606v2 Rugby Fans Scottish Independence Thread

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

 v
Let me start this off, then. I have printed and read all literature which either side has published on this debate over the past 2 years (including the main policy papers from the SNP and from Better Together/UK Treasury and the Wee Blue Book).
 
If I had the chance, I would think hard about it, but ultimately I think that I would vote 'no'.
 
It seems to me, with my pea brain, that:
 
1. As a professional economist, Alex Salmond has had his entire political and professional life to make a waterproof financial case for an independent Scotland. Provided that there isn't something I've missed, I cannot see that he has done so. How can we still be fishing for answers to very fundemental questions so close to the actual voting date? Surely if it was the case that Scotland had a solid long term financial future, there would be a far greater volume of published consensus? If the financial case for independence cannot be clearly and verifiably made (without optimistic financial projects which strain credulity), then this is where this debate begins and ends for me. What do we tell our kids otherwise?
 
2. I entirely understand and appreciate that stepping into the unknown cannot in itself be a reason to say 'no'. You cannot have opportunity without risk. However, is anyone else disappointed with the quality of verifiable information that has been made available to us throughout this entire debate? Whilst I don't expect all answers to all questions, surely it is better to err on the side of caution until such time as policy can be firmly established.
 
If this was a trial, the verdict would be 'not proven'.
 
What I don't believe is if Scotland votes no, the chance to do so again would be lost forever. I think that we may see another vote on this topic within a generation (20 years) if a 'no' vote does not have a clear majority amongst Scottish people. I would be happy with that.
 
Discuss. For the love of feck, please be nice.

[LordDowlais]

Christ SF, why can't you just say all that in one paragraph ? Instead of intertwining words and repeating yourself, just say that you think there will be negotiations. But still, you are not answering any questions, just like the yes campaigners, I will ask you these questions, and if you decide to answer them, please, answer them a little more straight forward so we can read them properly:-

1. What is the plan if Westminster stand by their words and do not let Scotland use the sterling/pound ?

2. What are the plans if a yes vote wins ?

3. What if Westminster do not give Alex Salmond everything he is asking for, and telling the Scottish public that he is indeed having ?

Just those three questions for now.

You obviously need acres of print to get it through to you, not just paragraphs.  I try to make it easy for you by Capitalising certain words, emphahsising certain parts more than once to make the logic clear to you.  

But you persist.  You still won't admit there will be negotiations.  You still can't say it.  The furthest you get is to simply give my opinion back to me:  "You think there will be negotiations"

It's not important what I think - I asked you to admit there will be negotiations.  I didn't ask you to reconfirm that I 'think' there will be negotiations.  BTW - I don't "think" there will be negotiations - I categorically KNOW there will be negotiations if the vote is YES.

Tell me I'm lying or simply admit I'm right.

But you're smart enough not to admit that TRUTH because you know to do so makes your constant list of questions to me obsolete.  Negotiations kill all pre-vote TRUTHS from both sides.  You keep saying the YES camp are being Honest.  I say directly that is a lie.  They are campaigning.  A version is all they offer and they know everything will be on the cards if a YES vote succeeds.

SF, I am talking about facts, they can negotiate about a lot of things, oil, trident, debt, but the one fact is that Westminster HAVE SAID that Scotland WILL NOT GET THE POUND, they might "negotiate" this, they might not, and if Westminster stick to their guns and stand by what they have said, what is Salmonds plan ? He has not got one, that's the truth, and that is a the case when it comes to a lot of things that he is telling people what "he is getting for Scotland".

[fa0019]

my deliberate misinterpretation is a fair reflection of what you have been doing

see what i did there

Nope...it wasn't a wise word curl, Quins...don't try to whisk it off as that now.  It's that when you don't like arguments that weigh to the YES side, or arguments that constantly challenge and kill a good Doomsday scenario script, you think of the opponent as potentially separatist, possibly a dangerous-thought clown and probably genetically seditious.

Afterall, Salmond, the evil man that he is, even got sewer rat, ghettoised-gutter tramps interested in a polling booth and a thing called voting!!!!!  The cheek of the man to indulge the fancies of such people  If they cast a vote its almost like saying its a spoiled vote 'cause they are not informed!  Only University Grads should have the right to vote...and informed people with jobs of course.




Carry on.

SecretFly, please, stop talking in riddles, and please stop being so provocative with how you say things, everybody has the right to vote, everybody, but what is happening here is people are not being told the truth if they vote YES, but seeing as you are so staunch in your views for the YES campaign, then perhaps you can answer the questions that Alex Salmond is so conveniently side stepping, and also can you please tell the YES voters that it will not be all plain sailing for them, and that a YES vote does not mean a utopian country where everything is better, because if we are being honest, it will be a lot worst than it is now.

You haven't been reading me.  You don't need so many 'Pleases'.............. I've already said more than once that honey pots of sunny breakfasts and lovely wheat bread idealism is only for fairytales.  I'm one of the few...................... the FEW.............. who even mention the truth of what will come AFTER the Vote, whichever way it goes.  I don't see you often talking about the truth of the aftermath even though you ask others to pontificate on it repeatedly.  I don't see many YES or NO people talking about the REALITY of the what will happen after any YES vote.  Mostly I hear the stories of Amaggeddon.   I bluntly say "Shyte" to those predictions from all sides.  Darling "Shyte"  Cameron "Shyte"  Banks "Shyte"  Salmond "Shyte".  They're all talking Shyte.

The TRUTH is there will be negotiations - everything on the table - EVERYTHING on the table - in the aftermath of a YES vote, if it happens.  They'll be long, they'll be detailed, much of it will take place behind closed doors and Alex Salmond WILL talk with and chat to Cameron and they will eventually work out a mutually beneficial relationship...

That's the TRUTH.  Are you prepared to admit that's the truth of a future after a prospective YES vote?  Because if you're not prepared to admit that TRUTH then there is liitle need for me to listen to your protestations that everyone else should come clean on the Truth.  You come clean on it.
People are NOT being told the TRUTH by the YES camp.  That is a solid UNTRUTH coming from you.  The YES camp are giving a pre-election VERSION of their Truth - nothing more.  A version of their truth that they know would need to be modified if they have to do business with someone else who holds a different VERSION of their TRUTH in the eventuality of a YES vote.

That's as clear as logic can get.  If you still don't understand me, then its hopeless for both of us because I can't explain logic any better right now.

Christ SF, why can't you just say all that in one paragraph ? Instead of intertwining words and repeating yourself, just say that you think there will be negotiations. But still, you are not answering any questions, just like the yes campaigners, I will ask you these questions, and if you decide to answer them, please, answer them a little more straight forward so we can read them properly:-

1. What is the plan if Westminster stand by their words and do not let Scotland use the sterling/pound ?

2. What are the plans if a yes vote wins ?

3. What if Westminster do not give Alex Salmond everything he is asking for, and telling the Scottish public that he is indeed having ?

Just those three questions for now.

1. They cant stop Scotland using the Pound. Its impossible.
2. er...independence.
3. Clearly if Yes wins there will be negotiations for 18 months and it is also clear that it will be in both iScotlands and rUKs best interest to ensure these work to benefit both entities. Westminister cant and wont say NO NO NO to everything.

Also I watched Salmond on Dimbleby last night as well and thought he made Dimblelby look like a complete novice. Funny how perceptions affect your view. Salmond clearly stated that the details would be worked out post a Yes vote in normal negotiations. The answers to those questions are not forthcoming from Westminister either - in other words if the vote is Yes negotiations start on Friday. Its not that hard to understand and is clearly what Fly is saying.

Well you clearly did not see the bit where Dimbleby asked Salmond if his whole plan was based on him getting every point he is asking for, he said yes, and then when he was asked if he did not get them what would he do, he just rambled on about the MP from Liverpool and how much he supported Salmond, well, that's not an answer, why do people think that because there is negotiations that Salmon will get everything, when it comes to negotiations both sides need something off each other, all Salmond has is the nuclear base, and he wants that gone within five years, Westminster have already said that he will NOT GET THE POUND, because they have said this, he should have plans anyway before negotiations just in case they stand by their words, he does not have this.

Easy to look statesman like if you only answer what you want to say and won't answer any direct questions.

What will you do if monetary union is off the table? I'm confident it isn't and we will negotiate a settlement that's right for Scotland.

Ok, but what if its not an option.... I'm confident it isn't and we will negotiate a settlement that's right for Scotland.

[ME-109]

There are many options open to an iScotland. It is clear it is in rUK and iScotlands best interests to maintain close interests initially. Otherwise..
http://www.cityam.com/1410805255/scotland-could-keep-pound-cost-its-monetary-independence

[ME-109]

FA what do you expect him to do here. In effect the vote is just the starting point the ultimate negotiations follow. He has indicated his preference, rUK have said no way. Its called negotiation positioning. Both sides are guilty of this - i.e Cameron..-then-.we are not having DevoMax on the ballot paper..-Now - If you vote no we will give you DevoMax.

Whatever the outcome of the referendum...there is still going to be a hell of a lot of negotiations afterwards.

[LordDowlais]

FA what do you expect him to do here.

Well, perhpas answering the question and giving the people he has following him the truth.

[SecretFly]

Lord.

Westminster say Salmond and Scotland will NOT GET THE POUND.

Okay.  Let's bank that declaration.

Salmond says Scotland WILL KEEP THE POUND.

Let's bank that too.

Now, let's recap.  Westminster will not move.  Even in negotiations Scotland WILL NOT GET THE POUND.  Westminster will refuse to put it on the list for discussion.

So far you agree?  You must because you say if Westminster says it, it's written in stone and they are being brutally honest.

Salmond says I have my own list of essential topics for negotiations.  Under no circumstances will I turn up for any negotiations about security, debt, transport, border controls, trade, etc unless THE POUND IS ON THE AGENDA.

Now you're starting to disagree with me.  You say Salmond is not in a position to demand that.  I say he is, because in high end governmental negotiations where everyone wants certain things (and England will need certain guarantees from Scotland for it's own security and economic benefits) a compromise of negotiation topics must be had.

So.............  Cameron, in the interests of all the other things he NEEDS to accomplish to secure England's interests in their new relationship with Scotland must concede that THE POUND WILL BE DISCUSSED

So................ Cameron didn't tell the truth after all.  Westminster's promise that SCOTLAND WILL NOT GET THE POUND is broken as discussions about the pound in negotiations raises the possibility that they will.  THE POUND BECOMES A CENTRAL NEGOTIATING TOPIC.

[ME-109]

But he has....he has a negotiating position. there are a number of items on the table. I refer you to the point on DevoMax. Now rUK say not pound/monetary union. It is a fact (unless those in Westminister are complete dufus's) that that position will need to change and be negotiated into a mutually beneficial approach.

He doesnt know the answer until the negotiations (if a Yes) are concluded. That is a fact...its not about telling the truth or otherwise...

[fa0019]

Christ SF, why can't you just say all that in one paragraph ? Instead of intertwining words and repeating yourself, just say that you think there will be negotiations. But still, you are not answering any questions, just like the yes campaigners, I will ask you these questions, and if you decide to answer them, please, answer them a little more straight forward so we can read them properly:-

1. What is the plan if Westminster stand by their words and do not let Scotland use the sterling/pound ?

2. What are the plans if a yes vote wins ?

3. What if Westminster do not give Alex Salmond everything he is asking for, and telling the Scottish public that he is indeed having ?

Just those three questions for now.

You obviously need acres of print to get it through to you, not just paragraphs.  I try to make it easy for you by Capitalising certain words, emphahsising certain parts more than once to make the logic clear to you.  

But you persist.  You still won't admit there will be negotiations.  You still can't say it.  The furthest you get is to simply give my opinion back to me:  "You think there will be negotiations"

It's not important what I think - I asked you to admit there will be negotiations.  I didn't ask you to reconfirm that I 'think' there will be negotiations.  BTW - I don't "think" there will be negotiations - I categorically KNOW there will be negotiations if the vote is YES.

Tell me I'm lying or simply admit I'm right.

But you're smart enough not to admit that TRUTH because you know to do so makes your constant list of questions to me obsolete.  Negotiations kill all pre-vote TRUTHS from both sides.  You keep saying the YES camp are being Honest.  I say directly that is a lie.  They are campaigning.  A version is all they offer and they know everything will be on the cards if a YES vote succeeds.

SF, I am talking about facts, they can negotiate about a lot of things, oil, trident, debt, but the one fact is that Westminster HAVE SAID that Scotland WILL NOT GET THE POUND, they might "negotiate" this, they might not, and if Westminster stick to their guns and stand by what they have said, what is Salmonds plan ? He has not got one, that's the truth, and that is a the case when it comes to a lot of things that he is telling people what "he is getting for Scotland".

Chaps, of course their will be negotiations. But that doesn't mean one side will compromise.

We negotiate with the USA all the time... gets us nowhere and we end up agreeing to literally everything they say/do/suggest.

Trident - we all agree with that at the moment.... maybe even regardless of independence or not, perhaps it should go to England longterm.

Currency - 3 parties and BoE says no. That's pretty strong. If it is a bluff its the best bluff ever and if it wasn't it would project genuine weakness to the rUK electorate who would see it as a compromise on their sovereignty.... something they will never forgive those who agree it.

To help the Scottish government plug their funding gap I would say the BoE should offer them a longterm loan (ie. not Wonga) to cover their shortfall and mean they don't have to go to the markets with painful repayment schemes. UBS have said today that the Scottish govt. would need 100bn or they will go bust. I would offer that and help to create a new central bank in Scotland to assist their own currency.

Scotland need financing. Oil has already dropped $20 in a month unrelated to Scottish independence.

For any of those who have bought a house, you know when you move regardless of all the things you may already have... you spend a lot of money here and there.  They say they will maintain grants to the scientific community in universities, lottery funding for sport, other things which are done on a national level etc. The Scottish govt. will need a lot of start up cash.

That is certainly something that would help to prevent them from dropping the debt. No one else will lend to them at preferential rates bar the IMF.

[fa0019]

But he has....he has a negotiating position. there are a number of items on the table. I refer you to the point on DevoMax. Now rUK say not pound/monetary union. It is a fact (unless those in Westminister are complete dufus's) that that position will need to change and be negotiated into a mutually beneficial approach.

He doesnt know the answer until the negotiations (if a Yes) are concluded. That is a fact...its not about telling the truth or otherwise...

Why is it a fact?

Its the recommendation of nearly all neutrals and importantly the non-biased BoE that it would not work and is not in either Scotland or rUK's best interests.

Tell me this... how do you think the rUK electorate will take them going into a currency union with another country? How would they feel knowing their tax money will potentially be used to bail out someone else? What incentive does the junior party have in keeping to the bargain... they can overspend and provide THEIR people with the public services they pledged and if they go bust... hey, uncle rUK picks up the bill???

The people will not stand for it. It would be worse than the Labour 1983 manifesto.

[LordDowlais]

Lord.

Westminster say Salmond and Scotland will NOT GET THE POUND.

Okay.  Let's bank that declaration.

Salmond says Scotland WILL KEEP THE POUND.

Let's bank that too.

Now, let's recap.  Westminster will not move.  Even in negotiations Scotland WILL NOT GET THE POUND.  Westminster will refuse to put it on the list for discussion.

So far you agree?  You must because you say if Westminster says it, it's written in stone and they are being brutally honest.

Salmond says I have my own list of essential topics for negotiations.  Under no circumstances will I turn up for any negotiations about security, debt, transport, border controls, trade, etc unless THE POUND IS ON THE AGENDA.

Now you're starting to disagree with me.  You say Salmond is not in a position to demand that.  I say he is, because in high end governmental negotiations where everyone wants certain things (and England will need certain guarantees from Scotland for it's own security and economic benefits) a compromise of negotiation topics must be had.

So.............  Cameron, in the interests of all the other things he NEEDS to accomplish to secure England's interests in their new relationship with Scotland must concede that THE POUND WILL BE DISCUSSED

So................ Cameron didn't tell the truth after all.  Westminster's promise that SCOTLAND WILL NOT GET THE POUND is broken as discussions about the pound in negotiations raises the possibility that they will.  THE POUND BECOMES A CENTRAL NEGOTIATING TOPIC.

They can discuss all they like, if Westminster stand by their words, then Salmond needs a backup plan, and he doesn't, but he keeps telling everybody it will be all fine and dandy, but he does not know this and he needs to be up front about it.

[quinsforever]

on currency there are only two options available to Salmond if rUK rule out a currency union.

1) use sterling anyway [aka sterlingisation]. would require significant shrinkage/relocation of financial sector or indeed any companies with large debt. reason is that in the event of a future devaluation, any companies with debt in sterling, with businesses in the "new" currency post devaluation would effectively be bankrupt overnight. and future devaluation is ALWAYS a possibility with a non-permanent currency sharing where monetary policy is only set for 1 of the countries. there is also the technical issues of the large and credible amounts of reserves the new BoS (central bank) would require in order to stick to sterlingisation as it cant print money.

2) get a new currency. unlikely to be the Euro initially as even EU membership is not guaranteed. again this requires lots of reserves at the new BoE. but this is ultimately the way to go as it gives the Scots control over monetary policy as well as fiscal. BUT this will be costly to set up, and Scotland's cost of funding will, until its policies and economy and politicians prove themselves prudent, be prob1.5-2% higher than the UK's.

there are no alternatives. If i were the new Chancellor of Scotland i would push for the creation of my own currency, which initially i would aim to informally peg to sterling. this would give some of the benefit of rUK's low cost of borring, which giving time to see whether the two economies evolve at different speeds and judging whether it would be appropriate to free float the new Scots currency when more monetary policy flexibility was needed. (while avoiding a black friday currency collapse scenario by not sticking to the pound beyond the point where its no longer a credible peg).

[SecretFly]

Easy to look statesman like if you only answer what you want to say and won't answer any direct questions.

What will you do if monetary union is off the table? I'm confident it isn't and we will negotiate a settlement that's right for Scotland.

Ok, but what if its not an option.... I'm confident it isn't and we will negotiate a settlement that's right for Scotland.

fa, what will Cameron do if he's forced to add The Pound to the negotiating table?

You all talk about Salmond not answering the 'what if's'????  Well, firstly, he'd be a fool of a politician if he blindly walked into those mousetrap questions.  As I said before: "Oh we're f**Ked if that happens!!"  You really think any shrewd politican is going to go there just because the questioner is a Dimbleby?

BUT....the other point I'll get back to.  Salmond is being asked these hard "What if" questions.  But Cameron and Westminster aren't.  No "What if you have to negotiate and the Pound is very much on the table?"
- "We won't negotiate.  The pound is off the agenda.  Scotland aren't getting it"  
- "But what if it is on the agenda and they do get it?"

Has Cameron been asked this?   I didn't hear it.  And had he been asked that, would his response be:  "I'll be f**king mad if we have to give them basterauds the pound after me being force to say all through the campaign that they'd never get it.  It's going to make me look weak.  I wouldn't be looking forward to that."

Is Cameron going to say something like that to Dimbleby?  Like hell he is.  He'll simply say: "Dimbleby...you're not listening to me.  Read my lips - Scotland are not getting the pound!"

[quinsforever]

Easy to look statesman like if you only answer what you want to say and won't answer any direct questions.

What will you do if monetary union is off the table? I'm confident it isn't and we will negotiate a settlement that's right for Scotland.

Ok, but what if its not an option.... I'm confident it isn't and we will negotiate a settlement that's right for Scotland.

fa, what will Cameron do if he's forced to add The Pound to the negotiating table?

You all talk about Salmond not answering the 'what if's'????  Well, firstly, he'd be a fool of a politician if he blindly walked into those mousetrap questions.  As I said before: "Oh we're f**Ked if that happens!!"  You really think any shrewd politican is going to go there just because the questioner is a Dimbleby?

BUT....the other point I'll get back to.  Salmond is being asked these hard "What if" questions.  But Cameron and Westminster aren't.  No "What if you have to negotiate and the Pound is very much on the table?"
- "We won't negotiate.  The pound is off the agenda.  Scotland aren't getting it"  
- "But what if it is on the agenda and they do get it?"

Has Cameron been asked this?   I didn't hear it.  And had he been asked that, would his response be:  "I'll be f**king mad if we have to give them basterauds the pound after me being force to say all through the campaign that they'd never get it.  It's going to make me look weak.  I wouldn't be looking forward to that."

Is Cameron going to say something like that to Dimbleby?  Like hell he is.  He'll simply say: "Dimbleby...you're not listening to me.  Read my lips - Scotland are not getting the pound!"

that would be like leaving the milk out of the fridge on a warm day.

i would just say, oh sorry that should nt be there, and promptly stick it back in the fridge.

thats what the rUK would say if keeping the pound were seen to somehow have reappeared on the negotiating table

[SecretFly]

They can discuss all they like, if Westminster stand by their words, then Salmond needs a backup plan, and he doesn't, but he keeps telling everybody it will be all fine and dandy, but he does not know this and he needs to be up front about it.

They all need backup plans if people stridently 'stand by their word'. If Cameron won't budge on certain things, then you can be damn certain that Salmond (man that he is) won't budge on others. And it is absolutely certain Cameron will need budging from the Scots on certain issues. The break up of a small island almost down the middle requires sensitive negotations for everyone to come out reasonably happy with the conclusion. If nobody is happy then its counterproductive for the security and economic security of both camps.

[LordDowlais]

Is Cameron going to say something like that to Dimbleby?  Like hell he is.  He'll simply say: "Dimbleby...you're not listening to me.  Read my lips - Scotland are not getting the pound!"

This is becuase Cameron does not need to answer these questions, the pound belongs to the UK, it is the UK's pound to share or keep, Salmond is telling everybody "It's all fine, we'll have the pound" , but will he ? It does not sound like it sweatheart, and you had better come up with some idea's post haste, but like on a lot of other matters, he has no idea's if things do not end up the way he wants, and again I find myself saying this, THE SCOTTISH PUBLIC NEED TO BE TOLD THIS BEFORE THEY VOTE.

[Scrumpy]

What’s worrying is that the 'YES' campaigners on the street have resorted to a 1930s German style of intimidation against anyone who says No or displays No banners

Scotland please vote with caution and vote with you heads!

[LordDowlais]

They can discuss all they like, if Westminster stand by their words, then Salmond needs a backup plan, and he doesn't, but he keeps telling everybody it will be all fine and dandy, but he does not know this and he needs to be up front about it.

They all need backup plans if people stridently 'stand by their word'.  If Cameron won't budge on certain things, then you can be damn certain that Salmond (man that he is) won't budge on others.  And it is absolutely certain Cameron will need budging from the Scots on certain issues.  The break up of a small island almost down the middle requires sensitive negotations for everyone to come out reasonably happy with the conclusion.  If nobody is happy then its counterproductive for the security and economic security of both camps.

But what has Salmond got that he could compromise on ? Ok he has the nuclear base, but he wants that gone in 5yrs, he could let the UK keep it there, but, do the UK want to keep it there ? He has some oil, will he give any to the UK ? He needs the oil to support ALL his claims, so I do not think there will be much movement there. The simple facts are, as Cameron has already said, you go, and you are on your own, there will be no comming back, for me those words are a lot more scary than, "Take your nuclear base, and shove somewhere in the UK"

[fa0019]

Easy to look statesman like if you only answer what you want to say and won't answer any direct questions.

What will you do if monetary union is off the table? I'm confident it isn't and we will negotiate a settlement that's right for Scotland.

Ok, but what if its not an option.... I'm confident it isn't and we will negotiate a settlement that's right for Scotland.

fa, what will Cameron do if he's forced to add The Pound to the negotiating table?

You all talk about Salmond not answering the 'what if's'????  Well, firstly, he'd be a fool of a politician if he blindly walked into those mousetrap questions.  As I said before: "Oh we're f**Ked if that happens!!"  You really think any shrewd politican is going to go there just because the questioner is a Dimbleby?

BUT....the other point I'll get back to.  Salmond is being asked these hard "What if" questions.  But Cameron and Westminster aren't.  No "What if you have to negotiate and the Pound is very much on the table?"
- "We won't negotiate.  The pound is off the agenda.  Scotland aren't getting it"  
- "But what if it is on the agenda and they do get it?"

Has Cameron been asked this?   I didn't hear it.  And had he been asked that, would his response be:  "I'll be f**king mad if we have to give them basterauds the pound after me being force to say all through the campaign that they'd never get it.  It's going to make me look weak.  I wouldn't be looking forward to that."

Is Cameron going to say something like that to Dimbleby?  Like hell he is.  He'll simply say: "Dimbleby...you're not listening to me.  Read my lips - Scotland are not getting the pound!"

Scenario 1

ok so its rUK's to give right... Scotland can't just get a union without rUK's agreement so the ball is in rUK's court. If they say its off the table and (lets pretend for arguments sake it is).. then its off the table. They say, look we will help you set up your own currency, we will loan you capital so that you have your own reserves and are able to use to plug your funding gap for your first few years.... but that's it.

It won't be end of negotiations.

Salmond needs to stay in them. Can't simply say right, boo hoo, they won't give me what I want so to hell with everything else.... I want my shared currency, I want my shared currency (like some very intelligent 3year old wailing)

Scenario 2

rUK turnsaround and says

you got me Alex... here's your union. Now after Mark Carney, David Cameron, Ed Balls, Danny Alexander all said, no way Jose..... they would all look incredibly stupid and probably, quite probably most will pay with their jobs. So its pretty extreme game they are playing... and all colluding to.

I don't think the electorate would forgive them either. Whoever agrees be it Tories or Labour they would pay with a defeat in the next election.

Britain is a very insular nation, anti EU for the same reasons... they won't like it.

[SecretFly]

Is Cameron going to say something like that to Dimbleby?  Like hell he is.  He'll simply say: "Dimbleby...you're not listening to me.  Read my lips - Scotland are not getting the pound!"

This is becuase Cameron does not need to answer these questions, the pound belongs to the UK, it is the UK's pound to share or keep, Salmond is telling everybody "It's all fine, we'll have the pound" , but will he ? It does not sound like it sweatheart, and you had better come up with some idea's post haste, but like on a lot of other matters, he has no idea's if things do not end up the way he wants, and again I find myself saying this, THE SCOTTISH PUBLIC NEED TO BE TOLD THIS BEFORE THEY VOTE.

I'm going to have to say it...but that's just a naive understanding of how things play out in the real world.

"We're bigger than you lot, and when we say you're not getting it, then you're not getting it.... and we own it too - so there!"

Well, such an attitude highlights a few things:

1. It's 3rd world negotiating skills that don't last long in mahoganyed pragmatic civil-service boardrooms in the western world.  Well, that kind of talk can go on but when genuine work needs to happen, it eases off and work begins.

2. If Salmond genuinely wants the pound, if he genuinely wants to discuss it, if he genuinely wants to use it in the negotiations, then it'll be a topic in the negotiations.  Fact.  Now Cameron might keep saying NO all through those negotiations, but he'll be forced to tell the truth that the Pound IS being discussed in those negotiations.  So yep, Cameron very much needs to answer these "What If" questions...unless of course you're in the NO camp and you don't want to hear Dimblby either asking the questions or Cameron talking around the answers

3. The UK own the Pound right now (is Scotland not a full member of the State that created it and administers it?)  Of course they are.  So rather than it in legal terms being a question of: "You're not getting it"  It must truly be more of a case of: "So what are we going to do with the Pound?" from both sides.  That won't be admitted to in public but England don't own the Pound - at least not yet, until the very day Scotland stop co-owning it and using it.

4.  With that "We're bigger than you and own more things than you" beligerent attitude, if it was to exist in negotiations, which I doubt - well, then, such attitude would prove to Salmond and the Scottish people that their decision to leave the Union was probably a very good one for the very reasons of such superior attitudes coming from any YOU'RE  NOT GETTING OUR POUND crusaders.

[LordDowlais]

Well SF, you fourth point, has conveniently answered your third point for me. Cheers for that.

Also, England will never own the pound, the UK owns it, and this is a point that we have been skirting around for some time now, the fact that people outside of the UK, like yourself, are basing everything on England, when you NEED to get past it, people, like myself, are very pround of being part of the UK, I certainly do not see myself as being "RULED" by the English, and this is why I care so much, I do not want to see a break up of the UK, and the people who are voting for YES in Scotland are mostly doing it out of hatred towards the English, well I suppose they must hate the Welsh and Northern Irish aswell because we are all the same.

[SecretFly]

Britain is a very insular nation, anti EU for the same reasons... they won't like it.

Hey...easy! It''s talk like that that probably creates the conditions of an Independence referendum in Scotland.
'Britain' ain't anti-EU. England might be and I might be in the same camp as them on that idea But it's England that are assumed to be anti-EU. Scotland seems to be okay with the idea of the EU.
But there again, even in passing converstion, the constant feeling amongst some is that you'd are right in your sentence construction, ie. Britain is England mostly and a few other places tagged onto them for economic security.

[SecretFly]

Well SF, you fourth point, has conveniently answered your third point for me. Cheers for that.

Elaborate please because I think you're wrong there...

[Irish Londoner]

With regard to the "you're not getting the pound and that is not negotiable", stance, wasn't the stance of the main UK parties until a week or so ago also "this is a straighforward in or out referendum, there is no mention of DevoMax on the ballot and there is no intention to offer Scotland any more DevoMax into the future, this is a one-off take it or leave it deal".

Now all of a sudden the UK party leaders are handing out promises and money like sailors on shore leave in a knocking shop.

[fa0019]

Of course you are right Fly

It will be negotiated but I doubt the rUK team will have anything more to say than, "Sorry no and for these reasons Alex. Now we can offer you xyz to help you set youself up but our position is final"

Its the UK pound. As Scotland leaves everything from the assets, the liabilities, the treaties, the memberships go to the remaining country... that's international law.

UK pound or not though... its not the use of the pound which is in question.. its Scotland and rUK joining up to use A pound. And you need 2 agreeing to make it work. If you only have one... then the one that wants it will be in a bit of a pickle.

Look I'm a Scot... I don't think its the right decision for my country. My sparring partner here As Long As on this topic actually agrees with me (the only thing we do on this topic!!!). We both believe that our own currency is the best however difficult it may be to set up. I'm not a crusader against Scotland taking the  pound... having independence and then all of a sudden no control over our own monetary policy and being tied to strict fiscal policy is no independence at all and probably in a worse state than the current situation.

If it was the best plan I'd take it. It isn't the best plan for either and certainly not for rUK. That's why I'm saying they won't get it as well as nearly everyone to the pope are telling Alex to get off the crack pipe and talk sense.

NB - obviously not suggesting Alex is on crack....that was so 90s!

[LordDowlais]

Well you say that "ENGLAND" not the UK are being bullies by not giving their pound away, and you say then no wonder the Sottish have a good reason for leaving the union, but half of Sotland and Salmond WANT to leave th UK anyway, so if they want to go, they can, whats stopping them, besides half their own population ? If they go, they go, and they should not be able to pick what they want to take with them, it's their choice at the end of the day, we are not kicking them out, we are trying to make them stay.

[fa0019]

Britain is a very insular nation, anti EU for the same reasons... they won't like it.

Hey...easy!  It''s talk like that that probably creates the conditions of an Independence referendum in Scotland.  
'Britain' ain't anti-EU.  England might be and I might be in the same camp as them on that idea  But it's England that are assumed to be anti-EU.  Scotland seems to be okay with the idea of the EU.
But there again, even in passing converstion, the constant feeling amongst some is that you'd are right in your sentence construction, ie. Britain is England mostly and a few other places tagged onto them for economic security.

Britain is an insular nation though, they don't like foreign intervention, they don't like others controlling them. We are an island people. We haven't be conquered since 1066 unless you count Justin Bieber and Starbucks. Its not bragging, its the way British people are. They are very proud. Doesn't mean they are racist, they are some of the most tolerant people on the planet but they don't like others intervening in their own affairs.

[LordDowlais]

Britain is a very insular nation, anti EU for the same reasons... they won't like it.

Hey...easy!  It''s talk like that that probably creates the conditions of an Independence referendum in Scotland.  
'Britain' ain't anti-EU.  England might be and I might be in the same camp as them on that idea  But it's England that are assumed to be anti-EU.  Scotland seems to be okay with the idea of the EU.
But there again, even in passing converstion, the constant feeling amongst some is that you'd are right in your sentence construction, ie. Britain is England mostly and a few other places tagged onto them for economic security.

Britain is an insular nation though, they don't like foreign intervention, they don't like others controlling them. We are an island people. We haven't be conquered since 1066 unless you count Justin Bieber and Starbucks. Its not bragging, its the way British people are. They are very proud. Doesn't mean they are racist, they are some of the most tolerant people on the planet but they don't like others intervening in their own affairs.

Here, Here.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Well SF, you fourth point, has conveniently answered your third point for me. Cheers for that.

Also, England will never own the pound, the UK owns it, and this is a point that we have been skirting around for some time now, the fact that people outside of the UK, like yourself, are basing everything on England, when you NEED to get past it, people, like myself, are very pround of being part of the UK, I certainly do not see myself as being "RULED" by the English, and this is why I care so much, I do not want to see a break up of the UK, and the people who are voting for YES in Scotland are mostly doing it out of hatred towards the English, well I suppose they must hate the Welsh and Northern Irish aswell because we are all the same.

I am so glad you do not have a vote as you clearly have some serious 'issues' here ! Maybe go for a wee lie down somewhere dark ?

[SecretFly]

Well SF, you fourth point, has conveniently answered your third point for me. Cheers for that.

Also, England will never own the pound, the UK owns it, and this is a point that we have been skirting around for some time now, the fact that people outside of the UK, like yourself, are basing everything on England, when you NEED to get past it, people, like myself, are very pround of being part of the UK, I certainly do not see myself as being "RULED" by the English, and this is why I care so much, I do not want to see a break up of the UK, and the people who are voting for YES in Scotland are mostly doing it out of hatred towards the English, well I suppose they must hate the Welsh and Northern Irish aswell because we are all the same.

All that is a personally held presumption of yours alone.  Everyone else will I'm sure have their own actual reasons for wanting an Independent Scotland.  I'm also certain a percentage of those people will have reasons which revolve around 'hatred' towards the English.  Yes, true.  (You see how easily I'll agree with things I consider true? without pretending I don't agree just to stay on a YES message)  It's also true that 'hatred' of the English isn't remotely on the minds of many many other Scottish people who wish to be Independent for their personal financial and/or spiritual reasons

I realise the emotiveness of the subject but you can't articulate an entire debate on Scottish Independence around a simple query that if you, as a Welsh man, feel proud of being from the UK, then why shouldn't all Scottish people feel as you do.  The fact is, those that don't feel as you do, don't feel as you do.
Plus - its' not just people from outside that are drawing sweeping generalities between the Scottishness of the debate and the 'Englishness' of it. That's happening, however inaccurately, across the board - from both sets of supporters in the UK itself, commentators, newspapers and ordinary citizens of the UK.  It's certainly not just outsiders who have fixated on the 'Englishness' of the UK.

[Notch]

Well SF, you fourth point, has conveniently answered your third point for me. Cheers for that.

Also, England will never own the pound, the UK owns it, and this is a point that we have been skirting around for some time now, the fact that people outside of the UK, like yourself, are basing everything on England, when you NEED to get past it, people, like myself, are very pround of being part of the UK, I certainly do not see myself as being "RULED" by the English, and this is why I care so much, I do not want to see a break up of the UK, and the people who are voting for YES in Scotland are mostly doing it out of hatred towards the English, well I suppose they must hate the Welsh and Northern Irish aswell because we are all the same.

I take exception to that. Because they do not. They absolutely do not.

Remember to love your country is NOT to hate all others. I have many friends who are voting Yes who are in fact tolerant, kind and open-minded. As a Northern Irish person who moved to Scotland at a very young age I, a Primary-school age boy, was subjected to many jokes and generalisations about the Troubles by adults within my first years living there. There were others who saw my presence as an invitation to hold forth about their views on the Northern Ireland situation. But Aberdeen wasn't too bad. The central belt was worse for that- the worst of all were the Rangers and Celtic fans who wanted to emulate the sectarianism of Northern Ireland! They wanted to emulate Northern Ireland?! As I spent more and more time in Scotland I became convinced it should be the other way around.

I envied Scotland a lot when I compared it to my own home. I envied its political culture, the absence of violence and intimidation from the everyday discourse and the feeling I could be whoever and whatever I wanted to be regardless of what church my parents went to or what 'community' I was from. It was a more open-minded, tolerant society than Northern Ireland and it allowed me to be a more open-minded, tolerant kind of person.

But even if I sometimes felt like an outsider when I was still just growing up in Scotland I did make many friends that I keep to this day growing up. People who were kind towards me, welcoming and warm, who didn't care a jot where I was from. I haven't kept in touch with all of them, over the years we drift away and lose touch with our friends. But those who I do keep in touch with are all YES voters. I know other people I don't talk to anymore who would be strong, strong NO voters. Most people I still know are going for YES.

So I don't accept this pejorative characterisation that all YES voters are raving anti-English hooligans and all this is motivated by hatred of the English. It's not true and I know its not true, because all the small sample of people I know who are voting YES are guilty of is loving the country they live in and thinking it should run its own affairs. They are optimistic, and filled with hope and idealism. It may be that that hope and idealism is tragically misplaced. I desperately, desperately hope they are not failed by their leaders. I mistrust Salmond immensely and the closer the vote gets the more intense misgivings I have about him. But I also trust the Scottish electorate to throw him out on his arse if- or more likely when- he is shown up.

I know the one thing that does not motivate my friends, as small and unrepresentative a drop in the ocean as they may be, is hatred. It may be that there are elements of the YES support that are motivated by that, I don't know the massive number of Scots who will vote YES personally, it's a complex and evolving political movement that no politician can truly pretend to legitimately speak for- but this has not about sticking a finger in the eye of their larger neighbour. This has been about whats best for Scotland.

I don't know what answer on Friday morning is going to be best for Scotland- now, 10 years from now, 50 years from now, 100 years from now. I don't know. But as someone who has love and respect for that country and everything they gave me and my family, and continue to give us, I hope it works out for both sides.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Glove

That's the problem

We see it in South Africa all the time. Call it hire a mob.

They bus groups of people in and get them to protest from town to town. Different days, same people. Often on the promise of a free meal alone.

But the fact that its just laughed off as banter is simply terrible.

I'll admit it is slightly suspicious just how quickly the protestors outside the BBC got that glossy well printed banner calling for Nick Robinson's resignation made...

But you can't deny that some of the protests are great banter, like the person outside the BBC with the clearly home-made sign saying, "look Mum, I'm not on TV".

Or this guy in rickshaw with a megaphone welcoming the 100 Labour MP's to Glasgow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiMXuEmqAHA More of this sort of thing please!

Love it - very, very good stunt. Bet every one of these Labour baw- bags claims their train fare back - corrupt tw8ts

[SecretFly]

Britain is a very insular nation, anti EU for the same reasons... they won't like it.

Hey...easy!  It''s talk like that that probably creates the conditions of an Independence referendum in Scotland.  
'Britain' ain't anti-EU.  England might be and I might be in the same camp as them on that idea  But it's England that are assumed to be anti-EU.  Scotland seems to be okay with the idea of the EU.
But there again, even in passing converstion, the constant feeling amongst some is that you'd are right in your sentence construction, ie. Britain is England mostly and a few other places tagged onto them for economic security.

Britain is an insular nation though, they don't like foreign intervention, they don't like others controlling them. We are an island people. We haven't be conquered since 1066 unless you count Justin Bieber and Starbucks. Its not bragging, its the way British people are. They are very proud. Doesn't mean they are racist, they are some of the most tolerant people on the planet but they don't like others intervening in their own affairs.

Hmmm........  not sure how to read that?  Did I mention the word 'racist'?  Did I accuse anyone of being racist?  I don't know where that came from, fa.  Or am I simply being told in a subtle way that my non-British views are not required and not welcome?

Nope, my point in my post was that the perception in the world in general - and I'd press anyone to prove me wrong - in large swathes of the world, when you mention Britain - the listener quite often automatically thinks 'England'.
That's just another simple truth.  And I just found it pointed that in your post, even you, as a Scot, claim that the British think something as a whole.  I said well, no, not really - it's quite well known that the Scottish British don't think like their English British neighbours in all things - most pointedly in the one you mentioned - the EU.  The British are a collection of folks, they are not all the one brand of folks - if you get my meaning - proof being the referendum we're talking about.

Plus... telling an Irish person about the qualities of 'not liking others intervening in their own affairs' and outlining them as though an Irish man wouldn't be familiar with them is a little funny, don't you think.  We know all about Pride over here as an island people and the price in blood you sometimes have to pay to get it. Thus why I think a vote in Scotland is a beautiful symbol in this vicious world we live in right now.... a beautiful symbol that should be celebrated.  Not the result (which whether YES or NO is the choice of the Scottisah people themselves) - but the act of peacefully voting to decide on something itself - celebrate it.

[Scrumpy]

I wonder which way James Bond would vote?

[Adam D]

I wonder which way James Bond would vote?

Which one? The Scottish one (SC) or the Welsh one (TD)?

[fa0019]

Britain is a very insular nation, anti EU for the same reasons... they won't like it.

Hey...easy!  It''s talk like that that probably creates the conditions of an Independence referendum in Scotland.  
'Britain' ain't anti-EU.  England might be and I might be in the same camp as them on that idea  But it's England that are assumed to be anti-EU.  Scotland seems to be okay with the idea of the EU.
But there again, even in passing converstion, the constant feeling amongst some is that you'd are right in your sentence construction, ie. Britain is England mostly and a few other places tagged onto them for economic security.

Britain is an insular nation though, they don't like foreign intervention, they don't like others controlling them. We are an island people. We haven't be conquered since 1066 unless you count Justin Bieber and Starbucks. Its not bragging, its the way British people are. They are very proud. Doesn't mean they are racist, they are some of the most tolerant people on the planet but they don't like others intervening in their own affairs.

Hmmm........  not sure how to read that?  Did I mention the word 'racist'?  Did I accuse anyone of being racist?  I don't know where that came from, fa.  Or am I simply being told in a subtle way that my non-British views are not required and not welcome?

Nope, my point in my post was that the perception in the world in general - and I'd press anyone to prove me wrong - in large swathes of the world, when you mention Britain - the listener quite often automatically thinks 'England'.
That's just another simple truth.  And I just found it pointed that in your post, even you, as a Scot, claim that the British think something as a whole.  I said well, no, not really - it's quite well known that the Scottish British don't think like their English British neighbours in all things - most pointedly in the one you mentioned - the EU.  The British are a collection of folks, they are not all the one brand of folks - if you get my meaning - proof being the referendum we're talking about.

Plus... telling an Irish person about the qualities of 'not liking others intervening in their own affairs' and outlining them as though an Irish man wouldn't be familiar with them is a little funny, don't you think.  We know all about Pride over here as an island people and the price in blood you sometimes have to pay to get it. Thus why I think a vote in Scotland is a beautiful symbol in this vicious world we live in right now.... a beautiful symbol that should be celebrated.  Not the result (which whether YES or NO is the choice of the Scottisah people themselves) - but the act of peacefully voting to decide on something itself - celebrate it.

na just that insular often leads to racist accusations.

We don't like them one minute but we love them the next. We hate their football team sure, chaps like Will Carling too but if you can't have a pantomime villain like old bumface then what we going to do huh???

I grew up in mixed hatred/awe myself of Brian Moore. The fight in him is perhaps never been surpassed.  When you see how little he actually was too its simply amazing even back then.

That's the thing... we love each other, we hate each other. We're so intermixed racially with each other its undeniable we're all and the same

Take the monarchy.. think of their lineage

We had the Georgians & Windsors - Danish/German
Stuarts - Scottish
Tudors - Welsh
Plantagents - French

That's the British royal family for you (and if you believe Mel Gibson... a little bit of rogue scots blood too)

[Scrumpy]

I wonder which way James Bond would vote?

Which one? The Scottish one (SC) or the Welsh one (TD)?

The real one!

[SecretFly]

I wonder which way James Bond would vote?

Which one? The Scottish one (SC) or the Welsh one (TD)?

Only the Scottish one could vote....after getting sound advice from the Irish one.

[quinsforever]

SC will always be the real Bond for me

[Notch]

Interesting reading

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/sep/17/how-big-could-the-gap-between-yes-and-no-be?CMP=twt_gu

Murrayfield, the Scottish home of rugby, would roughly be able to fit the 68,000-odd voters deciding the referendum if it comes down to a close 51% for one side and 49% for the other. That is if we assume a turnout of 80% - or roughly 3.42m - of registered voters for the referendum tomorrow.

Will it be that eye-wateringly close?

[SecretFly]

Shut it Quins!!!  

I always thought so too...but Danny is the man I'm afraid.  Was cautious about him in the beginning before I saw him (didn't really know him before Bond).  But that inner anger; that silky, deep, dangerous voice, those penetrating eyes, the genuine sweat and dirt firghts his character gets involved in, and the urbane class of his suits and ties.....

he has it all......................... EXCEPT! a few worthy bloody scripts, better bloody music and some Sixties romantic location imagery class!!!

Craig (and that lethally angry character) in the earliest 60s movies would have been my ideal.

[quinsforever]

you just like seeing him in his budgie smugglers

[fa0019]

Shut it Quins!!!  

I always thought so too...but Danny is the man I'm afraid.  Was cautious about him in the beginning before I saw him (didn't really know him before Bond).  But that inner anger; that silky, deep, dangerous voice, those penetrating eyes, the genuine sweat and dirt firghts his character gets involved in, and the urbane class of his suits and ties.....

he has it all......................... EXCEPT! a few worthy bloody scripts, better bloody music and some Sixties romantic location imagery class!!!

Craig (and that lethally angry character) in the earliest 60s movies would have been my ideal.

and he's dead handsome to boot right fly

[GLove39]

What’s worrying is that the 'YES' campaigners on the street have resorted to a 1930s German style of intimidation against anyone who says No or displays No banners

Scotland please vote with caution and vote with you heads!

Someone's been reading the Daily Mail..?

Yes there's sadly been ugly isolated incidents, which the cameras and journalists tend to gravitate towards and magnify*, but on the whole the debate here has been passionate but civilized.

*or not if the victim is pro yes...
For some reason none of these stories received the widespread coverage and condemnation that a lone cretin egging Jim Murphy or Miliband being jostled received.
A PRO-INDEPENDENCE campaigner has been assaulted on Edinburgh’s Royal Mile by a woman who was outraged at his Yes placard
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/scottish-independence-campaigner-80-attacked-1-3077094

Two teenagers have been arrested after a man was assaulted outside a pro-independence concert
http://news.stv.tv/east-central/292144-teenagers-arrested-after-man-attacked-outside-usher-hall-yes-gig/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter supposedly his attackers shouted pro union slogans https://twitter.com/GaryBhoyUTLR/status/511567766613422080

Anyway the police federation of Scotland summed things up quite nicely this morning...

It was inevitable that the closer we came to the 18th of September passions would increase but that does not justify the exaggerated rhetoric that is being deployed with increased frequency. Any neutral observer could be led to believe Scotland is on the verge of societal disintegration yet nothing could be further from the truth...

At this time it is more important than ever that individuals be they politicians, journalists or whoever should carefully consider their words, maintain level heads and act with respect. Respect is not demonstrated by suggesting a minority of mindless idiots are representative of anything. One of the many joys of this campaign has been how it has awakened political awareness across almost every single section of society. The success enjoyed by the many should not be sullied by the actions of the few.

[quinsforever]

notch, i saw one survey which reckoned on 93%+ turnout!

what if it only comes down to a few hundred votes? can you imagine how gutting that would be for the losers.

there are going to be some serious hangovers on friday north of hadrians wall!

[SecretFly]

..and of course he's dead handsome in them spray on shorts innit....

[Notch]

notch, i saw one survey which reckoned on 93%+ turnout!

what if it only comes down to a few hundred votes? can you imagine how gutting that would be for the losers.

there are going to be some serious hangovers on friday north of hadrians wall!

Democracy in action. Glorious, ugly, exciting and unpredictable.

[SecretFly]

YES vote win by one vote:

Salmond claims an absolute landslide and ships Sean Connery back into exile overnight in the hold of an oil tanker.

NO vote wins by one vote:

Working class voters who never voted before until Salmond encouraged them, chase Salmond out of Scotland; blaming him for being Westminster's secret double-agent spy in Scotland who was always going to have the casting vote in such a deadheat battle.

[quinsforever]

"democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the other forms of government"

[SecretFly]

Voting Instructions from the YES campaign to familiar University and big job voters:

If you want to vote NO then you're probably at the wrong voting centre. There are only two chances to say YES here. YES we want Independence or YES we want to end the Union.


Voting Instructions from the NO campaign to first time voters:

If you want to vote YES, you simply put an X beside NO.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

The Guardian, not known for a pro-Scottish stance had this :-

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/media-shafted-people-scotland-journalists

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