A truly sad day for rugby...

First topic message reminder :

Last year while living and working in Edinburgh I came across a training camp, for juniors, and sat and watched for a while. I noticed a few Scotland and Edinburgh shirts, an England shirt, a Welsh shirt, and a kiwi shirt. Then I noticed the 10 was wearing a Toulon shirt, I thought little of it at the time, but as it stayed with me for a few days I kept thinking about it, it isn't a good sight to see a 14 yr old lad, at a Scottish training camp, trying to impress wearing a French club rugby jersey.

I could forgive that, despite the shirt being quite generic and boring, I have seen Stade shirts for years, so just put it down to Toulons stature, and the fact they have plenty of British players.

Then a few days ago while in Bristol I saw a few kids (15/16) in the city centre, 2 of the 3 were wearing Toulon shirts, and the 3rd an England shirt. On the back of the first child was written Jones, I'm guessing his own surname) the 2nd child had Wilkinson on his, makes sense as Jonny is the English and Toulon hero, however the 3rd child with the England shirt on had the name Basteraud. Now it could've been his own surname, however he didn't look like a Basteraud, and was clearly English through his accent.

Again this got me to thinking, now that the PRL and LNR virtually own the new european comp, and the RFU and FFR are looking less likely to control rugby union, are we seeing the first signs of a champions league style culture, where there is the dominant league that attracts players from all over the world, and the lesser leagues that essentially feed into the dominant league?

Toulons grip and brand have been boosted by huge success, plowed with an unlimited cash source, are now exposed to larger audiences, on a higher scale than ever before, and are starting to attract the eye of British children. Are we seeing the start of the death of international rugby? Is rugby going down the Football route of the haves get the lot and the have nots feed off the scraps?

Is it a sad time when british children would rather where French or English club shirts, they have no affiliation with whatsoever, over their own local clubs, or national shirts? Is this what this new competition is aimed at doing? Creating a champions league type structure where fans will support the few teams who can afford to compete, and succeed, because of a lack of choice?

How would kiwi rugby fans feel if their children started walking down the street wearing Bulls shirts?
How would SA fans feel watching their kids wearing Waratahs kits?
How would Aussie fans feel if their kids started supporting the Crusaders?

I've been pretty critical about this new competition, pretty much because it takes rugby a step closer to football, and is a step closer to taking the power away from unions and ultimately the international game. We've already seen a direct result in French rugby, the poor form of the national team has to be effected by the clubs actions, and therefore the national team is losing support while the club game picks it up, will this begin to happen in England also, some could argue the success of the Aviva has coincided with the poor performing England team which has lacked competitiveness since the early 2000's.

I could possibly be going overboard, but as the rise in club shirt appearances soars in the UK, my opinion on the club game, power struggle and new comp just gets worse, maybe I should move with the times and select an English or French club to support so I have some sort of involvement in rugby?!

Chunky Norwich wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Toulon make €31M a year and Mourad hasn't put any money in for years.

http://www.rugbydump.com/2014/01/3565/toulon-chairman-mourad-boudjellal-on-building-the-champion-club

Exsactly. It's just a lazy stereotype to label them rich playthings. Born from jealousy perhaps?

In fairness, they get an average attendance of about 18.5K at home games, so that helps the sponsorship & marketing drive  

Hammer - he now bullies other people to put money into his club.

Neutralee you don't need to like Mourad to admire his passion for Toulon and his goals Doesn't necessarily mean I want him to succeed by the way.

What would Toulon be without Mourad? At least it's given this little town in the south of France   a sense of identity and importance.

Everyone should watch that video by the way. Busts open a few Toulon myths

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCqpLCKjHMA

'Granted Toulon have things in their favour such as the Local Goverment fund, but what they have done is a massive success story and is not based on "chucking money" at it. More forming stable partnerships with businesses'

'That's because they've EARNED those millions. It is not Boulledjal's private money. This is a fact SO MANY people get wrong.'

Are these not your quotes, how exactly, if lets say your right and Boudjellal has only put in 600k per season   did Toulon earn that 600k?

Let me just table where I am coming from, I don't claim to be an expert on european rugby, I find this whole debacle fascinating as it's going to determine how the sport progresses from here on in, therefore if the sport, and influencial peoples actions take a route of commercialism, where the global brand deteriorates, or the international game is under threat I generally take the side of the underdog. I have no official feelings toward Toulon, or any other side in europe, well except munster and Exeter who I have a soft spot for.

The reasoning I am using is from things ive read, direct quotes from Boudjellal, and figures ive found. Now from my POV, it looks like Boudjellal is happy to bend rules, use legal loopholes and generally do what he has to do to make Toulon a world power, and the name in rugby union, which in itself isn't that bad, however the way in which he has gone about it (man city esque) and the way he is attempting to change the structure of the game is not going to help the game, it is going to create a chasm between the haves and have nots.

Rugby is elitist enough as it is, if we go down this route the game is going to suffer!

Now you get to argue your case against a global all inclusive sport, that every nation can get a shot at success...

Neutralee wrote:'Granted Toulon have things in their favour such as the Local Goverment fund, but what they have done is a massive success story and is not based on "chucking money" at it. More forming stable partnerships with businesses'

'That's because they've EARNED those millions. It is not Boulledjal's private money. This is a fact SO MANY people get wrong.'

Are these not your quotes, how exactly, if lets say your right and Boudjellal has only put in 600k per season   did Toulon earn that 600k?

None of Toulon's budget this year is his money.
None of Toulon's budget the year before was his money.

He gradually built the brand up from 2006(?) spending what he could afford, which was about 600k a year into an amazing rugby brand that has a turnover of 31m year.

Boooooooooooo. Hissss. nasty French.

Let me just table where I am coming from, I don't claim to be an expert on european rugby, I find this whole debacle fascinating as it's going to determine how the sport progresses from here on in, therefore if the sport, and influencial peoples actions take a route of commercialism, where the global brand deteriorates, or the international game is under threat I generally take the side of the underdog. I have no official feelings toward Toulon, or any other side in europe, well except munster and Exeter who I have a soft spot for.

The reasoning I am using is from things ive read, direct quotes from Boudjellal, and figures ive found. Now from my POV, it looks like Boudjellal is happy to bend rules, use legal loopholes and generally do what he has to do to make Toulon a world power, and the name in rugby union, which in itself isn't that bad, however the way in which he has gone about it (man city esque) and the way he is attempting to change the structure of the game is not going to help the game, it is going to create a chasm between the haves and have nots.

Rugby is elitist enough as it is, if we go down this route the game is going to suffer!

Now you get to argue your case against a global all inclusive sport, that every nation can get a shot at success...

Again, that is complete nonsense.

Man City esque? You're havin' a laugh. You've just been given evidence after evidence, and have come up with none of your own, yet you still can't grasp the reality.

Can you tell em which rules he has bent? He adheres to each and every one as far as I can see.

Chunky Norwich wrote:It just shows that some people have an entrenched mindset that equates to -
team comes from 2nd division now has loads of money and best players in the world = must equal rich playthings

Having been down there I agree with you. They have 3 things in Toulon. Boats, Sun and Rugby. They are surrounded by some of the poshest towns in Europe and are a fairly working class town.

I admire what they have built. Goes to show that not all "sugar daddies" are bad. The guy behind Exeter seems like a gent too. Even Nigel Wray (who comes across as an arrogant tw*t) has been behind Saracens since the dawn of the pro era and has not walked away despite the failure to build a big fan base.

Yerman Mourad is a nutjob though.... Just maybe not always in a bad way

Neutralee to be honest rugby union has always been pretty elite.

Look at the tri nations - only recently they've let Argentina into their competition.
6 nations - still an exclusive club (Italy haven't been part of it for that long)
HC -dominated by Irish,English and French clubs - will this new competition change things? Probalby not.

It's a bit hypocritical of certain countries to talk about being more inclusive when they don't do it themselves!

I don't see many of the elite countries fighting hard for the rights of the likes of Belgium,German,Romanian rugby etc.

The Welsh don't help themselves with their poor policies of not protecting their players plus all the infighting with the union vs the clubs.

I am sure the Scottish and Italians could do more to protect their own interests but don't do enough.

The Irish - it's about looking after no 1. Same with England,France,NZ,South Africa,Australia etc.

Mourad is just looking after his own interests as everyone is.

The likes of Scotland and Wales got free slices of the pie for so long - it's their fault that they didn't make the most of it.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:It just shows that some people have an entrenched mindset that equates to -
team comes from 2nd division now has loads of money and best players in the world = must equal rich playthings

Having been down there I agree with you. They have 3 things in Toulon. Boats, Sun and Rugby. They are surrounded by some of the poshest towns in Europe and are a fairly working class town.

I admire what they have built. Goes to show that not all "sugar daddies" are bad. The guy behind Exeter seems like a gent too. Even Nigel Wray (who comes across as an arrogant tw*t) has been behind Saracens since the dawn of the pro era and has not walked away despite the failure to build a big fan base.

Yerman Mourad is a nutjob though.... Just maybe not always in a bad way

Funny that Nigel Wray is portrayed as an arrogant tw*t I have had the pleasure of meeting him on more than one occasion and I can assure you I would never describe him in that way. Oh and I don't wear Saracens spectacles all the time - I know that not everything is rosy at Saracens - it's the good, the bad and the ugly down there!

Fair enough mate. I don't know the guy. Arrogant tw*tness seems to be dripping off the guy in interviews.

Having said that, I felt the same about Larry Dayglow and was very surprised when I met him. In a good way.

As I said I admire Wray for sticking around. The worst thing about "sugar daddies" is when they feck off with their money leaving the club in limbo. Usually a big fall from grace for the club.

So Boudjellals quotes directly oppose yours with regards to using his own money, and it's me who is presented with facts?

Every publication over the last few years have used man city as an example of Toulons progress;

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/2014/0406/607055-live-toulon-v-leinster/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9590495/Foreign-legion-entrusted-with-bringing-glory-to-Toulon.html
http://www.rugby-talk.com/2014/05/european-rugby-clown-princes-toulon-retain-their-european-crown/

Look 30 seconds and ive found the first 3 articles, from different media and countries.
They are also called the Galacticos refering to Real's liking to signing everyone they like the look of.

Neutralee wrote:So Boudjellals quotes directly oppose yours with regards to using his own money, and it's me who is presented with facts?

Every publication over the last few years have used man city as an example of Toulons progress;

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/2014/0406/607055-live-toulon-v-leinster/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9590495/Foreign-legion-entrusted-with-bringing-glory-to-Toulon.html
http://www.rugby-talk.com/2014/05/european-rugby-clown-princes-toulon-retain-their-european-crown/

Look 30 seconds and ive found the first 3 articles, from different media and countries.
They are also called the Galacticos refering to Real's liking to signing everyone they like the look of.

Help me out, what quotes am I looking for that dispute what I've said.

Beshocked

I did make a poor comparison in Saracens, they seem to have dialled down the experiment in recent years.

And I agree the game is too elitist now, as we all know, but becoming more elitist at every level isn't going to fix that! The 5N and 3N teams have seeled the game off for so long, allowing Argentina in, Italy in, and with the kind of benefits the PI's are now starting to see (still not enough) it looked like the monopoly was at least making some headway, however none of that matters a jot if club rugby stays on it's current path, as it will consume all and reap talent from every corner, eventually taking International rugby off the tabel all together.

Beshocked, there was a Romanian team in the first Heineken Cup season. Its pretty pointless including countries like Belgium etc. into any elite competition when they cannot be competitive.

Its the PRL & Top 14 insisted that the major competition shed the weaker teams and the Pro12 Unions wanted to keep the competition to 24, and not make it more elitist.

Chunky

Don't play dumb now, youve refused to admit the man city comparison from the start, except that the rest of the world uses it as a point of reference. As too with the real madrid comparison.

This guy is a bit of a sociopath, and when it is all well and good to look after ones own interest, of which we all do, this guy has ramped it up to a whole new level. Let me ask a few questions;

1) Lets say Thomas of Cardiff goes the same route, and signs superstars from every corner, how would the Welsh public feel about him playing 2 Welsh men in european games?

2) Would you agree with Leinster calling Alberts, Vermuelan, and Louw european citizens and playing them as IQ players?

3) Team owners from the Rabo started calling the league cheifs racist, and critisized referee's and making accusations about them? How would you perceive this?

4)Peter Thomas after investing millions on playing squad decides his squad now command more revenue than anyone else and demands to change league rules to suit him? How does this resinate with you?

Neutralee yes but you said Saracens mimicked Toulon when it was actually the other way round.

jenifer mcladyboy I assume you mean Lawrence Dallaglio? If so I agree. I have met him once in person and we had a good chat about rugby - he's not as arrogant as he has been portrayed in the media, not as boorish either.

In contrast some players I have been disappointed with when meeting them in person.

Have any of you met Mourad in person? Would be interesting to get a real insight.

beshocked wrote:Neutralee yes but you said Saracens mimicked Toulon when it was actually the other way round.

jenifer mcladyboy I assume you mean Lawrence Dallaglio? If so I agree. I have met him once in person and we had a good chat about rugby - he's not as arrogant as he has been portrayed in the media, not as boorish either.

In contrast some players I have been disappointed with when meeting them in person.

Have any of you met Mourad in person? Would be interesting to get a real insight.

OK then Saracens initially mimic'd Stade, that better?

No I have not met Boudjallel in person, I have no idea what kind of person he is, but based on his actions I can't imagine he is that great. A thought shared by many other club owners and officials in France.

Neutralee it's slightly different because there are 14 French teams and only 4 Welsh teams.

A league would not be able to sustain all clubs being like Toulon because there would be virtually no Frenchman! Basically I don't think anyone wants rugby union to become like the premier league but we are not there yet.

Oh and if Thomas managed to turn Cardiff into a very successful club I am sure they would get some support. Plus what he could do is just bring back all the Welsh players if he had that amount of money to throw at it.

I am sure a super Welsh club with a Welsh core would be much appreciated by Welsh public.

Look at Swansea football. 5 Welshman in the squad.  7 English.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swansea_City_A.F.C.

Neutralee wrote:Chunky

Don't play dumb now, youve refused to admit the man city comparison from the start, except that the rest of the world uses it as a point of reference. As too with the real madrid comparison.

The rest of the world can say what they want. Its freedom of speech. Doesn't make it correct.

This guy is a bit of a sociopath, and when it is all well and good to look after ones own interest, of which we all do, this guy has ramped it up to a whole new level.

Doesn't make any of the thread right or wrong if he is a sociopath.

1) Lets say Thomas of Cardiff goes the same route, and signs superstars from every corner, how would the Welsh public feel about him playing 2 Welsh men in european games?

That wouldn't happen because there would be an agreement (as in the last PA) to have a certain number of Welshmen in match squads. Why are you accusing Toulon of mis-behaving when the French federation set the rules? Vent your fury at them. Toulon are not breaking any rules here.

2) Would you agree with Leinster calling Alberts, Vermuelan, and Louw european citizens and playing them as IQ players?

If it is within the laws then they are not in breach of them. Don't blame clubs for following guidelines.

3) Team owners from the Rabo started calling the league cheifs racist, and critisized referee's and making accusations about them? How would you perceive this?

Not very nice but ultimately has no bearing on the rest of rugby or Toulon's business practice.

4)Peter Thomas after investing millions on playing squad decides his squad now command more revenue than anyone else and demands to change league rules to suit him? How does this resinate with you?

What you mean "decide his squad command more revenue?" You can't decide revenue levels!!! You make them. Through hard work, investing in the right areas and business nous.

As for Toulon changing the league rules, you'll have to tell me exactly what Toulon did as I am not aware of it.

beshocked wrote:Neutralee it's slightly different because there are 14 French teams and only 4 Welsh teams.

A league would not be able to sustain all clubs being like Toulon because there would be virtually no Frenchman! Basically I don't think anyone wants rugby union to become like the premier league but we are not there yet.

Oh and if Thomas managed to turn Cardiff into a very successful club I am sure they would get some support. Plus what he could do is just bring back all the Welsh players if he had that amount of money to throw at it.

I am sure a super Welsh club with a Welsh core would be much appreciated by Welsh public.

Look at Swansea football. 5 Welshman in the squad.  7 English.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swansea_City_A.F.C.

They weren't the questions or options though! A succesfull Blues team with 2 Welsh players would be a disaster for Welsh rugby.

Look at the directions Racing and montpellier are going, both owners are ambitious and aggressive, and both teams will be full of superstars in the near future. Beforw we know it the French league is going to be a who's who of international rugby players. How does that help the weakers 1st tier nations or the 2nd tier nations to be competitive?

Infact how will this not allow Frances downward spiral spin out of control and possibly out of existence?

Wouldn't be a disaster for Welsh CLUB rugby. It would be a disaster for the international side.

Is that Mourad's problem? He only cares about Toulon. The French rugby union should be acting if they don't want their national team to suffer.

I agree it doesn't help but what do you suggest is done?

beshocked wrote:

jenifer mcladyboy I assume you mean Lawrence Dallaglio? If so I agree. I have met him once in person and we had a good chat about rugby - he's not as arrogant as he has been portrayed in the media, not as boorish either.

In contrast some players I have been disappointed with when meeting them in person.

Have any of you met Mourad in person? Would be interesting to get a real insight.

Not met Mourad. He did make a speech very close to me in the supporters village at the QF. But not being a French speaker.....

My impression of him from talking to people down there is that he is a bit of a "man of the people", definitely "daft as a box of frogs" as they say in England. But has his own inbuilt sense of honour and natural justice. Everything is not "just about money" even though it is obviously very important.

Chunky

Keep your responses more ambiguous and deluded why don't you.

If a serial killer gets off on a legal loophole is he not still a serial killer? If Boudjellal uses his financial clout to exploit legal loopholes is this not still wrong?

And you do decide revenue, when you sign superstar names and attracting media attention and sponsors have you not made the decision to do so, therefore creating power and then making another decision to use that power for change?

I don't understand why in your head you see Toulons exploits as bad for the game worldwide, maybe it's from a 1st tier perspective that you beleive elitism is good, because you are involved within the walls of it, maybe your young and like the dazzling stars of success, you may be a bit of a romantic and just see the rags to riches story, either way i'm not sure your seeing the big picture, or worrying about consequences.

Sadly I don't know why I commented the above, I think I already know your answer.

beshocked wrote:Wouldn't be a disaster for Welsh CLUB rugby. It would be a disaster for the international side.

Is that Mourad's problem? He only cares about Toulon. The French rugby union should be acting if they don't want their national team to suffer.

I agree it doesn't help but what do you suggest is done?

I'd probably say Welsh rugby, club rugby in Wales isn't very good, and the WRU are living off the international paydays, if anything happened to those the the 3 regions would struggle, and leave the Blues to go it alone in their endevours.

edit; I'm not sure the FFR could do anything now, with other clubs rising in similar fashion I think the FFR may just have lost the battle that tips the war, like the RFU may do post 2015.

Neutralee wrote:Chunky

Keep your responses more ambiguous and deluded why don't you.

If a serial killer gets off on a legal loophole is he not still a serial killer? If Boudjellal uses his financial clout to exploit legal loopholes is this not still wrong?

I have asked you about 4 times what these loopholes are they sue, and what rules have been bent. And you have failed to answer each time.

And you do decide revenue, when you sign superstar names and attracting media attention and sponsors have you not made the decision to do so, therefore creating power and then making another decision to use that power for change?

Oh dear. You clearly don't know what turnover is.

I don't understand why in your head you see Toulons exploits as bad for the game worldwide, maybe it's from a 1st tier perspective that you beleive elitism is good, because you are involved within the walls of it, maybe your young and like the dazzling stars of success, you may be a bit of a romantic and just see the rags to riches story, either way i'm not sure your seeing the big picture, or worrying about consequences.

Sadly I don't know why I commented the above, I think I already know your answer.

You don't understand because your mind is entrenched with a pre-determined disposition. This thread has proved it.

I have to say this thread is making me like Toulon more and more.

Everyone loves an underdog

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Neutralee wrote:Chunky

Keep your responses more ambiguous and deluded why don't you.

If a serial killer gets off on a legal loophole is he not still a serial killer? If Boudjellal uses his financial clout to exploit legal loopholes is this not still wrong?

I have asked you about 4 times what these loopholes are they sue, and what rules have been bent. And you have failed to answer each time.

And you do decide revenue, when you sign superstar names and attracting media attention and sponsors have you not made the decision to do so, therefore creating power and then making another decision to use that power for change?

Oh dear. You clearly don't know what turnover is.

I don't understand why in your head you see Toulons exploits as bad for the game worldwide, maybe it's from a 1st tier perspective that you beleive elitism is good, because you are involved within the walls of it, maybe your young and like the dazzling stars of success, you may be a bit of a romantic and just see the rags to riches story, either way i'm not sure your seeing the big picture, or worrying about consequences.

Sadly I don't know why I commented the above, I think I already know your answer.

You don't understand because your mind is entrenched with a pre-determined disposition. This thread has proved it.

  Jackpot!

Sadly because I come from a place that has no affiliations within 6N rugby I had a clearly open mind coming into the situation over the last year or so, knew nothing about the situation going on in europe, so researched and made my mind up based on varying opinions, and facts. I then researched trends of rugby union since professionalism, to determine where the game has been heading.

But don't let a good rags to riches story get in the way of that.

Still no loopholes. Still no bent rules.

Allez Toulon.

Neutralee, it would be interesting to know where you're from.

Given that it's not from a 'rugby' country it would cast some light on your opinions here.

Please share

We are especially proud that a Heineken Cup final could be staged in Italy, " Italian Rugby Federation president Alfredo Gavazzi said at the Italian launch of this season's Heineken and Amlin tournaments on Monday.

"This is a tournament which plays a key role in the continued development of our top clubs, and which also is critical for the progress of our national team
- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/san-siro-named-as-2015-heineken-cup-final-venue-29640785.html#sthash.7eH5PlUe.dpuf

While we're discussing growing the game, great decision to not do so today...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2722622/Twickenham-host-inaugural-European-Rugby-Champions-Cup-final-2015.html

And rugby isn't in trouble?!

Chunky Norwich wrote:

You don't understand because your mind is entrenched with a pre-determined disposition.

Says the man whose pre-determined disposition is stronger than reality itself.   

Even though I am closer to your view on this particular thread. That one is so funny. You never miss a chance to have a dig at the Pro12 and to fit any facts into your world view that PRL good, everything else bad.

Beshocked
"Pete depends how you define passion. I thought passion was to do with serious emotion - either love or hate. I would say tribalism is linked with passion. Might be misguided passion but passion nonetheless."

This is true, passion is an ambiguous beast it seems, I mean what is it I feel for Mrs Pete330v2? Tribal hatred.......

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

You don't understand because your mind is entrenched with a pre-determined disposition.

Says the man whose pre-determined disposition is stronger than reality itself.   

Even though I am closer to your view on this particular thread. That one is so funny. You never miss a chance to have a dig at the Pro12 and to fit any facts into your world view that PRL good, everything else bad.

Just my opinion love.

No remarks regarding another tragedy, taking away Italy's first ever chance to hold the final of the european comp to ensure England are the first to do it, despite holding it 3 years ago?

Is this a good thing also, I mean it's not like Italy will have a side in it, and the PRL did create the new comp and allow everyone to enter, bless them.

French budgets for next season:

1. Toulouse (35,02)
2. Clermont (27,90)
3. Toulon (25,37)
4. Racing: (25,36)
5. Stade français (25,28)
6. Montpellier (22,54)
7. Lyon (21,03)
8. Grenoble (20,77)
9. Castres (19,04)
10. UBB (15,86)
11. Bayonne (15,76)
12. La Rochelle (14,47)
13. Oyonnax (14,28)
14. Brive (13,63)

This is what they were last year (13-14 season)

1 / Stade Toulousain : 35,419
2 / ASM Clermont : 26,718
3 / Stade Français : 24,968
4 / RC Toulon : 23,663
5 / Racing-Métro 92 : 22,452
6 / Montpellier : 19,971
7 / FC Grenoble : 18,644
8 / Aviron Bayonnais :18,147
9 / Castres Olympique : 17,335
10 / Biarritz Olympique : 16,944
11 / USAP : 14,953
12 / UBB : 12,862
13 / Brive : 11,092
14 / Oyonnax : 9,172

En savoir plus sur http://www.lerugbynistere.fr/news/top-14-budgets-clubs-saison-2013-2014-2908131107.php#Xasi4Vo7T6tpGQ4Z.99

Beshocked wrote:Pete depends how you define passion. I thought passion was to do with serious emotion - either love or hate. I would say tribalism is linked with passion. Might be misguided passion but passion nonetheless

Whats your beef with tribalism. Without tribalism, there would be no sport and no one would buy any jerseys as they wouldn't be interested in being in the Manchester United tribe.

Look at Adidas marketing for Munster's New Alternative Jersey - and I'd say they know a thing or two about sport and marketing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9UnrSCYJv0

Sin é wrote:

Beshocked wrote:Pete depends how you define passion. I thought passion was to do with serious emotion - either love or hate. I would say tribalism is linked with passion. Might be misguided passion but passion nonetheless

Whats your beef with tribalism. Without tribalism, there would be no sport and no one would buy any jerseys as they wouldn't be interested in being in the Manchester United tribe.

Look at Adidas marketing for Munster's New Alternative Jersey - and I'd say they know a thing or two about sport and marketing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9UnrSCYJv0

They'd want to to flog that fecken thing....  

Sin é wrote:French budgets for next season:

1. Toulouse (35,02)
2. Clermont (27,90)
3. Toulon (25,37)

That can't be right. Look:

Neutralee wrote:Toulose and cleremont have had no benefactor money in the last few seasons, have a turnover of less that Toulon, and both made small losses I beleive.

Beef with tribalism? No not really. Healthy rivalry is fine. It's when tribalism goes too far that I have a problem. Extreme example I know but look at Israelis vs Palestines that's not a healthy rivalry. When tribalism leads to violence it's not good.

Tribalism celebrates divisions - it becomes us vs them.

We need to strive towards a common goal.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:French budgets for next season:

1. Toulouse (35,02)
2. Clermont (27,90)
3. Toulon (25,37)

That can't be right. Look:

Neutralee wrote:Toulose and cleremont have had no benefactor money in the last few seasons, have a turnover of less that Toulon, and both made small losses I beleive.

You know the difference between budget and turnover right?

Neutralee wrote:

You know the difference between budget and turnover right?

They are the same in French rugby. Unless you want to supply some evidence to the contrary.

Look at rugby league!

No wonder they moved it to a summer sport, something for the football fans to follow up North during the summer.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Neutralee wrote:

You know the difference between budget and turnover right?

They are the same in French rugby. Unless you want to supply some evidence to the contrary.

  

I give up on you, quick question before I go, are you really Welsh and what relationship do you have to Toulon?

neutralee you're right. It's not good that the HC final has been moved but I can understand why it's been done even if I don't approve.

Neutralee wrote:
I give up on you

Because you're wrong again. Budget = turnover.

, are you really Welsh

Yes

what relationship do you have to Toulon?

No relationship. Never been there.

I've just bought a Toulon shirt    very nice it is too.

Do you usually fight tooth and nail for clubs who havn't got a leg to stand on and you have no affiliation with?

Or are you generally too busy criticising your 'home' set up?

beshocked wrote:Beef with tribalism? No not really. Healthy rivalry is fine. It's when tribalism goes too far that I have a problem. Extreme example I know but look at Israelis vs Palestines that's not a healthy rivalry. When tribalism leads to violence it's not good.

Tribalism celebrates divisions - it becomes us vs them.

We need to strive towards a common goal.

Thats a very extreme example.

Tribalism also celebrates looking out for your own which has nothing got to do with killing everyone else.

My example - if I was in a foreign country and saw someone driving an Irish reg car that was broken down, I'd probably stop to see if I could help them out.

Neutralee wrote:Do you usually fight tooth and nail for clubs who havn't got a leg to stand on and you have no affiliation with?

Or are you generally too busy criticising your 'home' set up?

I feel it is such a widepsread misconception and lazy generalisation that people need to know the actual reality. Toulon are one of the biggest sporting success stories since the turn of the century. Most people think the owner of Toulon puts in about 5 million quid every year. The good thing to come out of this thread is that this and other misconceptions have been disproved.

Although the fact you still claim Toulon haven't "got a leg to stand on", somewhat disheartens me after all we've been through.

Do you think I'm French or something?

Oh and back to your 1st post. It just shows that other clubs need to play catch up.

I am sure every club could be doing things better - be it looking after supporters better, more creative marketing, making more canny signings, better gameplans etc.

Cardiff beat Toulon last season. If they can do it then surely other teams should be able too.

I don't think any team is unbeatable - just need to work out how to beat them.

Same with being commercially viable. I am sure there are plenty of ways clubs can improve.

Neutralee wrote:Do you usually fight tooth and nail for clubs who havn't got a leg to stand on and you have no affiliation with?

Based on typical attendances at Stade Mayol, I would say they have at least 27,999 legs to stand on. (Accounting for "One Legged" Henri)