Ireland v Australia 22 Nov 2014: Dog v Cat: Ali V Foreman: Beauty v Beast, Xavier v Wolfman

First topic message reminder :

Have they ever met?
Sure they have.  And they're meeting each other now every second of every day in the lead up to the weekend's encounter - Schmidt even dreaming tactics whilst asleep at night, as there are not nearly enough hours in an atomic-clock week for him.  A meeting of brainwaves as one tries to look into the other's head and plan victory or defeat.

Schmidt doesn't rate the number 3.  Neither does Cheika.  But Cheika will still want the number back out of a sense of pride  He got no time for Ranking nonsense but he'll take it as his pound of flesh anyway given that the rules of the game forbid real flesh being taken.

Schmidt is the scientist; birdlike, almost timid, edgy and nervous when tension grows.  Cheika is the brick wall that needs no door to make a space for itself in a fight.  He has a nice smile, especially when he's happy, and that's usually when his fingers are around someone's neck and squeezing

Schmidt is considered pedantic, perfecting and getting on for being an infuriating perfectionist.  That can often be a problem as the word has noting to do with achieving perfection and everything to do with simply never being satisfied.  Perfectionism can often cloud the path to an easier fulfilling life.  Schmidt is driven but I don't think he'll ever find peace.

Cheika seems more like a company CEO.  Goals adopted, timeframes given, pie charts done, costs analysed, work done, work done, work redone with shouts and screams to make people listen and goals achieved.  Next project.  First project forgotten, yesterday's news.  Little genuine emotion for the victory or the initial goal that rapidly sinks into his history and falls into his junkbox.  
Schmidt wants to win - yes - but he wants to play chess.  Cheika just wants results.

And of course both coached Leinster.  One began the journey but had a temperament that wasn't conducive to a long partnership with the players.  Schmidt continued the journey and honed it but also had a temperament that didn't seem to want the relationship to last long.
This will be a brief encounter for both men - just the way they like it.  Brief encounter but the makings of a very long day for both sets of fans.

Congratulations Ireland, that was an almighty performance.

YES!

Unbelievably tense. Unreal happy we won. And we played awful. That's the difference to previous matches where we would def have thrown it away... Australia are an excellent side.

Great to hear from POC.. "disappointing to let them back in". This team has matured hugely. Schmidt won't accept mediocrity and unnecessary mistakes. Great to see the players accepting this attitude and ready to improve.

Big huge worry from an Irish perspective. The set piece. This part of our game was brilliant when Plumtree was involved. It seems to have deteriorated since he left. Also our attack is poor. Not too happy despite the win.

True, feckless... but it was an epic defensive effort from your lads in the 2nd half.

So you've got 2 SH scalps in a row... saving the best for last next year, huh? Wish you well.

FecklessRogue wrote:Big huge worry from an Irish perspective. The set piece. This part of our game was brilliant when Plumtree was involved. It seems to have deteriorated since he left. Also our attack is poor. Not too happy despite the win.

Agreed. Scrum, lineout were terrible, maul wasn't its usual force. To be honest I don't know how we won that game. Australia were dominate in all elements of the match except our scramble defense was phenomenal at times. But I think they edged the breakdown, plus got some great calls from the ref (though there was one great counter ruck that Aus were penalised for that def was not a penalty). Half backs also had the edge. Really it was our kicking that kept us both in it, but also made it a hell of a lot closer then it should have been based on the first 20 mins

The Loaded Dog wrote:True, feckless... but it was an epic defensive effort from your lads in the 2nd half.

So you've got 2 SH scalps in a row... saving the best for last next year, huh? Wish you well.

Cheers Loaded Dog, Aussie fans amongst the best. You are def favorites to get out of your WC group, Cheika is crafting a very good team.

FecklessRogue wrote:Big huge worry from an Irish perspective. The set piece. This part of our game was brilliant when Plumtree was involved. It seems to have deteriorated since he left. Also our attack is poor. Not too happy despite the win.

Feckless take a happy pill! we have just smashed 2 Southern Hemisphere teams and 2 dam good teams at that

Your right especially regards line out as best can't throw but easily fixed with ronin or Duncan casey

Well done Ireland, I thought you would blow it after throwing away that 17pt lead

yep awesome win. Nice to confirm your ranking of 3 on the field. Said earlier that id we'd played hem firstup we'd have probably lost so we can be thankful we didn't meet.

Now show some consistency anddefend the 6N will ya?!

And don't wear Schmidt out too much...don't forget he's only a loaner!

Wow. Well done Ireland- great result.
Can't see England beating Ireland or Australia playing like that.

FecklessRogue wrote:Big huge worry from an Irish perspective. The set piece. This part of our game was brilliant when Plumtree was involved. It seems to have deteriorated since he left. Also our attack is poor. Not too happy despite the win.

Yup. Played badly but got over the line in the end. Much to work on but at least there are other options when the injured players come back.

Well that outlines who the best in Europe are.

Any illusions I had that england were improving and getting anywhere near ireland levels have been blown away.

Given their resources england are a disgrace. Ireland are bloody superb,

Glad all ye neutrals out there enjoyed the game - but god my heart was in overdrive in that second half. Having had a half hour walk home from the pub to reflect have to say Aus must be kicking themselves they lost that game after coming back from 17-0 down after 15 mins. Delighted to see POC make it plain it wasn't a great performance by our lads even though we won.

A lot of stuff to work on - scrum and lineout in particular. Love Besty but jeez his darts into the lineout are flaky to say the least. And it's a reflection of who's on the bench that Ross plays the whole Ggme (or most of it - did Ah You actually come on, Sky decided not to bother telling us who was coming on off the bench and was only when I saw Foley and Cronin on the pitch that I knew there had been changes). Also thought that apart from his goal kicks, that was Sexton's worst game for Ireland for years - most of his high kicks were way too long unlike Kearney's whose few high kicks were on the button, and he badly missed a tackle for Phipps second try work.

But the good pits - Kearney for his high fielding (ok I know we expect it by now) and that long drop attempt, Zebo apart from the flaky offload I †hought was good took his dry well and tackled well, Henshaw mostly very good. Though Madigan in the 20 or so minutes he was on was very good and will forgive him that awful poncy haircut. POC and the back row very good.

If we played that game again and Sexton kicked like he did to that Aussie back three then I think Aus would win. But hey we won and I'm a happy bunny - can you uncork that nice Barossa red my love!

Taylorman wrote:what on earth are the irish subs doing drills behind the oz goal line for? 8 or so in the goal area. Since when was that allowed?

Was at the game and the Aussie subs were doing it too.

Thought this game really highlighted are need for some ball carriers like SOB, Hendo, and Healy. I don't think Sexton would had to have kicked so much if we had had some more go forward ball. Great achievement from Ireland considering the injuries.

Seeing that Schmidt has gone for very precise and direct rugby, it's strange that Casey wasn't even in the squad. Could be Ireland's no.1 in the 6N if he continues like he is and Best and Cronin continue to make a hames of the line out.

Apparently Joe Schmidt was rushed to hospital with appendicitis after today's game, get well soon!

Hahaha Best doesn't throw well in one game and suddenly he is a liability, very good. He was one of the "best" players out there, not only in name!

BelfastDickVet wrote:Hahaha Best doesn't throw well in one game and suddenly he is a liability, very good.

Best has never been solid with his throwing! Superb in all other aspects

BlueMuff wrote:

BelfastDickVet wrote:Hahaha Best doesn't throw well in one game and suddenly he is a liability, very good.

Best has never been solid with his throwing! Superb in all other aspects

Funny that with ulster having one of the strongest lineout in the HEC over the last few seasons, Ireland's lineout was pretty strong with him during the 6 nations the last couple of years. Every hooker has his bad days, but a couple a poor throws, doesn't make a liability.

trebellbobaggins wrote:Well that outlines who the best in Europe are.

Any illusions I had that england were improving and getting anywhere near ireland levels have been blown away.

Given their resources england are a disgrace.  Ireland are bloody superb,

This.

At the same time I wouldn't mind seeing the Munster fella get a run, he has looked the part! Deserves a runout in green.

Thought that Ireland showed a true change of direction today. Not the one we would have hoped for. I think we all hoped that we would calmly and professionally prove our third place ranking with a cool dominance of the key areas. Instead we showed that we are made of some pretty tough stuff and can pull out some reall backs to the wall grit and concentration.

But lets be honest: 1) Australia were storming the gain-line for most of the match. 2) Ireland failed to get to grips with their own gameplan after their huge start. AND 3) Much of our set-piece looked very shaky and easily read.

Nonetheless, it's still a new dawn of sorts. 2 SH teams taken. Little or no surprise and hyperbole... and most of the team and players well aware that they can perform better and have great players still to come back. When could we ever have said that before.

The biggest contrast for me was listening to the difference between Paul O'Connell and Jamie Roberts at the end of their respective games. I recognised the tone of Jamie Roberts... it's the way Ireland sounded for many many years not so long ago. Glad we've moved on. (Sorry... not trying to have a go at the Welsh by any means!)

Was that the end of Gordon Darcys international career?

Congratulations Ireland - I thought you were going to storm it but Australia showed some real fight to get back into it. You had too much for em though and I think you have cemented your third place ranking myself.

Well done Ireland.. Poor ok' Joe nasty thing when it goes is the appendix

McGrath: Solid in the scrum and worked hard.
Best: Some excellent play in the loose as usual but his throwing wasn't good enough.
Ross: Tough day in the scrums for Ross. Is he past it now?
POC: MOTM and put in his usual workrate.
Toner: Wasn't at the races at all. I've stood up for him before but this was an awful game from him.
POM: Put in a good shift with some steals.
Ruddock: Worked hard but was a bit slow to the breakdown. 7 isn't his natural position
Heaslip: Worked hard but didn't do anything with the ball.

As a whole the pack didn't play well. Individually they were alright but as a unit they struggled at times. It was only in the second half when they tightened up the game, they played better.

Murray: He had a bad game. Worked hard but his usual accuracy left him down.
Sexton: Kicked his penalties well but another who had a bad game. Aimless kicking which was also inaccurate.
Zebo: Made a few mistakes which is a few too many. His intercepted offload changed the game.
D'Arcy: Offers very little. A great servant to Irish rugby but his time is well up now and there are other options.
Henshaw: Battled well and had a few good moments. Caught out once or twice but he is learning.
Bowe: Played well. As usual everything he did was done well.
Kearney: He had a good game and almost got that drop goal. He lacks creativity overall but deserves his place after 2 good performances this autumn.

The backs were outplayed. That was partly down to Australia putting them under a lot of pressure.


Ireland is in a good position now. Not playing well and still winning with plenty of players to come back in. I certainly wouldn' be getting carried away yet. They've moved up a level but other teams might now be starting to work them out. There are plenty of options out there for Schmit to explore so thats what I hope will happen for the 6 nations. Time to move past the obsession with experience.

Did anyone work out why the ref awarded the Australia wide receiver the ball after the Australian quarterback threw it to him?

Really bizarre decision and fairly consistently sh1t ref.

ME-109 wrote:Was that the end of Gordon Darcys international career?

It should be as he offers nothing now. No point being experienced if the body can't use it to good effect. As I said, great servant to Irish rubgy but in the ruthless world of sport, his time is up.

GunsGerms wrote:Did anyone work out why the ref awarded the Australia wide receiver the ball after the Australian quarterback threw it to him?

Really bizarre decision and fairly consistently sh1t ref.

Your own commentary team came back after halftime and said it wasn't a forward pass

They must have been drunk. Very strange call that one.

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Did anyone work out why the ref awarded the Australia wide receiver the ball after the Australian quarterback threw it to him?

Really bizarre decision and fairly consistently sh1t ref.

Your own commentary team came back after halftime and said it wasn't a forward pass

I got the impression Conor O'shea proved it was flat at half time using some technology or other.

We got pretty lucky because Bernard Foley left two gimmes on the park, those 4 points would have given them a 1 point win.

Sexton was top class today, without him i don't think we would have won

FecklessRogue wrote:Big huge worry from an Irish perspective. The set piece. This part of our game was brilliant when Plumtree was involved. It seems to have deteriorated since he left. Also our attack is poor. Not too happy despite the win.

Yep and yep.

Australia are box office for the lovely stuff, and the instinct, and the desire to work space with cool brains and fast touches + feet.

I'm happy we won against those fleet footed circumstances hitting us - but that's not a gameplan (OURS) to keep us winning in either the 6N or indeed get where we want to get in the WC - which ideally would be a semi-final at least.  
Plumtree is missed and, yes, unless Schmidt is saving up his biggest surprises for that WC, for now we're very limited in attack.

It's back to old Ireland really in being far too attritional a gameplan we play.  It's a whole lot of risk of injury to use such fierce collision tactics time and time again to either get in front or keep there.  We don't have the player pool to keep up with this if it continues.  Look at the number of guys we had verging on concussion through the game.  This constant hit game v evasive game will risk us losing a gamut of central players just when we can't be without them

So, we need to really develop more cuteness in attack and sorry, put we certainly need quicker ball from Murray when backs need space to work.  Not picking on him!  He's great, he's great, he's great.... big physical guy and all that...but he needs to think quicker at the back of rucks/scrums to make anything attacking we might have up our sleeves doable.

So like Feckless..... I should be happier, but winning these games just keeps exposing how much work we still have to do to push a side as good as Australia off our back.  You can't just expect to keep winning tight games.  Fate won't keep giving you the benefit of the doubt all the time.  You have to begin to want some space between the scores by the end - and that'll need much more invention than impact defending alone.  I understand 9th to 3rd is a pretty big move after a year and a bit of rugby.  I know we've come a long way in stabilising the inconsistency that dogged us before Schmidt.  But we all see how much still needs to be done...or corrected.

But, Joe is a smart man and knows about a more incisive game, so perhaps he's just developing more creative ways behind the scenes as he concentrates on solidifying the defensive core.

I hope!

Congratulations to the team (one loss this year to England?) and congrats to sick Joe (hope it isn't serious obviously).  
And hats off to Australia too, who didn't give us an inch of an opportunity to play much of anything except defence; and for giving us what we all knew they would give, hard edged beautiful rugby threatening all over the place, and the constant threat of heartattacks from me

I don't mean to pick on Murray but ill mention him anyway. Funny you didn't mention Darcy who had a mare and a half. We won because of Irish qualities not too dissimilar to the grand slam year..endeavour and pain.

When it comes to running rugby we might have got the wrong kiwi from Clermont. But hey we are winning and Schmidt is doing an excellent job with the players he has. Don't demean yourself by trying to make excuses for our very Irish style of play and saying things like its Murray ( but it isn't) when it comes down to our coach, who is showing himself to be a pragmatist.

Happy with the win but disappointed with the performance,we should be showing more invention in attack.I don't know if it's because we're missing Healy and SoB but our forwards aren't generating enough good ball for our backs to use.

We have established a very solid base to work from but I think we're capable of a lot more.Our set piece is a worry but for now I'll just be happy with the win and the fact that I backed Ireland in the 2 games.

profitius wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Was that the end of Gordon Darcys international career?

It should be as he offers nothing now. No point being experienced if the body can't use it to good effect. As I said, great servant to Irish rubgy but in the ruthless world of sport, his time is up.

I defended him before the game but I have to agree.

That was a long, tiring day with the round trip to Dublin and I'm just in the door but feck it it was a brilliant day! The atmosphere in the new Lansdowne Road has never been better.

ME-109 wrote:I don't mean to pick on Murray but ill mention him anyway. Funny you didn't mention Darcy who had a mare and a half. We won because of Irish qualities not too dissimilar to the grand slam year..endeavour and pain.

When it comes to running rugby we might have got the wrong kiwi from Clermont. But hey we are winning and Schmidt is doing an excellent job with the players he has. Don't demean yourself by trying to make excuses for our very Irish style of play and saying things like its Murray ( but it isn't) when it comes down to our coach, who is showing himself to be a pragmatist.

"I'll mention him anytime I damn well please" might be a better deal on that one ME.

I've mentioned that aspect of his game before tonight.  I'll keep mentioning it whenever the thought comes to me after a game.

You don't have an effective backs game or countergame unless you're quick enough there.  Period.  You tell me he's quick enough there when oftentimes we need to get greedy teams off our f**king back as they hit us and hit us and hit us and f**king hit us again, and I'll say you're being creative with the 'truth'.  

So onwards and upwards.  Nobody mention names of players that can't be mentioned lest the guys who snarl at name poppers pop up.... but Monday or Tomorrow will have a bunch of names, won't they?  Nobody will be holding back.  You've already mentioned two more already.  Welcome to the club ME - you know the rules well.

Notch wrote:

profitius wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Was that the end of Gordon Darcys international career?

It should be as he offers nothing now. No point being experienced if the body can't use it to good effect. As I said, great servant to Irish rubgy but in the ruthless world of sport, his time is up.

I defended him before the game but I have to agree.

That was a long, tiring day with the round trip to Dublin and I'm just in the door but feck it it was a brilliant day! The atmosphere in the new Lansdowne Road has never been better.

Olding has to play

SecretFly wrote:

ME-109 wrote:I don't mean to pick on Murray but ill mention him anyway. Funny you didn't mention Darcy who had a mare and a half. We won because of Irish qualities not too dissimilar to the grand slam year..endeavour and pain.

When it comes to running rugby we might have got the wrong kiwi from Clermont. But hey we are winning and Schmidt is doing an excellent job with the players he has. Don't demean yourself by trying to make excuses for our very Irish style of play and saying things like its Murray ( but it isn't) when it comes down to our coach, who is showing himself to be a pragmatist.

"I'll mention him anytime I damn well please" might be a better deal on that one ME.

I've mentioned that aspect of his game before tonight.  I'll keep mentioning it whenever the thought comes to me after a game.

You don't have an effective backs game or countergame unless you're quick enough there.  Period.  You tell me he's quick enough there when oftentimes we need to get greedy teams off our f**king back as they hit us and hit us and hit us and f**king hit us again, and I'll say you're being creative with the 'truth'.  

So onwards and upwards.  Nobody mention names of players that can't be mentioned lest the guys who snarl at name poppers pop up.... but Monday or Tomorrow will have a bunch of names, won't they?  Nobody will be holding back.  You've already mentioned two more already.  Welcome to the club ME - you know the rules well.

You will mention him as it suits your argument (whatever that is). It's Murray or TOL or something to do with the service. Nothing to do with everything else outside. It's always interesting the few times your facade slips to being a mere mortal like the rest of us.

Anyhow any comments on the style of play? You were banging on about the type of rugby someone like Schmidt would bring. Seems very kidneyesque in his first year no?

Should we have had a penalty try at the end of the first half.Zebo was perfectly placed to catch a cross field kick and Folau knocked it on one handed,he was never going to catch it.

No, I disagree, I think we have more of a technical approach than under Kidney. As in more complex set plays, 'power plays', much more variation from game to game, more tactics tailored to each opponent specifically. The overall game plan was quite similar today but I believe that we could equally pursue other game plans quite quickly whereas where we went wrong under Kidney is we couldn't quite transition from that basic game plan. Look at the difference between say the Italy game at home or last weeks game and today, quite a large level of variation from opponent to opponent. What is the same in 2009 and today is this; nobody gives a feck about 'pragmatism' when we are winning!!

This was actually one of the worse games for Ireland tactically of late but the character and organisation carried us through. But you have to give credit to the Australian rush defence which was incredibly well organised and their line speed and physicality really stymied our attack completely. A lot of those up and unders we were given little option but to go for the kick because they killed our momentum in attack.

I know the Aussies aren't into patting themselves on the back after losses of any description but the hard physical edge Cheika has already brought to the table makes me think they've already improved, and I would be quietly confident that they are odds on favourites to top their World Cup group and possibly win the whole shebang. It's not where they are now, its where they are in a year and the influence of Cheika is just the perfect thing for them right now. I was impressed by them today. They could be just beginning to realise some of that massive potential, so everyone else look out.

I would now like to see Olding ahead of D'Arcy who has had two very poor games in a row and we can no longer pick him on his combination with BOD either. But the partnership I would like to see get first crack at the Six Nations is the one that started against South Africa and I do believe we would have seen them again but for injury.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Should we have had a penalty try at the end of the first half.Zebo was perfectly placed to catch a cross field kick and Folau knocked it on one handed,he was never going to catch it.

Thought so, but I wouldn't put anything past Folau!

ME-109 wrote:
You will mention him as it suits your argument (whatever that is). It's Murray or TOL or something to do with the service. Nothing to do with everything else outside. It's always interesting the few times your facade slips to being a mere mortal like the rest of us.

Anyhow any comments on the style of play? You were banging on about the type of rugby someone like Schmidt would bring. Seems very kidneyesque in his first year no?

As you noted the 'name' you must have slid over the content of the post he was in, ME.  I don't need an ME teleprompter to speak the truth - got there before the question.

So go back to my post and you'll see the reference to Old Ireland - attritional rugby, defence centric.  How clear do I have to be? As for the faced slipping.  
Nope, as you pointed out - I'm consistent.  Murray, TOL, Stringer, Reddan.  Yeah, you hear me mention scrum halves a lot because I personally feel they can be more centrally important figures than even the considered principal game driver of flyhalf.
Yeah, I look at them closely.  Others can keep their eyes on the flankers, or tightheads or the '7.5's (who were very fashionable a few years back!), or the fullbacks.  I'll keep to the backs and the ball they can often be starved of

Look none of us are overly thrilled with the performance today but surely that shows immense progress, the last time we beat Australia the players quite literally thought they were on their way to a World Cup final.

Secondly that was a top class Australian team today. OK the penalty count went in our favour but I honestly believe there are only 2 other teams in the world who could have lived with Australia today. England are in trouble IMO.

theslosty wrote:Look none of us are overly thrilled with the performance today but surely that shows immense progress, the last time we beat Australia the players quite literally thought they were on their way to a World Cup final.

Secondly that was a top class Australian team today. OK the penalty count went in our favour but I honestly believe there are only 2 other teams in the world who could have lived with Australia today. England are in trouble IMO.

Both correct, losty.  Both acknowledged already by me.  

But I won't be too concerned that my mood is probably closer to the players and the coaches.  A win but very much a get-out-of-jail card too.  A lot still to do.  No over-happiness, which is I suppose a good sign.
Don't think we have a God given right to win against SH sides, still won't be expecting to win against them in the future either, but we'll all try to see where those winning percentages might be if we tighten up here and there.  Thus the discussions that will undoubtedly go into next week and beyond.

[quote="profitius"
Zebo: Made a few mistakes which is a few too many. His intercepted offload changed the game.
[/quote]

Just on that 'mistake' - Sexton called for the offload (he was attempting a looping move).

Kearney & Toner should have made their tackles.

Sin é wrote:[quote="profitius"
Zebo: Made a few mistakes which is a few too many. His intercepted offload changed the game.

Just on that 'mistake' - Sexton called for the offload (he was attempting a looping move).

Kearney & Toner should have made their tackles.

[/quote]

Too obvious sin. Not acceptable with regards to zebo. Second highest tackler and none missed and how many effing rucks he resourced I lost count

Edit..prof is an ex Christians head so has no time for people from pres...its like guns with Madigan or Luke Fitz

ME-109 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

profitius wrote:
Zebo: Made a few mistakes which is a few too many. His intercepted offload changed the game.

Just on that 'mistake' - Sexton called for the offload (he was attempting a looping move).

Kearney & Toner should have made their tackles.

Too obvious sin. Not acceptable with regards to zebo. Second highest tackler and none missed and how many effing rucks he resourced I lost count

Edit..prof is an ex Christians head so has no time for people from pres...its like guns with Madigan or Luke Fitz

Not christians or pres, ME


Stats are out. http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/208369.html

D'Arcy made 3 attempted tackles and missed 3! POM was highest with 17 (missing 1).
The forwards made 20m with ball in hand in total!! Shocking stat.
Ireland kicked 34 times which is 30% of the amount of passes (113).
Australia kicked it 25 times which is 14% of their passes (198)
Ireland's lineout success was 69% compared to Australias 91%.

The stats show we are lacking carriers from 1-8. Healy, Henderson and O'Brien especially were missed.

Have to say I thought O'Mahoney was superb. I have to say I think Zebo is slightly harshly done by. The offload was marginal and it's a bit of luck that went Oz way. His tackle stats were exceptional and there were one or two absolute gems in those tackles too. He was a minimum of 8/10 for me. Bowe too. The defence of both was brilliant.

Bests darts weren't great but I'm not worried about it. That's his first mixed day under Joe. Let's not forget our lineout was the best of the 6Ns. If he continues to struggle with ulster between now and the 6N we have some great looking options anyway.

I have to agree on D'arce. He will need to show some serious form or else be passed by Payne firstly and the other younger guys, not least Madigan.