Ulster 2014/2015, Part 2

First topic message reminder :

Part 1; https://www.606v2.com/t53882p950-ulster-2014-2015

We've been rocked with the seismic revelation David Humphreys is leaving the province- indeed has already left- for Gloucester. Anscombe was slated to be seeing out the last year of his contract before being quietly let go but the Humphreys bombshell left him as the odd man out, and he's been pushed out the door. The decision was partly because he was hired to work under a Director of Rugby and Ulster are looking for someone with more experience in the market to take on Humphreys role in addition to the coaching responsibilities. As usual, the rumour mill is on overdrive and opinions are polarised- but this is Ulster Rugby after all. Les Kiss is our interim Director of Rugby and it seems Allen Clarke is filling the role of forwards coach in the short term. More changes or appointments could be forthcoming.

If all that wasn't enough we've been dealt a real group of death in the new Champions Cup- double-winners Toulon will brave the Ravenhill roar along with old friends Leicester Tigers and old foes the Scarlets. All in all, this team should be capable of securing a Top 4 finish at the very least in the Pro12 and we need to target the top two, our prospects in Europe look more occluded- it might come down to best runners-up and our pool promises to be tight and competitive.

Our pre-season concludes when we take on Exeter Chiefs at Ravenhill on Friday the 22nd August and then travel to Donnybrook to face Leinster on Friday the 29th August. It'll be a big relief to see the action at Ravenhill moving from the headlines to the pitch

Players Out
Johann Muller (retired), Paddy Wallace (retired), Stephen Ferris (retired), Chris Cochrane (retired), Chris Farrell (Grenoble), Niall Annett (Worcester), John Afoa (Gloucester), Tom Court (London Irish), James McKinney (Rotherham), David McIlwaine (Rotherham), Paddy McAllister (Aurillac), Sean Doyle (ACT Brumbies), Adam Macklin (Rotherham), Ian Porter (Connacht)

Players In
Franco van der Merwe (Golden Lions), Louis Ludik (Agen), Wiehahn Herbst (Natal Sharks), Ruaidhrí Murphy (ACT Brumbies), Dave Ryan (Zebre), Ian Humphreys (London Irish), Charlie Butterworth (Lansdowne), Sean Reidy (Counties Manukau)

Hookers
Rory Best, Rob Herring (Jonny Murphy, John Andrew*)
Props
Callum Black, Ruaidhrí Murphy, Andrew Warwick, Declan Fitzpatrick, Wiehahn Herbst, Dave Ryan, Ricky Lutton, Bronson Ross, Kyle McCall(?)
Locks
Iain Henderson, Dan Tuohy, Franco van der Merwe, Lewis Stevenson, Neil McComb
Backrow
Robbie Diack, Conor Joyce, Chris Henry, Mike McComish, Sean Reidy, Charlie Butterworth, Nick Williams, Roger Wilson (Clive Ross**)
Scrum-half
Ruan Pienaar, Paul Marshall, Michael Heaney
Outhalf
Paddy Jackson, Ian Humphreys
Centres
Luke Marshall, Stuart Olding, Darren Cave, Stuart McCloskey
Wings
Michael Allen, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Craig Gilroy
Fullback
Louis Ludik, Ricky Andrew, Jared Payne, Peter Nelson

*Academy hookers training with first team squad
**Clive Ross, cousin of Mike, is on trial

Opening fixtures

F; Exeter Chiefs (H)
F; Leinster (A)

Pro12; Scarlets (A)
Pro12; Zebre (H)
Pro12; Cardiff Blues (A)
Pro12; Zebre (A)
Pro12; Edinburgh (H)

ECC; Leicester Tigers (A)
ECC; RC Toulon (H)

Clever boy

Cheeky boy

oh, oh. Rory supporting Leinster in the RDS this evening

According to the EPCR site, Paddy Wallace was playing for Ulster last night

It's in the match report. I'm guessing the numpty didn't actually watch the game last night

Munchkin wrote:According to the EPCR site, Paddy Wallace was playing for Ulster last night

It's in the match report. I'm guessing the numpty didn't actually watch the game last night

I think you'll find it's you who didn't watch the game last night. Paddy got a phone call to his beach front retirement holiday home in the Maldives. He was told to put down his Martini and the girl and transport himself back to the Ulster ranks forthwith. He was on the bench had you looked closely enough.

Jasus lads after Toulons performance today you should be targeting a bonus point win next weekend...

A wounded Toulon is not the kind of animal I want visiting Ravers next week. Mind you we're feeling pretty wounded ourselves so both teams really have a point to prove.
At least the Scarlets showed how the mighty Toulon are not entirely invincible.

Perhaps the Scarlets showed how Toulon are not invinciple.  Yes, the jury is out and that's a possibility.

But also, there is a real possibility that Toulon yawned through their day and took their win and kept their powder dry for bigger fish.

That is to say, maybe they'll be coming not as 'wounded animals' but as a side barely looking interested yet.  And that's kinda even more dangerous a prospect.

Sin é wrote:oh, oh. Rory supporting Leinster in the RDS this evening

Well it sounds like they need some help with their salaries in light of the Sexton signing, more than us. Share the wealth I say

<irony>

Both Trimble and L.Marshall out of action for a few months. I am getting a bad feeling in my gut that feels awfully like injury deja vu. We can't be losing anymore players.

Anyone heard any word on Ruan's return?

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:According to the EPCR site, Paddy Wallace was playing for Ulster last night

It's in the match report. I'm guessing the numpty didn't actually watch the game last night

I think you'll find it's you who didn't watch the game last night.  Paddy got a phone call to his beach front retirement holiday home in the Maldives.  He was told to put down his Martini and the girl and transport himself back to the Ulster ranks forthwith.  He was on the bench had you looked closely enough.

Well I wasn't convinced I was really watching Ulster for much of that game, so you might just be right

Trimble not likely to return until after Christmas. Marshall may be back just before.
Hopefully Scholes has fully recovered. Maybe Ludik can cover wing?

Ludik can cover wing indeed.
The dream scenario being Ludik benched to cover wing and 15, Gilroy and Bowe at 11 & 14, Payne to 15, Cave starting at to 13......

Joseph Schmidt would have a fit

A hint of injury crisis can give some perspective. It normally means we are forced to play less well known players. But how good is it to see a player like McCloskey break through somewhat regardless of injury! (he got game time even before Marshall got injured!).
I told folks at the start of the season we would see Olding in green at some point. Now I wouldnt bet against McCloskey featuring in November!

McCloskey has definately changed my mind about who we should be playing at 12. He has a fabulous blend of raw power and silky skills which we need the right 13 to feed off. Now therein lies the problem.......

O'Connor of course another classy looking player to have been given the change due to another's injury.

I want McCloskey at 13 long term.

Gives us great options across the board

11 Bowe, Gilroy
12 Olding, Marshall
13 McCloskey, Cave
14 Trimble, Scholes
15 Payne, Ludik

Notch wrote:I want McCloskey at 13 long term.

Gives us great options across the board

11 Bowe, Gilroy
12 Olding, Marshall
13 McCloskey, Cave
14 Trimble, Scholes
15 Payne, Ludik

Pretty much perfect. A very good back-line with some great options.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Notch wrote:I want McCloskey at 13 long term.

Gives us great options across the board

11 Bowe, Gilroy
12 Olding, Marshall
13 McCloskey, Cave
14 Trimble, Scholes
15 Payne, Ludik

Pretty much perfect.  A very good back-line with some great options.

12 - Olding
13 - McCloskey

Where's the emoticon for Homer Simpson drooling?

Notch wrote:I want McCloskey at 13 long term.

Gives us great options across the board

11 Bowe, Gilroy
12 Olding, Marshall
13 McCloskey, Cave
14 Trimble, Scholes
15 Payne, Ludik

Sadly though only one of these guys gets to start at a time because one of our only two real full-backs fancies himself a center.

He better start resembling even a fraction of the player BOD was and soon or I'm going to lose it!

So during the AIs we will likely have

Pienaar??? I would be inclined to tell SA to feck off
Jackson/IHumph
McCloskey
Cave
Scholes??

Ludik

I'm missing a winger there. Anyone any ideas?

Assuming Gilroy gets the Scmidt call, then Allen can come in, although Ludik would probably start ahead of Allen at wing, with Payne at 15?

Munchkin wrote:Assuming Gilroy gets the Scmidt call, then Allen can come in, although Ludik would probably start ahead of Allen at wing, with Payne at 15?

I can see them putting Raaymaker at 15 before they take the 13 shirt off Jared.

It's getting so that I wouldn't be shocked, Clive. I'm really hoping that they cease with the Payne experiment after the Toulon game. Tough on Payne as he really wants the shirt, and he has improved over the weeks, but at 15 he is class personified. I just can't see the point in us losing the magic he brings to that position.

Yea, just to clarify - I'm in no way anti-payne. I was probably one of the more ok with it. But we have given it time and

a) he hasn't been more impressive than our other centers
b) he is so much better at 15
c) sometimes i even question if he should have a starting shirt since Ludik has been so solid

Its a crazy predicament to be in. And truthfully, i'd prefer that any of McCloskey, Olding, Cave, Ludik or Payne had got injured instead of Trimble!

It's crazy to think that we also produced Farrell! Can't we grab some of these guys at age 18 and say "here, you know what, you might want to think about switching to full-back or wing or out-half!"

The Payne experiment has run it's full course for now IMO, it's time to stop weakening ourselves and playing our best combinations despite what Schmidt or Payne desire.
Payne was indeed one of the Super15's outstanding 13s in his final season with the blues and that's no mean feat in the S15. The thing is to emulate that we would have to have the same team dynamics around him at 13, the same pack playing against similar packs, the same styles of play against similar opposition etc. That's not going to happen, this is the Pro12, not the Super15. It's not working and he's a world class full back being wasted on pipe dreams.

Maybe, just maybe he'll find that team dynamic in the Irish setup, you never can tell until it's tried out. If it does Schmidt will continue to hobble Ulster at 13 and the likes of Cave will sod off the France for a payday. Who would blame him and there are already rumours a deal's being discussed.

Munchkin wrote:It's getting so that I wouldn't be shocked, Clive. I'm really hoping that they cease with the Payne experiment after the Toulon game. Tough on Payne as he really wants the shirt, and he has improved over the weeks, but at 15 he is class personified. I just can't see the point in us losing the magic he brings to that position.

Thats the thing; it's not just that Payne isn't effective at 13, we also are losing his effectiveness at 15. It's like we're losing a key player at 15 and as a result have no room for another of our back lines key players at 13 in Cave.

Fecking tragic.

So the guy in the know on t'other forum has said there is to be some news today, good news.

McCloskey has to be selected. Gordon D'Arcy must be about a thousand by now and Ireland needs some of that Bangor Anger in midfield.

Is Stuart Olding ever going to get any game time? We can't get as excited as you fellers about him if we never actually see him on a rugby pitch.

I'm not as big a fan of Cave as everyone else it seems, the bald truth is that he is short of Test class, and even though I wish it were otherwise that is the reality. He is better than guys like Jan Cunninghan and Seamus Mallon, but not in the class of Paul Steinmetz. I like Cave as a player but Ulster need (and have needed) someone with more attacking class, so his place is not assured and he could very well follow Whitten and get more guaranteed rugby outside of Ireland.

It would be ridiculous to recruit another centre, so it is perfectly reasonable to give Payne a chance considering his track record at 13. He is naturally the first choice contender, but not the only one. I expect even if Payne moves back to 15, Doak will continue to work down the list of contenders for the 13 shirt.

The Great Aukster wrote:I'm not as big a fan of Cave as everyone else it seems, the bald truth is that he is short of Test class, and even though I wish it were otherwise that is the reality. He is better than guys like Jan Cunninghan and Seamus Mallon, but not in the class of Paul Steinmetz. I like Cave as a player but Ulster need (and have needed) someone with more attacking class, so his place is not assured and he could very well follow Whitten and get more guaranteed rugby outside of Ireland.

It would be ridiculous to recruit another centre, so it is perfectly reasonable to give Payne a chance considering his track record at 13. He is naturally the first choice contender, but not the only one. I expect even if Payne moves back to 15, Doak will continue to work down the list of contenders for the 13 shirt.

I read others saying the same about Cave but there are players at Test level who don't seem to cover the ground as fast and if anything towards the end of last season he seemed to have found an extra half yard of pace from somewhere. He does offer other skills though.

George Carlin wrote:McCloskey has to be selected. Gordon D'Arcy must be about a thousand by now and Ireland needs some of that Bangor Anger in midfield.

Is Stuart Olding ever going to get any game time? We can't get as excited as you fellers about him if we never actually see him on a rugby pitch.

The first part of your post explains the second part!

This will be of particular interest to you guys!

It’s ‘absolutely untrue’ that I influence provincial selection – Schmidt
The Ireland head coach refuted the notion that he has told Ulster to pick Jared Payne at outside centre.

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/joe-schmidt-provinces-selection-ireland-1739964-Oct2014/?utm_source=twitter_self

So all the Anscombe and payne haters will now turn on Doak?

Doak out!!

To be honest even the Irish management influnences on player positions have never applied to European games,
When they request players to play in certain positions it is always the league games, Euro is too important to be experimenting in.

So the selection of Payne at 13 V Tigers was Doak's decision. It could have been influnced because the IRFU requested him to play there in a game or 2 leading up to it and he wanted to keep some continuity, rather than changing things before a big game.

When everyone is blaming the IRFU for forcing the experiment I don't believe they have requested too much, maybe a game or two at 13 before the Nov internationals, the rest is down to Ulster coaches.

I don't believe Schmidt in fairness. IMO he should be influencing provincial selection. As long as he doesn't dictate then I think influencing is fair enough. Everything about our pro-rugby structure is geared towards national success anyway

Well if Schmidt is dictating/strongly influencing Ulster selection, then his denial means that he is being very unfair to Doak. For that reason I have to believe that he is not manipulating Ulster selection, even if he is making suggestions to Ulster Rugby. That's his job.

Maybe the Ulster management promised Payne a few chances at 13 when he was renegotiating his contract and when he was in demand back in NZ and had a good chance to be capped by them? Maybe Payne thought he would have a better chance to get capped by Ireland if he could play in the centre and as fullback and Ulster agreed to help him do this?

Sin é wrote:Maybe the Ulster management promised Payne a few chances at 13 when he was renegotiating his contract and when he was in demand back in NZ and had a  good chance to be capped by them? Maybe Payne thought he would have a better chance to get capped by Ireland if he could play in the centre and as fullback and Ulster agreed to help him do this?

Yea I also heard Ian Humphreys said to Doaky "I'm not done yet - I still reckon I have a chance at the Ireland 10 jersey. Only problem is, I need gametime to prove it, so can I start ahead of Paddy from now on" Doaky said "Certainly Ian, letting people have a bash at achieving their international aspirations is the number one priority of this financial establishment!".

Thats what I hear so it is.

Ian Humphreys was never exactly AB test standard  He didn't even play for Ulster last weekend, did he?

Some of the people 'in-the-know' on here were even claiming that Payne was on an IRFU central contract about 2 years ago. And, there were a lot of NZ centres injuries around the last time he signed his last contract and Ulster might have been very happy to facilitate Payne with a few opportunities to play in the centre. I certainly would not think its a big deal anyway if they did agree.

edit: it could also get him off the Ulster wage bill and onto the IRFU's one.

There's no issue with Ulster giving Payne a chance at centre, but a chance is just that. It's not a cast iron guarantee to be given the shirt. Payne has had his chance, and it's time to move back to the position he shines in - Fullback.

There will be an issue if Payne continues at centre.

Payne has to start this week at 13 for me. After that he is away in the national camps and we look at other options. That's to say Cave will get the shirt seeing as Olding is away too

Notch wrote:

George Carlin wrote:McCloskey has to be selected. Gordon D'Arcy must be about a thousand by now and Ireland needs some of that Bangor Anger in midfield.

Is Stuart Olding ever going to get any game time? We can't get as excited as you fellers about him if we never actually see him on a rugby pitch.

The first part of your post explains the second part!

Are both outside centres? Surely it makes sense to have McCloskey at 12? He was made to take first contact.

George Carlin wrote:

Notch wrote:

George Carlin wrote:McCloskey has to be selected. Gordon D'Arcy must be about a thousand by now and Ireland needs some of that Bangor Anger in midfield.

Is Stuart Olding ever going to get any game time? We can't get as excited as you fellers about him if we never actually see him on a rugby pitch.

The first part of your post explains the second part!

Are both outside centres? Surely it makes sense to have McCloskey at 12? He was made to take first contact.

Both are specialist inside centres. Olding is a pure 12. I think McCloskey would actually be better at 13, his running game is pretty excellent- if he was outside a creative 12 and a 10 he could pick some devastating lines and then he's very hard to stop with his footwork and his ability to get the offload away. I think get him in open space instead of just first contact. You could play left and right centres with him and Olding.

Anyway, Olding is in the Ireland squad and McCloskey isn't. So we should see more of McCloskey at 12 for Ulster but we'll probably see Olding at 12 for Ireland against Georgia

I actually think McCloskey - Cave will be a really good partnership during the AIs. Just a pity we are really light on back three options.

I'd like to see Olding and McCloskey paired seeing as we're talking experimental. Olding is as creative as you'll get and as Notch says, McCloskey outside him and on his shoulder etc. would pick some devastating lines. I mean if the Payne experiment is viable then why not this one

During the AIs it most likely will be McCloskey & Cave although Olding may be freed up due to Schmidt's man-love of D'Arcy.

Standulstermen wrote:I don't believe Schmidt in fairness. IMO he should be influencing provincial selection. As long as he doesn't dictate then I think influencing is fair enough. Everything about our pro-rugby structure is geared towards national success anyway

Well Bloody Said, Stand.  

I think Joe should stop trying to second guess criticism and not try to pretend he doesn't have Influence.  He does - or, as you say, he should have.  It's what we want.  We want what was promised when he came in.  We want Provinces finally finding a more cohesive method of playing the game (and an effective way!!! - for all those naysayers who would say the Provinces shouldn't have to have one blueprint )  
We all said we needed a cohesive system that players can be picked from all sides and rapidly fall into and in with a National Side's style of play.  That idea needs controlling and monitoring.  If it doesn't need that attention - if we again want total autonomy for Irish Provinces to again call it their own way - then bye bye already to the grand idea of helping players form all Provinces more fully integrate into the national squad when chosen to play in it.

So, rather than deny influencing Provinces, Joe should understand that denial really isn't a bonus.  Yes, the Provincial coaches dictate what happens to their side but the National coach should be expected to have continuous communication with them in a constructive way, whereby they can all together construct a smooth running Whole that would hopefully help out all sides in the long term - both National AND Provincial rugby.

SecretFly wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:I don't believe Schmidt in fairness. IMO he should be influencing provincial selection. As long as he doesn't dictate then I think influencing is fair enough. Everything about our pro-rugby structure is geared towards national success anyway

Well Bloody Said, Stand.  

I think Joe should stop trying to second guess criticism and not try to pretend he doesn't have Influence.  He does - or, as you say, he should have.  It's what we want.  We want what was promised when he came in.  We want Provinces finally finding a more cohesive method of playing the game (and an effective way!!! - for all those naysayers who would say the Provinces shouldn't have to have one blueprint )  
We all said we needed a cohesive system that players can be picked from all sides and rapidly fall into and in with a National Side's style of play.  That idea needs controlling and monitoring.  If it doesn't need that attention - if we again want total autonomy for Irish Provinces to again call it their own way - then bye bye already to the grand idea of helping players form all Provinces more fully integrate into the national squad when chosen to play in it.

So, rather than deny influencing Provinces, Joe should understand that denial really isn't a bonus.  Yes, the Provincial coaches dictate what happens to their side but the National coach should be expected to have continuous communication with them in a constructive way, whereby they can all together construct a smooth running Whole that would hopefully help out all sides in the long term - both National AND Provincial rugby.

Absolutely correct Fly.
If it works in the land of the long white cloud maybe it's worth a try

Notch wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

Notch wrote:

George Carlin wrote:McCloskey has to be selected. Gordon D'Arcy must be about a thousand by now and Ireland needs some of that Bangor Anger in midfield.

Is Stuart Olding ever going to get any game time? We can't get as excited as you fellers about him if we never actually see him on a rugby pitch.

The first part of your post explains the second part!

Are both outside centres? Surely it makes sense to have McCloskey at 12? He was made to take first contact.

Both are specialist inside centres. Olding is a pure 12. I think McCloskey would actually be better at 13, his running game is pretty excellent- if he was outside a creative 12 and a 10 he could pick some devastating lines and then he's very hard to stop with his footwork and his ability to get the offload away. I think get him in open space instead of just first contact. You could play left and right centres with him and Olding.

Anyway, Olding is in the Ireland squad and McCloskey isn't. So we should see more of McCloskey at 12 for Ulster but we'll probably see Olding at 12 for Ireland against Georgia

George,
Both McCloskey and Olding have played plenty of rugby at 10, and I agree with you that McCloskey is more suited to 12 because he takes a lot of stopping and is the ideal decoy runner in attack. His size in defence can really help snuff out opposition flankers running through the 10 channel.
Olding is a better stepper and has electric acceleration to power through stretched gaps, coupled with a heads up approach to spot them in the first place. He is strong at the breakdown due to his low centre of gravity and could be more likely to get turnovers wide so is in theory ideally suited to the Outside Centre position.

So it seems in Europe this year the coaches will be voting for their own man of the match, against Leicester they choose..... ....Jared Payne