to Biarritz Olympique
Lee Jones released
Aleki Lutui to Gloucester Rugby

4. Pre-season Fixtures

Leicester Tigers v Edinburgh
Saturday 23 August, 14:00
Welford Road

Edinburgh v Newcastle Falcons
Friday 29 August, 19:45
Mansfield Park, Hawick

B. Glasgow Warriors


1. Coaching Team

Gregor Townsend – Head Coach
Shade Munro – Forwards Coach
Matt Taylor – Defence Coach

2. Players In

Alex Allan from Edinburgh
Murray McConnell from Ayr RFC
Euan Murray from Worcester Warriors
James Downey from Munster
Rossouw de Klerk from the Cheetahs

3. Players Out

Moray Low to Exeter Chiefs
Chris Cusiter to Sale Sharks
Ruaridh Jackson to London Wasps
Ed Kalman retired
Byron McGuigan released
Finlay Gillies released
Scott Wight to Melrose RFC
Gabriel Ascárate released
Folau Niua released
Carlin Isles to USA 7s

4. Pre-season Fixtures

Glasgow Warriors v Harlequins
Saturday 23 August, 14:30
Scotstoun Stadium

London Scottish v Glasgow Warriors
Saturday 30 August, 15:00
Richmond Athletic Ground

[RDW]

That's Edinburgh confirmed the signing.

Suppose a winger makes sense given Visser is likely to be away a lot and Brown is injured. That leaves just Fife, Farndale and Hoyland for a lot of the season which is a bit light.

The guy has done his apprenticeship in the 7s and looks a big strong runner so should hopefully be an asset.

[RDW]

So as far as I am aware the finalised Edinburgh squad is as follows, with NSQ players highlighted:

LH - Dickinson, Dell, Blaauw, Sutherland
H - Ford, McInally, Hilterbrand, Cochrane, Turner
TH - Nel, Berghan, Andress, McQuillan
Lock - Gilchrist, Bresler, McKenzie, Atkins, Toolis, Toolis
6/8 - Denton, Du Preez, Leonardi, Coman, Ritchie
7 - Grant, Watson

9 - Hart, Kennedy, S-H-C
10 - Heathcoat, Tonks, Bezzy
12/13 - Scott, Burleigh, Strauss, Dominguez, Tait, Dean, Beard, Mclennan
Wing - Visser, Fife, Farndale, Hoyland, Thompson
15 - Cuthbert, Brown

47 players, 13 SQ (28%)

[reallybored]

What's the chat on Rory Sutherland?

Is he likely to be involved in 1st team next year?

[RDW]

What's the chat on Rory Sutherland?

Is he likely to be involved in 1st team next year?

I suspect he'll be 4th choice, but with Dickinson away with Scotland he's only 1 injury away from being selected, so I think he will get gametime.

Looking at the squad, we're well covered in some positions but it is very much quantity over quality, especially centre.

The 6/8 position is a bit light, especially with Denton away, and Leonardi and Coman have shown themselves to be OK, not great so far.

Scrum half and 2nd row (who would have thought it??) are very much positions of strength.

[VinceWLB]

I hope you meant 13 NSQ otherwise the facebook page would have errupted already   

Dell is out until october too, so it is quite likely we will see Sutherland very early on unless AS continue with his strategy of not using subs at all   

[nickj]

I agree RDW. That squad's still crying out for a top class 7 and a 13 IMO.

Was Thompson confirmed as being the last signing? I'm slightly surprised / disappointed if he was. I thought we'd just hit the jackpot with the BT sponsorship, so surely we could have afforded someone a bit better than a NSQ US 7's guy?

If that is the final squad, I really hope Dean and Watson get some good game time in particular, as that might just about vindicate letting Rennie and De Luca leave.

[RDW]

Given that 22 players have left and only 9 come in, you'd assume there would be spare cash, especially since Bresler and Burleigh are the only players that probably won't have come cheap.

Maybe Solomons is looking long term and saving some money for top class players, as opposed to a load of journeymen?

There also might be some business done at the end of the Currie/ITM cup etc.

[Majestic83]

Given that 22 players have left and only 9 come in, you'd assume there would be spare cash, especially since Bresler and Burleigh are the only players that probably won't have come cheap.

Maybe Solomons is looking long term and saving some money for top class players, as opposed to a load of journeymen?

There also might be some business done at the end of the Currie/ITM cup etc.

Would think there should be plenty of budget still with all the players released. Bressler would probably be the most expensive signing over the summer, don't think Burleigh would be massively expensive as the wasges he is on won't be that high.
If you add in the EDP players that will make a squad of around 60 but wouldn't expect too many of them to see any game time.

[Majestic83]

So as far as I am aware the finalised Edinburgh squad is as follows, with NSQ players highlighted:

LH - Dickinson, Dell, Blaauw, Sutherland
H - Ford, McInally, Hilterbrand, Cochrane, Turner
TH - Nel, Berghan, Andress, McQuillan
Lock - Gilchrist, Bresler, McKenzie, Atkins, Toolis, Toolis
6/8 - Denton, Du Preez, Leonardi, Coman, Ritchie
7 - Grant, Watson

9 - Hart, Kennedy, S-H-C
10 - Heathcoat, Tonks, Bezzy
12/13 - Scott, Burleigh, Strauss, Dominguez, Tait, Dean, Beard
Wing - Visser, Fife, Farndale, Hoyland, Thompson
15 - Cuthbert, Brown

46 players, 13 SQ (28%)

Just noticed one extra you have missed, nick mclennen who is Scottish qualified.

[RDW]

So as far as I am aware the finalised Edinburgh squad is as follows, with NSQ players highlighted:

LH - Dickinson, Dell, Blaauw, Sutherland
H - Ford, McInally, Hilterbrand, Cochrane, Turner
TH - Nel, Berghan, Andress, McQuillan
Lock - Gilchrist, Bresler, McKenzie, Atkins, Toolis, Toolis
6/8 - Denton, Du Preez, Leonardi, Coman, Ritchie
7 - Grant, Watson

9 - Hart, Kennedy, S-H-C
10 - Heathcoat, Tonks, Bezzy
12/13 - Scott, Burleigh, Strauss, Dominguez, Tait, Dean, Beard, Mclennan
Wing - Visser, Fife, Farndale, Hoyland, Thompson
15 - Cuthbert, Brown

46 players, 13 SQ (28%)

Just noticed one extra you have missed, nick mclennen who is Scottish qualified.

Well spotted - updated my post. He's classed as an 'outside back' but just chucked him in the centres.

He's suddenly grown two inches since he was signed too - he was 5ft 9 when he signed, he's now listed as 5ft 11!

[Majestic83]

So as far as I am aware the finalised Edinburgh squad is as follows, with NSQ players highlighted:

LH - Dickinson, Dell, Blaauw, Sutherland
H - Ford, McInally, Hilterbrand, Cochrane, Turner
TH - Nel, Berghan, Andress, McQuillan
Lock - Gilchrist, Bresler, McKenzie, Atkins, Toolis, Toolis
6/8 - Denton, Du Preez, Leonardi, Coman, Ritchie
7 - Grant, Watson

9 - Hart, Kennedy, S-H-C
10 - Heathcoat, Tonks, Bezzy
12/13 - Scott, Burleigh, Strauss, Dominguez, Tait, Dean, Beard, Mclennan
Wing - Visser, Fife, Farndale, Hoyland, Thompson
15 - Cuthbert, Brown

46 players, 13 SQ (28%)

Just noticed one extra you have missed, nick mclennen who is Scottish qualified.

Well spotted - updated my post. He's classed as an 'outside back' but just chucked him in the centres.

He's suddenly grown two inches since he was signed too - he was 5ft 9 when he signed, he's now listed as 5ft 11!

Amazing how that happens to some players that they suddenly find some magic growing beans. Think he has put on at least a stone in weight since he we have signed him.....saying that if he has been here for a month and he has adapted to the scottish diet then that is possible!

[RDW]

Stats given in press release when he signed:

Nick McLennan (25), outside back
Height: 5ft 9in (1.8m), weight: 14st (89kg)

Stats on the ER website

Height: 5ft 11in (1.8m)
Weight: 14st (89kg)

Actually just noticed they aren't lying - they just converted m to ft wrong in the original press release - 1.8m is 5ft 11!

[nickj]

He's a veritable giant

[George Carlin]

I have always just sort of assumed that we will take Rennie back on loan. Brizzle are clearly going to farm out their best players to recoup some of the revenue and so I am assuming Rennie will be one of them.

I actually think for reasons of simple geography that a loan to Barf, Glucester or Execter would make more sense but what the hey. Hopefully he'll be looking at top tier club rugby somewhere.

[nickj]

Really? I would imagine Robbo will be fighting tooth and nail to keep his squad together for another tilt? Having said that I'd definitely take Jack Lam and Ross Rennie for the season

[Majestic83]

Yeah I can't see Bristol letting Rennie or any of their top players being loaned out to readily. It is going to be a tough league again for them to get out of. Worcester have recruited pretty heavily and should match Bristol this season so Bristol will need all their top players to get out of the league.

[funnyExiledScot]

Did Bristol also not sign Andy Robinson's son at openside?

Sounds like the result of the same sort of global search that the SRU conducted when "finding" Toonie for the head coach job at Glasgow!

I can't see Rennie wanting to come back to Edinburgh after it was made known that his talents weren't appreciated. He'll just find himself on the bench behind Coman. At least at Bristol he'll start every game, and hopefully regain confidence after injury.

[Nematode]

That was the last signing.

[nickj]

Well, well, well. London Welsh have signed Brumbies back-row forward Lachlan McCaffrey. Who I believe Maj flagged as being SQ a wee while ago. Is Lineen upping his game a bit? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/28212325

[madmaccas]

Well, well, well. London Welsh have signed Brumbies back-row forward Lachlan McCaffrey. Who I believe Maj flagged as being SQ a wee while ago. Is Lineen upping his game a bit? http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/28212325  

Yeah was gonna post that but read in another article that he's being signed in large part because he's EQ. Wouldn't please his paymasters if he started playing for us.

Interesting though, Scottish first name, Irish surname and born in England!?!

[nickj]

I know Welsh need to fulfil English qualified player quotas, but what are they exactly?

Is there any leniency for home nations players over southern hemisphere guys for example?

We seem to have been ok with Cowan and Low at Irish, perhaps it'll be the same with McCaffrey?

[RDW]

I'd assume as soon as he got a cap for Scotland he'd only be SQ and therefore a foreign player.

Anyway, is he any good??

[nickj]

Maj certainly seemed to think so. He's a former Under-20 international, who's been unlucky with injuries, hence the moves between the Tahs, Force and Brumbies.

How many 'foreign players' can an EDP team have?

[RDW]

I'm not sure if that, but I do know they get paid an allowance for every English player they have.

[VinceWLB]

I'd assume as soon as he got a cap for Scotland he'd only be SQ and therefore a foreign player.

Anyway, is he any good??

Scarlets who badly needed a 8 were after him last season but he wasn't deemed good enough for them.

[Nematode]

Can't see him playing for England if he is signing for LW...

[funnyExiledScot]

I'd assume as soon as he got a cap for Scotland he'd only be SQ and therefore a foreign player.

Anyway, is he any good??

Come on now, that sort of rational questionning will never land you the role of Director of Rugby with the SRU.

Anyway, being "good" is not the correct criterion. You only need to be a better 7 than Kelly Brown or a better 6 than Ryan Wilson to make the Scotland XV these days, meaning you can be some way short of "good" to make it.

[George Carlin]

This is very good for a free Scottish rugby publication: http://tiny.cc/jy9nix

I had actually never seen this before.

[funnyExiledScot]

A rugby magazine with a picture of Ibrox on the front cover. I must be dreaming!

[Majestic83]

Maj certainly seemed to think so. He's a former Under-20 international, who's been unlucky with injuries, hence the moves between the Tahs, Force and Brumbies.

How many 'foreign players' can an EDP team have?  

He was certainly very good when he got a few games with the Force last season and the season before but the problem there was he was stuck behind a Wallabies back row of McCalman, Pocock and Hodgson for a big chunck and never got much of a chance. Thought he would have kicked on at the Brumbies this season but again hasn't had much game time at all.
He has performed well in the Shute shield and is always one of the stand out players there. Big ball carrier and is aggresive in the breakdown area. Not sure if he is going to be a case of a very good young player who has developed as far as he can already and won't kick on or if London Welsh will get more out of him with more game time.
Didn't realise he was EQ as well as SQ, could make it interesting if he does perform well for Welsh but at the moment would be down the pecking order for Scotland by quite a way.
Could have been good for Edinburgh though as a back up to Denton instead of Leonardi and would probably be on similar money as him.

[funnyExiledScot]

I do think Edinburgh could do more to ensure that it only takes on NSQ non-project players as a last resort.

Glasgow are much better at it, only taking on such players if they really add something (e.g. DTH, Naka and Matawalu - although I suppose Taylor Paris would be a notable exception).

Players like Leonardi and Coman (and Basilia before them) are perfectly decent squad players, but to me are not at the level I would insist on for NSQ non-project players. I would certainly have supported us taking on this guy, and letting one of the NSQ options go, subject to us being able to afford terminating the contract etc.

[RDW]

Rumours are the new Pro 12 Sponsor (  ) and the fixture list will be announced tomorrow.

[funnyExiledScot]

Well let's hope for a nice and easy start to the season. I'm sure there are different schools of thought in this regard, but I think we need to build some confidence and momentum, and that doesn't mean starting with games against Munster and Leinster. A couple of early hammerings and heads will drop.

[RDW]

Edinburgh definitely need a decent start. Glasgow have shown that they don't necessarily need a good start to be at the business end come the end of the season, but given the massive squad upheaval and fragile confidence Edinburgh need to get going early on.

But then again it probably makes little difference. Edinburgh had a good fixture list 2 years ago and we all know what happened that season. This season had what looked to be a good start but again we messed things up.

[VinceWLB]

I see London Welsh have also signed Jack Gilding, if that's the sort of player they can attract they aren't going far!

[RDW]

I see London Welsh have also signed Jack Gilding, if that's the sort of player they can attract they aren't going far!

Literally just read that Piri Weepu have signed for them...!

Jack Gilding - the worst player in Scottish pro rugby history?

[Majestic83]

I see London Welsh have also signed Jack Gilding, if that's the sort of player they can attract they aren't going far!

Literally just read that Piri Weepu have signed for them...!

Jack Gilding - the worst player in Scottish pro rugby history?

Now Jack Gilding is a player that the "official" height/weight stats on the website and programme were made up. Used to see him in the gym
and he was tiny for a prop. Probably similar height to Finlay Gillies who has just left Glasgow and only slightly wider! Didn't lift much either!

[funnyExiledScot]

Jeez, I can't imagine a single reason for LW signing Gilding. The Jeff is not a league for props who cannot scrummage.

Tough one for the LW PR department - do you focus on publicising Weepu or Gilding?

[RDW]

Jeez, I can't imagine a single reason for LW signing Gilding. The Jeff is not a league for props who cannot scrummage, run, catch, pass, tackle, tie his shoe laces.

Tough one for the LW PR department - do you focus on publicising Weepu or Gilding?

Fixed that for you   

[Majestic83]

Jeez, I can't imagine a single reason for LW signing Gilding. The Jeff is not a league for props who cannot scrummage, run, catch, pass, tackle, tie his shoe laces.

Tough one for the LW PR department - do you focus on publicising Weepu or Gilding?

Fixed that for you   

Saying that I am sure i read somewhere that Gilding won player of the year in Italy for the pro league there this season! Either he has come on leaps and bounds since Edinburgh or the league is utter rubbish.

[George Carlin]

Gilding was an absolute joke as a prop - he got folded like a crash test dummy in every single game I saw him in. The idea of him packing down opposite Marcos Ayerza or Alex Corbisiero is both hilarious and horrible at the same time.

[funnyExiledScot]

Jeez, I can't imagine a single reason for LW signing Gilding. The Jeff is not a league for props who cannot scrummage, run, catch, pass, tackle, tie his shoe laces.

Tough one for the LW PR department - do you focus on publicising Weepu or Gilding?

Fixed that for you   

Saying that I am sure i read somewhere that Gilding won player of the year in Italy for the pro league there this season! Either he has come on leaps and bounds since Edinburgh or the league is utter rubbish.

Well I took the following from Planet Rugby:

A product of the Worcester Academy, Gilding joins Welsh after spending the last two seasons at Italian club Viadana.

The tighthead prop, 26, marked his debut season in Italy by helping Viadana to second place in the Super 10 league and being named 'Player of the Year' by highly respected Italian rugby magazine Lameta.

Plymouth born, Gilding attended Hartpury College before being signed by the Worcester Warriors Academy in 2007. He earned a senior contract for the 2009/10 season and made his Warriors debut at the age of 20 against London Wasps at Adams Park.

During his time at Sixways he also enjoyed loan spells at both Moseley and Stourbridge.

Scottish qualified, Gilding spent two years at Edinburgh Rugby, where he gained Heineken Cup experience. He was also called in to the Scotland Training Squad during the 2012 Six Nations, although he remains uncapped.

  

[RDW]

To be fair we were so short of props then that I'm pretty sure Radge was in the top 10 shortlist. I'm pretty sure that was the time that Kyle Traynor was reserve tighthead for a short spell.

It was also the 50 strong squad pre-6N, so pretty much everyone got an invite!

It is embarrassing though.

[funnyExiledScot]

I think it's also notable that during his short career he has played for Worcester, Moseley, Stourbridge, Edinburgh, Viadana and now London Welsh.

He's 26 and has 6 clubs on his CV.

All I know is that when my firm gets job applications from lawyers with as many firms on their CV as qualified experience, we tend to politely decline!

[George Carlin]

Jeez, I can't imagine a single reason for LW signing Gilding. The Jeff is not a league for props who cannot scrummage.

Tough one for the LW PR department - do you focus on publicising Weepu or Gilding?

  I presume that it's 'take out the trash day' and they are hoping that the chat about whether Weepu will settle and keep his fitness will drown out people like us who remember what an enormous powder puff jessie Gilding actually was.

[madmaccas]

Gilding is a stinker but LW seem to signing far more quality players than I'd expect for a promoted team who were only able to start recruiting just over a month ago!

They've got All Black Weepu, McCaffrey and Barclay and the best Edinburgh can muster are a couple of also rans from strugglers Newcastle, a couple of guys who can't hold down a place in Super Rugby and a bloke who was playing for Bath's 2nd team last season. The only signing I'm confident about is Bresler.

Does beg the question what Edinburgh are spending their money on?! Dodson said they were getting the same as the Aviva salary cap, so they should be able to recruit big players!

Hell, even lowly Connacht got All Black legend Mils Muliaina! Then you've got Championship side Bristol (who have a smaller salary cap) who have signed internationals Ian Evans, Ryan Jones, Matthew Morgan, Jack Lam and our only top class player Ross Rennie.


We don't have one genuine world class player (Matt Scott may become one) in a squad that apparently cost £5 million.

The more big signings are made by other teams, the more I'm mystified why we weren't talking to any of these guys.

[nickj]

I get your point Madmaccas but I'd argue many of those signings are past their prime. Weepu, Ian Evans, Ryan Jones, Barclay and Muliainia certainly are. I'd have taken Lam and Rennie without blinking. McCaffrey sounds like he's got a bit to prove.

(EDIT - Ian Evans is only 29 so definitely not past his prime)

[RDW]

Confirmed fixtures announced at 11am tomorrow

[madmaccas]

I get your point Madmaccas but I'd argue many of those signings are past their prime. Weepu, Ian Evans, Ryan Jones, Barclay and Muliainia certainly are. I'd have taken Lam and Rennie without blinking. McCaffrey sounds like he's got a bit to prove.

I think Ryan Jones and Muliaina probably are (still probably better than 90% of the players at Edinburgh), but Weepu is only 30 and has been nailed down for the Blues following his return. Ian Evans kept Richie Gray out of the Lions just last summer and I totally forgot about Connacht getting Bundee Aki.

Just can't figure out what that're spending the dosh on, can't be the Toolis twins!!!

[nickj]

I'm with you on the cash, I hope there's lots and lots left, but I think both Edinburgh and Glasgow's recruitment should be seen in the context of having 2 senior teams.

Whether we like it or not, neither team is entirely independent of the SRU, so while there's room for NSQ or project players, we have to pick and choose and 90% of recruitment is done with the national team in mind.

As FES pointed out above Glasgow seem to strike the balance very well, to date Edinburgh haven't. This season's signings and a handful of last season's have a chance to reverse that trend.

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