GPro 12 - Ulster V Edinbrugh Rugby

by **RDW** Tue 30 Sep 2014, 12:37 pm

First topic message reminder :

GPro 12 - Ulster V Edinbrugh Rugby - Page 5 Ulster10

GPro 12 - Ulster V Edinbrugh Rugby - Page 5 Edinbu12

Ulster Rugby v Edinburgh Rugby
Friday 3rd October 2014
KO 19:35
~~Ravenhill~~ Kingspan Stadium
GPro 12 - Ulster V Edinbrugh Rugby - Page 5 Euro10

Live on BBC NI/BBC ALBA

Referee: Claudio Blessano GPro 12 - Ulster V Edinbrugh Rugby - Page 5 Headsl10

(FIR, 7th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Leo Colgan, Brian MacNeice (both IRFU)
Citing Commissioner: Eddie Walsh (IRFU)
TMO: Marshall Kilgore (IRFU)

Head to head:

29 Played 29
19 Wins 9
9 Losses 19
1 Draws 1
69 Tries 49
47 Conversions 36
89 Penalties 63
3 Drop Goals 6
715 Points 524
27 Avg. Age 25

Teams:

Ulster
GPro 12 - Ulster V Edinbrugh Rugby - Page 5 Villagepeoplegowestsingle

GPro 12 - Ulster V Edinbrugh Rugby - Page 5 Villagepeoplegowestsingle

15. Louis Ludik
14. Andrew Trimble
13. Jared Payne
12. Stuart McCIoskey
11. Tommy Bowe
10. Paddy Jackson
9. Paul Marshall

1. Ruaidhri Murphy
2. Rory Best (Captain)
3. Wiehahn Herbst
4. Alan O’Connor
5. Franco van der Merwe
6. Robbie Diack
7. Chris Henry
8. Roger Wilson

Replacements
16. Rob Herring
17. Andrew Warwick
18. Bronson Ross
19. Lewis Stevenson
20. Nick Williams
21. Michael Heaney
22. Stuart Olding
23. Darren Cave

Edinburgh
GPro 12 - Ulster V Edinbrugh Rugby - Page 5 Longroadtoruincover

GPro 12 - Ulster V Edinbrugh Rugby - Page 5 Longroadtoruincover

15 Greig Tonks
14 Jack Cuthbert
13 Sam Beard
12 Andries Strauss
11 Tim Visser
10 Phil Burleigh
9 Sean Kennedy

1 Rory Sutherland
2 Ross Ford
3 John Andress
4 Anton Bresler
5 Grant Gilchrist
6 Mike Coman (captain)
7 Roddy Grant
8 Cornell Du Preez

Substitutes
16 James Hilterbrand
17 Allan Dell
18 Willem Nell
19 Ollie Atkins
20 Tomas Leonardi
21 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne
22 Tom Heathcote
23 Nick McLennan

by **Biltong** Fri 03 Oct 2014, 9:44 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:No one is blaming the ref removed. His performance was awful which was plain for all to see, but that Edinburgh performance was utterly pathetic and we completely deserved to get stuffed. Probably should have been a wider margin had Ulster been sharper.

Come now FES, you know personal attacks are not tolerated

by **RDW** Fri 03 Oct 2014, 9:47 pm

The Saint wrote:Scots do it too often for my liking. Lost the last what 11 games to Wales? And whinged about the ref on every occasion, not that it had anything to with the opposition playing better...

Scotland v Wales has got absolutely nothing to do with this thread, so if you're just here on the wind up then move on.

As has been said, no one is saying the ref lost us that. Yes we questioned his decisions (who doesn't) but we were so so poor a decent ref wouldn't have made much difference.

by VinceWLB Fri 03 Oct 2014, 9:47 pm

The ref tonight got downgraded last season for a massive "homer" performance during the Blues-Connacht game. He clearly can't deal with the crowd pressure., nothing changed tonight.

Can someone tell me what is the point in starting Coman? no physicality, nothing.. and for all the talk of leadership well i haven't seen it.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 03 Oct 2014, 9:48 pm

Night all.....

by The Saint Fri 03 Oct 2014, 9:50 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
The Saint wrote:Scots do it too often for my liking. Lost the last what 11 games to Wales? And whinged about the ref on every occasion, not that it had anything to with the opposition playing better...

Scotland v Wales has got absolutely nothing to do with this thread, so if you're just here on the wind up then move on.

As has been said, no one is saying the ref lost us that. Yes we questioned his decisions (who doesn't) but we were so so poor a decent ref wouldn't have made much difference.

Just highlighting the whinging that goes on. Seems like a lot of it is going on here (as usual). I think as a mod you shouldn't encourage it so much and try and be a bit more positive, it breeds a 'positive environment.' Feel free to ignore me and discuss the match. I haven't seen it so I won't be commenting further.

by **RDW** Fri 03 Oct 2014, 9:52 pm

The Saint wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
The Saint wrote:Scots do it too often for my liking. Lost the last what 11 games to Wales? And whinged about the ref on every occasion, not that it had anything to with the opposition playing better...

Scotland v Wales has got absolutely nothing to do with this thread, so if you're just here on the wind up then move on.

As has been said, no one is saying the ref lost us that. Yes we questioned his decisions (who doesn't) but we were so so poor a decent ref wouldn't have made much difference.

Just highlighting the whinging that goes on. Seems like a lot of it is going on here (as usual). I think as a mod you shouldn't encourage it so much and try and be a bit more positive, it breeds a 'positive environment.' Feel free to ignore me and discuss the match. I haven't seen it so I won't be commenting further.

If you were an Edinburgh fan and watched the match, you'd understand why we are so negative!

by neilthom7 Fri 03 Oct 2014, 9:57 pm

Glad we got the win and the bonus there,a good recovery after last week. The guys who said the ref were poor are right he was not great tonight but as they also said it would not have made too much difference I don't think. McCloskey was great tonight again and is doing very well in a very competitive midfield. Also kudo's to the Edinburgh supporters giving us credit even with a bad reffing performance, you guys are all stand up and I hope the team improves for you's too. Hug

by **RDW** Fri 03 Oct 2014, 9:59 pm

How old is McCloskey? He looks like a Jamie Roberts in the making and could be Ireland's missing link in the backs - I've always thought they lack a physical presence.

Disappointed with Payne - I'm a bit fan of his but he was anonymous at 13.

by neilthom7 Fri 03 Oct 2014, 10:05 pm

He is around 21 I think RDW, he is defo very promising but has a whole heap of competition there with Olding and don't rule out Marshall either. Payne I think will grow into 13 as the season goes he has been interupted with injury so far so maybe if he gets a few games he will settle into it, when he was down under he was an excellant 13.

by **RDW** Fri 03 Oct 2014, 10:07 pm

All the other options at 12 are all similar build though - fairly small. Put him at 12 and get him rampaging over the gainline and you've got the makings of a good backline.

by VinceWLB Fri 03 Oct 2014, 10:09 pm

I have been extremely impressed by McCloskey too, Ulster's Alex Dunbar.

One for the future really.

by Guest Fri 03 Oct 2014, 10:11 pm

McCloskey has just turned 22.

I agree on Payne. Superb at 15, and average at 13. He was an outstanding outside centre when playing for the Blues, but is struggling to regain that form after having played Fullback for so long since. Ulster need a settled team, and if Payne can't reproduce that form he once had at 13, then Ulster has to give up trying him there.

by neilthom7 Fri 03 Oct 2014, 10:11 pm

Very True RDW it really depends on what game you are playing and who you are playing for example Olding tore Scarlets apart. It's going to be tough for Ulster to actually settle on a 12 and 13 partnership. Olding is reasonably strong, great defender and has that step, the pass and the kick so leads the way at 12 at the minute but McCloskey has a big upside and if Marshall can regain form he too is a fantastic player. Thats without mentioning Cave or Payne

by MrsP Fri 03 Oct 2014, 10:25 pm

Evening all.

Commiserations to our Edinburgh cousins. Tough patch just now.

I only saw the last 20mins and I don't know how the ref Big Nick holding that guy in the ruck but I was impressed that the ref used the TMO at the 60min mark for the first time in the match!

That's rare nowadays.

by **Notch** Fri 03 Oct 2014, 10:25 pm

Very disappointed with Ulsters level of performance tonight in the first half, but the last half-hour was closer to where we need to be. At least now there is some positivity to carry forward into next week!

Glasgow, as I made clear earlier in this thread, are a team that i have a lot of time for. That tonight wouldn't be enough to get the 4-0 points spread we should be targeting next week, nor the 4-0 points spread we should be looking for against both Leicester and Toulon for that matter.

We still need to improve a lot of things very quickly. I just hope the coaches don't let it turn into a back-patting session. If the last 30 minutes were a 7/10, you'd be struggling to give the first 50 a 3/10. They need a reality check. We got the bare minimum acceptable result from this game. 4 points would have felt like a loss.

by **Notch** Fri 03 Oct 2014, 10:30 pm

As for Edinburgh, I know where you are because Ulster used to be as bad as that. Wasn't easy. But these tough times either make or break your team spirit. They should focus on fast-tracking young Scottish talent and emphasising pride in the jersey above all else. Build a culture first. You can't do that with too many imports, it has to be young lads who have grown up dreaming of wearing that Edinburgh jersey above all else. I thought they did show a lot of pride in fighting to deny us the bonus point, they didn't give up. The attitude was good from Edinburgh. But yeah, the performance was way off standard.

Good luck for the rest of the season guys, and we'll see you at Murrayfield for the rematch

by **Notch** Fri 03 Oct 2014, 10:37 pm

One final thing; we do not have to crowbar Payne into this team. Cave is a better 13 right now. Louis Ludik is a better 15. There's literally no need for Payne to play in the European Cup games. He could use a spell in the Ravens to figure out what position suits him best.

Seems to think he's going to walk into the Ireland team at 13. In actual fact, his move to 13 has allowed us to replace him with Ludik at fullback and we've found there are other, better options at 13 already in the squad. So now he has to be sent to the Ravens and start from scratch in terms of earning his place back.

by TJ Fri 03 Oct 2014, 10:52 pm

cakeordeath wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:No one is blaming the ref you removed. His performance was awful which was plain for all to see, but that Edinburgh performance was utterly pathetic and we completely deserved to get stuffed. Probably should have been a wider margin had Ulster been sharper.

Just ignore him fES. He is all butthurt from another thread and now trolls the Edinburgh/Glasgow threads, with these comments

Block him. I have done and the boards are better for it. Never answer him. Hopefully the hateful troll will get borede adn go away

by TJ Fri 03 Oct 2014, 10:53 pm

Can Anyone explain why Jackson went off to have his arm bandaged adn came back on again? No blood, no concussion.

by TJ Fri 03 Oct 2014, 10:56 pm

Edinburgh were comnpetative until the last 20 mins - but then seemed to fall apart. A few decisins agaist tehhemadn some very streetwise play from Ulster.

I thought Ulsters breakdown work was very good indeed both in attack and defense, worked out quickly the ref was allowing a contest for the ball and simply were at the breakdown quicker than Edinburgh all the time - especially on their own ball where we hardly had a chance to challenge for the ball.

Well played ulster. FFS Edinburgh!

by Guest Fri 03 Oct 2014, 11:07 pm

Not a clue why Jackson went off. I was a bit concerned when he went, and relieved when he came back. Although confused Headscratch

Rory Best is a beast at the breakdown, and made the turnovers look easy. He is in great form for Ulster. Now we just need a settled centre pairing, Paddy to find form, which he will, Pienaar to return, and the team to click. Sorted Very Happy

by ghad Fri 03 Oct 2014, 11:12 pm

Edinburgh were comnpetative until the last 20 mins - but then seemed to fall apart. A few decisins agaist tehhemadn some very streetwise play from Ulster.

30-0 you cannot say they were comnpetative or competitive. Tenner says they only find a pair for the 1872.

by TJ Fri 03 Oct 2014, 11:17 pm

30 nil of course is not competitive - but until the 5 m scrum with the squint feed then the yellow card they looked to be at lest in the same game - then they looked like boys agaisnt men the last 1/4 of the game.

I hope someone looks into the Jackson "blood bin" Seems very odd to me. He clearly was struggling with his arm and went off to have it bandaged. I bet they claim "concussion" but I saw no blow to the head nor any blood.

by InjuredYetAgain Fri 03 Oct 2014, 11:23 pm

ghad wrote:Edinburgh were comnpetative until the last 20 mins - but then seemed to fall apart. A few decisins agaist tehhemadn some very streetwise play from Ulster.

30-0 you cannot say they were comnpetative or competitive. Tenner says they only find a pair for the 1872.

Stop at the boozer on the way home perchance?

by TJ Fri 03 Oct 2014, 11:25 pm

He is taking the micky out of my poor spelling / fat fingers!

by MrsP Fri 03 Oct 2014, 11:33 pm

TJ wrote:30 nil of course is not competitive - but until the 5 m scrum with the squint feed then the yellow card they looked to be at lest in the same game - then they looked like boys agaisnt men the last 1/4 of the game.

I hope someone looks into the Jackson "blood bin" Seems very odd to me. He clearly was struggling with his arm and went off to have it bandaged. I bet they claim "concussion" but I saw no blow to the head nor any blood.

I just had a look and I would guess it was a "head bin" temporary replacement. Just because you did not see a clear head injury does not mean there wasn't one. Better to check.

by TJ Fri 03 Oct 2014, 11:50 pm

I hope someone does - I might have missed something but it looks a bit suspicious to me.

by Standulstermen Fri 03 Oct 2014, 11:55 pm

In fairness I'm not disputing some poor decisions but I thought the ref let Edinburgh away with murder at scrum time. That said and as much as people here our lauding McCloskey I thought our back play was seriously shocking. I fully expect Glasgow to put a W in the column next week

by **profitius** Sat 04 Oct 2014, 12:03 am

Wasn't a great match. It looks like Alan Solomons decided in the summer that he was going to make Edinbrugh hard to beat. Problem is the attack is non existent and the opposition keep coming at them in waves.

Good game for McCloskey and good debut from Alan O'Connor.

RDW_Scotland wrote:How old is McCloskey? He looks like a Jamie Roberts in the making and could be Ireland's missing link in the backs - I've always thought they lack a physical presence.

Disappointed with Payne - I'm a bit fan of his but he was anonymous at 13.

Good point re McCloskey and the Ireland backline. I saw him for the emerging Ireland side in the summer and he looked an impressive athlete. As Andy Nicol said at half time, he isn't just a straight runner like many big men. He has a bit of a step. Most impressive thing for me about him tonight was his passing. He looks skillful too. Need to see more of him but he looks more promising than Luke Marshall who is a good player himself.

by **RDW** Sat 04 Oct 2014, 7:30 am

Standulstermen wrote:In fairness I'm not disputing some poor decisions but I thought the ref let Edinburgh away with murder at scrum time. That said and as much as people here our lauding McCloskey I thought our back play was seriously shocking. I fully expect Glasgow to put a W in the column next week

If he let us away with murder, why did he penalise us so often??

As I said earlier we've been on the wrong side of the ref every game this year. This surely isn't a coincidence - the fault lies with the players and they need to sort it out asap.

I didn't think Coman's card was a yellow - a pet hate of mine is refs automatically assuming a maul collapsed due to foul play. Mauls are very unstable and often collapse on their own accord. Would need more replays obviously, but it didn't look to me like anyone pulled it down.

Saying that, we shouldn't have even been in that position, and 7 yellows in 5 games is appalling. Also 14 penalties against, 4 for. We lost 8 penalties in the 2nd half.

Some serious problems st Edinburgh.

by InjuredYetAgain Sat 04 Oct 2014, 7:46 am

As much as we want to blame the ref (justifiably or not) it isn't the ref who plays touch rugby to let guys run in for a try from 40 yards out, it isn't the ref who overthrows his jumper consistently, it isn't the ref who comes in from the side of rucks etc.
Three needs to be a massive change in mindset for Edinburgh. At the moment, the players just seem to be going through motions and to hell with the outcome. There does seem to be a lack of leadership both on and off the field.

by **RDW** Sat 04 Oct 2014, 7:48 am

Again to be clear, I'm not blaming refs - the fault is entirely with the coaches and players.

by **Notch** Sat 04 Oct 2014, 7:56 am

GLove39 wrote:Random question, but why is the Ulster mascot called Sparky?

...you know what? I really don't know.

by InjuredYetAgain Sat 04 Oct 2014, 7:56 am

Sorry RDW my comment was just a general one and wasn't aimed at you. I get frustrated at the refs too but we should be able to adapt to their interpretations if the laws

by alive555 Sat 04 Oct 2014, 8:02 am

missed the game but obvioulsy edinburgh need to fire half the squad.

here it is - strikethrough the ones needing culled

~~Coach - Solomons~~

15 Greig Tonks
14 Jack Cuthbert
13 Sam Beard
12 Andries Strauss
11 Tim Visser
10 Phil Burleigh
9 Sean Kennedy

1 Rory Sutherland
2 Ross Ford
3 John Andress
4 Anton Bresler
5 Grant Gilchrist
6 Mike Coman (captain)
7 Roddy Grant
8 Cornell Du Preez

Substitutes
16 James Hilterbrand
17 Allan Dell
18 Willem Nell
19 Ollie Atkins
20 Tomas Leonardi
21 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne
22 Tom Heathcote
23 Nick McLennan

by InjuredYetAgain Sat 04 Oct 2014, 8:05 am

As I have said before, there are no game changers there especially if the ball is dropped before it even gets near Visser.
For all his faults, Matawalu provides a spark and the yes-voters seem to feed of that and raise their own game (possibly to cover for some of Matawalu's errors admittedly)

by MrsP Sat 04 Oct 2014, 8:06 am

Notch wrote:
GLove39 wrote:Random question, but why is the Ulster mascot called Sparky?

...you know what? I really don't know.

I always thought it was from the days when NIE were one of our main sponsors?

by The Great Aukster Sat 04 Oct 2014, 9:31 am

InjuredYetAgain wrote:As I have said before, there are no game changers there especially if the ball is dropped before it even gets near Visser.
For all his faults, Matawalu provides a spark and the yes-voters seem to feed of that and raise their own game (possibly to cover for some of Matawalu's errors admittedly)

Edinburgh may lack game changers but they need far more secure ball in the first place. As far as I can see Edinburgh are an improving side with more steel in them than last year. I can understand Solomons trying to build a forward foundation first, because without a reliable set piece nothing can be built. The new scrum laws certainly don't suit Ross Ford and his throwing from the line never was that great so if the set piece doesn't improve his place could be under threat.

BTW if those Edinburgh fans complaining about the ref take the time to watch the game again, I suspect you'll see he didn't have as bad a game as you think.
Before the yellow card, he warned the pack saying the next maul infringement would be a card, when Edinburgh infringed again lo an behold the ref produced yellow.
The squint feed wasn't the first, and the SH had been told earlier to put it in straighter so again it was hardly surprising that with the Edinburgh scrum going backwards and with a hooker who doesn't hook that the ref called that feed.
Du Preez being penalised was an obvious mistake by the ref, but one that could have been avoided if he had made some attempt to at least look as though he was trying to get out of the way

by **Notch** Sat 04 Oct 2014, 10:29 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:I didn't think Coman's card was a yellow - a pet hate of mine is refs automatically assuming a maul collapsed due to foul play. Mauls are very unstable and often collapse on their own accord. Would need more replays obviously, but it didn't look to me like anyone pulled it down.

Saying that, we shouldn't have even been in that position, and 7 yellows in 5 games is appalling. Also 14 penalties against, 4 for. We lost 8 penalties in the 2nd half.

I think a lot of referees are going to give the benefit of the doubt to the side that is dominant and motoring forward when a maul goes down. If it goes down and looks like a try would be scored if it didn't go down, which happened more than several times last night, it has to be a penalty. A harsher ref might have given more cards. I thought Blessano was very measured in his approach. There is always a reason mauls collapse and it's still a penalty if its because the defending team is just too knackered to keep it upright even if they didn't intend to collapse it.

The maul is another area which is incredibly hard to referee. It would not have been entirely fair if the team that was completely dominating that area didn't get the benefit of it on the night. Whilst you guys were furious with the referees interpretation the other Ulster fans around me were also equally furious that the referee didn't go to his pocket earlier or just award the penalty try.

by Winger11 Sat 04 Oct 2014, 10:48 am

Solomans is doing more harm than good. It seems he is adamant about playing a forward- orientated gameplan when that's not where the team's strengths lie! Our strengths lie in the backline with the likes of s-h-c, matt scott, hurly, fife and visser. He is banging a square peg into a round hole.

If our performances haven't improved by christmas when we have denton and scott back we need to get rid of him because he is stifling scottish talent!

by VinceWLB Sat 04 Oct 2014, 10:56 am

Why the backline yesterday wasn't 10 Tonks 11 Visser 12 Burleigh 13 Beard 14 Thompson 15 Cuthbert
i will never know.

by **Notch** Sat 04 Oct 2014, 11:06 am

What I was really delighted about was the ref not using the TMO until the 61st minute! Unbelievably refreshing to see a ref who is willing to back himself and not ruin the game with constant TMO referrals.

by TJ Sat 04 Oct 2014, 12:28 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:

BTW if those Edinburgh fans complaining about the ref take the time to watch the game again, I suspect you'll see he didn't have as bad a game as you think.

I didn't think he was great - but I am sure both sets of fans feel diddled and no huge errors and he took the time to consult with the TJs. I do think he made mistakes at the scrum favouring the Ulster prop who was puling down every time - but then name me a ref who always gets the scrums right

by Nematode Sat 04 Oct 2014, 6:10 pm

Edinburgh quite simply had no strategy whatsoever.

The defence was shocking - this should have been a much more comfortable win for Ulster. There was no communication in defence or commitment, highlighted by the Visser/Strauss fiasco letting Trimble in. If you go to Murrayfield to watch Edinburgh (not many teams can say you'll get a row to yourself...) you can see this plainly. Burleigh does give orders but the likes of Struass and Dominguez look half awake.

The attack, well, it was not there. Kennedy failed in his box kicking, Burleigh's up and unders were awful, there was just nothing. I'm actually glad the ref pinged for a squint feed so in the Scotsman we don't hear from an Edinburgh coach about how 'good' our scrum is. (Btw, have you read these articles? HEALTH WARNING: Don't)

Edinburgh Rugby Erm

GPro 12 - Ulster V Edinbrugh Rugby - Page 5 Picard-facepalm-o

by **RDW** Sat 04 Oct 2014, 6:17 pm

Well on the plus side, Edinburgh's next game is on a Saturday afternoon, so I'll be playing rugby and will miss it!

Also, for some reason Sky decided Edinburgh v Dragons would be a good game to broadcast! Shocked

by JonnyEdinburgh Sat 04 Oct 2014, 6:35 pm

Cant add anything that hasnt already been said. Like rdw i am looking forward to not being able to make next Saturday's game. I had backed Solomons to see out the season but my patience is paper thin now.

On another note, I've just seen the result from France where Bordeaux just put 52 points on Clermont. We are away to then in a fortnight!!!

by InjuredYetAgain Sat 04 Oct 2014, 6:54 pm

52 points. Zut alors! Nous sommes dans le merde (as they say in French speaking parts of the world)

by Dorothy_Mantooth Sat 04 Oct 2014, 7:52 pm

Why is Solomons saying that Scott and Denton were missing due to player management issues? Surely they are injured, why not just say that.

Peter Wright has not missed him, saying that the coach is blaming players being missing but the key guys missing weren't his signings so what does that say about the players who were playing and those who are failing are alomost all his signings

by MrsP Thu 09 Oct 2014, 8:00 am

TJ wrote:30 nil of course is not competitive - but until the 5 m scrum with the squint feed then the yellow card they looked to be at lest in the same game - then they looked like boys agaisnt men the last 1/4 of the game.

I hope someone looks into the Jackson "blood bin" Seems very odd to me. He clearly was struggling with his arm and went off to have it bandaged. I bet they claim "concussion" but I saw no blow to the head nor any blood.

TJ,

You can put your tinfoil helmet away now!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29532647

It is a bit concerning that he was allowed back on the pitch but at least they showed willing by taking him off and testing him. It also shows that they are taking the whole concussion thing much more seriously.

by The Great Aukster Thu 09 Oct 2014, 1:03 pm

My concern is that the concussion was actually incurred in the Zebre game.

In that game Jackson was penalised for not rolling away by potato head when it looked like he had sparked out. In the next couple of phases he stumbled shakily towards the wing for some respite only for the Zebre prop to charge over him and score the decisive try - he was subbed immediately after.

Against Edinburgh they took him off no doubt with the previous week in mind.

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