Cincy Thread

[The Special Juan]

First topic message reminder :

I didn't even realise the draw had been made.  Murray's got a decent one until the QFs (can we hope Roger and Jo play a 4 hour epic today?), Isner plays Anderson in the first round.  Either a double bagel over a mentally crushed Anderson or 2/3 tiebreaks.  Djokovic could barely have given himself a better draw.  Dimitrov and Stan are draw magnets!!

Draw is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Western_%26_Southern_Open_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_Singles

or

here: http://assets.usta.com/assets/663/15/Mens_Main_Draw.pdf

[Jahu]

Tell me somebody please ... how DID Raonic get to No.7.... did I fall asleep and miss something... 

Because he is a full time player, going deep on most tournies.

Will make the SF of USO too probably...

[Born Slippy]

I think Raonic is probably suffering from a bit of an injury. He was serving at less than 50% first serves and the first serve speed seemed significantly down. That said, for all the talk of improvements, his game is still extremely limited. One win over a top 10 player this year (and that primarily due to a muggish collapse by Murray) shows where his game is at.

[sirfredperry]

This really must be one of the weirdest schedules ever.

With no weather impact there's one semi finished 6 hours ago and the other coming onto Court at 10.30, with the final at 4 tomorrow.

Completely ridiculous scheduling that only happens in America. Everywhere else, if the final is on a Sunday afternoon, BOTH Saturday semis are played in the afternoon. Thankfully, Fed polished off Raonic in next to no time. Ivanovic will suffer, too, in her final due to the Saturday night session. All for TV, presumably.

[The Special Juan]

Oh wow, I did not see that one coming. Well done grandad, you've done us all proud.

[YvonneT]

I did expect it to be a bit closer i.e. that Raonic would hold serve a few more times. Possibly as Born Slippy says, he was impaired somehow, or perhaps the disparity between his better showings against Fed in their first matches was more down to hungry youngster with nothing to prove relishing a go at one of the greatest. Now he has more expectations and something to prove and the problem for big servers is that the serve can be the first thing to go under pressure, leaving them not much at all.

Anyway, I'm sure Fed will win tonight - even with the shorter turnaround. Last week's final was different against an inspired opponent who had cut his own path through a tough draw. Same cannot be said of Ferrer this week.

[lags72]

Tell me somebody please ... how DID Raonic get to No.7.... did I fall asleep and miss something... 

Jahu has I think pretty much covered this already. And I would agree that Raonic has every chance of making the USO semis - to go with the semi he made at Wimbledon (not forgetting a very respectable QF showing at Roland Garros....)

However........ purely in the interests of clarity, worth perhaps reminding ourselves that the ATP rankings system is linked to a mathematical, long-established, and wholly impartial result-based formula determined by points earned and/or dropped in tournaments contested throughout the course of the season.

It's just possible that at some stage in the future the methodology may be amended to take account of individual players who happen to be approved/disapproved of by Haddie-nuff (or by myself ......or indeed by any other forum member....)  - whether for their personalities, on-court dress sense, playing style, volley skills, or all-round entertainment and spectator value. But in all honesty, I can't see such a change to the system being introduced any time soon.

I could be wrong of course .........  

[YvonneT]

I don't think there was the need there for such heavy sarcasm. lags. It's a fair question - not because he lost fairly easily last night (happens to everyone at some point including Federer, Nadal & Djokovic) but because of his limited game. And yes, we have discussed the answer - he's fairly consistent and hence has taken advantage of some good draws, poor form and injury of others to get there. None of this is to argue with the way the rankings are done, but still I think his ranking is rather flattering to him really.

[Henman Bill]

Raonic has power, and a solid game, and a reasonably good already game, and is often mentally cool. #7 is a long way from #1.

So, I'm thinking we shouldn't think too much about the 15-0. Federer has declined vs his peak level for the most of the 15, while Ferrer doesn't seem to know the meaning of the word.

Federer has reached a stage of his career when he's started having defeats to players he wouldn't normally lose to, even people at the same age who should be declining along with him, e.g Robredo.

Ferrer managed to take a set off him in Canada and he will be super consistent while with Federer, who knows.

I think this is 70/30 in Federer's favour rather than the 100/0 suggested by the head to head.

Rather lucky for Fed that after blowing it last week another reasonably easy (ish) set of opponents for a masters series this week.!

[lydian]

Yes it was a little too sarcastic lags...it was a fair question. Why...because Raonic has only beaten 1 top10 player all year...guess who? Yep Murray. Yes he's going deep often but only won Washington last week by virtue of not facing anyone ranked higher than 36! And that gave him 500 points, not 250. Has an ATP500 event ever been won more easily? Take Raonic's serve away, which Fed (and most of the top guys) does, and you're left with a top 75 player at best.

Raonic himself said yesterday: "I have to figure out how to step up against the top guys". Nuff said.

Murray still hasn't beaten a top10 player all year which is curious given he is one...plus he hasn't won a title for well over a year now. That's getting to be a serious stat that could harm his ranking of USO is a washout for him.

BTW, today's final is the oldest Masters final pairing in the Open Era...and the only one with over 30s finalists in the Open Era too. Will Roger be the oldest Cincy winner, er no...Agassi was 34 years old in 2004 when he won it.

[lags72]

Well fair comment YvonneT, I do understand it would have come across as sarcasm ; but I would also say that this was not my primary intention, and in all honesty it was my own light-hearted way of making a serious point.

This is not just about Raonic. Not for the first time we see a player being derided for achieving a ranking higher than some (perhaps even many...) believe he 'deserves'. But the system is, without question, based purely in merit and I for one would not want it any other way.

I am inclined to agree that Raonic has had some 'favourable' draws just recently. But the seventh place he now occupies was there for the taking by any other player who was keen & motivated enough to move up the rankings. Except .....the many others now below Raonic simply did not perform as well as he has. So ....credit where credit is due I say - however limited, uninspired, robotic, or less than exciting his game might be.

I can remember being surprised myself when the likes of Almagro and Tipsarevic (just random examples that spring to mind...) made it into the Top Ten. But they didn't stay for long, and when all said & done it's about proving consistency over time. And so it will be with Raonic, who will now stand or fall by his future achievements rather than those of the last few months or so.

Same rules for everyone. Nobody forces us to actually watch Raonic, or to sing his praises - or indeed those of any other player. But let's not slag off the guy purely for doing what is asked of him once a tourney gets underway.

[lags72]

lydian - interesting that Federer will be (just) behind Agassi as the next oldest Cincy winner IF he completes the job later today. But I hope it's not an omen. After that last of his Masters wins by Andre, he would end his career with just a solitary further title. It was in Los Angeles - a 250 event only, that was removed from the calendar after 2012.

(I read that Rosewall was even older when he won Cincy .....but that was almost half a century ago when tennis, and the world in general, was a whole lot different from today .....)

Meanwhile, hope you can relate (in part at least) to my additional comments re Raonic etc.

[lags72]

I think this is 70/30 in Federer's favour rather than the 100/0 suggested by the head to head.

Rather lucky for Fed that after blowing it last week another reasonably easy (ish) set of opponents for a masters series this week.!

By 'lucky' I suppose you mean that nobody else in the respective fields was a) good enough to actually beat Federer or b) good enough to progress and at least give themselves a shot at beating him - ie, other than JWT so far over the course of the two events. Whose fault might that be, I wonder ......  

Agree with your assessment of Ferrer's prospects - he looked in great shape once again last night and the streak will surely come to an end at some point ......  won't it .....??? It just needs Federer to have an off day, and those are undoubtedly becoming more & common, as you say. Hardly surprising  after around 1300 tour matches on the clock........

[bogbrush]

If Ferrer can't win this, with the huge scheduling advantage, he'll never beat him.

[Haddie-nuff]

Well fair comment YvonneT, I do understand it would have come across as sarcasm ; but I would also say that this was not my primary intention, and in all honesty it was my own light-hearted way of making a serious point.

This is not just about Raonic. Not for the first time we see a player being derided for achieving a ranking higher than some (perhaps even many...) believe he 'deserves'. But the system is, without question, based purely in merit and I for one would not want it any other way.

I am inclined to agree that Raonic has had some 'favourable' draws just recently. But the seventh place he now occupies was there for the taking by any other player who was keen & motivated enough to move up the rankings. Except .....the many others now below Raonic simply did not perform as well as he has. So ....credit where credit is due I say - however limited, uninspired, robotic, or less than exciting his game might be.

I can remember being surprised myself when the likes of Almagro and Tipsarevic (just random examples that spring to mind...) made it into the Top Ten. But they didn't stay for long, and when all said & done it's about proving consistency over time. And so it will be with Raonic, who will now stand or fall by his future achievements rather than those of the last few months or so.

Same rules for everyone. Nobody forces us to actually watch Raonic, or to sing his praises - or indeed those of any other player. But let's not slag off the guy purely for doing what is asked of him once a tourney gets underway.

Whilst I realise that this debate on Raonic was purely because of the comment I made.about his position in the rankings ... his route to the semi finals could not be considered a hard slog.. my opinion is not based on whether I like the look of him lags and frankly I find that insulting.. he was labled as the next Sampras when he came onto the circuit some two three years ago and I have yet to see signs of that... when I think of the stick that Ferrer has received on 606 in the past it totally  irks me to think he was labled as being the man that succeeded in spite of having no talent.. he has proven everyone wrong in that respect.  He has earned his ticket over this last couple of years and no matter how many times he gets beaten by Fed his attitude when he goes on court is maybe this time.  Raonic didnt even look like he felt he could win. Anyone including me could have beaten Foginini the other day when he was in one of his "I cant be bothered to be here modes"
Raonic gifted that match to Federer last night... how ever well you believe that Federer played.. Raonic could hardly return Feds serve... you consider he is worthy of a No.7. ranking... your opinion and you are obviously entitled to it... as for me "come back Berdych all is forgiven" at least with him there are no great expectations.

[The Special Juan]

Federer's backhand - the most exploited "weakness" in sport?

[kingraf]

two bloody brilliant passes from Ferru there.

[The Special Juan]

Ah Daveed if you're getting 3 second serves on 3/4 BPs then you need to take advantage.

[Jahu]

Come on Fed, spit him like a bad spanish wine   

[The Special Juan]

People who hold up these "peRFect" signs should be ejected from the stadium and beaten with them.

[Jahu]

Hahahahha.

TSJ dont be a bitter lemon.

[The Special Juan]

Well the next time Andy's playing I'll go to the stadium and hold up a sign saying "shAMbolic". Other players need in on this too.

[Jahu]

Fed to lose the set now.

[The Special Juan]

Finally. 1/7 taken...

[The Special Juan]

You'll get bagelled by Daveed!! Bagelled by Daaaaaaaaaveed. You'll get bagelled by Daveed...

[Jahu]

Bagel approaching....

[Jahu]

1 bagel, equal to at least 5 matches, so 10:0 new score h2h.

[kingraf]

If Roger gets bagelled by Daveed, I'll believe that life really does reward you if you hang in long enough. This is now a philosophical matter

[Jahu]

Feds ego will be melted like a swiss chocolate. For a day at least.

[Jahu]

Ferrer flying.

Hold your serve you *****

[The Special Juan]

Booooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!! One does not simply bagel Federer, though.

[Jahu]

Saved. Stick is better anyway.

[Jahu]

Dont waste energey now Fed. Leave it and get ready to serve on third set.

[kingraf]

Sanctimonious Federer fans should look away now... Federer just took a bathroom break having lost a set...

Gamesmanship?

[Jahu]

Match of the year so far.

[The Special Juan]

Hmmm. The signs that Federer was getting right back into the match were evident at the tail end of that set. He's still going to win it.

[Jahu]

King, yes how dare he. He had no balls in second set, meaning its suspicious where the fluid got collected?

[Jahu]

Fed saves another potential bagel by going up 1:0.

[The Special Juan]

Ferrer should hit more first serves. Match over?

[summerblues]

Two more games, hopefully Fed can do it.

[Jahu]

omgOAT.

What a shot.

[summerblues]

omgOAT.

What a shot.

+1

[The Special Juan]

Maybe I'm seeing things or maybe it's the court speed but Ferrer looks to have lost a bit of acceleration from the last time I saw him...

[Jahu]

Ferrer is more sexy then Nadal.

[Jahu]

Again.

Feds new strategy: win a set, sleep, win a match.

[The Special Juan]

Reminiscent of the first game of the 2nd set...

[Jahu]

Just serve, just serve, just serve

[Henman Bill]

If Ferrer can't win this, with the huge scheduling advantage, he'll never beat him.

Not so sure about this. I think Ferrer has 1 win over Federer before they both retire...if not perhaps today then a Federer off day on a slower surface maybe.

[Jahu]

Fed is actually sweating these 2 weeks. He is becoming normal as he ages.

[The Special Juan]

Final of the 2018 Wimbledon Championships....

[kingraf]

It's just a poor match up for Dave. Lot like Nadal-veredasco, but I don't think Dave is going to catch Roger on a surface Roger absolutely detests

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