England 38 man squad

First topic message reminder :

With the squad set to be selected on Wednesday, I'd be interested to see what players people would like to see included.
This would be my squad in no particular order...

01: J.Marler (Quins) A.Waller (Saints) M.Mullan (Wasps)*
02: R.Webber (Bath) D.Hartley (Saints) J.Gray (Quins)
03: D.Wilson (Bath) H.Thomas (Bath) K.Brookes (Newcastle)
04: J.Launchberry (Wasps) G.Kitchener (Leicester)
05: D.Attwood (Bath) C.Lawes (Saints)
06. T.Wood (Saints) J.Haskell (Wasps)
07. C.Robshaw (Quins) W.Fraser (Saracens) M.Kvesic (Gloucester)*
08: B.Vunipola (Saracens) B.Morgan (Gloucester)

Injured: Corbisiero, Vunipola, Youngs, Cole, Slater, Parling, Croft, Garvey, Fearns, Johnson, Dickinson.

09: D.Care (Quins) B.Youngs (Leicester) L.Dickson (Saints)
10: D.Cipriani (Sale) G.Ford (Bath) O.Farrell (Saracens)
11. M.Yarde (Irish) A.Watson (Bath)
12. B.Barritt (Saracens) K.Eastmond (Bath) B.Twelvetrees (Gloucester)*
13. L.Burrell (Saints) J.Joseph (Bath)
14. S.Rokodeguni (Bath) C.Ashton (Saracens)*
15. M.Brown (Quins) B.Foden (Saints) A.Goode (Saracens)

Injured: Allen, Tuilagi, Trinder.

*Marler isn't having the most consistent seasons, whilst Waller is thriving for Saints in Corbisiero's absence. I could see him pressing Marler for a spot in the test XV

*The back row is our most competitive area. With all 5 of our flanker options the official 7's for their clubs; Quins, Saints, Saracens, Wasps and Gloucester respectively. I expect to see Fraser or Kvesic given a starting birth against Samoa.

*I reluctantly picked Twelvetrees, due to his ineffectiveness against better sides. However, Lancaster has faith in him so i'll give him the spot. If Eastmond is fully fit, his form merits a starting position.

*The wings are very open. There are a number of players who must be close to selection including May (LW) Strettle (LW) Sharples (RW) Nowell (RW) and Wade (RW) Chris Ashton really is in the last chance saloon.

This would be my XV to play New Zealand in the first test. Subs in brackets.

01. J.Marler (A.Waller)
02. D.Hartley (R.Webber)
03. D.Wilson (H.Thomas)
04. J.Launchberry (C.Lawes)
05. D.Attwood
06. T.Wood (J.Haskell)
07. C.Robshaw
08. B.Vunipola
09. D.Care (B.Youngs)
10. O.Farrell (D.Cipriani)
11. A.Watson
12. L.Burrell (K.Eastmond)
13. J.Joseph
14. C.Ashton
15. M.Brown

This would be my XV to play Samoa. Mostly squad players to be given a chance. Subs in brackets.

01. A.Waller (M.Mullan)
02. R.Webber (J.Gray)
03. H.Thomas (K.Brookes)
04. C.Lawes (G.Kitchener)
05. D.Attwood
06. J.Haskell
07. W.Fraser (M.Kvesic)
08. B.Morgan
09. B.Youngs (L.Dickson)
10. G.Ford (D.Cipriani)
11. M.Yarde
12. K.Eastmond
13. J.Joseph
14. S.Rokodeguni
15. B.Foden (A.Goode)

On a brighter note RokoD is apparently starting on the wing too so should bring some fireworks!

yappysnap wrote:So the Telegraph report it'll be Barratt at 13 with Eastmond at 12.

Genuinely not sure how I feel about that, on the one hand I understand they want his defence and in particular his defensive leadership which was massively lacking in the third test against the AB's in the summer.

On the other he has a worse attacking skill set then Manu or JJ, he's slower, less physical, hasn't got a step and while he can pass it's pretty rare that he does.

Eastmond at 12 is a good thing but he's just missed a week of contact drills because of the rib injury, will he be fit? Tackling at 12 even with Barrett to help is a physical job, will he even last the game? Ignoring his defence he's going to have his work cut out for him on attack, with Brad at 13 and potentially Farrell (not my pick as he was well off the pace but the coaches favourite) at 10 he's going to be the fulcrum of England's backline play, is he ready and able to do that?

After Eastmond's performance in the 3rd Test I'm not surprised that SL wants Barritt alongside him. The centres remain a mess, and because of injuries they won't be settled this AI. What I'd like to see by the end of the AIs is for the FH and first choice wingers to be established, leaving the 6 Nations to sort out the centre combination.

Personally I'd like to see Haskell at 7, and Clark or Ewers at 6, but Robshaw will be the Captain until after the WC, barring injury or significant loss of form, and I don't think Wood, Robshaw, Vunipola is a bad backrow.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:

This is very simplistic analysis. All you've done is take the headline figure of 700 magic caps and completely failed to understand what lies beneath.

The fact that the coaching in general has been average especially in terms of a winning stratergy means that there is no real prescient understanding and therefore target for the players/team to aim for or achieve.

Lancaster dosn't really have an understanding of where he's going and even if he thinks he does, he dosn't actually know how to really drive the bus to get there.

So the best record in the NH over the last three years is average, just about every other poster on here agrees Lancaster has a strategy, they may not agree with it, but they acknowledge that he has one.

He has no direction ( well not as good as a bus drivers anyway), he stated clearly when he took over that 2015 was probably too soon for the young squad he was assembling, 2019 was when he though they would be at their best.

He seems to ahead of target, despite the injury problems that have hampered continuity within the squad, ranked 3rd in the world; beaten the AB, took then close in 2 out of 3 in NZ with a weakened side; beaten Australia more times than not home and away. Only SA remain to be beaten by this very young squad.

By contemporary comparison, few have a better record when building from scratch or even from an established side.

I think what you saying is reasonably fare, but the point is that its not good enough. Very simply it is obvious to me that my expectation is set far higher than the majority.

Set far higher or unrealistic?

kingelderfield wrote:
I think what you saying is reasonably fare, but the point is that its not good enough. Very simply it is obvious to me that my expectation is set far higher than the majority.

It is obvious to me that your expectation is set far ahead of the quality of players available. Put simply our players are far too lacking in basic skills and just not as good as people claim.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Set far higher or unrealistic?

Honestly I think if Wayne Smith (or a coach of his ability) had taken the role then we would have seen many different outcomes.

LondonTiger wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:
I think what you saying is reasonably fare, but the point is that its not good enough. Very simply it is obvious to me that my expectation is set far higher than the majority.

It is obvious to me that your expectation is set far ahead of the quality of players available. Put simply our players are far too lacking in basic skills and just not as good as people claim.

Its a very good point. However I do believe if we organised ourselves better in terms of performance management - number of games etc., I honestly don't think the elite players should play any more than 15 club games + finals a season - and thus gave our players a better chance, as well as coaches/coaching of the highest order, then once again we would be entering a no excuse enviroment where team work, stratergy etc. could be realised.

So are our players good enough? Some of them yes but I believe we must maximise the potential from the resources we do have and I don't think we can honestly say we do that now.

kingelderfield wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Set far higher or unrealistic?

Honestly I think if Wayne Smith (or a coach of his ability) had taken the role then we would have seen many different outcomes.

Wayne Smith wouldn't magic better players from nowhere, we're a top 3 side but don't have the players to really trouble NZ.

Lancaster is doing a great job with the players available.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Set far higher or unrealistic?

Honestly I think if Wayne Smith (or a coach of his ability) had taken the role then we would have seen many different outcomes.

Wayne Smith wouldn't magic better players from nowhere, we're a top 3 side but don't have the players to really trouble NZ.

Lancaster is doing a great job with the players available.

I didn't mention magic.

I simply believe that Wayne Smith is a better coach. Actually I think his record suggests that to be the case.

Now if you believe Stewart Lancaster is better, well that's your opinion. However I would be surprised if many agreed with you.

Well records would suggest SL is a better Int coach.

You still haven't commented on how Smith would find better players?!?!

Smith is a more experienced coach than SL. I'm not sure how kingelderfield knows he's the better coach or, in particular, would do a better job as England Head Coach.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well records would suggest SL is a better Int coach.

You still haven't commented on how Smith would find better players?!?!

 Don't see how you can say that Smith has won the world cup, 2 Super rugby titles.

 Lancaster has never won a major trophy in any competition in his coaching career.

 Lancaster could crap his pants and the media would say it was a genius move.

 Lancaster doesn't take Risk (other than put players out of position) and doesn't get the results.

 Has only played Robshaw @ 7 for every game bar one for Haskell. Even NZ in that space of time gave Cane and Todd caps at 7 over probably the best 7 in world rugby and Captain of the most successful international team in modern history.

Launchbury out of the series apparently.

What has Smith done as an Int head coach???

SL has beat NZ, Aus, Wales etc etc, just falling short of a Grand slam last 6N.

I'll think you'll find Kvesic has also played 7. What's the point playing other players if nobody is good enough?? Fraser is usually injured & Kvesic hasnt impressed,

I'm not sure what else he could have done tbh, we have very few world class players....

Launchbury out of the whole series. Attwood and Lawes it is.

Kruis is a million miles from being an Int lock.

I'm sure Wayne Smith could magic a top lock from his behind though.

Kitchener will be brought up i'm guessing.

 I rate him more than Kruis anyway ATM.

Yeh Kitchener has been called up

Oh how I wish KE would stick to his own thread. As for Wayne Smith, well, short term he might have won an extra game here or there, but one of the biggest things in Lancaster's favour is that he knows a great deal about all of the youth set ups, and its unlikely that anyone else could successfully bring young players as well as he has.

It was always a long term game for Lancaster.

Wayne Smith didn't want the top job as advertised anyway, and then decided against joining Lancaster's staff later on. Fail to see what the point of that discussion is.

Back in the cage.

Just remembered - isn't Attwood expecting a child imminently? We could end up with Kruis and Kitchener both in the 23.

Thought he had put a bit of weight on. Assumed it was in the gym.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Thought he had put a bit of weight on. Assumed it was in the gym.

who - or what - is the daddy?

Dave Wilson?

Joe Launchbury out for 8 weeks with nerve irritation in neck. Kitchener called into squad. Attwood due to start now.
This for me is the biggest loss to England through injury so far.
Joe's workrate is unequalled at lock & we will miss his tackling & turnovers.
Real shame.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Joe Launchbury out for 8 weeks with nerve irritation in neck. Kitchener called into squad. Attwood due to start now.
This for me is the biggest loss to England through injury so far.
Joe's workrate is unequalled at lock & we will miss his tackling & turnovers.
Real shame.

On the plus side, it's a proper chance to see how Attwood goes and build up his experience.

London Irish hooker David Paice has been added to the squad for the start of the week as cover for Dylan Hartley and Rob Webber.
Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/246427.html#LjeTUbe3s8Lt2OEh.99

I would have peferred one of the younger generation to have been given the opportunity. Obviously though they won't be familiar with the england structures etc.

This is getting ridiculous, so that is:

Alex Corbisiero
Mako Vunipola
Dan Cole
Tom Youngs
Joe Launchbury
Ed Slater
Geoff Parling
Tom Croft
Manu Tuilagi

Plus Luther Burrell and James Haskell are looking have been injured/sick. Any I've missed?

Mind you, I'm still optimistic that England can put in some performances and get some results.

Cumbrian wrote:This is getting ridiculous, so that is:

Alex Corbisiero
Mako Vunipola
Dan Cole
Tom Youngs
Joe Launchbury
Ed Slater
Geoff Parling
Tom Croft
Manu Tuilagi

.

Is it co-incidence that 7 of those 9 were on the Lions tour?

Talking about things in the Rugby Paper yesterday the new chairman of the RPA, Christian Day, was quite explicit that the lack of proper recovery time due to the Lions tour had created a lot of fatigued bodies that then became injured ones. A discussion for another thread, but he then stated that the players would consider striking if a season with proper breks was not introduced while highlighting the increasing number of players forced into early retirement. (Of course if playing fewer games they may well have to accept lower salaries)

Sgt_Pooly wrote:...I'll think you'll find Kvesic has also played 7. What's the point playing other players if nobody is good enough??....

The point of playing someone other than Robshaw is to find out whether we still function as a team when he's not playing

Aside from the Argentina tour, when Robshaw was rested, we've never had the opportunity to see how anyone else goes at seven. We are betting our World Cup chances on Robshaw staying fit, which seems unnecessary to me. It's not enough to know that Haskell, Wood and Clark can play seven, it's whether they can do so for this England team and keep us competitive. If we aren't convinced by Kvesic when he's supposed to be a specialist, then there's a chance the others might fall short in some capacity too.

Launchbury's absence will put pressure elsewhere because his workrate. His replacement will have to match, that or bring something else to the role and make sure others fill in for the work Launchbury would do.

Well Wood is a twisted ankle away from providing some with their ideal pack! Know that too little rest ups the chance of getting injured but some of these injuries are just plain bad luck!

Cole should be playing against sale this weekend in the LV cup.

Welly wrote:Cole should be playing against sale this weekend in the LV cup.

That's great news Welly, hopefully he'll come back strong

Launchbury's absence will put pressure elsewhere because his workrate. His replacement will have to match, that or bring something else to the role and make sure others fill in for the work Launchbury would do..

Rugyfan,
Attwood will bring a whole lot more physicality and carrying. He will be offensive in the tackle etc...knocking people back like Lawes does.
I also think Attwood has a good work rate.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Rugyfan,
Attwood will bring a whole lot more physicality and carrying. He will be offensive in the tackle etc...knocking people back like Lawes does.
I also think Attwood has a good work rate.

I had another look at the 2012 match on YouTube. Launchbury had a great game but so did Parling. We beat the All Blacks at the breakdown despite having what seemed like a lightweight pack. Tuilagi's magic broke open the second half but the pressure and confidence came from the forwards.

Afterwards, I recall the All Blacks wanting clarity on the breakdown, because they thought the ref didn't blow England illegalities where New Zealand had decided not to compete for the ball. That's a fair question to ask, but the video I watched had NZ commentary. In the run up to Tuilagi's interception try, a mass of England players had been penalized for going off their feet but Justin Marshall sympathized with them, pointing out it was almost inevitable when New Zealand players had pulled back, expecting to lose the contest.

England got a lot wrong in that 2012 match. All our backs kicked too deep, and one misplaced kick le to a try. In the only real chance for either side in the first half, Ashton mishandled a pass from Goode which might have led to a try. Barrett and Tuilagi gave NZ too many chances to stop their try. In 2012, it didn't matter, but I suspect this All Blacks side might have snuffed it out.

What we got perfectly right was our timing. The Fortress Twickenham crowd only really becomes important when it gets caught up in the moment and reinforces the impact of crucial plays. The tries were crucial but our breakdown success was the real inspiration.

On the injury front, it appears Dan Cole is making his comeback this weekend against Sale. Good news all round and lets hope he's fighting fit come Jan for 6Ns selection.

I know Launchbury is due back in 8 weeks so will be available for 6Ns but what about the other forwards who are injured? Corbisiero and Mako? Slater?

It is good news that Dan Cole is making a come back this week end. but i do hope they do not rush him back into the England set up too early.

It will be his first game, he needs time to get back in the game.