Ireland v Australia 22 Nov 2014: Dog v Cat: Ali V Foreman: Beauty v Beast, Xavier v Wolfman

First topic message reminder :

Have they ever met?
Sure they have.  And they're meeting each other now every second of every day in the lead up to the weekend's encounter - Schmidt even dreaming tactics whilst asleep at night, as there are not nearly enough hours in an atomic-clock week for him.  A meeting of brainwaves as one tries to look into the other's head and plan victory or defeat.

Schmidt doesn't rate the number 3.  Neither does Cheika.  But Cheika will still want the number back out of a sense of pride  He got no time for Ranking nonsense but he'll take it as his pound of flesh anyway given that the rules of the game forbid real flesh being taken.

Schmidt is the scientist; birdlike, almost timid, edgy and nervous when tension grows.  Cheika is the brick wall that needs no door to make a space for itself in a fight.  He has a nice smile, especially when he's happy, and that's usually when his fingers are around someone's neck and squeezing

Schmidt is considered pedantic, perfecting and getting on for being an infuriating perfectionist.  That can often be a problem as the word has noting to do with achieving perfection and everything to do with simply never being satisfied.  Perfectionism can often cloud the path to an easier fulfilling life.  Schmidt is driven but I don't think he'll ever find peace.

Cheika seems more like a company CEO.  Goals adopted, timeframes given, pie charts done, costs analysed, work done, work done, work redone with shouts and screams to make people listen and goals achieved.  Next project.  First project forgotten, yesterday's news.  Little genuine emotion for the victory or the initial goal that rapidly sinks into his history and falls into his junkbox.  
Schmidt wants to win - yes - but he wants to play chess.  Cheika just wants results.

And of course both coached Leinster.  One began the journey but had a temperament that wasn't conducive to a long partnership with the players.  Schmidt continued the journey and honed it but also had a temperament that didn't seem to want the relationship to last long.
This will be a brief encounter for both men - just the way they like it.  Brief encounter but the makings of a very long day for both sets of fans.

LOL I know that Guns I'm saying that I'll only get to watch a bit of the first half.

Oh right. In the Aviva there are TVs in the bars that show the games. Maybe the MS will have one so you could watch the game there right up to your own KO but yes the scheduling is bad.

On the first weekend Wales v Oz was on the same time as NZ v Eng. That was bizzare.

GunsGerms wrote:
On the first weekend Wales v Oz was on the same time as NZ v Eng. That was bizzare.

Guns,

That was because TV demands it I guess one was on the Beeb other Sky. Was like it a fair few years back when England done a deal with Sky for their home 6 Nations matches.

Surely Sky and BBC would get more viewers if two of the top games didnt clash? Would it not be in their own interest to do what the French do and have it in the evening for example?

GunsGerms wrote:Surely Sky and BBC would get more viewers if two of the top games didnt clash? Would it not be in their own interest to do what the French do and have it in the evening for example?

You'd think so wouldn't you

Wallabies team to play Ireland
1. James Slipper
2. Saia Fainga’a
3. Sekope Kepu
4. Sam Carter
5. Rob Simmons
6. Luke Jones
7. Michael Hoopah
8. Ben McCalman
9. Nick Phipps
10. Bernard Foley
11. Henry Speight
12. Matt Toomua
13. Tevita Kuridrani
14. Adam Ashley-Cooper
15. Israel Folau

Replacements*
James Hanson, Tetera Faulkner, Benn Robinson, Ben Alexander, James Horwill, Will Skelton, Jake Schatz, Will Genia, Quade Cooper, Rob Horne, Kurtley Beale

*Three to be omitted.

Good to see Luke Jones get a run. He is really a lock, but I think Cheika wants to see what he can do on the side of the scrum and it adds t his line out options.

The independent this morning seem to think Olding won't be in the squad at all.

Confirmed as he's starting for Ulster. So much for form and excitement.

Going by all the clues, this looks like the squad.

1 McGrath
2 Best
3 Ross
4 Toner
5 POC
6 POM
7 Ruddock
8 Heaslip
9 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Zebo
12 D'Arcy
13 Henshaw
14 Bowe
15 R Kearney

subs

Kilcoyne
Ah You
Cronin
Foley
O'Donnell
Madigan
Reddan
Jones

I am really looking forward to this match, I think this is the clash of the weekend without doubt.

Wouldn't be surprised to see Jones in for Zebo with Zebo on the bench.

JmD wrote:The independent this morning seem to think Olding won't be in the squad at all.

Ah I love mind games! Ireland send Olding out to face the media and talk about the potential of his starting. He is picked for Ulster. Australia send Quade Cooper and Will Genia out to face the media- halfbacks selected? Phipps and Foley.

Both sets of coaches are throwing out red herrings and trying to keep the others guessing.

Submachine wrote:Wouldn't be surprised to see Jones in for Zebo with Zebo on the bench.

Id say Zebo will start because Gilroy didnt really grab his chance and Jones is a fullback. However, Zebo has a lot of work to do to be a nailed on starter.

Pat Lam mentioned on against the head that Doug Howlet described Zebo as a very talented guy but someone who needs to improve his work rate considerably before he is the finished article. Have to say I agree with that and while he is showing positive signs in the November series he does still seem to lose focus for periods.

Biltong wrote:I am really looking forward to this match, I think this is the clash of the weekend without doubt.

Yep this has the makings of an epic if it gets pumping early.  It mightn't always be one for the people who like their rugby pretty but it has the promise of a good boxing match with loads of crowd involvement.

Notch wrote:

JmD wrote:The independent this morning seem to think Olding won't be in the squad at all.

Ah I love mind games! Ireland send Olding out to face the media and talk about the potential of his starting. He is picked for Ulster. Australia send Quade Cooper and Will Genia out to face the media- halfbacks selected? Phipps and Foley.

Both sets of coaches are throwing out red herrings and trying to keep the others guessing.

Its gas how they are trying to waste eachothers time reviewing players who arent playing.

cheika also hinted that he would rest Folau for this game. Too funny.

Marmion not in the Connacht squad for the weekend.


It looks like the weather will be good on saturday.

Hard luck on Olding not being in the starting XV, let alone the squad, thought he impressed more than D'Arcy vs Georgia, and he definitely offers more of a threat with ball in hand. Olding is on the rise and the D'Arcy is raging against the light, backing the wrong horse IMO. Not too much of an issue though..

Hmmm, so the poll at the top has 21 votes Ireland to 7 votes Australia. 66% going Ireland in a draw-no-bet scenario! Think I'll need to try and reign back in this bandwagon.

Notch wrote:

JmD wrote:The independent this morning seem to think Olding won't be in the squad at all.

Ah I love mind games! Ireland send Olding out to face the media and talk about the potential of his starting. He is picked for Ulster. Australia send Quade Cooper and Will Genia out to face the media- halfbacks selected? Phipps and Foley.

Both sets of coaches are throwing out red herrings and trying to keep the others guessing.

I don't think Cheika will be concerned in the slightest, he's more than familiar with D'Arcy.

It's just making their video analysts work harder.

I'm pretty unfazed to be honest, I think Olding has been training at 12 with Ireland this week and he'll benefit from that meanwhile it's exciting for Ulster because he's getting a third game in a row at 15 and he has become one of the most dangerous options we have in that position. 3 tries in 2 games since Ireland released him to start there against the Dragons.

Sure the Dragons and Georgia aren't the toughest opponents but he's very good at picking brilliant lines from deep (as we saw for his try) and he can enter the line from 15 as a really handy playmaker (as we saw for Jones' first try). So getting to see him play 15 for Ulster again is very exciting.

Team as expected

Best in.
Darcy and Henshaw in centre

profitius wrote:Going by all the clues, this looks like the squad.

1 McGrath
2 Best
3 Ross
4 Toner
5 POC
6 POM
7 Ruddock
8 Heaslip
9 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Zebo
12 D'Arcy
13 Henshaw
14 Bowe
15 R Kearney

subs

Kilcoyne
Ah You
Cronin
Foley
O'Donnell
Madigan
Reddan
Jones

Spot on

Rory Best at 2 only change in the forwards.
Gordon D'Arcy at 12 only change in the backs.

Dave Foley on the bench.

If you were as ridiculously, incredibly biased towards our Ulster players as BBC NI and as sensationalist as the Irish Independent you could write a headline like;

Best Back But Ireland Leave Out Best Back!
Ulster Ace Olding set for Ospreys Encounter

I am very bored right now.

If you were Munstercentric

Overworked Zebo forced to play again

Connachtians

Only on the bench, Ah You serious?

Leinsterous

Disgraceful!!! No Heino available in Aviva

I think the low/high point of BBC NI bias recently was when they interviewed Ian Madigan after the Georgia game and most of the clip they featured was the guy asking Madigan what he thinks about Stuart Olding

Dont worry RTE are quite biased towards Leinster and Munster in fairness.

This time last year the Aussies were getting ready to get hammered in Krystal. Wonder what they are up to now?

I truly hope that D'Arcy has a god game against the Aussies. I felt he was one of Ireland's weakest players against Georgia. I have said for many years that I feel he is past his best and that Ireland's management had failed in not bringing younger players through earlier. Not D'Arcy's fault he is selected but I am not sure if he is up to the task anymore...

He is a God alright. You are right there.

Nachos Jones wrote:I truly hope that D'Arcy has a god game against the Aussies. I felt he was one of Ireland's weakest players against Georgia. I have said for many years that I feel he is past his best and that Ireland's management had failed in not bringing younger players through earlier. Not D'Arcy's fault he is selected but I am not sure if he is up to the task anymore...

I'd say your in the minority there. Haven't heard anyone else express concern over darcy

Submachine wrote:If you were Munstercentric

Overworked Zebo forced to play again

Connachtians

Only on the bench, Ah You serious?

Leinsterous

Disgraceful!!! No Heino available in Aviva

Nachos Jones wrote: I have said for many years that I feel he is past his best

15 bloody years you been saying that, Nachos! He was only out of nappies when you began saying you hope the lad never grew up to like rugby coz it was certain from the way he drank from his bottle that he wouldn't make a good one

People get confused because D'Arcy is definitely past it in attack. But come the big games his defence and his breakdown skills make up for that in a big way.

I'm a big Olding fan- and I mean very, very big- but there's no doubt a guy who offers little with the ball but its incredibly efficient without it is going to offer more to this team than the guy who is great in attack but not up to the same standard without the ball. How can Olding be prepared for the physicality and the intensity he'd be expected to bring to that breakdown area and the tackle area without playing a test? The closest challenge he's had was Toulons centres and he didn't do enough there. I'm not saying its not close- I would rather have seen Olding on the bench and Felix Jones on Zebos wing so we had the option of bringing on his attacking class in the last quarter. But D'Arcy shades it because to win this we need to ruin their breakdown, that'll lay the foundation. And with Sexton being so good in attack there isn't so much pressure on 12 to create. Another big factor in picking defence over attack is the Schmidt 'power plays', which can bring you scores at key moments even when you're on the back foot.

If all that sounds conservative, I don't really care. I don't want champagne rugby and a loss, I want a win and I think we go for it any way we can get it. I think that come the Six Nations the countdown on D'Arcys career will have begun. If either Luke Marshall or Jared Payne were fit for this match he probably would not be in the team right now. The other options are only going to grow in stature over the next few months and he will have to be very, very good to hold them off.

I do think our centre partnership is slightly weaker than against South Africa, Henshaw will be really tested defensively in this match, but with Rory Best back our tight five is stronger in every department.

Notch wrote:People get confused because D'Arcy is definitely past it in attack. But come the big games his defence and his breakdown skills make up for that in a big way.

I'm a big Olding fan- and I mean very, very big- but there's no doubt a guy who offers little with the ball but its incredibly efficient without it is going to offer more to this team than the guy who is great in attack but not up to the same standard without the ball. How can Olding be prepared for the physicality and the intensity he'd be expected to bring to that breakdown area and the tackle area without playing a test? The closest challenge he's had was Toulons centres and he didn't do enough there. I'm not saying its not close- I would rather have seen Olding on the bench and Felix Jones on Zebos wing so we had the option of bringing on his attacking class in the last quarter. But D'Arcy shades it because to win this we need to ruin their breakdown, that'll lay the foundation. And with Sexton being so good in attack there isn't so much pressure on 12 to create. Another big factor in picking defence over attack is the Schmidt 'power plays', which can bring you scores at key moments even when you're on the back foot.

If all that sounds conservative, I don't really care. I don't want champagne rugby and a loss, I want a win and I think we go for it any way we can get it. I think that come the Six Nations the countdown on D'Arcys career will have begun. If either Luke Marshall or Jared Payne were fit for this match he probably would not be in the team right now. The other options are only going to grow in stature over the next few months and he will have to be very, very good to hold them off.

I do think our centre partnership is slightly weaker than against South Africa, Henshaw will be really tested defensively in this match, but with Rory Best back our tight five is stronger in every department.

Except the pace and ball carrying departments.

D'Arcy has shown in the last few years that his tackling isn't up to it any more, the defence argument is almost entirely worn away. His breakdown work is solid thanks to being low to the ground, but it's not as if he's anywhere near the level BOD was in that department. My prediction for Saturday is that he won't play well but Ireland will still win it thanks to the pack.

Submachine wrote:

Notch wrote:People get confused because D'Arcy is definitely past it in attack. But come the big games his defence and his breakdown skills make up for that in a big way.

I'm a big Olding fan- and I mean very, very big- but there's no doubt a guy who offers little with the ball but its incredibly efficient without it is going to offer more to this team than the guy who is great in attack but not up to the same standard without the ball. How can Olding be prepared for the physicality and the intensity he'd be expected to bring to that breakdown area and the tackle area without playing a test? The closest challenge he's had was Toulons centres and he didn't do enough there. I'm not saying its not close- I would rather have seen Olding on the bench and Felix Jones on Zebos wing so we had the option of bringing on his attacking class in the last quarter. But D'Arcy shades it because to win this we need to ruin their breakdown, that'll lay the foundation. And with Sexton being so good in attack there isn't so much pressure on 12 to create. Another big factor in picking defence over attack is the Schmidt 'power plays', which can bring you scores at key moments even when you're on the back foot.

If all that sounds conservative, I don't really care. I don't want champagne rugby and a loss, I want a win and I think we go for it any way we can get it. I think that come the Six Nations the countdown on D'Arcys career will have begun. If either Luke Marshall or Jared Payne were fit for this match he probably would not be in the team right now. The other options are only going to grow in stature over the next few months and he will have to be very, very good to hold them off.

I do think our centre partnership is slightly weaker than against South Africa, Henshaw will be really tested defensively in this match, but with Rory Best back our tight five is stronger in every department.

Except the pace and ball carrying departments.

We're still talking about hookers right? Because those carries are 5% of his game, the cherry on top, whilst the other 95% is the unglamorous things he has to do to have a good game. We're better off in the lineout, scrum, breakdown, tackle, maul... Cronin is a good player. But my god he is not good in the scrum. Very poor at striking for the ball. The extras don't mean much without the core skills to back them up. I would have probably preferred to see Strauss on the bench but obviously Cronin can have impact in wide channels. With it being Australia, we can probably afford him coming on but if I thought for a second our scrum was likely to be under pressure, I wouldn't have him.

JmD wrote:D'Arcy has shown in the last few years that his tackling isn't up to it any more, the defence argument is almost entirely worn away.

I partially agree with the first part, he's not a big hitter, but he is still our best defensive 12 because defence is about reading the game, positioning and most importantly communication not just tackling on it own.

If Payne was at 13 we wouldn't need D'Arcy at all. His reading of the game in defence against South Africa was superlative. He's injured, it happens. Henshaw moves out to the trickier 13 channel. Having a good communicator and organiser inside him essential from defensive point of view.

Notch wrote:

Submachine wrote:

Notch wrote:People get confused because D'Arcy is definitely past it in attack. But come the big games his defence and his breakdown skills make up for that in a big way.

I'm a big Olding fan- and I mean very, very big- but there's no doubt a guy who offers little with the ball but its incredibly efficient without it is going to offer more to this team than the guy who is great in attack but not up to the same standard without the ball. How can Olding be prepared for the physicality and the intensity he'd be expected to bring to that breakdown area and the tackle area without playing a test? The closest challenge he's had was Toulons centres and he didn't do enough there. I'm not saying its not close- I would rather have seen Olding on the bench and Felix Jones on Zebos wing so we had the option of bringing on his attacking class in the last quarter. But D'Arcy shades it because to win this we need to ruin their breakdown, that'll lay the foundation. And with Sexton being so good in attack there isn't so much pressure on 12 to create. Another big factor in picking defence over attack is the Schmidt 'power plays', which can bring you scores at key moments even when you're on the back foot.

If all that sounds conservative, I don't really care. I don't want champagne rugby and a loss, I want a win and I think we go for it any way we can get it. I think that come the Six Nations the countdown on D'Arcys career will have begun. If either Luke Marshall or Jared Payne were fit for this match he probably would not be in the team right now. The other options are only going to grow in stature over the next few months and he will have to be very, very good to hold them off.

I do think our centre partnership is slightly weaker than against South Africa, Henshaw will be really tested defensively in this match, but with Rory Best back our tight five is stronger in every department.

Except the pace and ball carrying departments.

We're still talking about hookers right? Because those carries are 5% of his game, the cherry on top, whilst the other 95% is the unglamorous things he has to do to have a good game. We're better off in the lineout, scrum, breakdown, tackle, maul... Cronin is a good player. But my god he is not good in the scrum. Very poor at striking for the ball. The extras don't mean much without the core skills to back them up. I would have probably preferred to see Strauss on the bench but obviously Cronin can have impact in wide channels. With it being Australia, we can probably afford him coming on but if I thought for a second our scrum was likely to be under pressure, I wouldn't have him.

Look, you said he was better in every department and he clearly isn't. To say Cronin has no core skills is just childish really. You don't have to run another player down just because he plays in the same position as your favourite. I think Best is a better all round hooker but to say that Cronin can't scrummage and can only have an effect in wide chanels is just wrong. He did pretty well in the scrum and in the tight exchanges against South Africa and is not too far behind. Best has vastly imnproved his darts in the last couple of seasons but was left out of the original lions squad because at the time he couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo. Cronin has his wobbles but he has never had an entire season wobble. Glad to have Rory back but he is under pressure.

What side were you watching, Ireland's scrum was anhilliated by SA. Obviously it's not all down to Cronin but Best is undeniably a better hooker. Best is old school, he hooks, scrummages, throws, tackles and rucks better. Cronin is faster and more explosive, but frankly those qualities should be a bonus after the first 5 skills are met. His core skills aren't good enough yet for the top level.

Id say Cronin throws well enough. None of us have a clue in fairness re scrummaging so wont even comment on that but he does everything well. Best is much better at the breakdown and is a leader therefore a better player so great to see him back but no one is going to be particularly worried in any game if Cronin or Strauss have to step in at this stage IMO.

This is a tight one to call.
Cheika v Schmidt.....Ex Leinster v Ex Leinster.......mind games and second guessing abound.
I am certain that Joe has a plan laid out filled with flow charts and graphs on how to beat the Wallabies but it all comes down to how it's executed on the day.

Ireland by 5 I reckon......I never get these right and I am still on a high after the win over SA so who knows.

I have always wondered why the Australian rugby union boys chose the Wallaby over any of the other more macho and deadly animals they have down under. The box jellyfish or saltwater crocs would be more menacing don't you think?

You ever try to catch one, Pete? If so there's you're answer. If not, try it

Besides - The Box'a'Jellies ain't exactly got me shivering in me boots.

Hmmm............................ the Irish are being pensive. Thinking behind closed doors.
Omenous? - And for who?

Yeah but Wallabies are the cute, small and fluffy version of a kangaroo.
Rugby teams are named after lions, sharks and.......emmmm.......springboks which are also cute little creatures....ok what's with the cuteness SA and OZ?

the Australian bench is a bit odd :
16 James Hanson, 17 Tetera Faulkner, 18 Benn Robinson, 19 Will Skelton, 20 Jake Schatz, 21 Will Genia, 22 Quade Cooper, 23 Kurtley Beale

Skelton is a bit liability and cannot do the basics very well. I assume both him and Robinson will be on the pitch come the 60th minute so if Ireland are still fresh at the end of the 2H they could well earn a few penalties.
Beale form is a big question mark as well so having both him and cooper there is a bit of gamble.

Pete330v2 wrote:Yeah but Wallabies are the cute, small and fluffy version of a kangaroo.
Rugby teams are named after lions, sharks and.......emmmm.......springboks which are also cute little creatures....ok what's with the cuteness SA and OZ?

Deception?

We should give ourselves a name too.  But I guess we were waiting for the right era to happen, when hopefully we'd have been winning enough to justify a noble name.

So, we could call ourselves The Bulls (Ancient Irish cultural mythology deals a lot in Bulls and Cattle) - yeah, yeah...no Bullschmidt jokes please, they'll be considered cliched.

But because of my bias to all things equestrian - I'd call us The Stallions.

If we lose big time at the weekend, forget I ever posted this nonsense............ please.

My God you guys talk a lot of shoite, don't you?

Always so entertaining and amusing though.