UEFA Champions & Europa League 2014-15 Season Thread

[Fernando]

First topic message reminder :

All places to talk Champions & Europa League  football for this season  

Champions League Round of 16 Draw

PSG vs Chelsea
Man City vs Barcelona
Bayer Leverkusen vs Atletico Madrid
Juventus vs Dortmund
Schalke vs Real Madrid
Shaktar Donetsk vs Bayern Munich
Arsenal vs Monaco
Basel vs Porto


Arsenal - Monaco
Celtic - Inter Milan
Chelsea - PSG
Everton - Young Boys
Hull - OUT
Liverpool - OUT of CL dropped into Europa League - Besiktas
Man City - Barcelona
Man Utd - Swansea 21st February (It's about as close to European football as your getting this year) 
Tottenham - Fiorentina

[mystiroakey]

Bar a few games a season RM do that to every team they come across. They would destroy LA ligas 6th best by an even greater margin.

THe exact same as happened with Man U, Arsenal, City and Chelsea over the seasons too. The PL really isn't much different from any of those leagues.

Our talent is spread out more. There is a difference in philosophy and teams worth compared to the other top leagues. But there is a reason for that . we split our TV revenues more equally. And in a few more years time especially with the invention of ffp and the new major multi billon pound tv deals it will be even more competitive

[super_realist]

The point was you said that the EPL was more competitive than other leagues, despite there being no more different winners in the last 10 years than any other league, nor having any more different runners up than any other.

You also claimed that the EPL doesn't sign players from rival teams like they do in the Bundesliga, where in fact they do.

I'm simply saying that the popular opinion that the EPL is the "best league in the world" is a misconception, it might have the best media presence, the best marketing, perhaps even the most viewers, but it doesn't have the best teams and it doesn't have the best players.

It's no more competitive than any other.

It's funny you try to tell me that RM wouldn't have smashed Liverpool last season, well surely it stands that RM aren't the same team either.
They didn't even have Bale last night and they still flicked away Liverpool like they were a pub team.
Unless you're an avid watcher of La Liga, Bundesliga etc, then it's sheer conjecture the talent is spread out more.

How much "talent" is spread throughout QPR, Burnley, Newcastle, Stoke or Palace?

[Stella]

Who still says it's the best league in the world? well, apart from Oakey.

It's one of the best three, well imo. I'll take that.

[mystiroakey]

Nonsense.

Real without bale are still a serious team.

If real didn't have benzema and ronaldo then we could talk. That is the equivalent of losing sturrige and Suarez.

You don't watch any football. So don't try and tell me that I don't.. I actually do. You just look at results and get a buzz when England or an English team gets beat. You are way more Scottish than you admit pal..

[mystiroakey]

Who still says it's the best league in the world? well, apart from Oakey.

It's one of the best three, well imo. I'll take that.

I didn't even say that. I said its the most competitive out of the top 3. Which it is.

[super_realist]

Nonsense.

Real without bale are still a serious team.

If real didn't have benzema and ronaldo then we could talk. That is the equivalent of losing sturrige and Suarez.

Ha ha ha, now I know you're joking. Sturridge an equivalent of Benzema and ROnaldo?

I still don't know how you can say it's "the most competitive". What criteria are you using for that?

[mystiroakey]

Nonsense.

Real without bale are still a serious team.

If real didn't have benzema and ronaldo then we could talk. That is the equivalent of losing sturrige and Suarez.

Ha ha ha, now I know you're joking. Sturridge an equivalent of Benzema and ROnaldo?

I still don't know how you can say it's "the most competitive". What criteria are you using for that?

Are you mental.

Suraez and sturrudge are a very good equivalent of losing benzema and Ronaldo to Liverpool.

If you don't know that . you don't know much.

But you are dishonest . you didn't mention suraez.or are you blind..

[super_realist]

I'm happy to admit Liverpool were a one man team and that the loss of Suarez had an impact, still, it isn't reason as to why they were so shiversomely bad in defence and midfield yesterday is it? They looked just as bad as Maribor did on Tuesday. Is that the level they are at now?

I don't really rate Sturridge at all, sorry.

[mystiroakey]

Well he scored a lot of goals last season..

Rm's defence isn't that great so if liverpool had sturridge Suarez and sterling on good form they would have also scored goals. It would have been a cracking game.

[super_realist]

I don't rate Sterling either, he seems to be just another over-rated Englishman.

[mystiroakey]

You dont rate any english players- so I am not surprised.

[mystiroakey]

I must get back on the golf forum so we dont have to let our debates spill out on to the footy ones....

I do miss them...

[super_realist]

You dont rate any english players- so I am not surprised.

I do actually, I like Lambert as a player, Jagielka, Walcott, and Baines and even Wilshere can be good, even though he's a scumbag.

[mystiroakey]

Jag isnt good enough. no way.

Cahill, walcott(allways injured) and wilshire(which will go against the majority) are our best players.

[wadey101]

People say the reason the Germany league isn't strong is because there is no competition for the Dortmund and especially Bayern but if Bayern played in the PL I reckon they'd beat the English teams just as easy. The reason the PL is so competitive is because there is no superb team like Bayern, Real or Barca so the games are a lot closer. Look at how City struggled at home to Roma but Bayern tore them apart.

[super_realist]

Jag isnt good enough. no way.

Cahill, walcott(allways injured) and wilshire(which will go against the majority) are our best players.

You can't really blame me for not really rating too many England players. It's a bit like asking which of the Denmark or Ukranian squad I rate.

[Duty281]

Ronaldo is playing at such an unreal level at the moment, if he keeps it up for the season I think this will be better than Messi's best run at the top and we might have to start asking whether it's actually Ronaldo who is the best of all time.

Neither one is the best of all time, although I think it is abundantly clear that Ronaldo is a far superior player, overall, to the overrated Messi.

[mystiroakey]

People say the reason the Germany league isn't strong is because there is no competition for the Dortmund and especially Bayern but if Bayern played in the PL I reckon they'd beat the English teams just as easy. The reason the PL is so competitive is because there is no superb team like Bayern, Real or Barca so the games are a lot closer. Look at how City struggled at home to Roma but Bayern tore them apart.

I cant see a bayern or man u situation happening in the PL for some time. All the best German talent gets fed to bayern- Reus will also be on his way as well.. Every time BVB come close they then give up there best players. Its great for the national team and there top team in the CL but not for there league.

Our lower level teams have more money than the German equivalent- so what do they do. They buy foreign players over bringing up the youth talent. Lower level german clubs cant do that because they dont have the money to and they also don't necessarily need the money because they have more home grown talent.

Huge teams(fan base wise) like Newcastle and Sunderland are under such pressure because the PL is such a big deal to stay in..The lower clubs spend a lot of money getting talent and our lower level base is good and there isnt much between the bottom 12 clubs in the pl really. The top 8 are decent enough. but there is a gap, and then if you go down - that is where you find the home grown talent which is actually pretty decent and teams struggle hugely to get back in the PL.

The pressure isn't there in the other two top leagues. They smaller clubs are much smaller than ours.

But tbh i think man city and chelsea are very high quality teams still. City are a funny one as they have so much talent in that team its scary. But there is something missing in Europe.. Chelsea may win this season by about 8 points i feel. But it wont be like previous man u victories or bayerns last season(they won with about 10 games to go)

[super_realist]

Oakey, you do know Bayern have only won 3 out of the last 6 Bundesliga don't you?
Exactly the same as Man United.

There are only 2 grounds in the Bundesliga with grounds smaller than 30k.
There are 4 in the EPL?
Smaller teams?

[mystiroakey]

The lower clubs in germany dont have the money to spend SR.

our teams all get a minimum of 70m tv revenue a year.

Bayern for winning got 30m euros..(domestically )

In Germany the ticket prices are also much cheaper.

so when you go down the league the teams in Germany have less total revenue than just what our bottom place team gets for the PL TV rights.

[Stella]

Ronaldo is playing at such an unreal level at the moment, if he keeps it up for the season I think this will be better than Messi's best run at the top and we might have to start asking whether it's actually Ronaldo who is the best of all time.

Neither one is the best of all time, although I think it is abundantly clear that Ronaldo is a far superior player, overall, to the overrated Messi.

Not sure you can say either is far superior to the other.

[Soldier_Of_Fortune]

Liverpool were shown up for the awful team I always knew them to be. Real took the foot off the gas after about 35 mins and Liverpool still couldn't get close, slow, pedestrian, predictable and generally weak in every area, whilst Sterlings mincing Duncan Norvelle "chase me" runs were snubbed out by the breath of a defender on his back.  Hopeless, I hope they go out.

As for Rodgers criticising Balotelli, well he signed him, what did he expect. It's his fault entirely.

Hilarious stuff.

We were playing the current holder of the comp FFS. Didn't anyone really expect Liverpool to win or get a result?

The first goal was of World Class quality, when we began to chase to game, it was obviously going to play right into there hands. Obviously another scrappy goal from a set piece.

I was quite happy with 3-0 in the end Sadly

Of course no one expected them to do well, 3-0 was extremely flattering. It should and could have been 6-0.
The real concern was ANY lack of urgency or effort, defensively timid and scatterbrained and a complete and utter lack of any sort of ambition or creativity. You could barely even tell Captain No Forehead was on the pitch and it took me about 20 minutes to realise that Balotelli had been subbed, such was his anonymity. Liverpool looked like they'd already played 90 minutes. I've never seen a so called Premiership team so slow and late to the ball, nor have I seen so many predictable passes picked off like that. Defeat was apparently accepted before the kick off, and this was a team that finished second last season in the self proclaimed "greatest league in the world"

The writing was on the wall after their dismal game against QPR.

Rodgers is a complete idiot for signing Balotelli, he should be fining himself for signing such a buffoon.

Take it you've had trouble with scousers in the past wee man

Breathe................

[kingraf]

Not sure what finances have to do with anything to be honest... if it did, Top 14 would be better than SXV... which it isn't.

[super_realist]

The lower clubs in germany dont have the money to spend SR.

our teams all get a minimum of 70m tv revenue a year.

Bayern for winning got 30m euros..(domestically )

In Germany the ticket prices are also much cheaper.

so when you go down the league the teams in Germany have less total revenue than just what our bottom place team gets for the PL TV rights.

They might not have the same money to spend, but that doesn't mean they are poor, they probably don't have the same crippling levels of debt that English clubs have, and currently German teams are significantly outperforming the English ones in Europe on apparently less money.

Personally, I think the German business model is much more sustainable, it's much more in favour of the paying fan. English football could quite easily collapse and it would be hilarious if it did. It's a terribly vulgar operation finely balanced, and probably doomed to fail at some point, it certainly wouldn't be in a position to weather a crisis.

It might well be true that clubs in Germany receive less revenue from TV, but I bet they aren't paying out 90% of their income in salary either and we don't know how much they receive through sponsorships etc. They might be commensurate with EPL teams for all we know, whilst the average stadium size is higher. Cheaper tickets yes, but more fans through the door.

[mystiroakey]

Not sure what finances have to do with anything to be honest... if it did, Top 14 would be better than SXV... which it isn't.

They have everything to do with finances and the pressure to stay in a league that pays such a premium. If you want to talk rugby- point me over there and I will gladly discuss those issues with you there!

[kingraf]

Don't bite mate. Are you really suggesting Bundesliga teams aren't bothered about relegation because it doesn't pay as well?

[mystiroakey]

The lower clubs in germany dont have the money to spend SR.

our teams all get a minimum of 70m tv revenue a year.

Bayern for winning got 30m euros..(domestically )

In Germany the ticket prices are also much cheaper.

so when you go down the league the teams in Germany have less total revenue than just what our bottom place team gets for the PL TV rights.

They might not have the same money to spend, but that doesn't mean they are poor, they probably don't have the same crippling levels of debt that English clubs have, and currently German teams are significantly outperforming the English ones in Europe on apparently less money.

Personally, I think the German business model is much more sustainable, it's much more in favour of the paying fan. English football could quite easily collapse and it would be hilarious if it did. It's a terribly vulgar operation finely balanced, and probably doomed to fail at some point, it certainly wouldn't be in a position to weather a crisis.

It might well be true that clubs in Germany receive less revenue from TV, but I bet they aren't paying out 90% of their income in salary either and we don't know how much they receive through sponsorships etc. They might be commensurate with EPL teams for all we know, whilst the average stadium size is higher. Cheaper tickets yes, but more fans through the door.

I didn't say they were poor. There model is great for there national team as well and great for a top CL team- when everything feeds it to here. But speak to some German club fans mate. They hate Bayern like you wouldn't believe. You see football for the fans is about dreaming to become the best. In Germany- the majority of fans have none of that, they know that there team is just a cog in the wheel.

Our business model is very good- the PL is an amazing export for all off us. Yes it could be hurting our national team. But as a business and a money making enterprise its great for the UK.. A lot of foreign money comes over and stays here. It isnt doomed in the slightest bit.

La liga - well there is a huge issue with that league financially- the debt to equity is criminal. But there are also positives with there league. They get many other social benefits from it.

[mystiroakey]

Don't bite mate. Are you really suggesting Bundesliga teams aren't bothered about relegation because it doesn't pay as well?

whos biting?

do you want to talk rugby or not?

you bring up rugby. I am not going to talk about it on here mate. But I will on the correct forum.

[kingraf]

Depends what you're trying to talk - I don't think there's a doubt that Top 14 has more money than SXV. Don't think there's a question SXV has the higher quality. It's rather straightforward, not sure which part is debatable?

[mystiroakey]

Its a stupid comparison to start with and then we need to base it on many factors..


seriously what are you talking about- lets start of with some like for like comparisons not the French domestic league v a franchised cross regional league/cup.. but anyway - do it on the rugby forum.

[monty junior]

People say the reason the Germany league isn't strong is because there is no competition for the Dortmund and especially Bayern but if Bayern played in the PL I reckon they'd beat the English teams just as easy. The reason the PL is so competitive is because there is no superb team like Bayern, Real or Barca so the games are a lot closer. Look at how City struggled at home to Roma but Bayern tore them apart.

Our lower level teams have more money than the German equivalent- so what do they do. They buy foreign players over bringing up the youth talent. Lower level german clubs cant do that because they dont have the money to and they also don't necessarily need the money because they have more home grown talent.

Huge teams(fan base wise) like Newcastle and Sunderland are under such pressure because the PL is such a big deal to stay in..The lower clubs spend a lot of money getting talent and our lower level base is good and there isnt much between the bottom 12 clubs in the pl really. The top 8 are decent enough. but there is a gap, and then if you go down - that is where you find the home grown talent which is actually pretty decent and teams struggle hugely to get back in the PL.

I think in the first line sums up the problems for the national team, way to much money wasted on extremely average players suffocating the growth of talented youngsters. Whereas in Germany they don't have that and end up with a constant stream of excellent homegrown talent. It's going to work as long as England has the richest league the national team won't really go anywhere (relatively i'd give anything for us to be at World cups again) so it's kind of a double edged sword. 

If you look at the bottom half of the Bundesliga you have bigger teams in Dortmund,Werder Bremen,Stuttgart and Hamburg. The main problem for the Bundesliga is the sub par performances of the big sides leaving Bayern to it at the top. Having said that they've collected the most points of any league the last couple of years.

[mystiroakey]

Thank you for actually reading my post Monty.

I do highlight the negatives as well as the benefits. Its just some posters only want to argue and just pick and choose what to read to continue the argument.

[kingraf]

Your argument seems to center around the fact that the EPL being more financially means that teams make a larger effort to stay in it. The simple rebuttal is, does that mean Bundesliga teams don't mind being relegated? This is a line of thinking parallel to Gerry's "Dortmund won't mind selling Reus because it makes the German national team stronger".

[mystiroakey]

Ducking out of the rugby one. No that isn't what my argument revolves around . re read the posts.

[mystiroakey]

Lille fans causing trouble.

I have been to lille on various occasions. It's a nice town. And pretty chilled. I am pretty surprised tbh.. Its all kicking off

[kingraf]

I didnt duck the rugby argument, I stopped it because you asked me to. I'll answer it then. Top fourteen is financially stronger, Why doesnt that equate to it being stronger than S15? You say its because its unfair to compare an intercontinental tourney to a national one? Fine but then,
1 - Why isnt the Asian Champions League stronger than the EPL?
2 - Taking it to the next logical level, why is the ITM cup itself stronger than the top 14?
3 - If your lower base is so good, why the lack of intercontinental glory against teams in a similar position in their leagues i.e Europa league?

Finally, you do realise that
- Barcelona have made Semis or better every CL since 2008, until last season?
- Bayern have made SF or better in four of five..
- And Real have made Sf plus in four in a row now?
No EPL team can boast similar. So maybe the reason they get beat more domestically is not because the league's more competitive... maybe they just arent as good?

[wadey101]

Exactly kingraf, those teams are just so much better than PL teams. If Bayern played in the PL then I'd expect them to walk the league just like they do in the German league.

[mystiroakey]

Put your comments on the rugby board. I didn't tell you to stop. I told you to point me to a specific thread on the rugby board. I can counter all your arguments all day on the issue. Its a very different make up to football in so many ways. We have many other issues which include wage caps, players blocked internationally from playing overseas , A lot less money. Fans and players in different hemosphers. But as I said I am happy to discuss it.. Maybe another day because I have to go out. But on its specific board. Its a decent debate. And we have some good internationals coming so a good place to start some rugby banter.

[mystiroakey]

Exactly kingraf, those teams are just so much better than PL teams. If Bayern played in the PL then I'd expect them to walk the league just like they do in the German league.

You miss the point. The make up of our league makes it impossible for us to have a Bayern munich in our league . think outside the box.

[mystiroakey]

Oh and Graff I know real, barca and Bayern are better. I have never disputed that. So why are you bringing that up.. What exactly is your point?

What are you adding to this debate bar confusion?

[kingraf]

Honestly mate you're the only confused. It's quite simple. Real and Co are better... so they win their leagues by bigger margins. This doesn't mean that the respective leagues are weaker... it means Real and Co are better. It's hardly A-level geometry.

[mystiroakey]

You are creating a straw man dude.

[kingraf]

Mate what is your argument? You seem to not have one honestly, outside of contending that the EPL has better players lower down, which is pure conjecture, and the strength of the middle table teams can't even be tested as they'd need to do something resembling competitive in Europa. You're argument is based on pseudo economics. Or impossible to practically assess conjecture handed out as facts.

[mystiroakey]

Its based on logic, facts , reasoning and intelligence. You are just trying to create a strawman whenever you can. And the only time you have tried to argue the point you used a ridiculous rugby comparison. In the hope no on else knew about rugby(presumably -because it is nonsense )

If you prefer the bundesliga. Watch the bundelsiga. Its a good league.

[wadey101]

What is your argument then mysti? Raf seems to be arguing that the reason Spanish and German teams win their leagues by so many points is to do with how much better they are and not to do with the leagues being weaker.

It's so hard to work out what you are arguing through all the nonsense you put and telling people they are confused

[super_realist]

I think the main point he was trying to make was that the EPL is more competitive. Yet, there is nothing to suggest it is.

[kingraf]

Mysti no one else has understood your argument. It's highly unlikely that I'm the one in the wrong here. You've attempted to present an opaque argument based off of zero facts (how do you know EPL teams ranked 14-20 are better than Bundesliga or Spanish teams of similar ability? Was there are tournament to prove this? Or are you basing this off of them occasionally beating Citeh?)

The rugby example was valid. You've given no counter save to say it's not the right forum. Further on you've gone from saying the rugby example was a good discussion to calling it ridiculous. Hardly the actions of a person logically or systematically debating a point. In fact it's more associated with people who've gone off the boil.

[mystiroakey]

well the problem we have is that those two agree its more competitive but for a specific outlined reason- in which i do not specifically agree with- there is more to it as I have tried to point out.

the argument started with you and then it become Chinese whispers.

I need to go out dudes..

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I honestly think the best league in the world is the Premier League. I think the competition is greater for positions throughout the league, I think the pace and style of the football is more interesting, I think the variation in football is more interesting, I think the English league structure is a huge positive and brings exciting teams into the mix each year, I think there is a higher standard of top clubs that are more thinly spread than in Spain, Italy or Germany and I think we are generally better run than them all except the Germans who have a wonderful model.

[compelling and rich]

going to join in and also say i think the premier league is the best, dont think anybody is doubting that the likes of real and bayern are the best teams out there and likes of dortmund, barca and athletico have been no mugs either. but think its very simplistic to say bayern win by more by they are just better, the competition is weaker normally by them nicking all the best players from other rivals. we have had great english teams over here and the league was still competitive with any team being able to beat the other on any given day

my biggest problem with the spanish league is that they all play very similar way, meaning you go away to real trying to out play them at football and they just get a beating. it makes the teams very good technically certainly better than most english sides but makes the competition weaker as a spectacle.

[Sponsored content]