Australia vs New Zealand: Match thread, pondering and pontificating.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

First topic message reminder :

It's almost upon us. Two teams geared up for this one. It's finally here.

Good luck to both sides and here's hoping for a cracker.

[Guest]

It doesn't. If you read the fine print it sees tier-one team record streak.

I'm thinking more of commentators, pundits and the media who never seem to mention it being a Tier 1 (and not overall) Test record.

In fairness the comentators did mention it being Tier 1 today... A LOT!

But it is a valid point, this tier 1 nonsense doesn't apply, you hold a record or you don't, the trick to not allowing the likes of Cyprus to win 23 in a row is to pit them against tougher opposition now and then.

Isn't there something where Cyprus don't really get a fair crack of the whip with regards to stepping up? My ex RAF U21 coach was head coach till last year and I am sure I remember him saying something.

Edit. They weren't allowed to attempt qualification for RWC 15 as they didn't meet criteria.

[Guest]

Just wondering how many world cup qualifiers Cyprus has played, if any?

See my post above

[Rugby Fan]

Whenever this consecutive record talk crops up, I can't help regretting Woodward's agreement with the French to play two A team vs B Team matches as World Cup warm-ups in 2003.

Our B team almost beat their A team but fell to defeat at the end. If we'd won that, England's winning streak to the World cup final would have been 24 matches.

Yesterday's match was an odd one. I thought Eastmond's pass after his line break during the first All Blacks test was terrible but Folau set new standards in awfulness with his horror pass to Beale. You have to think Beale passing to Folau would have been a certain try.

The result poses similar questions to those Hansen has faced whenever his team has been run close. Do you stick with the squad, taking comfort in their ability to stay undefeated, or do you worry that some of these results will start going against you when it matters most and change things?

I wouldn't mind my team having that as a problem, though.

[doctor_grey]

To me, this was a 'nearly' match. Both sides nearly got over the line a few times and certainly had opportunities. A draw does seem to me a reasonable reflection of the match itself.

Rugby Fan, it is a funny thing, but that warm-up match in Marseille has really taken a bit of lustre off that England team. For those of us who appreciated that team, it doesn't chamge anything. But for the wider public, a completely different view. Odd for just a warm-up match. Guess it shows the power of numbers, eh?

[Taylorman]

Agree Kia, a cut above all other wingers in the world on attack and defence

I wouldn't go that far, he made 2 good tackles against a ponderous 12 playing wing, mccabe wasn't in the team to finish, he wqas there to contain, he seemed lost going forward and had no real shot at scoring.


I'd say the most devestating winger in world rugby right now is probably Cuthbert, scores against everyone! North, Smith, Habana, and Savea are all in a similar group together for all round ability I'd say.

"LOL"

Cuthbert 27 matches, 13 tries.
Savea 23 matches, 23 tries.

hmmm...

[disneychilly]

Whenever this consecutive record talk crops up, I can't help regretting Woodward's agreement with the French to play two A team vs B Team matches as World Cup warm-ups in 2003.

Our B team almost beat their A team but fell to defeat at the end. If we'd won that, England's winning streak to the World cup final would have been 24 matches.

Yesterday's match was an odd one. I thought Eastmond's pass after his line break during the first All Blacks test was terrible but Folau set new standards in awfulness with his horror pass to Beale.  You have to think Beale passing to Folau would have been a certain try.

The result poses similar questions to those Hansen has faced whenever his team has been run close. Do you stick with the squad, taking comfort in their ability to stay undefeated, or do you worry that some of these results will start going against you when it matters most and change things?

I wouldn't mind my team having that as a problem, though.

You've still got to win the games though-they are still tests and if you pick a second string side you should be prepared to suffer the consequences. The team that NZ put out against England in 02 was an example of that and only lost by three-could have stopped the streak there but it still goes in the book.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Nonu and Kaino are in doubt for Eden Park. Crotty would be my man for 12 (thought he was strong on defence) and Fekitoa for impact. Actually think Piutau gives us more options as an impact player but Fekitoa will learn a lot from his game time and with no genuine alternative for Smith, I think it's the right call to allow him to grow.

Kaino is more of a problem. If you bring on Messam or Luatua, we might gain in mobility but we lose in physicality. Another alternative is to move McCaw to 6 and put Cane in at 7 and Luatua or Messam on the bench.

Plenty for Hansen to think about. He won't panic as he knows the players have to improve substantially if they're going to keep that Eden Park record intact. Australia will be gutted after the draw but they'll be also chomping at the bit to have another crack.

[majesticimperialman]

I thought it was a great game yesterday. Great defence from both teams.

It is not often that you see either NZ or Australia not score atleast one try in a game.

If only Australia had taken those kicks at goal than maybe Australia would of won yesterday.

Still hind sight is a good thing. i guess.

[Cyril]

I'm still not sure why people keep talking about this test winning-streak record being possibly broken today. Cyprus hold the record of 23.

Why does that always get forgotten?

Its not forgotten, its because the All blacks are too scared to play Cyprus, so we purposely dont mention it. There that should make you happy Cyril.

Not really. It's just one of those semi-annoying things like when O'Hata gets 'forgotten' about in talk of the record for tries scored in test matches

[asoreleftshoulder]

I'm still not sure why people keep talking about this test winning-streak record being possibly broken today. Cyprus hold the record of 23.

Why does that always get forgotten?

Its not forgotten, its because the All blacks are too scared to play Cyprus, so we purposely dont mention it. There that should make you happy Cyril.

Not really. It's just one of those semi-annoying things like when O'Hata gets 'forgotten' about in talk of the record for tries scored in test matches

He must have Irish blood.

[Cyril]

I'm still not sure why people keep talking about this test winning-streak record being possibly broken today. Cyprus hold the record of 23.

Why does that always get forgotten?

Its not forgotten, its because the All blacks are too scared to play Cyprus, so we purposely dont mention it. There that should make you happy Cyril.

Not really. It's just one of those semi-annoying things like when O'Hata gets 'forgotten' about in talk of the record for tries scored in test matches

He must have Irish blood.

[aucklandlaurie]

I'm still not sure why people keep talking about this test winning-streak record being possibly broken today. Cyprus hold the record of 23.

Why does that always get forgotten?

Its not forgotten, its because the All blacks are too scared to play Cyprus, so we purposely dont mention it. There that should make you happy Cyril.

Not really. It's just one of those semi-annoying things like when O'Hata gets 'forgotten' about in talk of the record for tries scored in test matches

maybe your too easily annoyed?

[fa0019]

Its forgotton because without streaming the stat its meaningless. Cyprus play in the 5th tier of European rugby (Division 2B) where the other teams hold a ranking average of 61. Perhaps they drafted in a number of UK service men to play for them whilst serving??? Looking at one of the top teams in their domestic league they look to be filled with British expats.
 
People often quote Arsenals season unbeaten stat calling them the invincibles.. their 49 without a loss record is nothing compared to FC sheriff in Moldova and their 63 match streak in 2006-8. However most people can see a difference between the EPL and the Moldovan league... during which they never got beyond the 2nd qualifying round of the Champions league.

[Cyril]

I'm still not sure why people keep talking about this test winning-streak record being possibly broken today. Cyprus hold the record of 23.

Why does that always get forgotten?

Its not forgotten, its because the All blacks are too scared to play Cyprus, so we purposely dont mention it. There that should make you happy Cyril.

Not really. It's just one of those semi-annoying things like when O'Hata gets 'forgotten' about in talk of the record for tries scored in test matches

 maybe your too easily annoyed?

I said it was semi-annoying. It doesn't ruin my day.

This forum needs to stand up for the little people.

[Bathman_in_London]

Its forgotton because without streaming the stat its meaningless. Cyprus play in the 5th tier of European rugby (Division 2B) where the other teams hold a ranking average of 61. Perhaps they drafted in a number of UK service men to play for them whilst serving??? Looking at one of the top teams in their domestic league they look to be filled with British expats.
 
People often quote Arsenals season unbeaten stat calling them the invincibles.. their 49 without a loss record is nothing compared to FC sheriff in Moldova and their 63 match streak in 2006-8. However most people can see a difference between the EPL and the Moldovan league... during which they never got beyond the 2nd qualifying round of the Champions league.

While that is true, you could argue that NZ have been the #1 team in the world for the entire period of their winning streak, so in theory every team is worse than them, so in theory they should win them all. Whereas Cyprus in that run played teams both above and below them in the rankings and so shouldn't have been expected to win them all.

I guess in a few years time we can have the same conversation when NZ build up a run of wins again!

[emack2]

Interesting comment about Arsenals winning run, achieved without a single English men in the side.Read somewhere Wales unbeaten run in there first golden age was about 45 matches did`nt stipulate they were all test matches tho.

[fa0019]

Its forgotton because without streaming the stat its meaningless. Cyprus play in the 5th tier of European rugby (Division 2B) where the other teams hold a ranking average of 61. Perhaps they drafted in a number of UK service men to play for them whilst serving??? Looking at one of the top teams in their domestic league they look to be filled with British expats.
 
People often quote Arsenals season unbeaten stat calling them the invincibles.. their 49 without a loss record is nothing compared to FC sheriff in Moldova and their 63 match streak in 2006-8. However most people can see a difference between the EPL and the Moldovan league... during which they never got beyond the 2nd qualifying round of the Champions league.

While that is true, you could argue that NZ have been the #1 team in the world for the entire period of their winning streak, so in theory every team is worse than them, so in theory they should win them all. Whereas Cyprus in that run played teams both above and below them in the rankings and so shouldn't have been expected to win them all.

I guess in a few years time we can have the same conversation when NZ build up a run of wins again!

 
Looking at Cyprus' team and league its mainly filled with expats. Meaning they have an unfair advantage compared to say Albania which probably has fewer expats from traditional rugby nations as cyprus has.
 
It reminds me of teams that start at the bottom of the tier like London Scottish years ago. They started off the lowest of the low but had resources and  got promoted what 8 years on the trot because of it. Its not really an achievement compared to a team that did it organically.

[Neutralee]

Its forgotton because without streaming the stat its meaningless. Cyprus play in the 5th tier of European rugby (Division 2B) where the other teams hold a ranking average of 61. Perhaps they drafted in a number of UK service men to play for them whilst serving??? Looking at one of the top teams in their domestic league they look to be filled with British expats.
 
People often quote Arsenals season unbeaten stat calling them the invincibles.. their 49 without a loss record is nothing compared to FC sheriff in Moldova and their 63 match streak in 2006-8. However most people can see a difference between the EPL and the Moldovan league... during which they never got beyond the 2nd qualifying round of the Champions league.

While that is true, you could argue that NZ have been the #1 team in the world for the entire period of their winning streak, so in theory every team is worse than them, so in theory they should win them all. Whereas Cyprus in that run played teams both above and below them in the rankings and so shouldn't have been expected to win them all.

I guess in a few years time we can have the same conversation when NZ build up a run of wins again!

 
Looking at Cyprus' team and league its mainly filled with expats. Meaning they have an unfair advantage compared to say Albania which probably has fewer expats from traditional rugby nations as cyprus has.
 
It reminds me of teams that start at the bottom of the tier like London Scottish years ago. They started off the lowest of the low but had resources and  got promoted what 8 years on the trot because of it. Its not really an achievement compared to a team that did it organically.

So let me get thir straight, Cyprus have made the best of what was at their disposal (Immigration) and produced a win streak, but because they have not played a tier 1 nation (I am pretty positive they would want to play as many high profile nations as possible) their acheivements have not meant as much as a country who has utilised what was at their disposal (Immigration) and acheived a lesser win streak, despite being the most sought after match on the planet?

I have to disagree, the Arsenal - moldova comparison doesn't hold up, Arsenal are heralded the 'invincibles' by the media from their own country, I bet moldovan press praise the moldovan team all the time too!

If an international team wants to break a win streak record, they have to beat what another international team acheives, if that means sending a Kiwi team to Cyprus to beat them I am sure they will be glad of the game, however if an international team wants to earn £/$ by only playing tier 1 nations, then don't whine when a lower tier nation puts a win streak together that outdoes your own.

[fa0019]

you have to admit... cyprus with a notable expat population and the armed forces stationed there too are at a bigger advantage then a fellow country without such resources.
 
Its like Glasgow Rangers being relegated to the 3rd division in scottish football. Hardly an achievement for them to be promoted two years in a row given they have kept many players from their premier league days prior to their removal from the top flight over their financial woes.

[Neutralee]

you have to admit... cyprus with a notable expat population and the armed forces stationed there too are at a bigger advantage then a fellow country without such resources.
 
Its like Glasgow Rangers being relegated to the 3rd division in scottish football. Hardly an achievement for them to be promoted two years in a row given they have kept many players from their premier league days prior to their removal from the top flight over their financial woes.

But then you could say the same about NZ and Fiji, England and Wales, England and Scotland, France and Argentina... There is a team with a considerable advantage over a competitor for one reason or another, NZ has benefited massively over the PI's because of immigration, there have been some absolute superstars of the game passed over there. Also England has a huge population advantage, major cities such as London attract an influx of foreign potential playing talent, with a pretty hefty recent number of SA/Aus players. How do Wales or Scotland compete with that pull of sheer numbers?

If Cyprus has this talent, by whatever legal means why should using it be condemned, if the tier one nations who are similarly if not more blessed do exactly the same thing?

[fa0019]

its a bit like the Italian rugby league team no?
 
no league, no set up.... all the players are NRL players with italian granddads who didn't quite make the kangaroos squad.
 
laud their achievement... with a bit of a slow clap perhaps.

[Neutralee]

its a bit like the Italian rugby league team no?
 
no league, no set up.... all the players are NRL players with italian granddads who didn't quite make the kangaroos squad.
 
laud their achievement... with a bit of a slow clap perhaps.

TBH my knowleged of league is pretty laughable, but will take your word for it. If the Italian team is full of Aus converts then there has to be an issue with the system.

I coached an U18 team a few seasons ago, had a great season and made a final, came up against the local powerhouse, and poachers. This team had players from every club in the region and beyond, caused a few clubs to combine due to lack of players etc...

Anyway got a tonking in the final by a team who turned up with a squad of 23 + 8 lads not selected for the squad, and we had 2 subs. After talking to a few parents it was clear none were particularly happy with the situation, that they had been loaning players to opposition teams as subs all year etc...

1 lads parent in particular stood and made a very disgruntled speach at the dinner, reading his boys stats...

Winners medal 2010,

Played 11 times (9 sub) for his team - 0 against his team - 11!

Won the league by only ever playing against the team he was registered for, needless to say the parent was applauded by too many others, and a lot of younger boys sought other clubs come seasons end.

Now thats a pretty slow clap, success by strangulation!

[Cyril]

Interesting comment about Arsenals winning run, achieved without a single English men in the side .Read somewhere Wales unbeaten run in there first golden age was about 45 matches did`nt stipulate they were all test matches tho.

Incorrect.

They might not have had many English players but Sol Campbell and Ashley Cole were in the 'most appearances XI' during that season.

[funnyExiledScot]

That's right. They were notable for being the first club to name a side without a single Englishman in the starting XI, but there were several English players as noted above who played a key role in that Invincibles team.

[funnyExiledScot]

Also England has a huge population advantage, major cities such as London attract an influx of foreign potential playing talent, with a pretty hefty recent number of SA/Aus players. How do Wales or Scotland compete with that pull of sheer numbers?

By doing some healthy poaching of our own!

[Neutralee]

Also England has a huge population advantage, major cities such as London attract an influx of foreign potential playing talent, with a pretty hefty recent number of SA/Aus players. How do Wales or Scotland compete with that pull of sheer numbers?

By doing some healthy poaching of our own!

  

It's the way of the world at the present, ask the guys working for the FFR/LNR? In Fiji...

Just not sure why Cyprus is copping flak for doing what the rest of the world has done for years.

[funnyExiledScot]

Also England has a huge population advantage, major cities such as London attract an influx of foreign potential playing talent, with a pretty hefty recent number of SA/Aus players. How do Wales or Scotland compete with that pull of sheer numbers?

By doing some healthy poaching of our own!

  

It's the way of the world at the present, ask the guys working for the FFR/LNR? In Fiji...

Just not sure why Cyprus is copping flak for doing what the rest of the world has done for years.

The reason is obvious. If they poach better players than we do then they'll probably overtake us in the rankings. The way this works is that we go on a poaching frenzy then as soon as we're satisfied that there isn't a Saffa, Kiwi or Aussie on this planet with a penchant for tartan that isn't "on track", we criticise the hell out of anyone else trying to the same thing, lift the drawbridge and close the door. Simple.

[Neutralee]

Also England has a huge population advantage, major cities such as London attract an influx of foreign potential playing talent, with a pretty hefty recent number of SA/Aus players. How do Wales or Scotland compete with that pull of sheer numbers?

By doing some healthy poaching of our own!

  

It's the way of the world at the present, ask the guys working for the FFR/LNR? In Fiji...

Just not sure why Cyprus is copping flak for doing what the rest of the world has done for years.

The reason is obvious. If they poach better players than we do then they'll probably overtake us in the rankings. The way this works is that we go on a poaching frenzy then as soon as we're satisfied that there isn't a Saffa, Kiwi or Aussie on this planet with a penchant for tartan that isn't "on track", we criticise the hell out of anyone else trying to the same thing, lift the drawbridge and close the door. Simple.

But how different would NZ teams of the past have been without benefitting from immigration?

[funnyExiledScot]

I'm sure they'd have been completely rubbish.....

[aucklandlaurie]

Might have been rubbish at rugby, but would have held a high ranking in cannibalism.

[Neutralee]

I'm sure they'd have been completely rubbish.....

Bit harsh.

[emack2]

This has gotten completely off the point,for the record on games won lost NZ are THE
most successful RWC team.Having lost 5 games in the tournament proper 2 France,
2 Oz,1SA,-plus lost 1 games to Sa in a playoff,
1987[1],1991[3],1995[2],1999;[4],2003[3],2007[unplaced],2011[1]
Now that's out of the way Aus unchanged,NZ Messam at 6,Crotty 12,Faumina for
Moody bench.
If dry expect a high speed game Eden park is a fortress ,but even they get stormed
tomorrow will settle 4Ns title.
Whoever wins if the Boks get bonus point win tomorrow means realistically at
least a win v Boks plus as many bonus points from the other 3 games.

[fa0019]

I don't think anyone can claim to be the RWC most successful team
 
NZ  - 7 tournaments, 3 finals, 2 wins (both home).
AUS - 7 tournaments, 3 finals, 2 wins (both away).
SA  - 5 tournaments, 2 finals, 2 wins (1 home, 1 away).
ENG - 7 tournaments, 3 finals, 1 win (away).
FRA - 7 tournaments, 3 finals, 0 wins.
 
winning most games is one way to look I agree but titles is the most important.
 
3 way tie there but SA have done in in 2 fewer tournaments, AUS have done it each time at the other side of the world yet NZ have come in the top 3 most often (5 vs 4 of AUS & FRA, 3 of ENG & SA & 1 of ARG).
 
Probably give it to AUS given their wins away stat myself.
  
In terms of the RC this year I still think its in NZ's bag. They should win on Sat and I think SA may struggle to beat AUS in AUS... that will be the crunch match for the tournament for me. If SA can win there it will set them up nicely.

[funnyExiledScot]

I would declare NZ the moral winners, because of Suzie the waitress and Wayne Barnes.

[emack2]

Hi Faoo so you are in the camp IF SA were there in 87 and 91 they would have won both?plus
like Ab`s they won at home?so sorry according to trainspotters here that doesn't count.
NZ yet to win one.

[disneychilly]

I don't think FA is Louis Luyt reincarnate Alan

For me SA is definitely the number one team. 2/5 beats 2/7. For NZ and SA it's win or nothing so there you go.

Still don't feel 87 and 91 should could less though. Shows disrespect to those that did win it.

Funnily enough NZ's most controversial exits ended up in SA triumph-just another chapter in the storied rivalry. Not that it's any more than a coincidence.

[fa0019]

HI Alan
 
not sure how you got that assumption. Just that 2 out of 5 is better than 2 out of 7... thats simple maths.
 
In reality I think NZ in NZ would have been a difficult nut to crack even though SA were probably (probably) the best team in the world at the time. 1991...well AUS with Farr-Jones, Lynagh, Campese, Horan, Little etc were a very very special team. They would have been very difficult to beat too, probably would have done a better job than England would have done and not how AUS would dealt with the bokke pack but its all a little bit if and maybe that. AUS at the time were superior to NZ at the time, the only yardstick available.
 
PS - if anyone wants to blame some for the 95 sickness... don't blame suzi, blame the coach. He played sick players with fresh players on the bench. Thats simply madness and either he couldn't grasp the severity of the issue or player power got involved like Ronaldo's seizure and the Football WC final in 1998. Either way it was the head coaches fault.

[disneychilly]

I blame management-they had the chance to get the game postponed and didn't.

[funnyExiledScot]

Well for me a win is a win and that means three countries share the current prize for most successful having won two times.

Fence sitting perhaps, but trying to claim one WC win counts beyond another doesn't cut it for me.

[fa0019]

I blame management-they had the chance to get the game postponed and didn't.

 
I think they would have been told to go do-one by the IRB. They had fit players available, just not all of those fit were first choice players and I think thats how the IRB would have ruled. SA would never have agreed to it. NZ wouldn't have agreed to it had the shoe been on the other foot.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Wales took out a patent on moral victories. We won't be able to claim one for another 26 years.

[emack2]

Simple maths doesn't cut it Faoo,that was a very special side in 1987 [NZ]certainly better
than the Cavaliers side.
Cavaliers tour 12 matches,4 tests,all the top currie cup sides,plus Junior boks and a
barbarians type side.A so called neutral ref.so biased you`d think he was a Saffa of
the days of reality.In the words of Andy Haden daylight robbery.
SA best in the world on what grounds is that,you`d been out of the game for 5years.
1987 in Nz with genuinely neutral refs,no other games to soften them up VERY debateable.
1991 no chance on performances 1992-5 every one and his dog beat the Boks

[fa0019]

Wales took out a patent on moral victories. We won't be able to claim one for another 26 years.

 
Brilliant Kia... I think I may pinch that line for later!!!

[Taylorman]

 
In reality I think NZ in NZ would have been a difficult nut to crack even though SA were probably (probably) the best team in the world at the time. .

87? No chance. The 87 AB side were hands down the best side in 87 and easily the best winning World cup side of all played so far. A winning margin of no less than 20 in any match stands out ahead of any other in the event by a mile.

If the Cavaliers 3-1 loss to SA the year before is being used as a yard stick (where several greats from 87 did not attend) the level of improvement between 86 and 87 is huge.

NZ lost to France 16-3 in 86- then beat them by 20 in the 87 final. Lost to Oz at Eden park in 86 22-9 then turned that around to win 30-14 in Sydney after the world cup final.

So the 87 side were turning around the same sides by 30 points between 86 and 87. No way SA would have got near the ABs in 87.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Dry deck. Just what the doctor ordered. Along with some vaseline for the chafing.

[Rugby Fan]

That refereeing issue has cropped up instantly.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

It was stupid from Smith so no problem with that. NZ has responded well though.

[Rugby Fan]

Yellow for McCaw. Only the second in his career, apparently.

It's a good looking match.

[disneychilly]

Deserved too. Very cynical.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Some stupid indiscipline. At least they've responded well.

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