GPro 12 - Ulster V Edinbrugh Rugby

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Ulster Rugby v Edinburgh Rugby
Friday 3rd October 2014
KO 19:35
Ravenhill Kingspan Stadium


Live on BBC NI/BBC ALBA

Referee: Claudio Blessano(FIR, 7th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Leo Colgan, Brian MacNeice (both IRFU)
Citing Commissioner: Eddie Walsh (IRFU)
TMO: Marshall Kilgore (IRFU)

Head to head:

29 Played 29
19 Wins 9
9 Losses 19
1 Draws 1
69 Tries 49
47 Conversions 36
89 Penalties 63
3 Drop Goals 6
715 Points 524
27 Avg. Age 25

Teams:

Ulster


15. Louis Ludik
14. Andrew Trimble
13. Jared Payne
12. Stuart McCIoskey
11. Tommy Bowe
10. Paddy Jackson
9. Paul Marshall

1. Ruaidhri Murphy
2. Rory Best (Captain)
3. Wiehahn Herbst
4. Alan O’Connor
5. Franco van der Merwe
6. Robbie Diack
7. Chris Henry
8. Roger Wilson

Replacements
16. Rob Herring
17. Andrew Warwick
18. Bronson Ross
19. Lewis Stevenson
20. Nick Williams
21. Michael Heaney
22. Stuart Olding
23. Darren Cave


Edinburgh


15 Greig Tonks
14 Jack Cuthbert
13 Sam Beard
12 Andries Strauss
11 Tim Visser
10 Phil Burleigh
9 Sean Kennedy

1 Rory Sutherland
2 Ross Ford
3 John Andress
4 Anton Bresler
5 Grant Gilchrist
6 Mike Coman (captain)
7 Roddy Grant
8 Cornell Du Preez

Substitutes
16 James Hilterbrand
17 Allan Dell
18 Willem Nell
19 Ollie Atkins
20 Tomas Leonardi
21 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne
22 Tom Heathcote
23 Nick McLennan

Think it's fair to say if you asked me who most of the Edinburgh players were I'd have to respond with 'they're all crap'!

Difficult to avoid a bit of wee coming out whilst looking at that Ulster team, particularly with great footballers like Olding and Cave on the bench.

That said:

1. Absolutely delighted for Sutherland, although he's going to have to have a great game to get parity with Herbst who is looking like a bit of a scrum monster. Come on the youngfeller.
2. Having the Ginger Midget and Gilcho back has absolutely got to settle the pack. I will be apoplectic if our line out is still as embarrassing as it was last week. No excuse for it. I mean, it can't possibly be as bad.
3. Tonks is injured and that's unfortunate, but I am keen to see what Hurley can do at 10.
4. Coman People is back, so time to see (or perhaps 'feel') that Leadership.

GC it's not half as much wee as I'll be doing if they don't actually go out and play some rugby for the first time this season. They have had the wake up call, there's no excuses.

Ulster expects!!!!!!!!!!

Pete330v2 wrote:
Ulster expects!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sure Edinburgh will deliver...

Lets assume Heathcote is being partly rested!

Pappy should change his selection to

15 Greig Tonks Cuthbert the oil tanker
14 Jack Cuthbert A young academy winger or even put strauss out here. He'd not get much ball to be a liability with
13 Sam Beard
12 Andries Strauss Burleigh
11 Tim Visser
10 Phil Burleigh Tonks
9 Sean Kennedy

Agree with you tattie, and the out and out winger we have available is Thompson!

Here's my lowdown on the five of them;

Alan O'Connor is probably not that good. He's obviously got some potential but he's an Academy lock. Freaks of nature like the Gray brothers and Iain Henderson aside they take time to season and mature. This is his first start for Ulster. He'll take time. I really see it as the weakness in this Ulster pack unless he can produce something we haven't seen from him yet.

Wiehahn Herbst has been a great signing, saw he made WalesOnlines team of the Pro12 so far. It's gratifying he's getting plaudits as the most in-form tight head in the league already given how we were told by fans of other teams that Afoa was irreplaceable (even though he quite literally couldn't be arsed in his last season and was just seeing out his contract).

Ruaidhri Murphy hasn't really impressed me all that much so far. He is neither fish nor foul. Not dominant in the scrum and not much of a presence in the loose. Needs to do a lot more to catch my eye.

Louis Ludik has been in many ways my player of the season for Ulster so far. He's already scored two tries in his three games and he had another legitimate try ruled out by a TMO against the Scarlets. Exemplary defender, brilliant attacker and stronger than his frame suggests. Early front runner for our Player of the Year award if he keeps his current form up.

McCloskey I like a lot. He's a powerful 18-stone strike runner, but he also has great footwork and a brilliant offloading game. If Jared Payne sticks to running on his shoulder and we get on the front foot he'll put him into space again and again. I probably prefer him slightly to Luke Marshall. Olding has a minor shoulder strain.

tigertattie wrote:Lets assume Heathcote is being partly rested!

Pappy should change his selection to

15 Greig Tonks Cuthbert the oil tanker
14 Jack Cuthbert A young academy winger or even put strauss out here.  He'd not get much ball to be a liability with
13 Sam Beard
12 Andries Strauss Burleigh
11 Tim Visser
10 Phil Burleigh Tonks
9 Sean Kennedy

FFS - is that selection real?

More mix n' match from Ulster.

Please lads, just settle the feck down and play some rugby.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Agree with you tattie, and the out down and out winger we have available is Thompson!

Correction made - no charge

If any medically trained folk are going to Ravenhill (I am a traditionalist) please take as many slings as you can.
All Edinburgh players are, sadly, going to be handed their arses in said slings, I fear.
Ulster to win by a truck load

Notch wrote:Wiehahn Herbst has been a great signing, saw he made WalesOnlines team of the Pro12 so far. It's gratifying he's getting plaudits as the most in-form tight head in the league already given how we were told by fans of other teams that Afoa was irreplaceable (even though he quite literally couldn't be arsed in his last season and was just seeing out his contract).

I loved that 'team of the Pro 12' feature.

The only Glasgow players selected were Gray (who has barely played this season) and Strauss and the article described Glasgow as "a team of no big name players".

Looking forward to reading the WalesOnline headlines in a month's time when we've tossed the Ospreys around like a dog's chew toy.

Well Glasgow are a team of no big name players GC. Ulster are a team of big name players. Therefore, as an Ulster fan, I am insanely envious of Glasgow. Glasgows squad mentality is what I would aspire to mimic instead of a team where a few big names are relied on to lift performances. If no-one stands out- then its because either everyone is playing well or no-one is. Olding stood out against the Scarlets in a terrible team performance. I would trade his demonstration of sheer ability for consistent team accuracy in defence and attack- the first one gets players attention from pundits, the second one is what actually wins games.

Ulster pootle along with their big names, doing enough to get into playoffs and so on but week to week they are rarely playing better than 4/10 or 5/10 in terms of fulfilling their own potential. Often you get weeks where the attitude seems to be Ruan or somebody will produce something brilliant and win us this game. There's often a lack of focus or complacency, we know we have class that can win games and so we just rely on it. Glasgow with their squad of decent but unspectacular players are normally hitting 6, 7 or 8 out of 10 in terms of performance week on week. Everybody takes responsibility and everybody has total confidence in themselves and the players around them.

Look at Tommy Seymour. He had to leave Ulster because he was never going to be able to break into our back line, we simply have too much depth. We wanted to keep him but we couldn't as we couldn't guarantee him any amount of game time. And Glasgow have him playing out of his skin as a starter. No surprise to me, I knew exactly what we were losing when he left but it illustrates the point; if it was decided on talent alone, it would be easy. Seymour wasn't talented enough to nail down a wing berth for his home town team but he's able to outshine the more talented guys who were ahead of him week on week because he's in a team environment that allows him to thrive.

Culture and mentality is what wins trophies, not just a collection of quality players. Glasgow know that.

Aww shucks, Notch. I'm not crying... I've just been chopping onions.

I see over 15000 tickets have been sold - have to say, I'm massively envious of that! Edinburgh's crowds are definitely down this season in the last two games, I'm sure due to the Ospreys humping. If these poor performances carry on I dread to think what our attendances will be like on minging winter nights.

We definitely have been fairly glum about our prospects, but it wouldn't surprise me if we actually put in a decent shift tonight. We are so incredibly inconsistent just now, and a sign of inconsistency is occasionally putting in good performances! We have had a week to prepare, and hopefully the atmosphere will get them up for it.

Given it is a minging night, I can see it being fairly close (i.e. Ulster within 10 points) up to 60 minutes then Ulster scoring some tries near the end to kill off the game.

34-12 FT or something like that.

Whatever happens tonight it will be good to welcome back Alan Solomons again. A lot of the older players owe a hell of a lot to him in terms of the development of their careers, guys of the vintage of Wilson and Bowe et cetera, so I'm sure he'll get a warm reception.

Nicely written post there Notch, the one at 11pm last night. It's the absolute crux of our problem and something that vitally needs to be addressed by whosoever takes over as the manager/director or coach of the current squad. As you have said we would gladly swap the abilities of our star names for the team mentality at Glasgow. Glasgow are like the ant colony, almost one single organic entity. We are the chicken run filled with headless chickens at times. I do envy the Weegies but we must hide that envy next week and break up their team ethic

Also indeed a warm welcome back to Mr Solomons. I wonder what he'll think of the developments in the stadium since he was running things.

Fifth centre combination in as many games, apparemtly.

I don't begrudge McCloskey game time when he has worked hard to earn selection, but we need to start giiving our first-teamers tiem together. Especially if there is a temptation to airdrop Ruan in against Toulon.

I'm going to stick my neck out and predict an underwhelming, frustrating win for Ulster. The weather's minging - we often get a vocal, fiery crowd in those circumstances.

Don Alfonso wrote:Fifth centre combination in as many games, apparemtly.

I don't begrudge McCloskey game time when he has worked hard to earn selection, but we need to start giiving our first-teamers tiem together. Especially if there is a temptation to airdrop Ruan in against Toulon.

I'm going to stick my neck out and predict an underwhelming, frustrating win for Ulster. The weather's minging - we often get a vocal, fiery crowd in those circumstances.

Don its a fine line, everyone needs game time so that they are ready when their time comes, we need out first choices ready and firing on all cylinders for the big games and we don't want to overuse players to the extent they are running on empty come the tail end of the season or as with Ulster being held together by tape

True, and Ulster have been stung there before. I just think I'd like our centres for the Not The Heineken Cup to have met before.

Weather wise I was thinking the same Don. It's a minging day and will most likely dictate the tempo of this game and leave us all feeling underwhelmed and empty yet again.
We need a side that we can have settled for the european stage and nows the time to begin settling and stop tampering. It's looking more and more likely that McCloskey and Olding are going to be the inside centres of choice whilst the Payne experiment continues. Payne needs to show us why we're playing him at 13 and I know he can. Maybe the big man at 12 is just what he needs with Olding coming on later to add a little razzle-dazzle.

Notch wrote:Well Glasgow are a team of no big name players GC. Ulster are a team of big name players. Therefore, as an Ulster fan, I am insanely envious of Glasgow. Glasgows squad mentality is what I would aspire to mimic instead of a team where a few big names are relied on to lift performances. If no-one stands out- then its because either everyone is playing well or no-one is. Olding stood out against the Scarlets in a terrible team performance. I would trade his demonstration of sheer ability for consistent team accuracy in defence and attack- the first one gets players attention from pundits, the second one is what actually wins games.

Ulster pootle along with their big names, doing enough to get into playoffs and so on but week to week they are rarely playing better than 4/10 or 5/10 in terms of fulfilling their own potential. Often you get weeks where the attitude seems to be Ruan or somebody will produce something brilliant and win us this game. There's often a lack of focus or complacency, we know we have class that can win games and so we just rely on it. Glasgow with their squad of decent but unspectacular players are normally hitting 6, 7 or 8 out of 10 in terms of performance week on week. Everybody takes responsibility and everybody has total confidence in themselves and the players around them.

Look at Tommy Seymour. He had to leave Ulster because he was never going to be able to break into our back line, we simply have too much depth. We wanted to keep him but we couldn't as we couldn't guarantee him any amount of game time. And Glasgow have him playing out of his skin as a starter. No surprise to me, I knew exactly what we were losing when he left but it illustrates the point; if it was decided on talent alone, it would be easy. Seymour wasn't talented enough to nail down a wing berth for his home town team but he's able to outshine the more talented guys who were ahead of him week on week because he's in a team environment that allows him to thrive.

Culture and mentality is what wins trophies, not just a collection of quality players. Glasgow know that.

What do you mean by big name player? apart from Pienaar i don't see a lot of big name players in the Ulster team either, Well maybe Bowe and Trimble but i would argue DTH van Der Merwe, Seymour and Maitland are of the same caliber.
Glasgow's have still a lot of relatively young players in the pack like Jonny Gray, Rob Harley, Jon Welsh (in propping terms) or in the backs like Dunbar, Hogg and Bennett, they are no big names yet.

"apart from Pienaar i don't see a lot of big name players in the Ulster team either, Well maybe Bowe and Trimble"

Best, Touhy, Payne, F VdM, Henry, Wilson, Gilroy, Cave, Diack..........yeah maybe stretching things a teeny bit but I do think Notch is right in that there are more household names in Ulster's squad but with less squad mentality which negates the shining stars.
Glasgow are like how I heard the All Blacks described a few months back. A squad of very solid players with a few world class players thrown in but it's the team mentality that holds the ABs together not the marquee names that are within the squad.

Don Alfonso wrote:True, and Ulster have been stung there before. I just think I'd like our centres for the Not The Heineken Cup to have met before.

Fortunately Toulon and their squad that could populate a small Irish town, have been rotating a lot too with a different half back pairing each game and I think a different front row too. Its just a shame that those players could probably walk into most teams in Europe

Pete330v2 wrote:"apart from Pienaar i don't see a lot of big name players in the Ulster team either, Well maybe Bowe and Trimble"

Best, Touhy, Payne, F VdM, Henry, Wilson, Gilroy, Cave, Diack..........yeah maybe stretching things a teeny bit but I do think Notch is right in that there are more household names in Ulster's squad but with less squad mentality which negates the shining stars.
Glasgow are like how I heard the All Blacks described a few months back. A squad of very solid players with a few world class players thrown in but it's the team mentality that holds the ABs together not the marquee names that are within the squad.

Because you hear these names almost every day in Belfast!

In Glasgow the same could be said of players like Murray (very similar to Best imo), Grant, Swinson (very similar to Tuohy imo), Al Kellock (although better known for his rucks inspection), Wilson (similar to your Wilson), Strauss is certainly a bigger name than Diack, Matawalu is becoming quite a big name, Sean Lamont is a pretty big name too.

Well i felt it was stretching it a bit to say Ulster is full of big names and Glasgow isn't but i agree that team spirit and team cohesion has been a huge strenght in the Glasgow squad.
I like your comparison with the AB although i feel there are quite a few big names in their lineup!

The cohesion at Glasgow is impressive but you cannot say that there aren't big name players at the club. There are three players from the last Lions tour for starters, and several players with a whole bunch of international caps.

Whilst traditionally Scottish supporters haven't bigged up their players to the same degree as the Irish and Welsh, the Glasgow fans have been remedying this in spades over the last couple of seasons. Trust me. There are some seriously world class(ish) players in the Glasgow squad.....

"Because you hear these names almost every day in Belfast!"

I never go near the place

Point taken about the 'big names' but I do also get what Notch originally said and I still envy the Glasgow setup, the setup I truely believe will be winning some silverware this season.

No problem

They have inherited that setup and toughness in defense from Lineen and Mercer, Toonie made them click in attack, so far so good they do look in good shape to win some silverware but it's a long season.

VinceWLB wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:"apart from Pienaar i don't see a lot of big name players in the Ulster team either, Well maybe Bowe and Trimble"

Best, Touhy, Payne, F VdM, Henry, Wilson, Gilroy, Cave, Diack..........yeah maybe stretching things a teeny bit but I do think Notch is right in that there are more household names in Ulster's squad but with less squad mentality which negates the shining stars.
Glasgow are like how I heard the All Blacks described a few months back. A squad of very solid players with a few world class players thrown in but it's the team mentality that holds the ABs together not the marquee names that are within the squad.

Because you hear these names almost every day in Belfast!

In Glasgow the same could be said of players like Murray (very similar to Best imo), Grant, Swinson (very similar to Tuohy imo), Al Kellock (although better known for his rucks inspection), Wilson (similar to your Wilson), Strauss is certainly a bigger name than Diack, Matawalu is becoming quite a big name, Sean Lamont is a pretty big name too.

Well i felt it was stretching it a bit to say Ulster is full of big names and Glasgow isn't but i agree that team spirit and team cohesion has been a huge strenght in the Glasgow squad.
I like your comparison with the AB although i feel there are quite a few big names in their lineup!

I didn't want to be too princessy about his but seeing as some of my fellows have made exactly the same point, then I think it's safe for me to pile on.

I assumed that what my bud Notch meant by 'big name players' were guys who had performed with distinction internationally where the national side as a whole had also been successful. To that extent, Best, Bowe, Ferris, Pienaar, Afoa and the like are certainly 'big names' of the kind that Glasgow don't have as the Scottish national side hasn't been as successful as the Irish one and to get a handful of caps for the Boks or Blacks means you have made it as a world class player.

However, if we are really suggesting that the likes of Luke Marshall are 'bigger names' than the likes of Alex Dunbar then I don't think that's justifiable. What you mean is that they are bigger names 'in Ireland'. Stuart Olding and Mark Bennett are directly comparable in terms of age and potential but I don't think that most Ulster fans would be able to pick Bennett out of a police line up and the same would apply to Glasgow fans with Olding. The same goes for, say, DTH and Trimble, both prolific try scorers for their own clubs who have also become practically shoe-ins for their national sides.

Sean Maitland still holds Super Rugby try scoring records, Josh Strauss was on a recent Saffer newspaper list of the very best SA players in the professional era never to have been capped by the Springboks and Niko Matawalu was one of the biggest stars on the 7s circuit for many years before he was poached from the Navy Club. It's all relative, gentlepeople.

I think what this does go to show is that they only way to get respect in the international game is to play for an international side that regularly wins. And Scotland undeniably has a hell of a lot of making up to do in that respect.

I think it's important to define what "big name" means. For some people it might be a player's experience (caps), performance, price etc. So for example, BOD, North and Wilkinson fit these criteria respectively.

In my opinion, you need a mix of the first two. North has won grand slams and performed well on a winning lions tour for example.

Ulster do have some big name players in Best, Pienar and Bowe. But I'd say that's about it. For Glasgow I'd say Matawalu maybe, possibly Maitland too.

Does it matter though?

I've just realised why we've been so patchy recently. I haven't been on here before games posting "SUFTUM "

SUFTUM! SUFTCAB! !

Ulster have never, ever lost at the Kingspan. Fact.

Yeah we did get a little off topin there with the whole Ulster/Glasgow love-in so lets get back to the task at hand and the need to beat the stuffing out of our first Scottish visitors.

SUFTUM!!!

SUFTCAB!!!

SUFTCAB?

Doesn't quite have the same ring to it...

VinceWLB wrote:

Notch wrote:Well Glasgow are a team of no big name players GC. Ulster are a team of big name players. Therefore, as an Ulster fan, I am insanely envious of Glasgow. Glasgows squad mentality is what I would aspire to mimic instead of a team where a few big names are relied on to lift performances. If no-one stands out- then its because either everyone is playing well or no-one is. Olding stood out against the Scarlets in a terrible team performance. I would trade his demonstration of sheer ability for consistent team accuracy in defence and attack- the first one gets players attention from pundits, the second one is what actually wins games.

Ulster pootle along with their big names, doing enough to get into playoffs and so on but week to week they are rarely playing better than 4/10 or 5/10 in terms of fulfilling their own potential. Often you get weeks where the attitude seems to be Ruan or somebody will produce something brilliant and win us this game. There's often a lack of focus or complacency, we know we have class that can win games and so we just rely on it. Glasgow with their squad of decent but unspectacular players are normally hitting 6, 7 or 8 out of 10 in terms of performance week on week. Everybody takes responsibility and everybody has total confidence in themselves and the players around them.

Look at Tommy Seymour. He had to leave Ulster because he was never going to be able to break into our back line, we simply have too much depth. We wanted to keep him but we couldn't as we couldn't guarantee him any amount of game time. And Glasgow have him playing out of his skin as a starter. No surprise to me, I knew exactly what we were losing when he left but it illustrates the point; if it was decided on talent alone, it would be easy. Seymour wasn't talented enough to nail down a wing berth for his home town team but he's able to outshine the more talented guys who were ahead of him week on week because he's in a team environment that allows him to thrive.

Culture and mentality is what wins trophies, not just a collection of quality players. Glasgow know that.

What do you mean by big name player? apart from Pienaar i don't see a lot of big name players in the Ulster team either, Well maybe Bowe and Trimble but i would argue DTH van Der Merwe, Seymour and Maitland are of the same caliber.
Glasgow's have still a lot of relatively young players in the pack like Jonny Gray, Rob Harley, Jon Welsh (in propping terms) or in the backs like Dunbar, Hogg and Bennett, they are no big names yet.

'Big names' isn't about ability Vince. It has nothing to do with performances. 'Big names' is about what the media and fans think makes you a great player, 'big names' is about reputation and reputation alone. Being a big name and being a good player are often conterminous, but not the same. For example Adam Jones is a big name but he's not much of a player at the minute. He's a big name because he used to be fantastic. Tommy Bowe is a big name because of what he has achieved on the Lions tours etc. but that doesn't mean he's playing as well as a whole load of other less heralded players. But he'll always start for Ulster. That is precisely what is meant by a big name culture. There's a mentality that winning is about getting our big names out. People were writing us off because of the departure of John Afoa, Johann Muller and Tom Court- a lot of big names out. But even though John Afoa was playing like he didn't care about the jersey at all in his last season, he would always start when available last year. Why? Because he was a big name of course.

You argue that Van Der Merwe and Seymour are the same calibre as Bowe and Trimble. I agree with you- in terms of performances they are the same calibre in the Pro12. Are they big names in the same way? No, of course not. Seymour hasn't been on a Lions tour like Bowe, and he's a player who has had to leave his home country to get game time with a nation with less talent in the back three than Ireland. He might be playing better rugby in the Pro12 but you don't make your reputation in the Pro12. Once he's been top scorer in the Six Nations and been on Lions tour he'll be a big name.

What does all that about the Six Nations and the Lions tour have to do with performing in Pro12 rugby? Sweet f**k all.

Whilst Trimble and Bowe were identified as future Ireland internationals and potential big stars of the game from their days in Ulster Schools, Seymour came through the exact same pathway as them and had to scrap for his place all the way through Ulster Schools and the Ulster Academy. Eventually he had to change his national allegiance to get a chance of international gametime- transitioning from Ireland U20s to the Scotland national team.

I was devastated to lose Seymour but I understood his reasons for leaving. He isn't in the same league as Trimble and Bowe in the eyes of the Ireland selectors. At the top level of the game in international rugby, I think they are right, but he's still bloody good at this level and Glasgow are getting the best out of him- because unlike if he stayed at Ulster, they aren't going to just drop him for a 'big name' once Tommy Bowe is half-fit again no matter how well he's playing. And it doesn't matter about the Pro12. If the Irish selectors want Tommy Bowe to get game time in a certain position before the autumn, he will, regardless of the likes of Seymour being around. No wonder he left Ulster and Irish Rugby.

Glasgows ability to get the best out of Seymour and make him excel shows they aren't a big name team. They are just a bloody good one. If you read what I wrote, I don't see how you can't see that I'm paying massive compliments to Glasgow and being harsh on Ulster.  If anything, I'm massively surprised you're not just taking the compliments when they are on offer!

When it comes to the Pro12 don't give me the guy who has always been anointed as the next big thing, who has always excelled and is using the Pro12 as a platform to gain fitness for his test career and international rugby which is what really matters- give me the scrapper, the guy who will do anything for that extra inch, the guy who is playing for his team, his Cup Final is every weekend. Thats what you need in the Pro12. That is what Glasgow have in spades.

RDW_Scotland wrote:SUFTCAB?

Doesn't quite have the same ring to it...

It refers to the Ravers favourite warmer on a night like tonight RDW. Crepes.

SUFT Crepes and Beer !!!!!

"When it comes to the Pro12 don't give me the guy who has always been anointed as the next big thing, who has always excelled and is using the Pro12 as a platform to gain fitness for his test career and international rugby which is what really matters- give me the scrapper, the guy who will do anything for that extra inch, the guy who is playing for his team, his Cup Final is every weekend."

Words that deserve to be seen carved on a granite plinth at the gates of Ravenhill (sponsored by Kingspan) or more effectual on the wall of the home dressing room.
Great words again Notch.

Crepes??

You've changed Belfast. You've changed.

Pete330v2 wrote:"When it comes to the Pro12 don't give me the guy who has always been anointed as the next big thing, who has always excelled and is using the Pro12 as a platform to gain fitness for his test career and international rugby which is what really matters- give me the scrapper, the guy who will do anything for that extra inch, the guy who is playing for his team, his Cup Final is every weekend."

To words that describe what you are saying perfectly - Rob Harley.

If Edinburgh had XV Rob Harley's we wouldn't be in this mess.

Well written, Pete. Think we are on the same page.

Lots of comparable players between the two team, I think - in terms of talent and where they are in their careers. Henry and Harley, Cave and Dunbar, Olding and Bennett, Ludik and Mr AP, Murphy and Welsh.

Anyway, back to the Tuscany Frequenters v the Men of Ulster.

Notch wrote:
'Big names' isn't about ability Vince. It has nothing to do with performances. 'Big names' is about what the media and fans think makes you a great player, 'big names' is about reputation and reputation alone. Being a big name and being a good player are often conterminous, but not the same. For example Adam Jones is a big name but he's not much of a player at the minute. He's a big name because he used to be fantastic. Tommy Bowe is a big name because of what he has achieved on the Lions tours etc. but that doesn't mean he's playing as well as a whole load of other less heralded players. But he'll always start for Ulster. That is precisely what is meant by a big name culture. There's a mentality that winning is about getting our big names out. People were writing us off because of the departure of John Afoa, Johann Muller and Tom Court- a lot of big names out. But even though John Afoa was playing like he didn't care about the jersey at all in his last season, he would always start when available last year. Why? Because he was a big name of course.

You argue that Van Der Merwe and Seymour are the same calibre as Bowe and Trimble. I agree with you- in terms of performances they are the same calibre in the Pro12. Are they big names in the same way? No, of course not. Seymour hasn't been on a Lions tour like Bowe, and he's a player who has had to leave his home country to get game time with a nation with less talent in the back three than Ireland. He might be playing better rugby in the Pro12 but you don't make your reputation in the Pro12. Once he's been top scorer in the Six Nations and been on Lions tour he'll be a big name.

What does all that about the Six Nations and the Lions tour have to do with performing in Pro12 rugby? Sweet f**k all.

Whilst Trimble and Bowe were identified as future Ireland internationals and potential big stars of the game from their days in Ulster Schools, Seymour came through the exact same pathway as them and had to scrap for his place all the way through Ulster Schools and the Ulster Academy. Eventually he had to change his national allegiance to get a chance of international gametime- transitioning from Ireland U20s to the Scotland national team.

I was devastated to lose Seymour but I understood his reasons for leaving. He isn't in the same league as Trimble and Bowe in the eyes of the Ireland selectors. At the top level of the game in international rugby, I think they are right, but he's still bloody good at this level and Glasgow are getting the best out of him- because unlike if he stayed at Ulster, they aren't going to just drop him for a 'big name' once Tommy Bowe is half-fit again no matter how well he's playing. And it doesn't matter about the Pro12. If the Irish selectors want Tommy Bowe to get game time in a certain position before the autumn, he will, regardless of the likes of Seymour being around. No wonder he left Ulster and Irish Rugby.

Glasgows ability to get the best out of Seymour and make him excel shows they aren't a big name team. They are just a bloody good one. If you read what I wrote, I don't see how you can't see that I'm paying massive compliments to Glasgow and being harsh on Ulster.  If anything, I'm massively surprised you're not just taking the compliments when they are on offer!

When it comes to the Pro12 don't give me the guy who has always been anointed as the next big thing, who has always excelled and is using the Pro12 as a platform to gain fitness for his test career and international rugby which is what really matters- give me the scrapper, the guy who will do anything for that extra inch, the guy who is playing for his team, his Cup Final is every weekend. Thats what you need in the Pro12. That is what Glasgow have in spades.

Of course your post was very complimentary and i fully agree team ethos and work ethic as Glasgow is second to none really. I'm sorry you took my reply that way. That's great to hear about Glasgow and certainly something to be proud of, shame the other team can't take advices from them!

I heard you, reputation, particularly in rugby is very important and it is something very slow to build so slow that sometime players get a certain reputation while they have already declined!

For instance i rate DTH van der Merwe extremely high, with a good run of game under him i would say he is the best winger in the league, he has often been injured and just happen to play for Canada where it's hard to get success. It certainly aint Welsh media who will recognize his greatness! Think we can all agree on this.

At the end of the day it's all subjective and playing in the bigger (and better) country will probably help you getting a big name.
I really hope The Warriors will finally do some noise to get the recognition they deserve.

I completely agree with you about Seymour, game time and (probably) Glasgow's work ethic have totally changed him as a player, thankfully Scott Johnson hasn't done any arm to his game in the Scotland's squad
He probably wouldn't be the same player as he is today had he stayed at Ulster.

As for the part in bold, i have always had a soft spot for Connacht, the way they have been playing with passion and commitment over the years, despite limited abilities, has always been a treat. Great words

Anyway sorry for the off-topic, should have waited for next week's thread

Hoping for a good match and a decent Edinburgh's performance.

George Carlin wrote:Well written, Pete. Think we are on the same page.

Lots of comparable players between the two team, I think - in terms of talent and where they are in their careers. Henry and Harley, Cave and Dunbar, Olding and Bennett, Ludik and Mr AP, Murphy and Welsh.

Anyway, back to the Tuscany Frequenters v the Men of Ulster.

So last season.

Notch wrote:Whatever happens tonight it will be good to welcome back Alan Solomons again. A lot of the older players owe a hell of a lot to him in terms of the development of their careers, guys of the vintage of Wilson and Bowe et cetera, so I'm sure he'll get a warm reception.

Interesting comment on player development condidering the approach currently being taken with Edinburgh but perhaps Ulster were starting from a different place (i.e. They hadn't just been "Bradley'd").

If I was a Scottish qualified player in the Edinburgh squad I'd be think of adding a "du" or "van der" in my name get myself a shout at the teamsheet - Roddy van der Grant, Jaques du Cuthbert...?

How's the weather? Pishin doon here!

It's been grim all day, but not so bad just now.

well, here we go. SUFTUM!

Good to see we're not the only team to mess up restarts!

These scrums are a mess already

Kennedy poor box kicking again - meant to be one of his strengths!


Poor game so far.

Bowe tackled without ball? Lucky to get away with that...

Very lucky..was the one lineout not to lose ...

We've not had a completed scrum yet.