Scotland squad for autumn tests

First topic message reminder :

The scotland squad for the autumn tests is named on Monday for the three tests in November.

The tests are
Argentina 8th November 5.30pm kick off at Murrayfield

New zealand 15th November 5.30pm kick off at Murrayfield

Tonga 22nd November 2.30pm kick off at rugby park, Kilmarnock

All three tests are going to be very hard and physical, scotland having just beaten argentina in the summer but what was mostly a 2nd/3rd choice argentina team, never having beaten the all blacks and losing to Tonga the last time they played 2 years ago on a dismal day in Aberdeen.

The scotland players will want to put in big performances to impress new coach Vern cotter and the team will also want to put down a marker with games running out before the World Cup.

For me winning the Argentina and Tonga games and putting in a good performance and keeping the all blacks close will be a good series for scotland.
Glasgow have had a great start to the season and will provide a lot of the squad. Edinburgh on the other hand have been poor and probably won't provide too many of the squad. Will fielding the majority of the glasgow first Xv be the way to go with one or two exiles included ?

There will probably be a squad of around 32 to 34 named on Monday.
This would be my squad

Props
Gordon Reid
Al Dickinson
Alex Allan
Euan murray
Geoff cross
Jon Welsh

Props are a little bit of a concern due to injuries and loss of form of some. Jon Welsh returns this weekend for ayr and is expected to play for Glasgow the following week. Geoff cross has just returned from injury aswell and hopefully will get more game time for London Irish as in recent tests he has been very good. The Rev seems to be getting back to good form for Glasgow and will be first choice till the others pick up form.
Loose head is a bit easier, Gordon Reid is in decent form, Al Dickinson has been oneof Edinburghs few form players and alex Allan is getting better and better. Think it will be too early for ryan grant to challenge.

Hookers
Ross ford
Pat maccarthur
Fraser brown

Hooker is a difficult position, not toomany players really pushing on in this position. Ross ford has looked fairly decent this season though still having problems with hooking and the occasional line out blip.
Pat maccarthur has had mixed form and seems to be a rotation system at glasgow with their hookers as all four are pretty equal. Fraser brown has impressed me, very accurate at set piece and is like an extra open side in open play.

Locks
Jonny gray
Richie gray
Grant Gilchrist
Tim Swinson
Lots of good quality locks to choose from but these four are the best on form. The gray brothers are very different players and should compliment each other. Richie is very athletic and strong in the line out, jonny has those qualities but has an added bite about him and really is effective in the breakdown area and is a good leader despite only being 20. Grant Gilchrist has come on leaps and bounds over the last 2 years. A bit of acombination between the gray brothers, athletic but is developing a hard edge which scotland need. Tim Swinson wins the fourth lock spot, playing well at glasgow, not the biggest lock but very powerful and gets through lots of work

Back row

Rob Harley
Kelly brown
Johnnie Beattie
Ally hogg
Blair Cowan
John Barclay

One of Scotland's strongest area if they are played in their correct positions and have the correct combination which is key. Have included ally hogg as he is in great form at Newcastle and deserves a call up. Blair Cowan has been one of the best 7s in the premiership. Been very impressed by him, big tackler, good at winning turnovers, very athletic and gets about the pitch and is good with ball in hand and also has a bit of aggression about him. Rob Harley has been impressive and is the tough niggly player you want from a six. Great line out option and tackles like a demon, also seems to have improved his ball carrying.

Scrum halfs
Chris cusiter
Greig Laidlaw
Scott Steele

A fairly easy pick, cusiter in great form at sale and Laidlaw getting better at glaws especially in the last couple games. Then there is scott steele who has really impressed at London irish. Been probably their key player. Great service and also likes to have ago himself and has created a fair few tries too.

Stand offs
Finn Russell
Duncan weir

No one is really standing out. Weir has been very consistent this season and finn Russell is starting to come into form after a later start to the season. Russell still looks the most all rounded option with a good kicking game, strong passing game and not afraid to have a go himself. Unlucky for ruraidh Jackson as he had looked very impressive at wasps. Tom heathcote has had good moments but still looks a bit short in confidence while Tonks has shifted back to full back.

Centre
Al Dunbar
Mark Bennett
Peter Horne
Duncan Taylor

No options in the centre from edinburgh as they continue to play foreigners so 3 out of the 4 are from glasgow. All 3 are very different players but seem to compliment each other no matter what combo. Duncan Taylor has looked good at Saracens playing mostly at 13 and has won motm a couple times. Struggling slightly with other options with alex grove playing in the championship and nick de Luca playing in d2.

Wing
Sean Maitland
Tommy Seymour
Tim visser
Sean Lamont

Lots of good options to choose from Seymour is getting better each game and looks very sharp and dangerous. Maitland back from injury and an extended break which has probably been a good thing after playing pretty much 3 years without a break. Should be refreshed and certainly looked v sharp scoring an 80 m try for glasgows back up squad. Visser having a mixed season, still sharp in attack but still suspect in defence. A lot of people will disagree with sean Lamont but thought he has been v good for Glasgow and has that added physicality. For me he will be a very good impact sub. Max evans misses out despite being in good form for castres despite their poor start, has scored 2 or 3 times already this season. Dougie fyfe just back from injury and could sneak into the squad but will struggle due to edinburgh spoor form.

Full back

Stuart hogg
Peter murchie

Hogg seems to have recovered from last seasons lions syndrome blip. His attitude seems a lot better and looks a real attacking threat again. Hopefully will kick on even further and will establish himself as one of the top full backs in world rugby. Been doing a lot of work on his goal kicking to get him up to the 80% + mark. Peter murchie in great form at Glasgow as well, very solid in defence and under the high ball and pops up in the right place in attack and is deceptively quick with his long stride. Cuthbert started the season well at edinburgh but has been poor the last few weeksafterhaving to play wing. Tonks has looked ok but not as good as hogg or murchie. Steve MacColl started the season well for glaws but is injured but is one to watch out for in the future .

A year out from the world up scotland need to stop experimenting and trying out new players. They need to play the strongest team so that players are settled and can read each other which only comes with game time together.

For me the strongest lineup would be

1 Gordon Reid
2 Ross ford
3 Euan murray
4 grant Gilchrist
5 jonny gray
6 rob Harley
7 Blair Cowan
8 johnnie Beattie
9 chris cusiter (capt)
10 finn Russell
11 Tommy seymour
12 alex Dunbar
13 mark Bennett
14 sean Maitland
15 stuart hogg

16 Fraser brown
17 Al Dickinson
18 Geoff cross
19 Richie gray
20 kelly brown
21 greg Laidlaw close call with scott Steele
22 Duncan weir but tempted with Horne who is more versatile
23 sean Lamont.

That's my thoughts and my strongest current team but interested to hear others views in what is a real makeor break season for scotland.

Still worried about Gilchrist, particularly when he is the captain. It means he must start. In the Boks game in the summer he carried 10 times and made a grand total of 15 metres. IMO he doesnt have the power or dynamism for  the modern game, maybe in the 1980's but not today. However i an open to persuasion if he dominates the Argentinian pack and schools Sam Whitelock in open play! So, if you play GG and Fusaro (great 7 but not a ball carrier) and Harley (worthy of a start as his defensive work is amazing - but he aint no yard gainer) then you are relying on the other 5 forwards to make all the tough yards. Beattie doesnt put in a full shift either so you are down to around 4 and a half forwards to carry ball.
we struggled against a fairly green argentinian front five in the summer,  if they have their championship front five available then we are really going to struggle to get across the gain line. They will target us for a win on our lovely new pitch and with the width they are now putting on their game i can see it being a really close one. With their potent back three and quick ball it could be a tough day at Scotland's spanking new office.

To be honest I've never thought of Gilchrist lacking power, dynamism or ball carrying abilities. He's not slow either.

My concern has always been that despite the huge potential he sometimes goes missing, or a bit quiet in games. He can sometimes seem passive. Less so recently I think.

I think Weir has sufffered from a few things - some common to other young scots players in pivotal positions. He should have loads of starts by now - instead he has a barely more than a handful. ( from memory) Spent a season sitting on the bench more or less for glasgow, , then the next season a few starts, called up for scotland and sat on the bench instead of playing for Glasgow during the 6N ( got two games). Then injured then back for the 6N and played poorly. Only this season so far has he been a regular starter for Glasgow.

So at 23 he has relatively little experience of starting and is where he should have been 2 years ago. He would have been much better off if we had reserve matches for Glasgow and Edinburgh so could have got more experience or had played more club rugby at a lower level. years back he would be far more experienced by now

Big fan of Weir and have defended him on here a number of times but I think Russell looks a different class of player.  He's composed with ball in hand and seems to play in slow motion, the sign of a quality player.  Plus he looks an intelligent player, knowing when to turn the defence with a chip or play for territory.

Happy to have Weir as a back up but Russell needs all the game time he can get before RWC.

My concern with Gilchrist as captain, is that once again we've got the situation where our captain isn't necessarily first choice in his position.  Jnr Gray is the best Scottish lock i've seen in a decade while his brother still has potential to be world class but at worst will do a very respectable 80 minutes of work.  

Maybe Cotter wants continuity in captaincy while he figures out his best XV.  It's a tough choice, no obvious candidates.  I'd go for Harley.

I honestly hope that they play Russell in the first game.

That way, if he plays well, he has some continuity going into the All Blacks game and he can continue with a little confidence. If he doesn't play well, we can all claim that Weir was always earmarked for the NZ game.

I hate All Blacks games and would play them even more seldom than we do now.

I think the Gilchrist decision comes down to the old chestnut of running the lineout. He's been earmarked for that role, given the job over the summer and has been developing the skills with Edinburgh (anyone who can catch the ball from Ross Ford must be going in the right direction). I probably means that one of the Grays is going to be an impact sub, but they'll be pretty good at that.

Harley would also suffer from the "is he first choice?" problem. Remember that Strauss and Du Preez will both qualify in the next year or two, and Harley has yet to prove more than adequate with ball in hand. He's a storming defensive player and can perform tackle and smash rucks all day long, but so can Strauss and Du Preez, and guess what, both are top class ball carriers as well.

We don't have an obvious solution for the captaincy, and I think Gilchrist is as good a choice as any. Sadly the epic leaders at Edinburgh, Strauss and Coman, don't qualify.

I'd be inclined to agree FES. I'm actually struggling to think of anyone else who could be captain and is a guaranteed starter.

Gilchrist isn't a clear cut starter, but he is the incumbent captain and presumably that's what swayed it for Cotter. In truth very few of the forwards are undoubted first choice picks, which is either testament to our strength in depth or an indication of a mass changing of the guard.

As per my last post, our outside backs are easier to pick, especially in the absence of Matt Scott, but I'm not sure any of them are captain material yet. Hogg anyone?

Perhaps Cotter sees Gilco and Jonny as our Launchbury / Lawes? I'd say that Richie Gray certainly has the all of attributes to be a cracking impact sub, but my worry is that he is also one of our most experienced forwards.

As you say the relationship between Ford and Gilchrist is going to be key. We need our line-out functioning. Full stop. Last season it was an utter joke and became an area that our opponents actually attacked. Another reason to go with Gilchrist.

You also make a good point re Strauss and Du Preez threatening Harley's long term tenure of the 6 shirt. Harley is one of the few nailed on starters this season but perhaps you are right about Cotter thinking he is on borrowed time.

I wonder how Strauss and Du Preez's selection will go down when they qualify. Rumbles of discontent are already apparent.... http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/latest/greig-laidlaw-against-sru-s-project-signings-1-3566122

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think the Gilchrist decision comes down to the old chestnut of running the lineout. He's been earmarked for that role, given the job over the summer and has been developing the skills with Edinburgh (anyone who can catch the ball from Ross Ford must be going in the right direction). I probably means that one of the Grays is going to be an impact sub, but they'll be pretty good at that.

Harley would also suffer from the "is he first choice?" problem. Remember that Strauss and Du Preez will both qualify in the next year or two, and Harley has yet to prove more than adequate with ball in hand. He's a storming defensive player and can perform tackle and smash rucks all day long, but so can Strauss and Du Preez, and guess what, both are top class ball carriers as well.

We don't have an obvious solution for the captaincy, and I think Gilchrist is as good a choice as any. Sadly the epic leaders at Edinburgh, Strauss and Coman, don't qualify.

Du Preez won't be NQ until summer of 2016 but thankfully he's only 24 and has plenty of 'growing time' left. The thought of 6 Du Preez 7 Watson 8 Strauss makes me happy.

I agree that captaincy is a problem simply because so few players are nailed down for a shirt. Only Matt Scott and Stuart Hogg are starters for me and I wouldn't make either of them captain (especially Captain AP). Someone who by all accounts has done well with a captaincy role is young Henners Piecrust but again, I think most people would have him behind Greig and Cus.

I actually think that it's a positive thing to have genuine competition, but only if Cotter chooses sides with a view to solidity and consistency between now and the RWC. There is no more time to urine around (just to preempt the change that this spellcheck will make).

I think Harley actually seems to be getting better with his ball carrying.  He made a decent break at one point during the bath game, showing a surprising turn of pace that I didn’t know he had.  If he can continue working on that then he might be able to nail down the 6 shirt, and whenever anyone talks about him, it’s always about how keen to learn he is, so fingers crossed.  But yes, Strauss is almost certain to get a chance with Scotland and Du Preez may as well.  But given Strauss and Harley play in the same side most weeks, and Du Preez has 2-3 more years before he’s in contention for Scotland, it might not be an issue.  

Also I didn’t know Harley was born in Crewe!  Mind you I have taken that info from Wikipedia (was checking his age) so could be a load of toss.

It would be a crying shame if a really good player like Harley was displaced by Strauss or Du Preez. What kind of signal does that send to young players who aspire to be internationalists one day?

"Sure, we'll bring you up through the age grades and get you ready for international rugby, but if we can find a player who is better than you, anywhere in the world, we'll sign them up as a project player and drop you as soon as they become eligable"

Where is the motivation for the youngsters going to go?

I actually agree with you Tattie, but we have to remember that the problem comes from the IRB rules which lets this happen to any international player. The bottom line is that the people who are the best players should start and I always have to remind myself that it's not actually the fault of the project players who want to play - they don't create the system, they just have to work within in.

I've always thought it was possible that we punters are more sensitive about this than the players themselves. These guys spend their entire working lives in direct competition with their friends and colleagues and are pretty used to it by now, unpleasant though it is. I think that they have to accept it from a pretty young age. If someone didn't like auditioning for things, then nobody would recommend that they become an actor because that's at least 60% of what the job is.

Personally I think Strauss and Du Preez should be fighting it out for the 8 spot - they're much more effective there than at 6.

Saying that, if we have 4 top class options at 8 and only 1 or 2 at 6, they might be used there. Also, Du Preez is likely to be at 6 with Denton at 8 for Edinburgh.

No Kelly Brown? Crazy.

Scotland have messed Brown around a lot.

Surprised Duncan Taylor is in there when he's not a Saracens starter. Good player but I wouldn't even have him a Saracens 23 at the moment.

No surprise that Hamilton isn't there - he's struggling for gametime also but has an opportunity to set down a marker vs Munster.

More front row concerns in that Geoff Cross isn't even listed in the LI squad for their game this week.

He's going to be desperately short of match fitness.

tigertattie wrote:It would be a crying shame if a really good player like Harley was displaced by Strauss or Du Preez. What kind of signal does that send to young players who aspire to be internationalists one day?

I agree, particularly at the World Cup for example where the spectre of Strauss being in the squad without ever having played for Scotland looms large.

I did raise the point last year though, and the soap dodgers spat out their special brew in disgust at the thought that Strauss wouldn't be an immediate automatic first choice player for Scotland and have immediate entry into the World Cup squad, most likely displacing one of Strokosch, Brown, Harley, Denton or Beattie.

beshocked wrote:  No Kelly Brown? Crazy.

Scotland have messed Brown around a lot.

Surprised Duncan Taylor is in there when he's not a Saracens starter. Good player but I wouldn't even have him a Saracens 23 at the moment.

No surprise that Hamilton isn't there - he's struggling for gametime also but has an opportunity to set down a marker vs Munster.

I think we're all surprised about Kelly Brown. Keiran Low (and Strokosch, who is currently playing 2nd division rugby in France) isn't in the same class.

Taylor is there because Matt Scott is injured. There's a lack of depth at centre for Scotland. Edinburgh currently has NSQ players at 10, 12 and 13, which leaves Glasgow and the Exiles to fill the void.

I've always been a fan of Big Jim, but we have better locks to choose from these days.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

tigertattie wrote:It would be a crying shame if a really good player like Harley was displaced by Strauss or Du Preez. What kind of signal does that send to young players who aspire to be internationalists one day?

I agree, particularly at the World Cup for example where the spectre of Strauss being in the squad without ever having played for Scotland looms large.

I did raise the point last year though, and the soap dodgers spat out their special brew in disgust at the thought that Strauss wouldn't be an immediate automatic first choice player for Scotland and have immediate entry into the World Cup squad, most likely displacing one of Strokosch, Brown, Harley, Denton or Beattie.

Or to put it another way, a Currie Cup winning captain and mainstay/often captain of the strongest of the Scottish franchises 'displacing' someone who no longer plays first division rugby, someone who does not feature in the current Scotland squad, someone whom you've said is not particularly strong at carrying, someone who cares more about his hair than about hitting rucks or someone who has never recaptured his best form of 2009.

Not really that crazy, is it?

It isn't crazy, but it relates to the point made by Tattie above. It is possible that, for example, Rob Harley or Kelly Brown could lose his place in the World Cup squad to someone who has never put on a Scotland jersey. In terms of ability that may well be the correct rugby decision, notwithstanding the fact that Strauss won't have played for Scotland before, but I do think it could cause issues with some of the other players. Not the fact that Strauss plays for Scotland, but that fact that he could go straight into the World Cup squad, a once in a four year opportunity, without having played international rugby.

I'm not saying I wouldn't do just that if I were Cotter, the IRB rules are there and each national coach should maximise his squad within those rules, but I do think there's a distinct issue with players like Nel and Strauss dropping straight into the World Cup squad.

Still, he's a Glasgow player and World Class, so as long as another Glasgow player doesn't lose his place we should be OK.

funnyExiledScot wrote:It isn't crazy, but it relates to the point made by Tattie above. It is possible that, for example, Rob Harley or Kelly Brown could lose his place in the World Cup squad to someone who has never put on a Scotland jersey. In terms of ability that may well be the correct rugby decision, notwithstanding the fact that Strauss won't have played for Scotland before, but I do think it could cause issues with some of the other players. Not the fact that Strauss plays for Scotland, but that fact that he could go straight into the World Cup squad, a once in a four year opportunity, without having played international rugby.

I'm not saying I wouldn't do just that if I were Cotter, the IRB rules are there and each national coach should maximise his squad within those rules, but I do think there's a distinct issue with players like Nel and Strauss dropping straight into the World Cup squad.

Still, he's a Glasgow player and World Class, so as long as another Glasgow player doesn't lose his place we should be OK.

Not worthy of you, that last remark.

I simply do not understand the logic as to why World Cup matches need a different consideration of a player's merits than any other international match. Why is this, exactly? It's a matter of straightforward circumstance that this might be Strauss' first game. To what other 'incumbent' Scottish players should we also extent what is a staggering advantage in removing the 'merit based' part from team selection? Just those in competition to Strauss? Or others? What about Michael Cusack if he's fit by then and hasn't yet played? 

Mark Bennett doesn't have any caps at the moment either and has been involved with Glasgow no longer than Strauss. By the same rationale, presumably you don't want Bennett taking any caps from an incumbent like Horne or Dunbar in the upcoming Autumn tests?

I don't really get all the angst about this. It does seem to be a particularly Scottish thing. The English are not up in arms over the fact that the Fijian winger has come into their squad ahead of Strettle, Ashton and Wade nor were they bothered about all the other members of their multi national team!

The French are at it as well now, with Kockott likely to make his debut this autumn, again it does not seem to be causing any grief. The only issue the Irish seem to have about Jareed Payne is whether he plays at centre or full back! Lets not even start on NZ and Oz.

Strauss has done his time. He has been a popular and successful member of the Glasgow team and all the other players know he will qualify. He is not depriving anyone of a place, that implies that they have it as a god given thing. We also need depth in all of these positions, we should not be thinking about 3 or 4 good back row players, we need 7 or 8, it is one of the most attricious positions on the pitch.

Some players will miss the world cup through injury, some through form, some because they are not picked. No one ever said professional sport was fair. The three year qualification period is what it is. Three years is actually a long time in the career of a professional rugby player, who can be one injury away from the end of a career every time they play.

People have changed allegiances in rugby since time and memorial, including some Scotland greats, some players have even played for two international teams, which is even more wrong!

I would rather have a player like Strauss any day, who has settled here, who the fans know and love and gives it 100% week in week out for his club here; over someone who comes straight off a plane with a Scottish Granny.

Surely as long as he wants to make the commitment to Scotland and will play for the jersey is what matters and I have no doubt that he will give 110% for that. It is not just about Josh Strauss either, De Preez and Nel are in the same boat for Edinburgh and if they are good enough should get picked!

BigGee wrote:I don't really get all the angst about this. It does seem to be a particularly Scottish thing. The English are not up in arms over the fact that the Fijian winger has come into their squad ahead of Strettle, Ashton and Wade nor were they bothered about all the other members of their multi national team!

They might be if his first international match, his debut, came against Australia in the World Cup group match and he qualified to play for England three weeks prior. In fact I'm almost certain they would.

I do think there is a huge difference between imports such as Denton and Lineen - who have made their lives here and Laney - who only came to play rugby and went away again as soon as he was dropped. the problem is telling which one is which at the start of their time

George Carlin wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:It isn't crazy, but it relates to the point made by Tattie above. It is possible that, for example, Rob Harley or Kelly Brown could lose his place in the World Cup squad to someone who has never put on a Scotland jersey. In terms of ability that may well be the correct rugby decision, notwithstanding the fact that Strauss won't have played for Scotland before, but I do think it could cause issues with some of the other players. Not the fact that Strauss plays for Scotland, but that fact that he could go straight into the World Cup squad, a once in a four year opportunity, without having played international rugby.

I'm not saying I wouldn't do just that if I were Cotter, the IRB rules are there and each national coach should maximise his squad within those rules, but I do think there's a distinct issue with players like Nel and Strauss dropping straight into the World Cup squad.

Still, he's a Glasgow player and World Class, so as long as another Glasgow player doesn't lose his place we should be OK.

Not worthy of you, that last remark.

I simply do not understand the logic as to why World Cup matches need a different consideration of a player's merits than any other international match. Why is this, exactly? It's a matter of straightforward circumstance that this might be Strauss' first game. To what other 'incumbent' Scottish players should we also extent what is a staggering advantage in removing the 'merit based' part from team selection? Just those in competition to Strauss? Or others? What about Michael Cusack if he's fit by then and hasn't yet played? 

Mark Bennett doesn't have any caps at the moment either and has been involved with Glasgow no longer than Strauss. By the same rationale, presumably you don't want Bennett taking any caps from an incumbent like Horne or Dunbar in the upcoming Autumn tests?

GC - teams and players spend time preparing for a World Cup. Just look at the angst on the English and Welsh threads at the moment discussing partnerships and making sure all the WC squad are appropriately tested and capped at international level in time for the World Cup. The reason why the World Cup merits different consideration to a random AI is because it is more important. More important to fans and to players. "Judge me on the World Cup" and all that. This is why I feel that granting a player his debut in the World Cup is different to granting a player his debut in a normal AIs, particularly if that debut is to a project player qualifying on residency grounds. Whilst I may not care particularly (and I genuinely have no issue with coaches selecting within the IRB rules), I'm certain some of the home grown players will. It's their life and their career after all, and someone like Harley who has worked his way tirelessly through the ranks in Scotland could in my view feel rightly miffed to perform well in the 6 Nations only to lose out on a close call to Strauss come the World Cup.

The rationale on Bennett is different for the reasons set out above. Every player has to make a debut, and Bennett thoroughly deserves his in the AIs, but as I say, I do think the World Cup carries a different status amongst fans and players, which may be why you don't see the top rugby nations often granting players debuts in the World Cup. In fact I wonder how often that has happened, which kind of makes my point for me.

Still, I'm attributing opinions to other people and perhaps Harley, Brown, Denton or whoever won't care about losing out to a player who hasn't played for Scotland yet. I just think it's a topic that may ruffle some feathers. Again, I would not criticise Cotter for doing it. Our back row may once again be schooled throughout the 6 Nations and Strauss could be just the ticket. That fact that Strauss is such a high quality operator probably makes this easier to judge for Cotter (and easier for the player missing out). If it were Nel being included in place of say Geoff Cross, with Cotter admitting it as a close call, then I suspect the reaction may be different.

TJ wrote:I do think there is a huge difference between imports such as Denton and Lineen - who have made their lives here and Laney - who only came to play rugby and went away again as soon as he was dropped.  the problem is telling which one is which at the start of their time

I'm not sure I agree on that. If a player qualifies then I have no issue ordinarily with selection. I'll cheer on Visser as readily as Fife or Lamont.

My point is really a specific one about the World Cup, and whether in these particular circumstances with Nel and Strauss it's appropriate for project players to be parachuted straight into the World Cup squad.

I'll keep saying it. Were I Cotter I'd pick the best group possible, and short of a dramatic change of form, that would include Strauss. I'm just saying that I wouldn't rule out certain members of the squad reacting badly to the decision, not about Strauss in particular, but in principle.

I would imagine that their will be a lot of disappointed players who don't get selected for the world cup squad. In fact I would find it strange if they did not, professional sportsmen are generally a competitive breed and all want to play.

At the end of the day though, the final reason for them not making the squad is that they have not made their case and the coach thinks that he has better options. Unfortunately there will always be people who will be left out. At least in rugby a squad is selected, so there is always more than one chance. In single event sports, boxing in the Olympics for example you really are on your own.

George Carlin wrote:If someone didn't like auditioning for things, then nobody would recommend that they become an actor because that's at least 60% of what the job is.

Exactly. That's why I turned my back on the RSC.

Those bitches couldn't handle the skills of a real ac-TOR.

It's a difficult one and I'm well and truly torn, firstly I despise the project player policy and everything it stands for it's a cheap, short term fix. It also shows severe flaws, when other nations are producing players better than our internationals then we have to look at our academy system rather than abroad especially when project players tend to make their debuts between 26-30. Having said that there is no point cutting your nose off to spite your face if Strauss and Du Preez are available then why not use them, yes there's the argument that it sets a bad precedent to young rugby players, this is true but not nearly as bad as being badly beaten for the sake of it. Also the argument that it's not fair if Strauss comes in for the world cup because it will be unfair on other players doesn't ring true with me they are all grown men and David Denton isn't exactly William Wallace himself and Johnnie Beattie plays in France, to say it will put off young kids when a guy they can watch week in week out gets picked is a bit far fetched. The other players also know he will become available and should raise their game accordingly it's not like he'll sneak up on them. I do however understand the points that FES raises but it all comes back down, as most issues do, to the SRU, if we had a decent system at age grade producing players better than those who can't get in to the South African and New Zealand squads then it wouldn't be an issue and also if this farce had not been introduced in the first place, but don't make the mistake of blaming the "project players" themselves or call them "mercenaries", as Greig of Gloucester, does. If you were offered an enormous sum of money by the Romanian to play for three years and then go to the world cup would you not go?

123456789 wrote:It's a difficult one and I'm well and truly torn, firstly I despise the project player policy and everything it stands for it's a cheap, short term fix. It also shows severe flaws, when other nations are producing players better than our internationals then we have to look at our academy system rather than abroad especially when project players tend to make their debuts between 26-30. Having said that there is no point cutting your nose off to spite your face if Strauss and Du Preez are available then why not use them, yes there's the argument that it sets a bad precedent to young rugby players, this is true but not nearly as bad as being badly beaten for the sake of it. Also the argument that it's not fair if Strauss comes in for the world cup because it will be unfair on other players doesn't ring true with me they are all grown men and David Denton isn't exactly William Wallace himself and Johnnie Beattie plays in France, to say it will put off young kids when a guy they can watch week in week out gets picked is a bit far fetched. The other players also know he will become available and should raise their game accordingly it's not like he'll sneak up on them. I do however understand the points that FES raises but it all comes back down, as most issues do, to the SRU, if we had a decent system at age grade producing players better than those who can't get in to the South African and New Zealand squads then it wouldn't be an issue and also if this farce had not been introduced in the first place, but don't make the mistake of blaming the "project players" themselves or call them "mercenaries", as Greig of Gloucester, does. If you were offered an enormous sum of money by the Romanian to play for three years and then go to the world cup would you not go?

You can't just blame this all on the SRU, albeit that I do completely accept that we have struggled to bring on young players. A lot of that is about the numbers game, the lack of children doing any kind of sport, let alone rugby and the well documented struggles we have had with getting professional rugby fully established in Scotland. Thankfully there are some signs that we are starting to get there. We still have a long way to go though.

Unions with far more money and resources than ours in England, France, Ireland and in the southern hemisphere do it without a thought and they all have a good established academy mechanism with proven track records of bringing through young players. At the end of the day we can't get away from the fact that rugby is a global game now and it is probably all the better as a spectacle for that. It is however a massive driver for the movement of players.

Scotland, as in most things regarding professional rugby have been late on the game on this front as well. We could well have done with a few experienced players with a southern hemisphere background over the past few years when we have been rank awful and barely competitive.

A sense of perspective is required here though, as it could appear from reading this that we are importing players left right and centre. We are not, there are only three genuine project players as far as I am aware in Strauss, Nel and Du Preez and we have not brought in any more this year. None of the other southern hemisphere players at Edinburgh are ever likely to play for Scotland, either being to old or just not good enough and were not recruited with that in mind.

There was no doubt when the genuine project players were recruited that both club sides were in need of some extra oomph and these players provide that. The jury is still a little bit out on Nel, but he was recruited in a position that we have been chronically short in. it would be hard to find anyone though who would say that that Strauss and Du Preez have not been rip roaring successes. Nel as well, though mercurial, has certainly had his moments.

Strauss has been fortunate to come into a successful team. I am sure however that at times last season, Du Preez wondered what on earth he had let himself in for but yet he kept showing what he was worth. If any of these players end up getting capped and there is no guarantee of that, after a hard three years in the trenches, then they will have earnt it.

Good to see Denton returning this week, and he's even setting his sights on the All Blacks! I suspect it will be too soon for him, but he was our standout player against them when we last played (putting McCaw on his backside at one point) so I'm sure he'd be raring to go.

I can't see 30 minutes tonight and a full game next week being enough gametime to a) earn his spot in the team and b) get the required match fitness

“It was never a feasible option [to play against Argentina] unless I had come back a week early,” said Denton, who is making a return from a concussion lay-off and subsequent hamstring tear. “It’s not worth the risk me coming back and if I did this again, suddenly I’m looking at the Six Nations and thinking ‘Is that going to be an option?’

“Getting back into the Scotland squad is huge for me – playing for my country is the biggest thing you can do. But at the moment I’m looking into coming off the bench [for Edinburgh] hopefully for 30-40 minutes. If I can get a good shift in there, suddenly you start looking towards the New Zealand game.

“The plan has been to come back gradually, but I feel ready. I’ve had about a month of solid pre-season. I feel in very good physical shape,” he continued. “The Leinster game at the end of last season, I picked up a pretty severe concussion. At the time I didn’t think it was too bad, but I got ruled out of the summer tour with Scotland.

“They sent me away on an extended break to recover. Then on my second day of pre-season, it had been ten weeks since I had trained and I tore my hamstring. I think it was a bit of a shock to my body, from doing nothing for a period of time.”

I agree, not long enough to get up to speed, and Beattie is fully fit by all accounts. He's coming under the radar a bit these days Beattie, but remember that storming try against Ireland in the 6 Nations? He was also the star component of the Killer Bs for a while as well. I know we probably won't need him in the World Cup with Strauss coming through, but I'd like him to get back a bit of the old mojo. On form Beattie is an excellent number 8, and a good lineout jumper as well don't forget.

Denton should focus on getting fully fit with Edinburgh, schooling Strauss in the 1872 games and then performing in the 6 Nations. He shouldn't rush back into the AIs.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I agree, not long enough to get up to speed, and Beattie is fully fit by all accounts. He's coming under the radar a bit these days Beattie, but remember that storming try against Ireland in the 6 Nations? He was also the star component of the Killer Bs for a while as well. I know we probably won't need him in the World Cup with Strauss coming through, but I'd like him to get back a bit of the old mojo. On form Beattie is an excellent number 8, and a good lineout jumper as well don't forget.

Denton should focus on getting fully fit with Edinburgh, schooling Strauss in the 1872 games and then performing in the 6 Nations. He shouldn't rush back into the AIs.

The 1872 - The Beard v. The Bouffant. Says it all really. And I know which my money would be on!

Not sure the odds will be very good!!

Been away for a bit, so my tuppence worth is a bit late.

However.

Gilchrist as captain, I think he earned the right to carry on after the summer. He has been very consistent and is evidently showing the managment a lot at training. Guys like the Grays and Swinson arguably seem to have more impact but Gilchrist clearly has something that Vern Cotter likes. He has also not done much wrong for Scotland thusfar in his career.

Brown's ommision is a weird one. Especially since Strokosch isn't really playing top level rugby. Barclay's ommison is baffling quite frankly. By some distance he has been our best openside.

Laidlaw has been taking some pelters, about his slow service. Watch him plying Hook and 36 with some fantastic ball and that should alleviate fears. It's up to the coaches to give Laidlaw a carte blanche and allow him to play his game without worrying about anyone else. Do that and you'll get the service you want from him.

Finally Lamont at the centre, I really thought we were past this.

Apart from that. Fairly happy.

funnyExiledScot wrote:It isn't crazy, but it relates to the point made by Tattie above. It is possible that, for example, Rob Harley or Kelly Brown could lose his place in the World Cup squad to someone who has never put on a Scotland jersey. In terms of ability that may well be the correct rugby decision, notwithstanding the fact that Strauss won't have played for Scotland before, but I do think it could cause issues with some of the other players. Not the fact that Strauss plays for Scotland, but that fact that he could go straight into the World Cup squad, a once in a four year opportunity, without having played international rugby.

I'm not saying I wouldn't do just that if I were Cotter, the IRB rules are there and each national coach should maximise his squad within those rules, but I do think there's a distinct issue with players like Nel and Strauss dropping straight into the World Cup squad.

Still, he's a Glasgow player and World Class, so as long as another Glasgow player doesn't lose his place we should be OK.

Ouch - -it this the real reason?

Not at all. I'd feel the same with Du Preez, and he's even better than Strauss....

For those that didn't follow the Edinburgh game last night, 3 players pulled out before the game started and 5 players went off in the first 30 minutes.

Of those players, Grant Gilchrist is the biggest concern, but the list also includes Dickinson, Watson and fife.

Gilchrist seems to be a bit cursed, injured last night and some suggestions of broken bones. Are we going to need a new second row and captain?

Edinburgh sure took a physical hammering last night, talk that Watson broke his jaw and Grant his cheek bone as well. They are going to really struggle for players now!

So did anyone manage to get world cup tickets

I got none, and am yet to hear from someone who actually managed to get any!

I got 2 tickets for the Samoa game. Its a bit like the Olympics and Commonwealth games all over again. My wife being Italian, we applied for 2 Italy and 2 Scotland games. I guess given the massive demand 1 out of 4 is not so bad.

There may well be more tickets still, that they could not match up to the prices that people requested. Unfortunately the bad news on that front is that they are likely to be the more expensive ones.

0/4 on the ticketing front.
Now to decide whether to spend an arm and a leg on pricey tickets for the Samoa game.

Real shame for Gilchrist if he misses out on the AIs.

However, luckily the second-row is a position of strength for us.  Would expect Hamilton to get called up to the squad as a direct replacement.  (Possibly Brown if Low is considered a second-row?)

If Gilchrist is injured, surely we're going to see the Gray brothers together.

Was watching a bit of the Sarries game last night and Big Jim was certainly putting himself about a bit with great enthusiasm and varied degrees of success. He ended up with a very nasty cut under his eye and a shiner for his trouble.

You get what it says on the tin with Hamilton and he won't let you down. He is probably not the kind of lock that Scotland want if they want to play the fast paced game though. Gray and Gray I imagine it will be now, with maybe Johnny stepping up to captain. Swinson will bench.

Johnny Beattie might be the other candidate to skip the team, he lead Montpellier a few times last season. A little bit worried that he is not in the Castre team just now though, unless he is injured.

No tickets for me, and I applied for both the Newcastle fixtures. I don't mind losing out provided proper rugby fans got the tickets. I'm deeply sceptical.

Big Jim joins the squad to replace Gilchrist. No announcement on captaincy yet.

Big Jim is the right choice to replace Gilchrist. What about Alex Dunbar for stand in skipper? Slightly left field choice, but I don't think Ross Ford deserves it and I don't think it should be one of the scrum halves as they should all have game time.

Big Jemima was mad for it against Munster - he had to come off at half time to get 7 stitches in a head wound.

George Carlin wrote:Big Jemima was mad for it against Munster - he had to come off at half time to get 7 stitches in a head wound.

He tweeted a picture of it, looked nasty, right under his eye!

Actually I did get two tickets to the Samoa game apparently. No notification and my bank isn't showing the debit but there's a tick next to my application status on the website.

I take it all back. This is a robust and entirely sensible ticketing process....

I got tickets for the Samoa match.

I've tweeted the RWC account to ask what proportion of their tickets have been earmarked for corporate partners and travel agents, not that I expect a response.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Actually I did get two tickets to the Samoa game apparently. No notification and my bank isn't showing the debit but there's a tick next to my application status on the website.

I take it all back. This is a robust and entirely sensible ticketing process....

Don't think the money is coming out till the beginning of November. Anyway well done on getting the tickets, that aught to be the play off for the second group place, but then again!