606v2 Rugby Fans Scottish Independence Thread

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

 v
Let me start this off, then. I have printed and read all literature which either side has published on this debate over the past 2 years (including the main policy papers from the SNP and from Better Together/UK Treasury and the Wee Blue Book).
 
If I had the chance, I would think hard about it, but ultimately I think that I would vote 'no'.
 
It seems to me, with my pea brain, that:
 
1. As a professional economist, Alex Salmond has had his entire political and professional life to make a waterproof financial case for an independent Scotland. Provided that there isn't something I've missed, I cannot see that he has done so. How can we still be fishing for answers to very fundemental questions so close to the actual voting date? Surely if it was the case that Scotland had a solid long term financial future, there would be a far greater volume of published consensus? If the financial case for independence cannot be clearly and verifiably made (without optimistic financial projects which strain credulity), then this is where this debate begins and ends for me. What do we tell our kids otherwise?
 
2. I entirely understand and appreciate that stepping into the unknown cannot in itself be a reason to say 'no'. You cannot have opportunity without risk. However, is anyone else disappointed with the quality of verifiable information that has been made available to us throughout this entire debate? Whilst I don't expect all answers to all questions, surely it is better to err on the side of caution until such time as policy can be firmly established.
 
If this was a trial, the verdict would be 'not proven'.
 
What I don't believe is if Scotland votes no, the chance to do so again would be lost forever. I think that we may see another vote on this topic within a generation (20 years) if a 'no' vote does not have a clear majority amongst Scottish people. I would be happy with that.
 
Discuss. For the love of feck, please be nice.

[SecretFly]

Ireland sees  50,000 youngsters leaving every year it has a continuous brain drain of the best and brightest. That is Scotland's future.

ONLY since our last hiccup.............which was designed, stoked and rubber stamped by the EU (England knows those guys, don't they - the guys they themselves, many of them, are trying to break free from in a very Scottish way.)  
Before the Fall though - in Ireland only a short few years ago - we had immigration of the nature that was beginning to stifle us and we all know the Celtic tiger bit - which was real and everyone wanted a slice of it.  And there are already signs that we are emerging from our most recent recession, having been poster boys for how to strategically manage yourself out of a deep deep recession.  

So no - the gloom is lifting here.  And even in the gloom of depression, we all still knew we were Irish.  It's not all about accounts, mortgages, loans and oil companies talking tough.  It's about realising who you are - simply.

But we'll see.  However the vote goes it will be the choice of the Scottish people and good luck to them however they vote.

[fa0019]

LD, "As long as" isn't Scottish or at least I didn't think you were???

As Long As is a Scot, and a very passionate one at that.

I suppose my feelings on it are the Indy oppertunity is 30 years too late or 10 years too soon.

30 Years too late because 30 years ago we could have set up an oil fund like Norway and been a true powerhouse in these Islands with a fantastic working relationship with the rUK.

10 years too soon because we are making too many demands of the rUK to .do it this time around


Arguments for paitence :

[A] We can strengthen our position under devomax.

[B] we could buy back RBS/HBOS or even both back from UK taxpayers for iScotland to use as a central bank

[C] Save up enough Oil and other Assets through canny investment and sensible spending to have enough assets to float our own currency and use either RBS or HBOS as a central bank thus removeing the need the need to share the £ with the rUK. This will help in our application to join the EU

[D] rUK can be in a position to wean themselves off the need to support themselves on the oil revenues and thus better prepare themselves for seperation.

Simple truth is despite what the YES campaign say Scotland isn't ready for idnependence at the moment. We won't be in any kind of position to make demands of the rUK and IMO we should wait untill we are.

The gaps between what Mr Salmond is promising and what he'll actually be able to deliver is absolutely mind boggling. Just 2 without free trade with the EU will see us in a depression the likes of which many in Scotland will never have seen.

my mistake... As long as... I apologise.

I hate this whole, well I'm ok jack ideology. Should we break up the entire world dependent on rich and poor areas? I'm now ok so f*** the rest of you? As a british citizen I know Wales is poor... yet I don't want to cut them off just because of it (well it depends on how bad they beat us but at the moment but given we've been taking some major beatings recently its testimony that we're not that bitter).

To be honest, this is the last time Scotland can vote on independence. After the oil has gone there won't be anyone to rely on but others. Then again, if it matter to enough people and they don't mind the consequences then so be it....

but don't try and kid yourself it won't hurt, either in the short term or forever more.

[fa0019]

Ireland sees  50,000 youngsters leaving every year it has a continuous brain drain of the best and brightest. That is Scotland's future.

ONLY since our last hiccup.............which was designed, stoked and rubber stamped by the EU (England knows those guys, don't they - the guys they themselves, many of them, are trying to break free from in a very Scottish way.)  
Before the Fall though - in Ireland only a short few years ago - we had immigration of the nature that was beginning to stifle us and we all know the Celtic tiger bit - which was real and everyone wanted a slice of it.  And there are already signs that we are emerging from our most recent recession, having been poster boys for how to strategically manage yourself out of a deep deep recession.  

So no - the gloom is lifting here.  And even in the gloom of depression, we all still knew we were Irish.  It's not all about accounts, mortgages, loans and oil companies talking tough.  It's about realising who you are - simply.

But we'll see.  However the vote goes it will be the choice of the Scottish people and good luck to them however they vote.

Ah the old celtic tiger years... you mean the one built on debt and land speculation???

Not saying its all gloom in Ireland fly, just that you are losing your best and brightest and yes, that will happen to Scotland too. That is never a good thing.

[LordDowlais]

I just hope, that the Scottish public before they vote, think of their children and their children's, children, they are giving sixteen year old's a vote, FFS, what in the name of God does a sixteen year old in this day and age know about anything ? Sixteen is not what it was twenty years ago, feck I had a full time job and was thinking of moving out from my parents at that age, now sixteen year olds are still having pocket money and cars bought for them, how many sixteen year olds are actually in working in the UK at the moment ? They know nothing of the struggle to bring up a family, and going without so that your kid can have the next best thing out so that they do not feel left out at school, I can guarantee that nearly all of sixteens will vote yes, then when they are thirty years old with no jobs still living off Mam and dad I hope they are proud to be independent.

[fa0019]

I just hope, that the Scottish public before they vote, think of their children and their children's, children, they are giving sixteen year old's a vote, FFS, what in the name of God does a sixteen year old in this day and age know about anything ? Sixteen is not what it was twenty years ago, feck I had a full time job and was thinking of moving out from my parents at that age, now sixteen year olds are still having pocket money and cars bought for them, how many sixteen year olds are actually in working in the UK at the moment ? They know nothing of the struggle to bring up a family, and going without so that your kid can have the next best thing out so that they do not feel left out at school, I can guarantee that nearly all of sixteens will vote yes, then when they are thirty years old with no jobs still living off Mam and dad I hope they are proud to be independent.

I agree

I'm a pretty sensible chap, ticked all the t's, dotted all the i's. I drive a german car, its fuel efficient etc. I wouldn't have given myself a vote aged 16 looking back. Hell I wouldn't have given either myself or any of my mates a vote until we were 21.

Those who were objective at that age... beware those lot!!!

[quinsforever]

pretty sure i read somewhere that the 16 and 17 year olds are on average more inclined to vote NO based on recent polls. They are very concerned about the economics 20-40 years from now and have yet to be convinced by the SNP economic case.

pretty sure that the recent swing to YES was mostly from Labour voters won over by Salmond painting Darling and the rest of the NO campaigners as Tory-westminster-elite-lackeys.

i have faith that 16 and 17 year olds will have open minds and plenty of time on their hands and access to advice and research at their schools to come up with very sensible opinions on this issue. which lets be honest is going to affect them more than anyone else.

[quinsforever]

this is not just another election after all

[RuggerRadge2611]

I'm a no through and through, my previous comments should have made that abundently clear.

However I'm not going to hide behind the idea that I want an independent Scotland to be a socialist paradise. Far from it. The welfare system across the UK needs looked at.

I'm generalizing here but all of the council areas in Kirkcaldy are paqcked full with Sky Dishes. They cannae be that hard done to if they can afford Sky Telly! It's too easy to be on benefits in the UK. Start handing out food vouchers or insisting on 12 hours per week community service to get your dole money and you'll soon find out who wants to work and who doesn't.

Speaking from a point of view from someone who collected the dole for 2 months I have a unique perspective on benefits. I was made redundant from my job back in 2009 during the deepest trough of the recession. I walked along to the job centre to sign on (one of the most humiliating moments of my life).

My redundancy payout was negligible since the company's assets were all liquidated to pay off the debt and I sat through and told the truth and was offered a whopping £67 every 2 weeks (hardly enough to cover the Gas + Electric bills let alone the mortgage). Whilst some schemos in Kirkcaldy can claim nearly £200 per week with no intention of ever working again. I know this because I know some of them by name. There is no incentive for them to work because as soon as they do start working they will be worse off due to not getting housing benefit and their council tax paid for them.

Benefits in the UK need a massive shake up.

But I digress...

I'm voting no because the financial case written in the white paper is a farce. Coupled with the fact that Salmond is making rediculous demands of the westminster government and gambling that the rUK are just making threats to scare the people of Scotland. Gordon Brown said it best, you can ignore some of the comments some of the time but you cannot ignore all of the comments all of the time.

Finally the "Team Scotland" comment was the single most insulting comment I have heard in the entire debate. To suggest those voting no are not patriotic sums up exactly what kind of man our esteemed First Minister is

[Notch]

Actually it seems many of the 16 and 17 year olds are going to vote no. A lot of schools have had mock referendums and it's come out as a No. I think the SNP were clearly hoping that they would idealistically vote YES en masse but it looks like it might not pan out that way at all.

I think people underestimate teenagers some times. Of course they are immature and of course they lack life experience but they are definitely lots of sixteen year olds with a lot of sense and lots of sixty year olds with none. I wouldn't be too convinced that all of those concerns you've listed about not knowing anything about the real world don't equally apply to many 18, 19 and 20 year olds whom we don't question getting the vote.

[LordDowlais]

I just hope, that the Scottish public before they vote, think of their children and their children's, children, they are giving sixteen year old's a vote, FFS, what in the name of God does a sixteen year old in this day and age know about anything ? Sixteen is not what it was twenty years ago, feck I had a full time job and was thinking of moving out from my parents at that age, now sixteen year olds are still having pocket money and cars bought for them, how many sixteen year olds are actually in working in the UK at the moment ? They know nothing of the struggle to bring up a family, and going without so that your kid can have the next best thing out so that they do not feel left out at school, I can guarantee that nearly all of sixteens will vote yes, then when they are thirty years old with no jobs still living off Mam and dad I hope they are proud to be independent.

I agree

I'm a pretty sensible chap, ticked all the t's, dotted all the i's. I drive a german car, its fuel efficient etc. I wouldn't have given myself a vote aged 16 looking back. Hell I wouldn't have given either myself or any of my mates a vote until we were 21.
Those who were objective at that age... beware those lot!!!

I am not alone, you sound a lot like me, I have a BMW and it absolutley sups the diesel, I plan everything before I do it, unlike my wife and tennage daughter, I hope my youngest daughter ends up like me, but she is just as spoilt, but for all my planning, I never get what I want anyway.

[fa0019]

I just hope, that the Scottish public before they vote, think of their children and their children's, children, they are giving sixteen year old's a vote, FFS, what in the name of God does a sixteen year old in this day and age know about anything ? Sixteen is not what it was twenty years ago, feck I had a full time job and was thinking of moving out from my parents at that age, now sixteen year olds are still having pocket money and cars bought for them, how many sixteen year olds are actually in working in the UK at the moment ? They know nothing of the struggle to bring up a family, and going without so that your kid can have the next best thing out so that they do not feel left out at school, I can guarantee that nearly all of sixteens will vote yes, then when they are thirty years old with no jobs still living off Mam and dad I hope they are proud to be independent.

I agree

I'm a pretty sensible chap, ticked all the t's, dotted all the i's. I drive a german car, its fuel efficient etc. I wouldn't have given myself a vote aged 16 looking back. Hell I wouldn't have given either myself or any of my mates a vote until we were 21.
Those who were objective at that age... beware those lot!!!

 I am not alone, you sound a lot like me, I have a BMW and it absolutley sups the diesel, I plan everything before I do it, unlike my wife and tennage daughter, I hope my youngest daughter ends up like me, but she is just as spoilt, but for all my planning, I never get what I want anyway.

Look into sending your kid to Paarl Gym in SA. That will beat reistance out of 99% of kids (unfortunately will reinforce that 1% but I'd take my chances). Those kids wear blazers throughout the summer, top button the lot.... and its 45C in Paarl in summer.

[LordDowlais]

I'm a no through and through, my previous comments should have made that abundently clear.

However I'm not going to hide behind the idea that I want an independent Scotland to be a socialist paradise. Far from it. The welfare system across the UK needs looked at.

I'm generalizing here but all of the council areas in Kirkcaldy are paqcked full with Sky Dishes. They cannae be that hard done to if they can afford Sky Telly! It's too easy to be on benefits in the UK. Start handing out food vouchers or insisting on 12 hours per week community service to get your dole money and you'll soon find out who wants to work and who doesn't.

Speaking from a point of view from someone who collected the dole for 2 months I have a unique perspective on benefits. I was made redundant from my job back in 2009 during the deepest trough of the recession. I walked along to the job centre to sign on (one of the most humiliating moments of my life).

My redundancy payout was negligible since the company's assets were all liquidated to pay off the debt and I sat through and told the truth and was offered a whopping £67 every 2 weeks (hardly enough to cover the Gas + Electric bills let alone the mortgage). Whilst some schemos in Kirkcaldy can claim nearly £200 per week with no intention of ever working again. I know this because I know some of them by name. There is no incentive for them to work because as soon as they do start working they will be worse off due to not getting housing benefit and their council tax paid for them.

Benefits in the UK need a massive shake up.

But I digress...

I'm voting no because the financial case written in the white paper is a farce. Coupled with the fact that Salmond is making rediculous demands of the westminster government and gambling that the rUK are just making threats to scare the people of Scotland. Gordon Brown said it best, you can ignore some of the comments some of the time but you cannot ignore all of the comments all of the time.

Finally the "Team Scotland" comment was the single most insulting comment I have heard in the entire debate. To suggest those voting no are not patriotic sums up exactly what kind of man our esteemed First Minister is

I 100% agree with your benefits issues, I live in the South Wales valley's the benefit's capital of the UK, most of them have nice and shiny mobility cars, and get allowances for caring, and the what not, the best thing this government has done is this bedroom thingy, I had a massive blowout with a guy who goes to my local club, he has not worked for God knows how many years, he has money coming in from every benefit you can think of, and he is in the club more than I am, anyway, he was sat there one Saturday afternoon going on and on about how the council his moving him out of his three bedroom house and putting him and his wife in a one bedroom bungalow, in the same area, his argument was that he has lived in his house for thirty years and should not be made to move, but when I asked him how much rent he pays, he told me nothing, he has it all payed for him as he was on benefits, I nearly hit the roof, I called him all the lazy so and so's under the sun, and asked him why he should keep that house, which he does not own, and why another family willing to pay their rent, or a single mother finding it hard should have to stay on a waiting list for a house that he did not need as all his children had grown up and moved away, all he came back with was, I was talking balls, funny thing is,, he does not pipe up anymore, and he loves his new bungalow, well so he says.

[RuggerRadge2611]

I suppose when you cut out all of the personal stuff and splitting hairs about currency and negotiating with westminster, the bit that bothers me the most is that in the event of a yes vote 300 years from now,

William Wallace
Robert the Bruce
and Alex Salmond

will be getting mentioned in the same breath

[LordDowlais]

I just hope, that the Scottish public before they vote, think of their children and their children's, children, they are giving sixteen year old's a vote, FFS, what in the name of God does a sixteen year old in this day and age know about anything ? Sixteen is not what it was twenty years ago, feck I had a full time job and was thinking of moving out from my parents at that age, now sixteen year olds are still having pocket money and cars bought for them, how many sixteen year olds are actually in working in the UK at the moment ? They know nothing of the struggle to bring up a family, and going without so that your kid can have the next best thing out so that they do not feel left out at school, I can guarantee that nearly all of sixteens will vote yes, then when they are thirty years old with no jobs still living off Mam and dad I hope they are proud to be independent.

I agree

I'm a pretty sensible chap, ticked all the t's, dotted all the i's. I drive a german car, its fuel efficient etc. I wouldn't have given myself a vote aged 16 looking back. Hell I wouldn't have given either myself or any of my mates a vote until we were 21.
Those who were objective at that age... beware those lot!!!

 I am not alone, you sound a lot like me, I have a BMW and it absolutley sups the diesel, I plan everything before I do it, unlike my wife and tennage daughter, I hope my youngest daughter ends up like me, but she is just as spoilt, but for all my planning, I never get what I want anyway.

Look into sending your kid to Paarl Gym in SA. That will beat reistance out of 99% of kids (unfortunately will reinforce that 1% but I'd take my chances). Those kids wear blazers throughout the summer, top button the lot.... and its 45C in Paarl in summer.

Sounds like a plan.

But unless they have internet, sky, make-up, all nice food and drink on tap, brand new clothes when needed, and get tenners as if they are made in my pocket ready for when she needs to just pop out to costa coffe with her freinds, then I cannot see her going for it.

[fa0019]

Welfare is always a difficult one... some deserve, some don't.

I didn't grow up on benefits nor have ever been on any, touch wood. However that doesn't mean our lives were easy. Half my mates were council, half not and we lived in an area of mixed housing.
Yes, whilst the kids from the richer families tended to do better at school, my mates with workless parents didn't seem to go without and its not like we were privately tutored or bought those expensive study guides which gave us the edge. What we were given was the discipline of study which our parents placed on us that they had gone through themselves.
They all had the latest bikes, gear, trainers and a few quid in their pockets for snacks... as well as their annual trip to Spain. Not exaggeration, true life. It may have changed now but I doubt it and I'm sure there are genuine cases of mishandling and hardship.

I imagine those types will be voting yes, yes for no bedroom tax as Alex will gift them all 1MM barrels of oil each, a fancy home, a new set of golf clubs and a season ticket renewed annually for their favourite football team according to the door to door nats.

[fa0019]

I just hope, that the Scottish public before they vote, think of their children and their children's, children, they are giving sixteen year old's a vote, FFS, what in the name of God does a sixteen year old in this day and age know about anything ? Sixteen is not what it was twenty years ago, feck I had a full time job and was thinking of moving out from my parents at that age, now sixteen year olds are still having pocket money and cars bought for them, how many sixteen year olds are actually in working in the UK at the moment ? They know nothing of the struggle to bring up a family, and going without so that your kid can have the next best thing out so that they do not feel left out at school, I can guarantee that nearly all of sixteens will vote yes, then when they are thirty years old with no jobs still living off Mam and dad I hope they are proud to be independent.

I agree

I'm a pretty sensible chap, ticked all the t's, dotted all the i's. I drive a german car, its fuel efficient etc. I wouldn't have given myself a vote aged 16 looking back. Hell I wouldn't have given either myself or any of my mates a vote until we were 21.
Those who were objective at that age... beware those lot!!!

 I am not alone, you sound a lot like me, I have a BMW and it absolutley sups the diesel, I plan everything before I do it, unlike my wife and tennage daughter, I hope my youngest daughter ends up like me, but she is just as spoilt, but for all my planning, I never get what I want anyway.

Look into sending your kid to Paarl Gym in SA. That will beat reistance out of 99% of kids (unfortunately will reinforce that 1% but I'd take my chances). Those kids wear blazers throughout the summer, top button the lot.... and its 45C in Paarl in summer.

Sounds like a plan.

But unless they have internet, sky, make-up, all nice food and drink on tap, brand new clothes when needed, and get tenners as if they are made in my pocket ready for when she needs to just pop out to costa coffe with her freinds, then I cannot see her going for it.

Take her there on holiday but don't let her see you didn't buy her a return ticket. She'll get over it... maybe she may bring back the next schalk burger to Wales too??? Am sure Gatland would appreciate.

[LordDowlais]

I suppose when you cut out all of the personal stuff and splitting hairs about currency and negotiating with westminster, the bit that bothers me the most is that in the event of a yes vote 300 years from now,

William Wallace
Robert the Bruce
and Alex Salmond

will be getting mentioned in the same breath

What about Rob Roy ?

[LordDowlais]

Actually it seems many of the 16 and 17 year olds are going to vote no. A lot of schools have had mock referendums and it's come out as a No. I think the SNP were clearly hoping that they would idealistically vote YES en masse but it looks like it might not pan out that way at all.

I think people underestimate teenagers some times. Of course they are immature and of course they lack life experience but they are definitely lots of sixteen year olds with a lot of sense and lots of sixty year olds with none. I wouldn't be too convinced that all of those concerns you've listed about not knowing anything about the real world don't equally apply to many 18, 19 and 20 year olds whom we don't question getting the vote.

Would you like to put your future in the hands of a teenager ?

[RuggerRadge2611]

I suppose when you cut out all of the personal stuff and splitting hairs about currency and negotiating with westminster, the bit that bothers me the most is that in the event of a yes vote 300 years from now,

William Wallace
Robert the Bruce
and Alex Salmond

will be getting mentioned in the same breath

What about Rob Roy ?

Rob Roy was not fighting for Scottish independence.

[Jimpy]

Actually it seems many of the 16 and 17 year olds are going to vote no. A lot of schools have had mock referendums and it's come out as a No. I think the SNP were clearly hoping that they would idealistically vote YES en masse but it looks like it might not pan out that way at all.

I think people underestimate teenagers some times. Of course they are immature and of course they lack life experience but they are definitely lots of sixteen year olds with a lot of sense and lots of sixty year olds with none. I wouldn't be too convinced that all of those concerns you've listed about not knowing anything about the real world don't equally apply to many 18, 19 and 20 year olds whom we don't question getting the vote.

Would you like to put your future in the hands of a teenager ?

Preferable to the analogy that voting for Salmond would be like sticking your tadger in the hands of a maniac holding a pair of scissors.

[LordDowlais]

I suppose when you cut out all of the personal stuff and splitting hairs about currency and negotiating with westminster, the bit that bothers me the most is that in the event of a yes vote 300 years from now,

William Wallace
Robert the Bruce
and Alex Salmond

will be getting mentioned in the same breath

What about Rob Roy ?

Rob Roy was not fighting for Scottish independence.

Yes I know, but he was fighting the pompous aristocracy which could be looked on as the MP's from Westminster that all the YES voters are against.

[RuggerRadge2611]

I suppose when you cut out all of the personal stuff and splitting hairs about currency and negotiating with westminster, the bit that bothers me the most is that in the event of a yes vote 300 years from now,

William Wallace
Robert the Bruce
and Alex Salmond

will be getting mentioned in the same breath

What about Rob Roy ?

Rob Roy was not fighting for Scottish independence.

Yes I know, but he was fighting the pompous aristocracy which could be looked on as the MP's from Westminster that all the YES voters are against.

Rob Roy was of course fighting the pompous aristocracy but it also had it's roots in the Stuart claim for the throne of the UK. More a sectarian thing than a Scotland-England thing.

It made me laugh when Prescott was called a red coat and the Duke of Cumberland by Yes Campaigners who clearly had no idea what it meant.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

it's little things, I now it is petty, but what TV stations will they have ?

 The same as now

They will not be allowed to have the BBC, would they ?

 Yes, they would, altho would have to pay for it, as for example, rte in Ireland currently does

Who is going to carry on coughing up for the cost of the commonwealth games ?

Scotland already competes separately to England in the Commonwealth Games (as does Wales) and has to find its own budget for that already - so no change there

Who is going to pay for all their infrastructure, railways, road maintenance, public buses, schools, NHS ?

Scotland sends more tax revenue south of the border than it gets spending power back, so there would in fact be more to go around

Also, and this should be the clincher, the X-Factor would no longer be going to the Scottish capital anymore.

Hmm, no comment

We are all sill paying for the commonwealth games with British Tax payers money, and are you sure you send more money in tax than you get back, I am going to have to try and check that, you just sound like the rest of the YES campaigners saying things without really answering them, also how are you going to pay to keep watching the BBC programmes ? There other things to pay for as well, who is going to pay all your new politicians ? Who is going to pay for all your local councils ? Who is going to fund your armies, and defence e.c.t, the mind just boggles, but hey ho, all the best to you

I'll happily direct you to some pages that will provide the figures for you: http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/10-key-economic-facts-that-prove-scotland-will-be-a-wealthy-independent-nation/ - the majority of figures are drawn from GERS accounts, plus with Scotland having a geographical share of oil & gas revenues. It's a shame tht you've only just joined in the discussion - there have been plenty of facts shared in the previous 9 pages - it might be worth starting from the beginning Re the BBC, well the share of Scotland's tax revenues that is currently going towards the BBC will obviously not in the futures, so I imagine that it will be used to fund a Scottish public broadcaster, with some spare for paying for BBC programming. I would imagine that the new politicians will be paid out of all the money saved from not having to pay for the ones that we send to Westminster, or did you imagine that we got them for free?! In fact, we won't need a double layer of politicians at all, so that would be a direct saving. Sorry, i can't be bothered to rehash the defence stuff again, but if you read back just a couple of pages you'll get the gist - commensurate share of British armed forces directed towards conventional military in iScotland with savings from not having Trident

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

LD, "As long as" isn't Scottish or at least I didn't think you were???

As Long As is a Scot, and a very passionate one at that.

I suppose my feelings on it are the Indy oppertunity is 30 years too late or 10 years too soon.

30 Years too late because 30 years ago we could have set up an oil fund like Norway and been a true powerhouse in these Islands with a fantastic working relationship with the rUK.

10 years too soon because we are making too many demands of the rUK to .do it this time around


Arguments for paitence :

[A] We can strengthen our position under devomax.

[B] we could buy back RBS/HBOS or even both back from UK taxpayers for iScotland to use as a central bank

[C] Save up enough Oil and other Assets through canny investment and sensible spending to have enough assets to float our own currency and use either RBS or HBOS as a central bank thus removeing the need the need to share the £ with the rUK. This will help in our application to join the EU

[D] rUK can be in a position to wean themselves off the need to support themselves on the oil revenues and thus better prepare themselves for seperation.

Simple truth is despite what the YES campaign say Scotland isn't ready for idnependence at the moment. We won't be in any kind of position to make demands of the rUK and IMO we should wait untill we are.

The gaps between what Mr Salmond is promising and what he'll actually be able to deliver is absolutely mind boggling. Just 2 without free trade with the EU will see us in a depression the likes of which many in Scotland will never have seen.

my mistake... As long as... I apologise.

.

fa, none required

[LordDowlais]

it's little things, I now it is petty, but what TV stations will they have ?

 The same as now

They will not be allowed to have the BBC, would they ?

 Yes, they would, altho would have to pay for it, as for example, rte in Ireland currently does

Who is going to carry on coughing up for the cost of the commonwealth games ?

Scotland already competes separately to England in the Commonwealth Games (as does Wales) and has to find its own budget for that already - so no change there

Who is going to pay for all their infrastructure, railways, road maintenance, public buses, schools, NHS ?

Scotland sends more tax revenue south of the border than it gets spending power back, so there would in fact be more to go around

Also, and this should be the clincher, the X-Factor would no longer be going to the Scottish capital anymore.

Hmm, no comment

We are all sill paying for the commonwealth games with British Tax payers money, and are you sure you send more money in tax than you get back, I am going to have to try and check that, you just sound like the rest of the YES campaigners saying things without really answering them, also how are you going to pay to keep watching the BBC programmes ? There other things to pay for as well, who is going to pay all your new politicians ? Who is going to pay for all your local councils ? Who is going to fund your armies, and defence e.c.t, the mind just boggles, but hey ho, all the best to you

I'll happily direct you to some pages that will provide the figures for you: http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/10-key-economic-facts-that-prove-scotland-will-be-a-wealthy-independent-nation/ - the majority of figures are drawn from GERS accounts, plus with Scotland having a geographical share of oil & gas revenues.  It's a shame tht you've only just joined in the discussion - there have been plenty of facts shared in the previous 9 pages - it might be worth starting from the beginning  Re the BBC, well the share of Scotland's tax revenues that is currently going towards the BBC will obviously not in the futures, so I imagine that it will be used to fund a Scottish public broadcaster, with some spare for paying for BBC programming.  I would imagine that the new politicians will be paid out of all the money saved from not having to pay for the ones that we send to Westminster, or did you imagine that we got them for free?!  In fact, we won't need a double layer of politicians at all, so that would be a direct saving.  Sorry, i can't be bothered to rehash the defence stuff again, but if you read back just a couple of pages you'll get the gist - commensurate share of British armed forces directed towards conventional military in iScotland with savings from not having Trident

So Scotland would still be part of the British armed forces ?

[LordDowlais]

Ok I read your link, and you do realise all the points on that link are correct, WHILST YOU ARE STILL PART OF THE UK, don't you, it's all good saying these things, but those points are not true inspite of the rest of the UK, they are true beciase of the rest of the UK. There is nothing in that link to show how you would cope if it all went jubblies up.

[LordDowlais]

P.S, I know it's all just hot air, but heres a link that can take you to a few websites that totally blows you link out of the water:-

https://www.google.de/search?q=dangers+for+scotland+going+independent&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&prmd=ivns&source=univ&tbm=nws&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=6OQWVNLQGYnAPKmUgMAD&ved=0CBYQqAI

I know it is all who and what you want to believe, so all the best to Scotland, if you go for YES, then I hope it all works out for you.

[Jimpy]

it's little things, I now it is petty, but what TV stations will they have ?

 The same as now

They will not be allowed to have the BBC, would they ?

 Yes, they would, altho would have to pay for it, as for example, rte in Ireland currently does

Who is going to carry on coughing up for the cost of the commonwealth games ?

Scotland already competes separately to England in the Commonwealth Games (as does Wales) and has to find its own budget for that already - so no change there

Who is going to pay for all their infrastructure, railways, road maintenance, public buses, schools, NHS ?

Scotland sends more tax revenue south of the border than it gets spending power back, so there would in fact be more to go around

Also, and this should be the clincher, the X-Factor would no longer be going to the Scottish capital anymore.

Hmm, no comment

We are all sill paying for the commonwealth games with British Tax payers money, and are you sure you send more money in tax than you get back, I am going to have to try and check that, you just sound like the rest of the YES campaigners saying things without really answering them, also how are you going to pay to keep watching the BBC programmes ? There other things to pay for as well, who is going to pay all your new politicians ? Who is going to pay for all your local councils ? Who is going to fund your armies, and defence e.c.t, the mind just boggles, but hey ho, all the best to you

I'll happily direct you to some pages that will provide the figures for you: http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/10-key-economic-facts-that-prove-scotland-will-be-a-wealthy-independent-nation/ - the majority of figures are drawn from GERS accounts, plus with Scotland having a geographical share of oil & gas revenues.  It's a shame tht you've only just joined in the discussion - there have been plenty of facts shared in the previous 9 pages - it might be worth starting from the beginning  Re the BBC, well the share of Scotland's tax revenues that is currently going towards the BBC will obviously not in the futures, so I imagine that it will be used to fund a Scottish public broadcaster, with some spare for paying for BBC programming.  I would imagine that the new politicians will be paid out of all the money saved from not having to pay for the ones that we send to Westminster, or did you imagine that we got them for free?!  In fact, we won't need a double layer of politicians at all, so that would be a direct saving.  Sorry, i can't be bothered to rehash the defence stuff again, but if you read back just a couple of pages you'll get the gist - commensurate share of British armed forces directed towards conventional military in iScotland with savings from not having Trident

So Scotland would still be part of the British armed forces ?

This is pie in the sky as well. Toad face wants his 'fair share' of the Armed Forces which he says equates to 12 Typhoons, 2 x Type 23 Frigates and approxiamtely 9000 fighting men.

Yeah, righto mate, and he honestly thinks we're just going to give them away?

[RuggerRadge2611]

it's little things, I now it is petty, but what TV stations will they have ?

 The same as now

They will not be allowed to have the BBC, would they ?

 Yes, they would, altho would have to pay for it, as for example, rte in Ireland currently does

Who is going to carry on coughing up for the cost of the commonwealth games ?

Scotland already competes separately to England in the Commonwealth Games (as does Wales) and has to find its own budget for that already - so no change there

Who is going to pay for all their infrastructure, railways, road maintenance, public buses, schools, NHS ?

Scotland sends more tax revenue south of the border than it gets spending power back, so there would in fact be more to go around

Also, and this should be the clincher, the X-Factor would no longer be going to the Scottish capital anymore.

Hmm, no comment

We are all sill paying for the commonwealth games with British Tax payers money, and are you sure you send more money in tax than you get back, I am going to have to try and check that, you just sound like the rest of the YES campaigners saying things without really answering them, also how are you going to pay to keep watching the BBC programmes ? There other things to pay for as well, who is going to pay all your new politicians ? Who is going to pay for all your local councils ? Who is going to fund your armies, and defence e.c.t, the mind just boggles, but hey ho, all the best to you

I'll happily direct you to some pages that will provide the figures for you: http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/10-key-economic-facts-that-prove-scotland-will-be-a-wealthy-independent-nation/ - the majority of figures are drawn from GERS accounts, plus with Scotland having a geographical share of oil & gas revenues.  It's a shame tht you've only just joined in the discussion - there have been plenty of facts shared in the previous 9 pages - it might be worth starting from the beginning  Re the BBC, well the share of Scotland's tax revenues that is currently going towards the BBC will obviously not in the futures, so I imagine that it will be used to fund a Scottish public broadcaster, with some spare for paying for BBC programming.  I would imagine that the new politicians will be paid out of all the money saved from not having to pay for the ones that we send to Westminster, or did you imagine that we got them for free?!  In fact, we won't need a double layer of politicians at all, so that would be a direct saving.  Sorry, i can't be bothered to rehash the defence stuff again, but if you read back just a couple of pages you'll get the gist - commensurate share of British armed forces directed towards conventional military in iScotland with savings from not having Trident

So Scotland would still be part of the British armed forces ?

This is pie in the sky as well. Toad face wants his 'fair share' of the Armed Forces which he says equates to 12 Typhoons, 2 x Type 23 Frigates and approxiamtely 9000 fighting men.

Yeah, righto mate, and he honestly thinks we're just going to give them away?

It's a difficult one for either party to negotiate. Scottish taxes helped pay what he's asking for so it has to be assumed we are entitled to something.

What is funny is if we don't get into the EU how such a small Navy will be capable of patrolling such a huge coastline and ensure no illegal fishing takes plaice.

^ see what I did there

[Notch]

Actually it seems many of the 16 and 17 year olds are going to vote no. A lot of schools have had mock referendums and it's come out as a No. I think the SNP were clearly hoping that they would idealistically vote YES en masse but it looks like it might not pan out that way at all.

I think people underestimate teenagers some times. Of course they are immature and of course they lack life experience but they are definitely lots of sixteen year olds with a lot of sense and lots of sixty year olds with none. I wouldn't be too convinced that all of those concerns you've listed about not knowing anything about the real world don't equally apply to many 18, 19 and 20 year olds whom we don't question getting the vote.

Would you like to put your future in the hands of a teenager ?

Preferable to the analogy that voting for Salmond would be like sticking your tadger in the hands of a maniac holding a pair of scissors.

Depends entirely on the teenager. Believe me, there's plenty of people of all ages I wouldn't like to put my future in the hands of. Some of them are teenagers. Others are running political parties. There's a good few teenagers out there I'd trust a hell of a lot more than Alex Salmond or David Cameron.

[LordDowlais]

it's little things, I now it is petty, but what TV stations will they have ?

 The same as now

They will not be allowed to have the BBC, would they ?

 Yes, they would, altho would have to pay for it, as for example, rte in Ireland currently does

Who is going to carry on coughing up for the cost of the commonwealth games ?

Scotland already competes separately to England in the Commonwealth Games (as does Wales) and has to find its own budget for that already - so no change there

Who is going to pay for all their infrastructure, railways, road maintenance, public buses, schools, NHS ?

Scotland sends more tax revenue south of the border than it gets spending power back, so there would in fact be more to go around

Also, and this should be the clincher, the X-Factor would no longer be going to the Scottish capital anymore.

Hmm, no comment

We are all sill paying for the commonwealth games with British Tax payers money, and are you sure you send more money in tax than you get back, I am going to have to try and check that, you just sound like the rest of the YES campaigners saying things without really answering them, also how are you going to pay to keep watching the BBC programmes ? There other things to pay for as well, who is going to pay all your new politicians ? Who is going to pay for all your local councils ? Who is going to fund your armies, and defence e.c.t, the mind just boggles, but hey ho, all the best to you

I'll happily direct you to some pages that will provide the figures for you: http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/10-key-economic-facts-that-prove-scotland-will-be-a-wealthy-independent-nation/ - the majority of figures are drawn from GERS accounts, plus with Scotland having a geographical share of oil & gas revenues.  It's a shame tht you've only just joined in the discussion - there have been plenty of facts shared in the previous 9 pages - it might be worth starting from the beginning  Re the BBC, well the share of Scotland's tax revenues that is currently going towards the BBC will obviously not in the futures, so I imagine that it will be used to fund a Scottish public broadcaster, with some spare for paying for BBC programming.  I would imagine that the new politicians will be paid out of all the money saved from not having to pay for the ones that we send to Westminster, or did you imagine that we got them for free?!  In fact, we won't need a double layer of politicians at all, so that would be a direct saving.  Sorry, i can't be bothered to rehash the defence stuff again, but if you read back just a couple of pages you'll get the gist - commensurate share of British armed forces directed towards conventional military in iScotland with savings from not having Trident

So Scotland would still be part of the British armed forces ?

This is pie in the sky as well. Toad face wants his 'fair share' of the Armed Forces which he says equates to 12 Typhoons, 2 x Type 23 Frigates and approxiamtely 9000 fighting men.

Yeah, righto mate, and he honestly thinks we're just going to give them away?

It's a difficult one for either party to negotiate. Scottish taxes helped pay what he's asking for so it has to be assumed we are entitled to something.

What is funny is if we don't get into the EU how such a small Navy will be capable of patrolling such a huge coastline and ensure no illegal fishing takes plaice.

^ see what I did there

What nationality would the 9000 fighting men and women be ?

[Jimpy]

Jockanese.

[LordDowlais]

Jockanese.

the reason why I am asking, is because if they are current English/Welsh/Northern Irish men and women along with some Scottish people to bump up that 9000 figure, who would they stand to pay taxes and the what not ?

[Jimpy]

Jockanese.

the reason why I am asking, is because if they are current English/Welsh/Northern Irish men and women along with some Scottish people to bump up that 9000 figure, who would they stand to pay taxes and the what not ?

The way things stand, the Scottish Armed forces would have to be Scottish staffed. I can't for example, go and join the French Army, i'd have to be a citizen to do that.

I'm not sure why they'd need 9000 people anyway, maybe 3000 regular and the rest reservists.

[fa0019]

quick question.

I have no idea but from a quick search the UK has about 100 typhoon fighters. Salmond wants 12 of these.

Without any inclination... are there a) an equivalent number of Scottish pilots available to fill them and b) will they leave the british army.

Its all good and well getting the machinery but if you don't have the technical ability via years of graft to learn them then they are useless. Then you have to ask, if so are you going to forcefully make your pilots join another nations army.

The same goes for the navy.

I know Scotland provides a far greater number of soldiers than its population proportion so I don't think that would be a problem but setting up their own logistics, military academies etc will be a huge cost.

Its just a question come any potential negotiations nothing to do with whether or not to vote yes or no.

[fa0019]

Jockanese.

the reason why I am asking, is because if they are current English/Welsh/Northern Irish men and women along with some Scottish people to bump up that 9000 figure, who would they stand to pay taxes and the what not ?

The way things stand, the Scottish Armed forces would have to be Scottish staffed. I can't for example, go and join the French Army, i'd have to be a citizen to do that.

I'm not sure why they'd need 9000 people anyway, maybe 3000 regular and the rest reservists.

Can always join the legion if you fancy trekking the north African desert?

[Notch]

If you are a British national permanently living in Scotland at the projected 'Independence Day' then you'll be entitled to Scottish citizenship regardless of what side of the border you are from originally or anything else. Doesn't matter if you're as English as morris dancing and cricket, still able to be a Scottish national if you live there. And you wouldn't have to give up your British citizenship either. So in your example any Welsh, N. Irish, English living in Scotland could easily become Scottish citizens... if they wanted.

[Jimpy]

quick question.

I have no idea but from a quick search the UK has about 100 typhoon fighters. Salmond wants 12 of these.

Without any inclination... are there a) an equivalent number of Scottish pilots available to fill them and b) will they leave the british army.

Its all good and well getting the machinery but if you don't have the technical ability via years of graft to learn them then they are useless. Then you have to ask, if so are you going to forcefully make your pilots join another nations army.

The same goes for the navy.

I know Scotland provides a far greater number of soldiers than its population proportion so I don't think that would be a problem but setting up their own logistics, military academies etc will be a huge cost.

Its just a question come any potential negotiations nothing to do with whether or not to vote yes or no.

That Charlie MacGregor could fly them all on a rotational basis.

The way i see it would be that serving Scottish members of the UK armed forces would be asked to take redundancy (we are trying to draw down after all) or serve out their terms if they were to stay. RUK would not then recruit any more Scottish personnel. Scottish personnel could then join their own Armed forces and the rest would be made up from regional recruitment. If i was David Cameron, i'd sack the lot and asset strip the SAcottish Regts of anything not nailed down.

[fa0019]

I also think there may be a problem of maintenance of the armed forces. Scottish people are over represented in the army, I doubt its because of a greater sense of duty to queen and country given the strong feelings of independence amongst the population.

Probably given that its more to see the world, get out of Scotland, get out of relative poverty, become a man and see some action.

I doubt they will get that being part of a defence force similar to Ireland. I don't think manning a barbed fence of a refugee camp will cater for lads of the above desires. Probably see a lot of young scots join the UK army... more so than the notable numbers of Rep. of Ireland lads going to NI to join the UK army.

[LordDowlais]

If you are a British national permanently living in Scotland at the projected 'Independence Day' then you'll be entitled to Scottish citizenship regardless of what side of the border you are from originally or anything else. Doesn't matter if you're as English as morris dancing and cricket, still able to be a Scottish national if you live there. And you wouldn't have to give up your British citizenship either. So in your example any Welsh, N. Irish, English living in Scotland could easily become Scottish citizens... if they wanted.

What about the otherway around ? My next door neighbour is Scottish, his wife isn't, she's Welsh, and I know he is prying for a NO vote, although he does not get a vote as he lives in Wales, does he get automatic dual citizenship ?

[fa0019]

quick question.

I have no idea but from a quick search the UK has about 100 typhoon fighters. Salmond wants 12 of these.

Without any inclination... are there a) an equivalent number of Scottish pilots available to fill them and b) will they leave the british army.

Its all good and well getting the machinery but if you don't have the technical ability via years of graft to learn them then they are useless. Then you have to ask, if so are you going to forcefully make your pilots join another nations army.

The same goes for the navy.

I know Scotland provides a far greater number of soldiers than its population proportion so I don't think that would be a problem but setting up their own logistics, military academies etc will be a huge cost.

Its just a question come any potential negotiations nothing to do with whether or not to vote yes or no.

That Charlie MacGregor could fly them all on a rotational basis.

The way i see it would be that serving Scottish members of the UK armed forces would be asked to take redundancy (we are trying to draw down after all) or serve out their terms if they were to stay. RUK would not then recruit any more Scottish personnel. Scottish personnel could then join their own Armed forces and the rest would be made up from regional recruitment. If i was David Cameron, i'd sack the lot and asset strip the SAcottish Regts of anything not nailed down.

We accept people from other nationalities into the british army. I doubt we would put a blanket ban of lads wanting to join the british army.

[fa0019]

If you are a British national permanently living in Scotland at the projected 'Independence Day' then you'll be entitled to Scottish citizenship regardless of what side of the border you are from originally or anything else. Doesn't matter if you're as English as morris dancing and cricket, still able to be a Scottish national if you live there. And you wouldn't have to give up your British citizenship either. So in your example any Welsh, N. Irish, English living in Scotland could easily become Scottish citizens... if they wanted.

Funny example but I obviously don't condone the behaviour of the following example...

When I was at uni the rugby club (I wasn't a member) all in unison decided to join the LGBT club. They were happy for the extra subs and as they saw people sign up individual it didn't dawn at them at the time at who they were.

Come the AGM 6 months later all the rugby players of a sudden all turned up and placed a motion to disband the club. As they numbered more than the active members the vote was approved.

Have to take my hat off to them, it was a genius piece of work (didn't go through as union got involved but still it was their democratic right).

[Jimpy]

quick question.

I have no idea but from a quick search the UK has about 100 typhoon fighters. Salmond wants 12 of these.

Without any inclination... are there a) an equivalent number of Scottish pilots available to fill them and b) will they leave the british army.

Its all good and well getting the machinery but if you don't have the technical ability via years of graft to learn them then they are useless. Then you have to ask, if so are you going to forcefully make your pilots join another nations army.

The same goes for the navy.

I know Scotland provides a far greater number of soldiers than its population proportion so I don't think that would be a problem but setting up their own logistics, military academies etc will be a huge cost.

Its just a question come any potential negotiations nothing to do with whether or not to vote yes or no.

That Charlie MacGregor could fly them all on a rotational basis.

The way i see it would be that serving Scottish members of the UK armed forces would be asked to take redundancy (we are trying to draw down after all) or serve out their terms if they were to stay. RUK would not then recruit any more Scottish personnel. Scottish personnel could then join their own Armed forces and the rest would be made up from regional recruitment. If i was David Cameron, i'd sack the lot and asset strip the SAcottish Regts of anything not nailed down.

We accept people from other nationalities into the british army. I doubt we would put a blanket ban of lads wanting to join the british army.

There's the odd South African, and even Aussie, but other than that, the British Armed Forces are British...

[LordDowlais]

quick question.

I have no idea but from a quick search the UK has about 100 typhoon fighters. Salmond wants 12 of these.

Without any inclination... are there a) an equivalent number of Scottish pilots available to fill them and b) will they leave the british army.

Its all good and well getting the machinery but if you don't have the technical ability via years of graft to learn them then they are useless. Then you have to ask, if so are you going to forcefully make your pilots join another nations army.

The same goes for the navy.

I know Scotland provides a far greater number of soldiers than its population proportion so I don't think that would be a problem but setting up their own logistics, military academies etc will be a huge cost.

Its just a question come any potential negotiations nothing to do with whether or not to vote yes or no.

That Charlie MacGregor could fly them all on a rotational basis.

The way i see it would be that serving Scottish members of the UK armed forces would be asked to take redundancy (we are trying to draw down after all) or serve out their terms if they were to stay. RUK would not then recruit any more Scottish personnel. Scottish personnel could then join their own Armed forces and the rest would be made up from regional recruitment. If i was David Cameron, i'd sack the lot and asset strip the SAcottish Regts of anything not nailed down.

We accept people from other nationalities into the british army. I doubt we would put a blanket ban of lads wanting to join the british army.

There's the odd South African, and even Aussie, but other than that, the British Armed Forces are British...

What about the Gurkha's ?

[fa0019]

quick question.

I have no idea but from a quick search the UK has about 100 typhoon fighters. Salmond wants 12 of these.

Without any inclination... are there a) an equivalent number of Scottish pilots available to fill them and b) will they leave the british army.

Its all good and well getting the machinery but if you don't have the technical ability via years of graft to learn them then they are useless. Then you have to ask, if so are you going to forcefully make your pilots join another nations army.

The same goes for the navy.

I know Scotland provides a far greater number of soldiers than its population proportion so I don't think that would be a problem but setting up their own logistics, military academies etc will be a huge cost.

Its just a question come any potential negotiations nothing to do with whether or not to vote yes or no.

That Charlie MacGregor could fly them all on a rotational basis.

The way i see it would be that serving Scottish members of the UK armed forces would be asked to take redundancy (we are trying to draw down after all) or serve out their terms if they were to stay. RUK would not then recruit any more Scottish personnel. Scottish personnel could then join their own Armed forces and the rest would be made up from regional recruitment. If i was David Cameron, i'd sack the lot and asset strip the SAcottish Regts of anything not nailed down.

We accept people from other nationalities into the british army. I doubt we would put a blanket ban of lads wanting to join the british army.

There's the odd South African, and even Aussie, but other than that, the British Armed Forces are British...

Said to be 4000 Irishman in the BI from the republic. One BBC source says up to 15% of all NI recruitment is from rep. of Ireland.

[LordDowlais]

Anyway, back on topic, I do not think that Alex Salmond playing straight here, I reckon he is playing with a loaded dice and is just after his own ends, even if it means shafting the rest of his countrymen.

[Sin é]

If you are a British national permanently living in Scotland at the projected 'Independence Day' then you'll be entitled to Scottish citizenship regardless of what side of the border you are from originally or anything else. Doesn't matter if you're as English as morris dancing and cricket, still able to be a Scottish national if you live there. And you wouldn't have to give up your British citizenship either. So in your example any Welsh, N. Irish, English living in Scotland could easily become Scottish citizens... if they wanted.

What about the otherway around ? My next door neighbour is Scottish, his wife isn't, she's Welsh, and I know he is prying for a NO vote, although he does not get a vote as he lives in Wales, does he get automatic dual citizenship ?

Yep. The way it worked for Ireland is that anyone born before 1949 when Ireland became a Republic can have automatic British citizenship if they want it. Thats why Tony O'Reilly (born in 1936 has a knighthood) - he is entitlted to automatic dual citizenship of UK and of ROI.

Your Welsh neighbour would be entitled to Scottish citizenship. I'd also imagine that the British Gov. would not take away existing UK citzenship from those born in Scotland.

[Notch]

Googled Fijians in the British Army, Observer article on the front page from 2009 says more than 2000 in the Army at that point. Wasn't that Fijian Bath winger Semesa Rokoduguni a serving soldier in the Army?

So obviously there are a good number of foreign nationals in the British armed forces.

[Sin é]

quick question.

I have no idea but from a quick search the UK has about 100 typhoon fighters. Salmond wants 12 of these.

Without any inclination... are there a) an equivalent number of Scottish pilots available to fill them and b) will they leave the british army.

Its all good and well getting the machinery but if you don't have the technical ability via years of graft to learn them then they are useless. Then you have to ask, if so are you going to forcefully make your pilots join another nations army.

The same goes for the navy.

I know Scotland provides a far greater number of soldiers than its population proportion so I don't think that would be a problem but setting up their own logistics, military academies etc will be a huge cost.

Its just a question come any potential negotiations nothing to do with whether or not to vote yes or no.

That Charlie MacGregor could fly them all on a rotational basis.

The way i see it would be that serving Scottish members of the UK armed forces would be asked to take redundancy (we are trying to draw down after all) or serve out their terms if they were to stay. RUK would not then recruit any more Scottish personnel. Scottish personnel could then join their own Armed forces and the rest would be made up from regional recruitment. If i was David Cameron, i'd sack the lot and asset strip the SAcottish Regts of anything not nailed down.

We accept people from other nationalities into the british army. I doubt we would put a blanket ban of lads wanting to join the british army.

There's the odd South African, and even Aussie, but other than that, the British Armed Forces are British...

Said to be 4000 Irishman in the BI from the republic. One BBC source says up to 15% of all NI recruitment is from rep. of Ireland.

Yes, its very difficult to get into the Irish Defence Forces - much easier to get into the British Army. Also, the Irish Defence Forces are mainly concerned with peacekeeping duties and as a neutral country our army makes quite a bit of money from UN peacekeeping duties. Our navy is mainly occupied with looking after the fishing grounds off the coast of Ireland.

I'd expect Scotland to go down that peacekeeping route as well.

[fa0019]

Anyway, back on topic, I do not think that Alex Salmond playing straight here, I reckon he is playing with a loaded dice and is just after his own ends, even if it means shafting the rest of his countrymen.

That's the very thing.

To him, a rise in poverty, child mortality, mobility of the young etc is worth it deep down I imagine as I'm sorry.... anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves. Anyone can grab the odd academic to state one way or another... but when the tide is so great against you from almost all areas of public life be it business, health, science, defence, academia, politics etc.. they all say contrary to his views.

Salmond is not stupid. He's an intelligent man. Of course he is giving a spin on things and he may not believe in what he's saying in some parts... but to him that doesn't matter as independence is his goal... how he gets there is not a concern and given he won't be the leader of Scotland when it become independent (it will be Scottish Labour 100%) he won't have to make those tough choices.

If he had any salt to him he would acknowledge some issues but he spins this flute like the pied piper of Hamelin telling everyone that Scotland is going to be this 74 virgin paradise. But this is not opinion, its not bluff, its real people's lives and the whole world is up in arms saying Scotland will be far worse off without the UK. If he could say, ok, we'd be worse off but would that really matter, to govern yourself wouldn't you forgive some cash in your pocket.... for that I'd be more likely to vote for him if I had one and I'd respect him for it too.

By any means.... no matter what the cost or whom it hurts, by any means.

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