Ulster 2014/2015, Part 2

by **Notch** Mon 14 Jul 2014, 3:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

Part 1; https://www.606v2.com/t53882p950-ulster-2014-2015

We've been rocked with the seismic revelation David Humphreys is leaving the province- indeed has already left- for Gloucester. Anscombe was slated to be seeing out the last year of his contract before being quietly let go but the Humphreys bombshell left him as the odd man out, and he's been pushed out the door. The decision was partly because he was hired to work under a Director of Rugby and Ulster are looking for someone with more experience in the market to take on Humphreys role in addition to the coaching responsibilities. As usual, the rumour mill is on overdrive and opinions are polarised- but this is Ulster Rugby after all. Les Kiss is our interim Director of Rugby and it seems Allen Clarke is filling the role of forwards coach in the short term. More changes or appointments could be forthcoming.

If all that wasn't enough we've been dealt a real group of death in the new Champions Cup- double-winners Toulon will brave the Ravenhill roar along with old friends Leicester Tigers and old foes the Scarlets. All in all, this team should be capable of securing a Top 4 finish at the very least in the Pro12 and we need to target the top two, our prospects in Europe look more occluded- it might come down to best runners-up and our pool promises to be tight and competitive.

Our pre-season concludes when we take on Exeter Chiefs at Ravenhill on Friday the 22nd August and then travel to Donnybrook to face Leinster on Friday the 29th August. It'll be a big relief to see the action at Ravenhill moving from the headlines to the pitch

Players Out
Johann Muller (retired), Paddy Wallace (retired), Stephen Ferris (retired), Chris Cochrane (retired), Chris Farrell (Grenoble), Niall Annett (Worcester), John Afoa (Gloucester), Tom Court (London Irish), James McKinney (Rotherham), David McIlwaine (Rotherham), Paddy McAllister (Aurillac), Sean Doyle (ACT Brumbies), Adam Macklin (Rotherham), Ian Porter (Connacht)

Players In
Franco van der Merwe (Golden Lions), Louis Ludik (Agen), Wiehahn Herbst (Natal Sharks), Ruaidhrí Murphy (ACT Brumbies), Dave Ryan (Zebre), Ian Humphreys (London Irish), Charlie Butterworth (Lansdowne), Sean Reidy (Counties Manukau)

Hookers
Rory Best, Rob Herring (Jonny Murphy, John Andrew*)
Props
Callum Black, Ruaidhrí Murphy, Andrew Warwick, Declan Fitzpatrick, Wiehahn Herbst, Dave Ryan, Ricky Lutton, Bronson Ross, Kyle McCall(?)
Locks
Iain Henderson, Dan Tuohy, Franco van der Merwe, Lewis Stevenson, Neil McComb
Backrow
Robbie Diack, Conor Joyce, Chris Henry, Mike McComish, Sean Reidy, Charlie Butterworth, Nick Williams, Roger Wilson (Clive Ross**)
Scrum-half
Ruan Pienaar, Paul Marshall, Michael Heaney
Outhalf
Paddy Jackson, Ian Humphreys
Centres
Luke Marshall, Stuart Olding, Darren Cave, Stuart McCloskey
Wings
Michael Allen, Andrew Trimble, Tommy Bowe, Craig Gilroy
Fullback
Louis Ludik, Ricky Andrew, Jared Payne, Peter Nelson

*Academy hookers training with first team squad
**Clive Ross, cousin of Mike, is on trial

Opening fixtures

F; Exeter Chiefs (H)
F; Leinster (A)

Pro12; Scarlets (A)
Pro12; Zebre (H)
Pro12; Cardiff Blues (A)
Pro12; Zebre (A)
Pro12; Edinburgh (H)

ECC; Leicester Tigers (A)
ECC; RC Toulon (H)

by **Notch** Thu 23 Oct 2014, 6:45 pm

I'm actually happy, because thats a great move. A player might feel under appreciated and need a confidence boost and thats a great way to give him it.

I did feel that it was his contribution from fullback that was most telling although his work for Tommy Bowes try was excellent. It was a good game from him, it's just frustrating to see how instantly he improved when he moved back to 15.

by Standulstermen Thu 23 Oct 2014, 7:09 pm

marty2086 wrote:So it seems in Europe this year the coaches will be voting for their own man of the match, against Leicester they choose..... ....Jared Payne

Who was better? And if you mention someone with shirt numbers 1-10 I will laugh heartily.

by Guest Thu 23 Oct 2014, 7:10 pm

Wee Marshall must be raging mad

by Guest Thu 23 Oct 2014, 7:16 pm

True, Stand. It was either Payne or McCloskey, and McCloskey had very little ball all match.

by Standulstermen Thu 23 Oct 2014, 9:43 pm

I find the thing ludicrous giving a 'MVP' in a game where we were completely rubbish but I don't mind Payne. Predictable reactions from facebook though.

by Pete330v2 Fri 24 Oct 2014, 12:11 pm

Team announced

15 Ludik
14 Bowe
13 Payne
12 Olding
11 Gilroy
10 Jackson
9 Marshall

1 Warwick
2 Best
3 Herbst
4 Stevenson
5 vd Merwe
6 Diak
7 Henry
8 Wilson

Bench - Herring, Black, Fitzpatrick, Ross, Williams, Heaney, Humphries, Cave.

by Pete330v2 Fri 24 Oct 2014, 12:22 pm

Hey at least they have a full-back playing out of position in the backline too.....Armitage on the wing Smile

Reading t'other forum about the team announcement which was done by way of a video.
Nice touch I thought, no so t'other forum.

However, this description of the video made me chuckle so thought it worth sharing.

(walk up slowly and fold arms) Ludik; (walk up slowly and fold arms)Bowe, (walk up slowly and nod to PR team)Payne, (walk up slowly and fold arms)Olding, (dance up slowly and fold arms)Gilroy; (walk up slowly and fold arms)Jackson, (walk up slowly, look right, look left, look right, tap and go, pass to the opposition and fold arms)Marshall; (Drive up slowly and fold arms)Warwick, (walk up slowly and fold arms)Best, (walk up slowly and fold arms - but make sure the lighting makes him look a right Mofo)Herbst, (walk up slowly and fold arms)Stevenson, (walk up slowly and fold arms)vd Merwe; (walk up slowly and fold arms)Diak, (walk up slowly and fold arms)Henry, (walk up slowly and fold arms)Wilson.

(walk up slowly and fold arms)Herring, (walk up slowly and fold arms)Black, (walk up slowly and fold arms, trip, pull a muscle get carried off, punches camera man)Fitzpatrick, (walk up slowly and fold arms)Ross, (walk up slowly, with fish supper and fold arms)Williams, (walk up slowly and walk away slowly)Heaney, (walk up slowly and let the camera man pass him on the inside)Humphries, (walk up slowly reading phrase book, "Bonjour")Cave.

by clivemcl Fri 24 Oct 2014, 12:49 pm

Don't think Warwick got the idea. It's meant to be fairly intemidatory and sullen. He looks like he's about to say "well boy whatabout ye, hows she cuttin?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF1VjYwhKBk#t=114

by Guest Fri 24 Oct 2014, 1:04 pm

I'm a bit surprised McCloskey has been dropped. Other than that it's as expected.

Black is doing his best not to laugh in the video, Deccie looks different, and Best looks weird.

by Guest Fri 24 Oct 2014, 1:31 pm

Standulstermen wrote:I find the thing ludicrous giving a 'MVP' in a game where we were completely rubbish but I don't mind Payne. Predictable reactions from facebook though.

It's as if they are rewarding loss. They like a good rant on facebook, even if they don't always know what they are ranting about Erm

by clivemcl Fri 24 Oct 2014, 1:47 pm

Everyone's has been in slo-mo apart from Humphries. His is realtime, he just acted the slo-mo there and then. That's how into it he was.

by toml Fri 24 Oct 2014, 4:07 pm

Munchkin wrote:I'm a bit surprised McCloskey has been dropped. Other than that it's as expected.

Black is doing his best not to laugh in the video, Deccie looks different, and Best looks weird.

McCloskey is a 12, Olding is a 12 (and I would contend our best centre) and Payne is 13 full stop.

3 into 2 and all that.

I think McCloskey has a bit of development left before he is near test standard, he has probably been flying under the radar of opposing teams up to the Leicester game and benefitted to an extent of being a surprise package. My gut instinct is that he will be a good player for us, but maybe not at the top level. I hope he proves me wrong!

I think Olding has the higest potential ability ceiling of all our backs and feel he should be getting plenty of gametime so he can resume his development. I love his nimbleness to get through gaps and his distribution. He reminds me of another Irish centre I can't quite remember the name of.

Humphreys seems like a good Hail Mary option on the bench, especially if it is a physical match and Toulon start to tire.

We really need to develop a 2nd scrum half capable at this level. The drop from Ruan to P affects our team performance too greatly.

On another note, it is funny how we questioned the wisdom of bringing in Ludik rather than another openside. We assumed he was coming to be a utility back. Seems more obvious that he was brought in to replace Jared Payne the 15, who we are unlikely to see much of again.

Our depth in the backrow is undoubtably very thin (can Stevie not be given wolverines power of healing?), and with both 8s about 32 I wonder what the future planning in that area is
(Correction- Roger is 33 and Nick about to turn 31)

by **Notch** Fri 24 Oct 2014, 4:45 pm

toml wrote:On another note, it is funny how we questioned the wisdom of bringing in Ludik rather than another openside. We assumed he was coming to be a utility back. Seems more obvious that he was brought in to replace Jared Payne the 15, who we are unlikely to see much of again.

Our depth in the backrow is undoubtably very thin (can Stevie not be given wolverines power of healing?), and with both 8s about 32 I wonder what the future planning in that area is
(Correction- Roger is 33 and Nick about to turn 31)

Sorry but thats exactly why we questioned the signing of Ludik- because we knew he was replacing Payne as our 15 and we needed to leave a spot open for the signing of an extra back row more than we needed to convert another player to ply his trade in the already overstocked centres.

If you take Paynes international ambitions and Irelands priorities out of the equation, keeping Payne at 15 and signing a fifth European Cup quality back rower instead of Ludik was a no-brainer. Payne might come good at 13 and Ludik has surprised no-one by upholding his reputation as a class act from Super Rugby... but if one of our four good back rowers pulls out for tomorrow and we have Clive Ross and Mike McComish on the bench covering the entire back five, people might find it hard to disagree. It's pretty hard to think about what chance we'd have against Toulon with an injury crisis in the back row similar to what we've had in the second row. I still think it was a mistake not to get an NIQ spot used on the back row- even if we had to try and broker a swap deal with another province to cover the back three with Payne as a makeweight if he didn't want to play 15 anymore as a result.

by alkmaar67 Fri 24 Oct 2014, 5:10 pm

I received my email this afternoon with the Matchday guide, which is a nice touch. Very excited now ahead of my first live rugby union game. Am I allowed to bring in my ipad? Was thinking it might be a bit awkward being in the terrace.

by **Notch** Fri 24 Oct 2014, 5:29 pm

Yeah, it might be a bit cosy on the terrace being a sold out crowd alk. You wouldn't want someone to jostle you and knock the thing out of your hands or something. It gets pretty tight when its a big game like this.

As far as I know there is no official ban or policy or anything, so I suppose its up to you!

by alkmaar67 Fri 24 Oct 2014, 5:34 pm

Thanks Notch. It will be strange watching from the stands as opposed to on television but the first sold out game of the season should provide a superb atmosphere. Despite a terrible first half last week, it was encouraging how the team came back but I expect Toulon to be a different proposition entirely. Might try and nab one of the free scarves and get the kebab after on the way back home Wink

On Payne, I was surprised to hear the Ireland coach say he had not exerted any influence on selection as whether true or not, I thought it was accepted that the Ireland team came first, as is the case with the English cricket team and the countries (even if there is too much interference there in my view). There may be a problem that it's in the IRFU's interest that the provinces go as far in Europe as possible for sporting and financial reasons even if the internationals bring in the lion's share of the income.

by Pete330v2 Fri 24 Oct 2014, 6:21 pm

Hey Alkmaar, what a game to pop your Ravespan cherry with.
Prepare to be addicted, Ravers is the best sportsground in the country in my very biased opinion and the Toulon followers are the loudest Smile

Have a great day !!!!!

SUFTUM

by Guest Fri 24 Oct 2014, 7:28 pm

toml wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I'm a bit surprised McCloskey has been dropped. Other than that it's as expected.

Black is doing his best not to laugh in the video, Deccie looks different, and Best looks weird.

McCloskey is a 12, Olding is a 12 (and I would contend our best centre) and Payne is 13 full stop.

3 into 2 and all that.

I think McCloskey has a bit of development left before he is near test standard, he has probably been flying under the radar of opposing teams up to the Leicester game and benefitted to an extent of being a surprise package. My gut instinct is that he will be a good player for us, but maybe not at the top level. I hope he proves me wrong!

I think Olding has the higest potential ability ceiling of all our backs and feel he should be getting plenty of gametime so he can resume his development. I love his nimbleness to get through gaps and his distribution. He reminds me of another Irish centre I can't quite remember the name of.

Humphreys seems like a good Hail Mary option on the bench, especially if it is a physical match and Toulon start to tire.

We really need to develop a 2nd scrum half capable at this level. The drop from Ruan to P affects our team performance too greatly.

On another note, it is funny how we questioned the wisdom of bringing in Ludik rather than another openside. We assumed he was coming to be a utility back. Seems more obvious that he was brought in to replace Jared Payne the 15, who we are unlikely to see much of again.

Our depth in the backrow is undoubtably very thin (can Stevie not be given wolverines power of healing?), and with both 8s about 32 I wonder what the future planning in that area is
(Correction- Roger is 33 and Nick about to turn 31)

McCloskey and Olding are 12s, yes, however, that's not to say either will not take the 13 shirt in time. I would like to see both tried together as a centre pairing at some point. Payne is a 13 for this game, and possibly a couple of games in the AIs. Beyond that, I don't know, but I suspect he is not the answer to Schmidts conundrum of a centre pairing. The difficulty I have with Payne at 13 for Ulster is that he has shown to be a far better 15, thus far, as well as the fact that we have others who can do just as good a job at 13 as Payne, including Ludik. It doesn't make sense.
I think many strongly suspected that Ludik was being brought in to replace Payne at 15, and as Notch comments, there are those, like me, who hold that it would have been much better to invest in cover for the backrow.
Sadly Ferris is without the wolverine powers of recovery. Only Best has that particular gift.....

..... and Deccie Fitz ....... Run

by ME-109 Fri 24 Oct 2014, 10:54 pm

Just back from the game (thanks to the nephew for driving) and before I head over to the Munster/Sarries thread can I just say I wish you the best of luck tomorrow against Toulon. I am fully expecting you to hammer the shoite out of them....a 5-0 points differential would do the business. The torch has been passed...dont drop it.

by Guest Fri 24 Oct 2014, 11:01 pm

Thanks, ME. Delighted to see you beat Sarries! Very Happy

by ME-109 Fri 24 Oct 2014, 11:05 pm

Unfortunately I am going to miss the game tomorrow...hope to pick up the highlights later.....I saw the game last weekend and if you play like you did in the second half you will win...no doubt.....

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 25 Oct 2014, 3:12 pm

Our pack is seriously lacking in quality at the minute, there is very little firepower. Of course there are some injuries in the engine room, but in the back row we just lack quality which is why we needed to sign a good 6/7/8 option rather than Ludik (as has been alluded to many times already). Add in problems at half pack without Pienaar, and that is why our back-line will never be as dangerous as it should.

We have serious quality from 10-15. If we can't use them properly (which we currently can't) then that is exactly why players like Luke Marshall or Stuart McCloskey are needed in the centres. Unfortunately Olding was physically outmatched against Toulon where a big player like Marshall would offer more stability in both defence and going forward. Or McCloskey.

Also, I don't know why Craig Gilroy was getting some criticism last week, because he is easily our most dangerous runner in the back three. Even without much room to work with, he almost always beats the first man. We need to use players like him properly, but unfortunately without a good platform to work from, it will prove very difficult. Again this is why Trimble will be always be better for the style of game Ulster are currently playing.

by clivemcl Sat 25 Oct 2014, 3:26 pm

So we had a great opportunity. Williams got too tempted by the possibility of an overlap and made a pass that someone of his position and ability should not be making. Head down Nick. Make a metre or two, quick ball and then who knows.

What could have made it 16-13 instead became 23-6 because of NickWilliams playing high risk (and not for the first time since he came on). I'm a big fan of Nick, but he does cost us badly at times. Its just a pity Roger Wilson is a bit of a pansy by comparison (solid but hardly ferocious).

But apart from that howler, lets talk about what cost us that game.

One thing cost us that game more than any other - the breakdown. Yes we might have won two or three turnovers but how many did Toulon win? We were totally taken apart at the breakdown. We had forwards taking contact in isolation and Toulon were there in a flash with hands on without protest from our pack for the majority of the game.

Is everyone still convinced about Doak?

The performances this season are a big step backward IMO from Anscombe's reign. Injuries or no.

by Pete330v2 Sat 25 Oct 2014, 3:43 pm

Absolutely agree Clive. Doak will underwhelm IMO.

by Sin é Sat 25 Oct 2014, 4:07 pm

I haven't watched the game yet, but commiserations Ulster. You were up against it anyway with so many key injuries (like Pienaar & Henderson).

Don't give up yet though.

by Pete330v2 Sat 25 Oct 2014, 4:10 pm

Na Sin é we're truely fecked in europe bar some weird and wild results.

by Sin é Sat 25 Oct 2014, 4:13 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:Na Sin é we're truely fecked in europe bar some weird and wild results.

Just don't give up ... you just never know what can happen because of the permutations of the groups.

by marty2086 Sat 25 Oct 2014, 4:35 pm

clivemcl wrote:

One thing cost us that game more than any other - the breakdown. Yes we might have won two or three turnovers but how many did Toulon win? We were totally taken apart at the breakdown. We had forwards taking contact in isolation and Toulon were there in a flash with hands on without protest from our pack for the majority of the game.

Toulon consistently were getting tacklers on Ulsters side and getting up slowing down the support getting in there. Nothing illegal about it but Ulster didn't address it at any point.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 25 Oct 2014, 5:36 pm

FAR too early to complain about Doak.. come on guys.

by **Notch** Sat 25 Oct 2014, 5:49 pm

clivemcl wrote:Is everyone still convinced about Doak?

The performances this season are a big step backward IMO from Anscombe's reign. Injuries or no.

Don't be silly. Anscombe didn't have to deal with the player departures we had over the summer and had a very strong captain in Muller who carried a lot of the load in terms of who was really leading the team. Everyone outside the province expected things to fall apart with those departures and we've done well to have a strong start in the league. We had a non-performance in Leicester but we had the same thing under Anscombe with a much more experienced team in key games like the Pro12 semi-final last year and the ERC quarter-final a year before. Today it was just a case of beaten by the better team. It wasn't the structures that cost us, or the tactics or selection. It was that Toulon had better players available to them. Wouldn't put it down to coaching, it was just a mismatch given the new pack and new back line which is still gelling up against the very settled European champions.

Finally, Doak is on probation in a sense. We know Les Kiss is coming in after the RWC as Director of Rugby so it's not like Doak is under pressure for his job- if he does well, he'll retain lots of responsibility for selection etc. with Kiss as an overseer. If it goes wrong we'll see Kiss take on more responsibility for the first team. But Doak will have the same job title and contract; whatever happens he'll be a part of the coaching team and be called Head Coach. What he's fighting for is exactly what that role means once Kiss comes back. The amount to which Kiss calls the shots on the rugby side is probably down to how well Doak does in the interim.

There's no point in saying you have doubts about Doak, because he'll stay with Ulster either way and if the season does go badly from here on we are bringing back Les Kiss anyway. So no changes on the horizon, just stability- which we need!

I think Doak is a very good coach- but this is his first job in the big chair so it's wait and see. Mark McCall is a similarly very gifted and talented coach who did badly for us in his first job. I don't think Doak will repeat his mistakes, but the situation is ideal because Doak will have a Director of Rugby to mentor him in a years time again so we can allow him to grow as a coach. We should give him time, there have been a hell of a lot of big changes overnight in Ulster Rugby and it's a bit unreasonable to expect them to have no effect. I have been pleased with a lot of our season and am pretty optimistic we can challenge for the Pro12 title this year.

by clivemcl Sat 25 Oct 2014, 6:27 pm

Hold in here. I'm not calling for his head. Not at all. But Notches post smacks of homegrown favouritism and leniancy. I mean if we had hired a reputable name would we be talking about him learning and developing whilst in the role?

As for the Muller thing, I'm getting a bit tired of this narrative. Yes he was influential but I really don't buy it that 14 other talented professionals somehow require a charismatic person to make them do the business in a champions cup game. Don't put this down to the loss of Muller.

I'm not setting up a 'Doak Out' group like, I'm just saying let's not make him immune to criticism just because he's one of our own.

by Pete330v2 Sat 25 Oct 2014, 6:56 pm

clivemcl wrote:Hold in here. I'm not calling for his head. Not at all. But Notches post smacks of homegrown favouritism and leniancy. I mean if we had hired a reputable name would we be talking about him learning and developing whilst in the role?

As for the Muller thing, I'm getting a bit tired of this narrative. Yes he was influential but I really don't buy it that 14 other talented professionals somehow require a charismatic person to make them do the business in a champions cup game. Don't put this down to the loss of Muller.

I'm not setting up a 'Doak Out' group like, I'm just saying let's not make him immune to criticism just because he's one of our own.

+1

Without some of our most influential players and with Payne stifled at 13 we were never going to do that well today but we'll see what Doak does with a full contingent and the IRFU ending the Payne project. If he can't get a performance out of Ulster by then I'll have given up on him.

by The Great Aukster Sat 25 Oct 2014, 9:21 pm

An indicator of a coach's tactical ability is how his teams perform after half time. The first half relies on the players to execute the plans and if they're not working there needs to be leaders on the pitch to know what to do. Ulster didn't know how to close out the half at 9-3 and that was nothing to do with the coach.

by ME-109 Sat 25 Oct 2014, 9:46 pm

Hard luck today..as sin e said dont give up. Scarlets have won so there is an opportunity there. Small but still possible

by clivemcl Sat 25 Oct 2014, 9:56 pm

Ah Aukster, come on now, how does pitch leadership prevent that try from Toulon before half time?

I don't think 'plan' or 'strategy' ever goes against the basic principle of securing the breakdown and not taking an isolated carry...

by Standulstermen Sat 25 Oct 2014, 10:20 pm

Can we please give over about Payne. It's not Jared Payne that's costing us games. We were physically beaten up today. That's it. It's depressing from an ulster pov because you can't look at one or two players at present, but rather the collective and just say we are not good enough.

by toml Sat 25 Oct 2014, 11:16 pm

We were up against a different caliber of team today. Toulon are probably better than most national teams.
The biggest shame is that they are a bought team by some fella who makes comic books. They definately wouldn't be solvent without him. I think it would be silly to bet on anyone else.
C'est la vie

by **Notch** Sat 25 Oct 2014, 11:23 pm

clivemcl wrote:Notches post smacks of homegrown favouritism and leniancy. I mean if we had hired a reputable name would we be talking about him learning and developing whilst in the role?

Eh... of course not. But if we hired a reputable name it wouldn't be his first ever job as Head Coach. Being reputable literally means they have a reputation based on previous jobs. Doak does not have that. This is Doaks first job of Head Coach so of course the standards are different compared to someone coming in with loads of prior experience of being Head Coach.

Of course someone who is promoted to Head Coach for the first time in their career will be learning and developing on the job! No matter how ready and deserving of it they are its a big step up in level. Complaining about me saying that is like saying its home grown favouritism and leniency to judge Warwick or McCloskey to a different standard as Ruan Pienaar- you might be more lenient to the first two because they have far less experience, not because they are local. And before you give out about the job going to someone promoted from within- thats why we have also appointed a long-term Director of Rugby with international experience to work above him.

As for the Muller thing, it's no secret that we lost the guts of our tight five and the team is still gelling with a lot of changes in personnel and a loss of many experienced players. We lost our captain and chief lineout caller and 2/3 of our front row while the necessary signings in the back row were not made; following that we lost probably two of our three first choice locks to injury, so it's not a surprise we are struggling to match the likes of Toulon up front. What has been brilliant is the predicted weakness up front has been nowhere near as bad as feared and we can actually dominate most teams in the Pro12 in that area. I don't think we are weak up front as while we have little real physicality, we are exceptionally well drilled which makes up for it against most teams in the Pro12. But we all thought that our pack would be too lightweight to get our backs good enough ball to play with against the very best packs of forwards before Doak was even appointed or his name was in the frame. Before the season even began we thought that. So thats not a surprise or something that can be laid at his door either.

Honestly think you are just upset about the result and are moaning for the sake of moaning without thinking it through or looking at the big picture, which is that with a lot of new players and disruption in the pack and the backs- and with injuries to key players never mind a new coaching staff- it will take time before we can judge any of the coaches and its too soon for a diagnosis. Anscombe inherited a team that had been built by others and was coming off a European Cup final, the team was entering its two peak years and he failed to deliver with everything going his way. Doak inherited a team where a lot of key players had moved on and new, untested players were in their place instead. Apples and oranges.

There are no excuses to be made, and the above shouldn't be read as excuses. But there are reasons why this result wasn't a big surprise, and why its premature to point fingers at anybody. And our league form offers many bright shoots too. I've only been really frustrated with the performances against Leicester and Zebre which were bad.

by clivemcl Sat 25 Oct 2014, 11:46 pm

I don't know how you think that's a reasonable response/excuse. What business in the world would give somebody a job with the attitude of 'It'll take him a season or two to be able to do it well?'

If he wasn't up to, maybe we should have hired someone who was?

Or sure will we just go ahead and play our academy players with the same attitude of 'sure give it a while?'.

There are a few reasons why we have not performed well.

Injuries to Tuohy/Henderson/Pienaar/Trimble and others have not been helpful. Losing Muller might have a small effect (but IMO it shouldn't) , losing Afoa changed nothing, losing Ferris changed nothing.

We gained Olding back from injury, we seen McCloskey step up really well, we have a better backup at 10 (who we needed when Jackson and Pienaar were unavailable v Glasgow) , we have solid players in Herbst and VDM, we have Ludik who has been top notch.

I'm struggling to see how we can just shrug and say 'well, lets be honest we were never going to do much this season were we?'

Ulster over the last 3/4 years have given me as a supporter some high (and reasonable) expectations. So when I see a let down, I'm going to call it a let down.

That matchday squad should have done much much better. Same last weekend.

Is it the players not giving as much of a toss?

Are the players really so apathetic because they don't have a charismatic speaker on the pitch?

Or has the coaching gone backwards from Anscombe to Doak?

If you answer is 'Yes but hopefully only temporarily', I would respond by saying, why? Why should we accept that downgrade in ability as a club with our record in both league and europe over the past four seasons?

by **Notch** Sun 26 Oct 2014, 12:18 am

If you think the players didn't give a toss today, that is pathetic and says more about you than them. Apathetic? The effort was faultless from the players today. They worked very hard in defence and in attack. That comment is not only disrespectful to their effort but also incredibly stupid. So thats a bad start.

Nobody is shrugging and saying we weren't going to do much this season. I still expect us to target winning the Pro12 this year. But there is a massive difference between last weeks performance which was unacceptable and an underperformance and this weeks in which we gave it everything but didn't have enough. Last week wasn't good enough from the players in terms of performance; this week we just did not have the physicality in our team to match them. I knew we needed to get 4 wins against Leicester and the Scarlets because we simply do not have the squad to match Toulon. We can beat them on a good day but it was always a long shot. So I did not expect much from us in Europe once we lost last week, or even before, because I knew we had a tough group and it would take us a number of months to hit our stride with so many changes in the summer.

In case you haven't noticed we actually are playing our academy players in big games and saying sure give it a while. Warwick is basically an academy player- Carl Hayman who he was up against today has played in many more internationals than Warwick has played matches for Ulster. Alan O'Connor is an Academy player, McCloskey is again an academy player just recently bumped up to a development contract- none of those three are on full contracts. Clive Ross on the bench has never played more than 20 minutes in a competitive professional game. Olding only signed his first non-development contract last year. Thats what Doak has to work with as opposed to Muller and Afoa with World Cup medals etc. Court who had been around the block, having Wallace and Ferris in the dressing room as senior players. That extra experience counts on the big occasions like today, as does the absence of our more athletic and physical second rows. It's an extra 1% that is telling. You have to do that with these younger guys- they need game time to develop. They need to learn. We all knew that we reached the end of a cycle last year where we blew our best chance of winning a trophy and we knew that we would have to develop a new team with lots of guys moving on from the group. It doesn't happen overnight. Guys need to get experience and grow from it. It took three or four years building towards last season in terms of getting a team together good enough to challenge in Europe and win the thing, and we blew it against Saracens- it will take three or four more years to get back to where we were.

Regarding Doak, I think he is doing a good job and I don't think it will take a season or two for him to develop. He's ready now but will of course continue to learn and improve. The coaching has not gone backwards (Doak was basically coaching this team under Anscombe anyway) but the quality of player we have in the forwards come the really big games has gone backwards slightly both from guys leaving and injuries... and the amount of experienced players we have in the forwards has decreased. I am pointing out how ludicrous it is for you to expect him to instantly improve the team given he has a much less proven and experienced squad compared to the one Anscombe inherited. I am also pointing out how ludicrous it is to compare him to someone like Jake White (who we could never get by the way). I would also point out that the long-term appointment is not Doak but Les Kiss. Doak is holding the fort for a year, and yes one of the main objectives of this season has to be to develop him as a coach. We made this mistake with McCall- he wasn't instantly successful and fans hounded him out. Now an excellent coach is lost to Irish Rugby. Doak needs to be given time and room to develop for the sake of our long-term future.

If you thought that we were just going to stay at the same level in the European Cup we were at last year after the amount of players we had leave last year and the amount of experience we lost then, yes; you are naive and have unrealistic expectations. You have a right to get angry about games like the one last week at Leicester. That was sloppy, inaccurate and not good enough from any Ulster side. But you have no right to fault the team today when they gave it everything they had and can't be accused of playing badly. They played much closer to their own potential this week but Toulon still had too much physically. Experience counts in the biggest games and we have much less now. We have to take it on the chin and learn from it.

I feel our new signings and our lightweight back row can keep us at the level we were at in the Pro12, and in fact I expect us to improve in the Pro12. Anything but top two there would be extremely disappointing. But I think it will take two or three years for us to build back towards being genuine title contenders in Europe just the same way as it did last time- the step up from Pro12 to Europe shows our pack up.

by clivemcl Sun 26 Oct 2014, 7:40 am

I'm not going to read your comment Notch. If you have the argument, let it stand by itself. Resorting to a Picard emoticon with the implication I'm a buffoon, and then calling me pathetic and stupid, that's not the kind of thing I enjoy reading in my free time. And perhaps it says something about your character if you feel the need to verbally bash somebody up before trying to argue a point.

Long story short. Two losses in europe, and Notch refuses to accept anyone suggesting the coaching may be involved in the results.

He also says the players gave 100% effort.

So apparently we just lost because we aren't good enough. I wish I could accept mediocrity as easily as Notch does.

by **George Carlin** Sun 26 Oct 2014, 8:23 am

clivemcl wrote:I'm not going to read your comment Notch. If you have the argument, let it stand by itself. Resorting to a Picard emoticon with the implication I'm a buffoon, and then calling me pathetic and stupid, that's not the kind of thing I enjoy reading in my free time. And perhaps it says something about your character if you feel the need to verbally bash somebody up before trying to argue a point.

Long story short. Two losses in europe, and Notch refuses to accept anyone suggesting the coaching may be involved in the results.

He also says the players gave 100% effort.

So apparently we just lost because we aren't good enough. I wish I could accept mediocrity as easily as Notch does.

That acceptance is almost second nature if you're Scottish. Very Happy

But seriously, I know that Ulster fans are disappointed but for the sake of balance, please remember how fecked you genuinely are with injuries and the fact that the best team in Europe is in your pool. Ulster will place Top 3 in the Pro 12 this season - I have already put money on it.

by toml Sun 26 Oct 2014, 8:59 am

George Carlin wrote:
clivemcl wrote:I'm not going to read your comment Notch. If you have the argument, let it stand by itself. Resorting to a Picard emoticon with the implication I'm a buffoon, and then calling me pathetic and stupid, that's not the kind of thing I enjoy reading in my free time. And perhaps it says something about your character if you feel the need to verbally bash somebody up before trying to argue a point.

Long story short. Two losses in europe, and Notch refuses to accept anyone suggesting the coaching may be involved in the results.

He also says the players gave 100% effort.

So apparently we just lost because we aren't good enough. I wish I could accept mediocrity as easily as Notch does.
That acceptance is almost second nature if you're Scottish.

But seriously, I know that Ulster fans are disappointed but for the sake of balance, please remember how fecked you genuinely are with injuries and the fact that the best team in Europe is in your pool. Ulster will place Top 3 in the Pro 12 this season - I have already put money on it.

Thanks George, its easy to forget who we have lost through injury and how that affects us. There is another issue with some players form not up to their usual standard - Best has been far better at the breakdown than Henry this year - but normally they are on a par.

Great win for Glasgow in Montpellier! I remember how massive it was for us to go there and get a win. Congrats

by toml Sun 26 Oct 2014, 9:04 am

toml wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
clivemcl wrote:I'm not going to read your comment Notch. If you have the argument, let it stand by itself. Resorting to a Picard emoticon with the implication I'm a buffoon, and then calling me pathetic and stupid, that's not the kind of thing I enjoy reading in my free time. And perhaps it says something about your character if you feel the need to verbally bash somebody up before trying to argue a point.

Long story short. Two losses in europe, and Notch refuses to accept anyone suggesting the coaching may be involved in the results.

He also says the players gave 100% effort.

So apparently we just lost because we aren't good enough. I wish I could accept mediocrity as easily as Notch does.
That acceptance is almost second nature if you're Scottish.

But seriously, I know that Ulster fans are disappointed but for the sake of balance, please remember how fecked you genuinely are with injuries and the fact that the best team in Europe is in your pool. Ulster will place Top 3 in the Pro 12 this season - I have already put money on it.

Thanks George, its easy to forget who we have lost through injury and how that affects us, it has combined with a loss of some players form (Best has been far better at the breakdown than Henry this year - but normally they are on a par) and turnover of players with 4 of the starting pack from last year absent/left and maybe 4 of the starting backs out/dropped

Great win for Glasgow in Montpellier! I remember how massive it was for us to go there and get a win. Congrats

by **George Carlin** Sun 26 Oct 2014, 9:24 am

I also read in the IT that this was only Ulster's second loss at home in the last 18 European pool matches. Perhaps it's just my round, but that glass looks more half full than half empty to me. guinness

by Standulstermen Sun 26 Oct 2014, 9:44 am

The thing is I would say it's the first time we have been seriously outclassed in Europe since the final I think and it's at home which makes it difficult. The worrying thing as I see it is that barring some in house movement from the irfu the squad will be the same next year. We have no NIQ spots to fill and with our Backrow shown up as 2nd rate today that has to be a massive concern.

by SecretFly Sun 26 Oct 2014, 9:50 am

Didn't get to see the game. But the sparse highlights I did get to see suggests to me that the Ulster backs were flailing in defensive duties?

That observation could be completely wrong when viewed in the context of an overall game. But certainly it looked to me like Habana got an easier route through for his try than he should have expected and Ulster players seemed to have held a white flag up before the game ended?

It's not an indictment (saw too little of the game)...it's a question. Were Ulster falling too easily off tackles or finding themselves in positional no-man's-land in defence through the game?

by **Notch** Sun 26 Oct 2014, 10:05 am

clivemcl wrote:I wish I could accept mediocrity as easily as Notch does.

If there's anything I never accept as a fan, its mediocrity. I am constantly demanding improvement of this team. But I only measure them against their own potential. Maybe it hard for you to see from your comfortable spot on your sofa at home, but actually real fans are there at games come rain or shine, win or lose. And when things don't go well you just have to accept that. Coming out and pointing fingers and playing the blame game when we just come up against a side that is better on the day doesn't help anyone. If the players played below their potential and we lost I would be as angry as I was last week. Yesterday, they played as well as you could reasonably expect at this stage in their development as a side and were beaten by a better team. It happens.

Accepting mediocrity and having realistic expectations of how long it's going to take to get back to where we were last season in Europe is two different things. We don't have a magic wand to wave to get back to where we were. Humphreys and Anscombe had a team that was at its peak and they blew the biggest chance we had to win silverware, which was last year. Now we have to rebuild as a side with lots of new players etc. We are in a good position in the Pro12 and there is a lot of untapped potential to build on- it will take time to unlock that potential and complaining about the coaching staff a whole two months into their tenure with a host of new players to accommodate in the team is beyond ludicrous.

I was genuinely furious as a fan with the performances against Zebre and against Leicester, because that is mediocrity. Both those games could have and should have been won Mediocrity is accepting not reaching your own potential. When you play to your own potential and still lose, that is just the reality of sport. To increase the potential of the side takes time and hard work and I, for one, am 100% behind the team as they embark on that journey. I full expect us to reach and surpass where we were last season in the long term, but it will not happen overnight. Not accepting that makes you seem like a spoilt child. Accept mediocrity? Time for you to grow up and accept the reality of where we are as a team and stop whinging that we've gone backwards. We knew that would happen in the summer, now its the coaches and players job to take us forwards again. Get behind them.

by Standulstermen Sun 26 Oct 2014, 10:22 am

SecretFly wrote:Didn't get to see the game. But the sparse highlights I did get to see suggests to me that the Ulster backs were flailing in defensive duties?

That observation could be completely wrong when viewed in the context of an overall game. But certainly it looked to me like Habana got an easier route through for his try than he should have expected and Ulster players seemed to have held a white flag up before the game ended?

It's not an indictment (saw too little of the game)...it's a question. Were Ulster falling too easily off tackles or finding themselves in positional no-man's-land in defence through the game?

Not really. They switched off the last 5 minutes of the first half and the other try was an intercept. There were missed tackled don't get me wrong but I don't think it was an epidemic or anything

by SecretFly Sun 26 Oct 2014, 10:29 am

Standulstermen wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Didn't get to see the game. But the sparse highlights I did get to see suggests to me that the Ulster backs were flailing in defensive duties?

That observation could be completely wrong when viewed in the context of an overall game. But certainly it looked to me like Habana got an easier route through for his try than he should have expected and Ulster players seemed to have held a white flag up before the game ended?

It's not an indictment (saw too little of the game)...it's a question. Were Ulster falling too easily off tackles or finding themselves in positional no-man's-land in defence through the game?

Not really. They switched off the last 5 minutes of the first half and the other try was an intercept. There were missed tackled don't get me wrong but I don't think it was an epidemic or anything

No...thanks for that, Stand. That's all I wanted - an opinion from someone who actually saw the whole game.

Really disappointed for you guys...and for all of us. I felt Toulon would play with much more menace than the first week - those away wins are great incentives. But I really felt Ulster would growl louder at home too and make Toulon's attempts much tighter and tougher

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